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Conservative America, Progressive Europe
On the train to New York last week, I had the displeasure of sitting in front of a rather loud, abrasive woman who, apropos of nothing, lectured/harangued her unfortunate seatmate—a pleasant and soft-spoken Nigerian businessman—about her country's hideous history of bigotry and genocide. America was full of misinformed rubes entranced by American Idol, we are congenitally, irredeemably racist, blah, blah. It was rather obvious, she argued, that Americans wouldn't ever pull the lever for Barack Obama, and for this she profusely apologized. (She actually apologized.) The Nigerian smiled politely. (Actually, in the latest Pew Global Attitudes poll shows that, just behind the Japanese, the Nigerians were most positive towards America.) Then came the rather predictable speech on America's damaged reputation and her deep embarrassment in disclosing her nationality when travelling in Europe, a continent, she sighed, that was light years ahead of us on issues like race, immigration, and various social issues like gay rights and the death penalty.
Well, no. Sure, places like Sweden, Holland, and Norway are to the left of America on many social issues, and many are far more supportive of gay marriage and civil unions than Americans. But there are vast differences in European attitudes on such questions, as evidenced by the much more socially conservative views held by Poles, Italians, Greeks, and Portuguese. Progressive Europe, of course, is only progressive in those progressive enclaves, mostly in Northern and Western Europe. In December 2006, for instance, a Eurobarometer poll reported that "only 32% of Europeans feel that homosexual couples should be allowed to adopt children throughout Europe" and "44% of EU citizens agree that such marriages should be allowed throughout Europe." In Greece, that number was only 15 percent, in Italy 31 percent.
So the day after the train lecture on why "Europe" will be disappointed by our inevitable anti-Obama racism, I saw this tale of superior European progressivism in The Guardian:
Sixty-eight per cent of Italians, fuelled by often inflammatory attacks by the new rightwing government, want to see all of the country's 150,000 Gypsies, many of them Italian citizens, expelled, according to an opinion poll.
The survey, published as mobs in Naples burned down Gypsy camps this week, revealed that the majority also wanted all Gypsy camps in Italy to be demolished.
|5.19.08 @ 1:45PM|#
the majority also wanted all Gypsy camps in Italy to be demolished
Cue Borat jokes.
Bingo|5.19.08 @ 1:46PM|#
Europe is as racist if not more so than the States. The difference is that our racists are frequently backwoods yokels missing teeth and their racists have accents and higher culinary standards.
|5.19.08 @ 1:46PM|#
Nigerians love us because we're so helpful in assisting them to obtain their rightful inheritances from the late President Mebeki.
joe|5.19.08 @ 1:48PM|#
Hell, yeah, they hate them some Roma in Europe.
I had a very clever professor in grad school. She used English
prejudice against the Roma to teach about how racism worked. It
allowed her to teach the subject matter without the students'
defense-mechanism kicking in and shutting their brains off.
|5.19.08 @ 1:49PM|#
You know, for all the virtues of Europe (they really do seem to care more about taking care of the environment) I've never gotten the impression that Europeans were much more or less bigoted than Americans. Although my experience is limited, they seem much like most of the inhabitants of the industrialized world. They have stereotypes and prejudices but the vast majority of people will treat you decently.
Rhywun|5.19.08 @ 1:49PM|#
much more socially conservative views held by Poles,
Italians, Greeks, and Portuguese
I.e. the same countries that are still super Catholic/Orthodox. I
am shocked.
Abdul|5.19.08 @ 1:57PM|#
Europe is as racist if not more so than the
States.
Yeah, think of the number of times during a major sporting event in
America the audience throws bananas on the field if there's a
person of African descent on the opposing team. Yet that's routine
in Europe.
Europeans over here should be ashamed and pretend to be
Americans.
Rhywun|5.19.08 @ 1:57PM|#
PS. I'm referring mainly to the attitudes toward gays reflected in the quoted poll. I'm aware that the Roma are pretty universally despised across Europe - racism and bigotry seem to be less affected by region or religion.
|5.19.08 @ 2:00PM|#
You know, for all the virtues of Europe (they really do seem
to care more about taking care of the environment)
I wouldn't be too sure about that.
What are their current emissions standards? I distinctly recall
absolutely godawful air quality in several major Euro cities when I
visited there, although that was quite awhile ago.
I also recall having to flee the beach in Nice because of raw
sewage drifting along the shore.
And let's not forget the environmental holocaust that the Soviets
and their Eastern European puppets perpetrated. They're Europeans,
too, and I doubt Putin and his buttboys in Russia give any more of
a crap about the environment than Brezhnev did.
A society can afford to make sacrifices to protect the environment
in direct proportion to how wealthy it is. As the Euros have gotten
richer, I have no doubt they have done more for the
environment.
Abdul|5.19.08 @ 2:01PM|#
Rhywun,
Poland is pretty Catholic, but the Italians and Portugese are only
Catholic in the historical sense, most don't attend church or
subscribe to church doctrines.
Abdul|5.19.08 @ 2:02PM|#
I also recall having to flee the beach in Nice because of
raw sewage drifting along the shore.
I hate the Frenchs as much as anyone else, but calling them raw
sewage is going too far.
|5.19.08 @ 2:05PM|#
Yet that's routine in Europe.
Ah, football hooligans. The shame of "progressive" Europe. That and Neo-Nazi skinheads.
shecky|5.19.08 @ 2:05PM|#
Moynihan, shouldn't you be lecturing the woman on the train rather than whining to us?
|5.19.08 @ 2:06PM|#
Anyone with a blanket opinion of another group (e.g. Europeans,
Americans, etc) is pretty much guaranteed to have never have
visited that area. Travel has a tendency to put to rest any ideas
of "superiority" either way (I'm referring to travel in First World
countries. I have no experience of any other).
Except the French. They're assholes. (JK)
B|5.19.08 @ 2:07PM|#
Europe, a continent, she sighed, that was light years ahead
of us on issues like race, immigration...
Ha! I see more black and brown people (many from other countries)
in one evening of walking my dog in my (just barely) mostly white,
working to middle-class neighborhood in Durham, NC than I did in an
entire week of walking around Paris.
|5.19.08 @ 2:07PM|#
I wouldn't be too sure about that.
Well, I should say Germans and most W. Europeans. The sanitation
in most Italian cities is appalling to the Americans I know that
visited.
That's the trouble I get in with generalizations.
|5.19.08 @ 2:08PM|#
Conservative America has more in common with Arabs than they do
with Scandinavia.
Ask each if they possess core religious values or secular
science-based rationality - you will see conservatives are
conservatives no matter the continent.... their Holy Book might
have a different title but it the same authoritarian message at the
core.
Bible = Koran - the same shit but different title.
Politics is the struggle for individuality in the face of
overwhelming social opposition. The US soldier who last week
defaced and shot the Koran would be executed in Iraq but applauded
by the same mentality here in the US.
Its all about the struggle for primacy.
Colin Clout|5.19.08 @ 2:09PM|#
Abdul,
Not going to defend the bananas, but I've witnessed a fair amount
of heckling at American ballparks which highlighted the ethnic,
etc. backgrounds of athletes.
|5.19.08 @ 2:12PM|#
I dated a Romanian woman several years ago, and I learned first hand that Romanians HATE gypsies.
Sybil|5.19.08 @ 2:12PM|#
"Anyone with a blanket opinion of another group (e.g. Europeans,
Americans, etc) is pretty much guaranteed to have never have
visited that area."
What if the group is black urban thug gang memberss? Are you saying
that the people who hold negative opinions of that group "(are)
pretty much guaranteed to have never have visited that area."?
Abdul|5.19.08 @ 2:13PM|#
Colin,
Maybe I don't go to as many games as you, but I've rarely heard
outspoken race or ethnic based heckling. There is some mean stuff
said about other cities (everyone hates New York and Dallas), but
the only prominent example of racial harassment came when someone
threw chicken bones at Tiger Woods when he was on a golf course in
North Carolina about 10 years ago.
Naga Sadow|5.19.08 @ 2:17PM|#
Moynihan,
You should elaborate more on the story. Was she trying to sell
something at the end? Perhaps in broken dialect, she mentioned a
family member in Pittsburgh who worked at a bank? Did he need a
bank account number to deposit some cash for a short period of
time?
The Wine Commonsewer|5.19.08 @ 2:17PM|#
Moynihan, shouldn't you be lecturing the woman on the train
rather than whining to us?
Something on a par with the Marine who threw the wrong bitch off
the train?
Colin Clout|5.19.08 @ 2:17PM|#
Abdul,
Well, it happens enough for me to have taken a mental note of
it.
BakedPenguin|5.19.08 @ 2:18PM|#
I learned first hand that Romanians HATE gypsies.
That one seems almost universal. IIRC, there was a spat between the
Czech Republic and England because the English restricted Visas to
the Czechs. Czech Roma were seeking asylum in England, because of
how they were being treated in the CR.
First Little Pig|5.19.08 @ 2:18PM|#
I do not think that I have a racist bone in my body but I do have a very negative view of Gypsy (Roma) culture. They view us gadje as subhuman and prey on us. Having been victimized by gypsies I have to admit that I have very little sympathy for them.
kinnath|5.19.08 @ 2:18PM|#
Except the French. They're assholes. (JK)
I've been to Ireland, England, Netherlands, Germany, France,
Russia, China (mainland), Singapore, and Australia.
The French, far and away, have the highest percentage of prick per
capita. Not Kidding.
Pax|5.19.08 @ 2:18PM|#
""Conservative America has more in common with Arabs than they
do with Scandinavia.
Ask each if they possess core religious values or secular
science-based rationality - you will see conservatives are
conservatives no matter the continent.... their Holy Book might
have a different title but it the same authoritarian message at the
core""
I am a conservative. I believe in evolution. I also believe that
you are an ignorant fool.
My bible say that there is no greater love than laying down one's
life for another. Yup, an authoritarian message at the core.
Did I mention you're an ignorant fool?
Plant Immigration RIghts Suppo|5.19.08 @ 2:19PM|#
"Commenting on the attacks in Naples, Umberto Bossi, the head of
the Northern League party said: "People are going to do what the
political class cannot.""
This reminds me of the "Rant" article in the most recent print
issue of reason. I am referring to the tolerant attitude of
government officials on the attacks on Native Americans (AKA
Indians) during the 18th and 19th Century in the United States.
Naga Sadow|5.19.08 @ 2:19PM|#
PL,
I don't know about gypsies but I did date a Vietnamese woman last
year. I learned that there is a group of people who hate Asian
people the most. The answer: other Asian people.
joe|5.19.08 @ 2:20PM|#
Pro Libertate | May 19, 2008, 2:12pm | #
I dated a Romanian woman several years ago, and I learned first
hand that Romanians HATE gypsies.
They don't like it too much when you mix up "Roma" and "Romanian,"
either.
What if the group is black urban thug gang memberss? By
putting "thug" into that sentence, you are defining your
conclusion. Yet, Sybil, thugs are thugs. Well done.
Now, if the question was "What about black urban gang members," the
answer would be, "They're not all thugs, a lot of them are just
normal people who identify with a peer group, which you'd know if
you'd met any." Which sort of proves Marcvs's point.
robc|5.19.08 @ 2:22PM|#
Ive heard racists comments at American sporting events, but its
much more subtle than the crap said at European soccer
matches.
Also, its a lot easier to be an environmentalist once you have
eliminated every wild species larger than a squirrel.
|5.19.08 @ 2:23PM|#
The French, far and away, have the highest percentage of
prick per capita. Not Kidding.
I've heard a lot of people say this, but I've also heard people say
that this is limited to Paris, and if you go elsewhere in the
country, French people are polite and friendly.
Sybil|5.19.08 @ 2:23PM|#
"Which sort of proves Marcvs's point."
I live in the ghetto, which proves mine in spades.
kinnath|5.19.08 @ 2:23PM|#
Never get behind a black man, regardless of nation of orgin, when going through customs or immigration in Europe or Asia.
|5.19.08 @ 2:25PM|#
joe,
Yeah, that's part of it. She was rather shrill about Romania not
being the home of the gypsies.
How about women? I'd say women have it far, far better in the U.S.
than just about anywhere else.
As for Paris, non-Parisians view Paris the way non-New Yorkers view
NYC.
|5.19.08 @ 2:27PM|#
What if the group is black urban thug gang memberss? Are you saying that the people who hold negative opinions of that group "(are) pretty much guaranteed to have never have visited that area."?
What area is "black urban thug gang memberss" (sic)? If you mean
"urban inner city", then yes, I'm pretty sure most peoples' view of
it is distorted by the press. Or do you just think that every black
person in the inner city is a "thug gang memberss"?
Steve|5.19.08 @ 2:27PM|#
Also, its a lot easier to be an environmentalist once you
have eliminated every wild species larger than a
squirrel.
Lol, i'll have to remember that one.
robc|5.19.08 @ 2:27PM|#
When going thru customs in Chicago, it speeds up the process if
your last name matches that of a famous hockey player.
Sure its anecdotal evidence, but its all I got.
|5.19.08 @ 2:27PM|#
I hate the French as well.
I had a great time in Nice, and the Parisians(!) treated my mother
very well when she was there a few weeks ago, so much as I would
like to hate them, I just can't work up the energy.
|5.19.08 @ 2:28PM|#
Agreed with the Asian racism. We went to a delightful little
Korean Barbeque place a couple of week ago (for the first time) and
asked for the house special but asked that there be no shrimp (I'm
allergic) and the lovely Korean lady laughed and explained that
Koreans, unlike the Chinese or Japanese, eat healthy.
She then explained to us the subtle differences between Korean and
the culture of pretty much everywhere else and how Korean culture
was superior.
The miso soup was to die for.
kinnath|5.19.08 @ 2:28PM|#
I've heard a lot of people say this, but I've also heard
people say that this is limited to Paris, and if you go elsewhere
in the country, French people are polite and friendly.
Been to Paris and Toulouse.
Have worked with a wide variety of engineering and management types
from many places in France. The native French tend to be complete
assholes. Non-native French (immigrants) tend to be very easy to
get along with.
Taktix®|5.19.08 @ 2:29PM|#
Hey Michael,
What color was this woman's hair? It sounds like my ex.
And you could have shut her up if you had your bottle of gypsy
tears on hand...
Colin Clout|5.19.08 @ 2:29PM|#
Pro Libertate,
Probably depends on the criteria. Some folks might consider say
Sweden better.
|5.19.08 @ 2:29PM|#
Sure you do, Sybil.
And even if we pretended you did, living in a bad neighborhood
still doesn't get you around the problem of defining your
conclusion by using individual characteristics to modify the group
being considered.
American Not From New York Cit|5.19.08 @ 2:30PM|#
"As for Paris, non-Parisians view Paris the way non-New Yorkers
view NYC."
New York City is one of the reasons people in other countries hate
Americans. The same may be true of Paris vis-a-vis French people.
If we MUST have the United Nations in the United States please,
lets move it to a city where less than 50% of the population are
assholes. Maybe then their diplomats will have a better view of
Americans.
|5.19.08 @ 2:31PM|#
The US soldier who last week defaced and shot the Koran would be executed in Iraq but applauded by the same mentality here in the US.
Yeah, well every soldier I talked to with a social conscience (most, but not all of us) thought that soldier was an idiot.
Rhywun|5.19.08 @ 2:31PM|#
Italians and Portugese are only Catholic in the historical
sense, most don't attend church or subscribe to church
doctrines
Yet they continue to believe in God in much larger, Poland- and
Greece-like numbers:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Europe_belief_in_god.png
Steve|5.19.08 @ 2:31PM|#
At least it wasn't a rant on Progressive Canada vs Conservative
America...
Eurpoe is so far away for most Americans that you can get away with
pretending that you know what you are talking about...
|5.19.08 @ 2:33PM|#
My bible say that there is no greater love than laying down
one's life for another
Ahh, but you picked out a quotation from a liberal Jew -
disregarding the 98% of the Bible that condemns others - and in
fact assigns liberal Jews to eternal damnation.
You're a fucking Arab and you don't know it. Religion is cruel
shit. Any binary reward system based on an irrational "belief" is
torture for innocents.
The Scandinavians know this. The Muslims are captives to a hostile
ideology.
Kolohe|5.19.08 @ 2:33PM|#
America was full of misinformed rubes entranced by American
Idol
Didn't we steal this show from the British?
And isn't a copy of this show aired in just about every country
nowadays?
And doesn't Simon Cowell ginormously wealthly because he has a
piece of the action from each of these shows?
And isn't the whole point of Cowell's personna is that he's a smug
arrogant asshole who thinks everyone else is an misinformed
rube?
So is this Bender or Morrisette ironic?
|5.19.08 @ 2:34PM|#
Although, I will always let the French guy pick the wine at dinner.
Last time that happened at a dinner I was at the guy picked a
bottle from California.
I've heard a lot of people say this, but I've also heard people say that this is limited to Paris,...
People who make an effort to speak the language and try to not be
rude or abrasive rarely encounter problems, even in Paris.
That said, there are assholes everywhere, and the French do seem to
have developed a particularly obnoxious type of assholery. But from
what I've seen they will almost as readily unleash it upon their
fellow countrymen as they will upon a tourist.
|5.19.08 @ 2:35PM|#
shrike, I'm an atheist, and no matter how many times I read your comment, all I see is nonsensical jibberish.
Rhywun|5.19.08 @ 2:35PM|#
I've been to Ireland, England, Netherlands, Germany, France,
Russia, China (mainland), Singapore, and Australia.
The French, far and away, have the highest percentage of prick per
capita. Not Kidding.
I've been to Germany, Austria, France, Spain, Canada, and China -
and I totally agree.
|5.19.08 @ 2:36PM|#
And you could have shut her up if you had your bottle of gypsy tears on hand...
Yes!!!!I was waiting for somebody to do it.
On a slightly more serious note, I missed the memo on the reasons
for the widespread hatred of Roma. Of all the bigotry I've heard in
my life, I swear the most astounding vitriol I've heard seems to
have been reserved for Jews, Blacks and Gypsies.
But still, I could laugh at Borat.
Colin|5.19.08 @ 2:38PM|#
"[I}n the latest Pew Global Attitudes poll shows that, just
behind the Japanese, the Nigerians were most positive towards
America.)"
Not surprising considering all the money they earn from 419
scams.
Sybil|5.19.08 @ 2:39PM|#
"Sure you do, Sybil."
Belive what you want about me, but my point was that the original
post -- Anyone with a blanket opinion of another group (e.g.
Europeans, Americans, etc) is pretty much guaranteed to have never
have visited that area. Travel has a tendency to put to rest any
ideas of "superiority" either way (I'm referring to travel in First
World countries. I have no experience of any other).) -- is
silly.
Steve|5.19.08 @ 2:39PM|#
I swear the most astounding vitriol I've heard seems to have
been reserved for Jews, Blacks and Gypsies.
It's because they are the weakest. not in any phical, emotional, or
mental sense, but in the sense that they are easiest to scapegoat
as they are generally minorities in the west, which is where you
run into the hatred.
|5.19.08 @ 2:39PM|#
The French, far and away, have the highest percentage of
prick per capita. Not Kidding.
Fuck you and your slug-shunning eating habits.
Pax|5.19.08 @ 2:40PM|#
"Ahh, but you picked out a quotation from a liberal Jew -
disregarding the 98% of the Bible that condemns others - and in
fact assigns liberal Jews to eternal damnation."
Have fun stormin' the castle!!!
Abdul|5.19.08 @ 2:40PM|#
People who make an effort to speak the language and try to
not be rude or abrasive rarely encounter problems, even in
Paris.
I was in Marsellies, at the tourist information booth in the train
station, trying to get information on how to visit various sites
mentioned in my guidebook. The booth attendant answered each
question with "Why would you want to go there?"
So I booked a train to Switzerland, which turned out to be the best
tourist destination in France.
kinnath|5.19.08 @ 2:44PM|#
People who make an effort to speak the language and try to
not be rude or abrasive rarely encounter problems, even in
Paris.
I have a smattering of German and Russian. The Russian I did use,
because it is very rare to find someone on the streets that speaks
English. The Germans would rather we do business in English. The
Dutch only speak Dutch at home. Everyone speaks English in
public.
The French are the only people that I have run into that basically
refuse to help non-French speaker get alone. Toulouse is the third
or fourth largest city in France. I frequently stay down-town where
there are lot hotels, resturants and shops. It is also the only
place I've travelled where I couldn't get an English language menu
in half the resturants and where the wait staff had no interest in
helping me figure out the menu.
That said, there are assholes everywhere, and the French do
seem to have developed a particularly obnoxious type of assholery.
But from what I've seen they will almost as readily unleash it upon
their fellow countrymen as they will upon a tourist.
I've seen French business managers tell an Australian customer they
would not provide a feature the customer expected as part of the
signed contract. Flat out no. The Australian dude did not take it
well.
Steve|5.19.08 @ 2:44PM|#
To hell with Europe anyway, what makes them so special? Everyone always behaving like Eurpoe is something we should live up to, I've always found Japan and Argentina to be much more enjoyable.
Naga Sadow|5.19.08 @ 2:45PM|#
Never been to France but have met over two dozen from France. Light on conversation, buy expensive items, generous tippers. Got no problem with France. Italians I've met seem to more or less be the same. English, however, what pricks!
|5.19.08 @ 2:45PM|#
Belive what you want about me, but my point was that the
original post is silly.
I still haven't heard your response to my actual point. All you
said (basically) was that black urban gang members are bad. That
doesn't have anything to do with what I said. Are you saying that
ALL people in the inner city are "black urban thug gang members"?
If so, you're just a racist idiot.
Paul|5.19.08 @ 2:47PM|#
about her country's hideous history of bigotry and genocide. America was full of misinformed rubes entranced by American Idol, we are congenitally, irredeemably racist, blah, blah. It was rather obvious, she argued, that Americans wouldn't ever pull the lever for Barack Obama, and for this she profusely apologized. (She actually apologized.) The Nigerian smiled politely.
I think at that moment, I'd have been tempted to say to the
Nigerian man, "I'm sorry, our country is chock full of people like
her."
Bingo.
The difference is that our racists are frequently backwoods
yokels missing teeth and their racists have accents and higher
culinary standards.
Bingo! (How apropos your name is)
Y'know, my mother is European, speaks with a foreign accent and has
higher culinary standards, and while I won't call her a racist,
there isn't an interaction with another human being that she
doesn't define by ethnic background.
Mike|5.19.08 @ 2:48PM|#
If so, you're just a racist idiot.
No, what he was saying was that you do not have to be a stranger to
a place to have a prejudice about it's people, and that some
prejudices have a basis in fact, though distorted and flawed. You
can't see that?
|5.19.08 @ 2:49PM|#
Of all the bigotry I've heard in my life, I swear the most
astounding vitriol I've heard seems to have been reserved for Jews,
Blacks and Gypsies.
Where I grew up, in southeastern Massachusetts, we didn't have
minorities. We were compelled to make fun of the Portugeuse.
Do you have any idea how hard it is to make furn of the Portugeuse?
For starters, the worst slur in the English language for
"Portugeuse" is the Portugeuse word for "Portugeuse."
"Hey, Manny! I hear your dad works real hard!"
Uh, yeah.
"I...I...uh...I bet your house is very clean, and well
maintained!"
Uh...yeah.
"Come on, everyone, let's go eat our bologna-and-Kraft-singles
sandwiches at the other table. Manny can eat his much more
appealing lunch by himself!"
Uh...bye!
Bob Mologna|5.19.08 @ 2:49PM|#
Ever had any dealings with gypsies? They aren't despised for no
reason.
As for racism at sporting events, the US has almost none. Here's a
popular chant at football matches when the Tottenham Hotspurs are
playing: 'Spurs are on their way to Belsen, Hitler's gonna gas 'em
again...
Then the crowd make hissing noises, like gas chambers. Lovely
people, the English.
Kyle|5.19.08 @ 2:50PM|#
Y'know, my mother is European, speaks with a foreign accent
and has higher culinary standards, and while I won't call her a
racist, there isn't an interaction with another human being that
she doesn't define by ethnic background.
lol, sounds like my grandmother:
"I just got off the line with Marcus, he's black you know, and he
told me..."
|5.19.08 @ 2:51PM|#
It is almost guarranteed that she does not speak a European language (other than English) and has not conversed thoroughly with people in the European countries she holds in such high regard.
|5.19.08 @ 2:52PM|#
Also, Moynihan, you lost me at
On the train to New York last week...
Commie!!!
j/k
|5.19.08 @ 2:53PM|#
We all know what your point was, Sybil.
And your point doesn't hold water, for the reason I've explained
twice now.
Let's try an example:
White people are smelly
vs.
White people who work in sewage treatement plants and have bad
hygeine habits are smelly.
By talking about "thugs" and "gang members," you aren't talking
about a group, but about people who have made individual choices.
Nobody has a problem with judging people by their individual
choices.
robc|5.19.08 @ 2:53PM|#
While it isnt racist or anything, the "Munich" chants at ManU are pretty damn tasteless.
|5.19.08 @ 2:57PM|#
I've been to Ireland, England, Netherlands, Germany, France,
Russia, China (mainland), Singapore, and Australia.
The French, far and away, have the highest percentage of prick per
capita. Not Kidding.
I've been to Germany, Austria, France, Spain, Canada, and China -
and I totally agree.
I've been to France, England, Austria, Canada, and Switzerland - -
- I'd say that Parisians and British children tie for the absolute
worst.
Sybil|5.19.08 @ 2:57PM|#
"No, what he was saying was that you do not have to be a
stranger to a place to have a prejudice about it's people, and that
some prejudices have a basis in fact, though distorted and flawed.
You can't see that?"
Thank you for saying what I meant. As I continue to work towards
earning my GED, I will strive for your clarity.
|5.19.08 @ 2:58PM|#
"The difference is that our racists are frequently backwoods
yokels missing teeth and their racists have accents and higher
culinary standards."
Unless you're talking about Louisiana, where the backwards yokels
have accents and high culinary standards.
|5.19.08 @ 2:59PM|#
We were compelled to make fun of the Portugeuse.
Heh heh, I've known about one Portugeuse person in my life. It is kind of interesting that I'm drawing a blank on any stereotypes for Portugeuse people.
BakedPenguin|5.19.08 @ 3:00PM|#
I'd say that Parisians and British children tie for the absolute worst.
That's what happens when you let them have their pudding when they
haven't eaten their meat.
joe|5.19.08 @ 3:01PM|#
Go back where you came from, you purveyors of high-quality stone- and brick-work!
Abdul|5.19.08 @ 3:01PM|#
It is kind of interesting that I'm drawing a blank on any
stereotypes for Portugeuse people.
They eat a lot of fish. Not that there's anything wrong with
that.
Episiarch|5.19.08 @ 3:03PM|#
Europeans are, by and large, so similar to us that our
differences are minuscule and sometimes get overblown. Europeans do
tend to be more casually racist than Americans, but only among
family and friends and never in public, and usually not in a
hateful way, but rather condescending.
The main difference is perception. Many Europeans perceive
themselves to be completely non-racist and Americans to be
slack-jawed bigots, and some Americans buy into that perception,
like Moynihan's traveling companion.
I also must note that my experiences with the Frogs has ranged from
total assholes to really great people. I have never been to Paris
other than transferring flights in de Gaulle Airport so I can't
speak for the widely maligned Parisians.
Rhywun|5.19.08 @ 3:05PM|#
Oh, and the Austrians were far-and-away the nicest people I
encountered.
Yeah, they're up there. Austria was such a pleasant trip - a
beautiful country and nice people - and I was just a hop, skip and
a jump from you-know-who with all the kids in the basement...
Episiarch|5.19.08 @ 3:07PM|#
Oh, and the Austrians were far-and-away the nicest people I
encountered.
Well, they have a lot of making up to do, considering...you know
who*...was Austrian.
* does that count as a Godwin?
Mike|5.19.08 @ 3:08PM|#
Thank you for saying what I meant. As I continue to work
towards earning my GED, I will strive for your clarity.
Good for you! My gardner just got his GED, i'm sure it will take
you to new heights. Good luck on the new test they adopted though,
the algebra can be difficult.
|5.19.08 @ 3:08PM|#
Epi -
I stayed with a family in Tours, and that place is just brimming
with nice folk. When my parents came to visit they were warmly
received despite their poor French. The most common reaction they
got was something to the effect of "What brings you to our town?
Most Americans just stay in Paris." So they were delighted that
people cared about them and were interested in their little bit of
history.
|5.19.08 @ 3:11PM|#
Oh, but yeah... you don't see large swaths of disenfranchised muslims rioting and burning cars in American suburbs, do you?
Steve|5.19.08 @ 3:12PM|#
Oh, but yeah... you don't see large swaths of
disenfranchised muslims rioting and burning cars in American
suburbs, do you?
We also don't kill each other over newspaper cartoons.
Plant Immigration RIghts Suppo|5.19.08 @ 3:12PM|#
"Unless you're talking about Louisiana, where the backwards
yokels have accents and high culinary standards."
Actually, with the exception of Ohio and certain parts of
Appalachia I think that American Yokels do have high culinary
standards. It is not "Euro-Food" but a higher percentage of them
know the difference between butter and margarine and know how to
make damn good pies and cook a steak better than most city-folk.
Again, I exempt Ohio and Appalachia from these remarks.
Steve|5.19.08 @ 3:14PM|#
Actually, with the exception of Ohio and certain parts of
Appalachia I think that American Yokels do have high culinary
standards. It is not "Euro-Food" but a higher percentage of them
know the difference between butter and margarine and know how to
make damn good pies and cook a steak better than most city-folk.
Again, I exempt Ohio and Appalachia from these remarks.
So not cool.
|5.19.08 @ 3:15PM|#
Europeans are, by and large, so similar to us that our differences are minuscule and sometimes get overblown. Europeans do tend to be more casually racist than Americans, but only among family and friends and never in public, and usually not in a hateful way, but rather condescending.
Well put. Like the Polish and German people who were very cordial to me, but eventually confide (shortly before the extremely cool Iraqi refugee stops by) that they can't stand the Turks. I wasn't even offended. All I could do was shrug.
Plant Immigration RIghts Suppo|5.19.08 @ 3:16PM|#
"Oh, but yeah... you don't see large swaths of disenfranchised
muslims rioting and burning cars in American suburbs, do
you?"
One difference between France and the United States is that in the
United States it is the wealthy people who live in the Suburbs and
in France it is the poor people who live in the Suburbs. I don't
know why but it is true. Another is that our illegal immigrants
tend to be Roman Catholics rather than Muslims.
|5.19.08 @ 3:18PM|#
Appalachia food story:
My wife found a menu in Eastern Kentucky that offered...
Mexican "Nachos"
(foreign but good)
...without a trace of irony.
PLant Immigration RIghts Suppo|5.19.08 @ 3:20PM|#
Steve, are you from Ohio or Appalachia? I have lived in both places at one time or another.
kinnath|5.19.08 @ 3:21PM|#
Another is that our illegal immigrants tend to be Roman
Catholics rather than Muslims.
The french "immigrants" that burn cars in the suburbs are "legal",
second or third generation "french" people that do not have full
rights (by law or by practice) as the "indigenous" french
people.
Use a different hammer to beat on mexicans.
Guy Montag|5.19.08 @ 3:22PM|#
I hate the [f]renchs as much as anyone else, but calling
them raw sewage is going too far.
At least he did not call them human.
Oh, Bingo: The difference is that our racists are frequently
backwoods yokels missing teeth and their racists have accents and
higher culinary standards.
You are under the impression that British soccer fans have great
teeth, nice accents and ANY culinary standards? I suggest new
glasses and a hearing aid.
Plant Immigration RIghts Suppo|5.19.08 @ 3:24PM|#
"Use a different hammer to beat on mexicans."
It was not my intent to "beat up on Mexicans" I support the right
of peaceful people to cross invisible lines. Do a search for my
handle and you will find I am consistent on this issue. I was
pointing out a clear cultural difference between France and the
United States.
dhex|5.19.08 @ 3:29PM|#
as a side note, irish people are so nice it's actually
paranoia-inducing. they have these tourist greeter types in shannon
airport that i mistook for some kind of scam artist, so i kept
refusing the free stuff (maps, etc) that she was trying to give me.
it must have been very frustrating.
(in my defense i was severely jet-lagged)
kinnath|5.19.08 @ 3:31PM|#
It was not my intent to "beat up on Mexicans" I support the
right of peaceful people to cross invisible lines.
My apologies.
However, it is wrong to imply that the civil unrest in France is
due to illegal immigrants. They are permanent, legal residents of
France who may have citizenship, but are clearly a suppressed
minority.
Steve|5.19.08 @ 3:31PM|#
Steve, are you from Ohio or Appalachia?
Ohio from birth, Appalachia through lineage. You're right by the
way, but still, too easy...
skavoovie|5.19.08 @ 3:31PM|#
Probably the most annoying person I've ever met was an American girl on the South-East Asia backpacker trail. She took everything anyone, European, American, or local, said or did as a function of their nationality or group identity or whatever. Obviously, anything Americans did was stupid and ignorant and anything anyone else did was a manifestation of their great culture. She also had sown a Canadian flag on her backpack to show everyone she wasn't racist.
Plant Immigration Rights Suppo|5.19.08 @ 3:32PM|#
"as a side note, irish people are so nice it's actually
paranoia-inducing. they have these tourist greeter types in shannon
airport that i mistook for some kind of scam artist, so i kept
refusing the free stuff (maps, etc) that she was trying to give me.
it must have been very frustrating."
I do recommend you turn down an offer for a free personality
test.
Mason Dixon|5.19.08 @ 3:34PM|#
"One difference between France and the United States is that in
the United States it is the wealthy people who live in the Suburbs
and in France it is the poor people who live in the Suburbs"
Actually, the USA is trending towards having it's poor live in
first-tier subarbs as the weathy move back to the cities.
|5.19.08 @ 3:34PM|#
All people who travel to Europe are assholes who don't care about the environment. Caring people stay home and smoke locally produced meth.
dhex|5.19.08 @ 3:35PM|#
scientologists are friendly in a creepy, dead fish eye kinda
way, though.
this is more like being friendly was her job and she thoroughly
enjoyed it.
|5.19.08 @ 3:36PM|#
That poor Nigerian may have been stuck next to my mother.
I have all these cringe-worthy memories from childhood of my mother
engaging every black person she met in a conversation about how
much she loved MLK. You could see them thinking "Someone shut this
lady up" through their terse smiles.
reasons for the widespread hatred of Roma.
I don't hate them, but I will say that I once found myself running
from them in fear of my life as a 13 year-old living in Germany.
Those guys are frickin' mean.
Plant Immigration RIghts Suppo|5.19.08 @ 3:38PM|#
"However, it is wrong to imply that the civil unrest in France
is due to illegal immigrants. They are permanent, legal residents
of France who may have citizenship, but are clearly a suppressed
minority."
I am not saying the riots were not justified. In some ways, they
reminded me of riots in the United States during the 1960's. But as
I understood it, there was a mixture of French citizens, legal
immigrants and illegal immigrants.
|5.19.08 @ 3:39PM|#
"It was rather obvious, she argued, that Americans wouldn't ever
pull the lever for Barack Obama, and for this she profusely
apologized."
So, she's programing herself for failure even before Obama is
officially nominated. I think "progressives" actually like losing
elections, so they can sit on the sidelines and tell themselves
they are too intelligent for the rubes in flyover-country; never
mind the fact that most leftists I talk to are pig-ignorant in
history or political philosophy.
're
|5.19.08 @ 3:44PM|#
"Then came the rather predictable speech on America's damaged
reputation and her deep embarrassment in disclosing her nationality
when travelling in Europe, a continent, she sighed, that was light
years ahead of us on issues like race, immigration, and various
social issues like gay rights and the death penalty."
Anyone who thinks that Europe is ahead of the US on immigration and
race issues is just unfathomably ignorant. Not that the US is
perfect but if you ever visit or live in Europe and pull your head
out of your ass and pay attention, you realize pretty quickly all
of the issues. Didn't this women notice how all the Muslims tend to
live the same neighborhood and that neighborhood is never anywhere
near the nice areas of town tourists go to? Unbelievable. My heart
goes out to this poor Nigerian stuck next to her.
Steve|5.19.08 @ 3:44PM|#
"flyover-country"
Someday those of us in flyover-country will make those borders
official. Mark my words.
|5.19.08 @ 3:46PM|#
It is kind of interesting that I'm drawing a blank on any stereotypes for Portugeuse people.
They eat a lot of fish. Not that there's anything wrong with that.
Not just fish, but
lampreys. I'm convinced that each nationality has to eat
something disgusting just to set them apart. French have slugs,
Italians have squid, Americans have White Castle, etc.
kinnath|5.19.08 @ 3:47PM|#
But as I understood it, there was a mixture of French
citizens, legal immigrants and illegal immigrants.
The last big set of riots was just prior to my last trip to
Toulouse. The cars were still smoking when I got there.
The analysis I read in Europe was that the bulk of the problem was
with second and third generation minorities that had not assimilatd
because the French basically prevent them from assimilating. This
results in wide spread unemployment and poverty. The basic
ingredients for violence.
Steve|5.19.08 @ 3:50PM|#
Americans have White Castle
Okay, the crack about ohio and appalachia from the other guy i
could stomach, but you aint gonna get away with disparaging my
Sliders!
They got Ranch flavored Chicken Rings man! just circles of chicken
meat! And the double cheese bacon sliders with jalepeno
cheese!
And the come in sacks and cardboard suitcases filled with 12-50 of
em!
Plant Immigration RIghts Suppo|5.19.08 @ 3:50PM|#
"Italians have squid,"
I am not Italian or even of Italian descent but I LOVE squid. If
you have never had calamari go to a good seafood or Italian
restaurant and try it (with an open mind.)
|5.19.08 @ 3:52PM|#
Leave-a-lona my calamari!
Happily...I don't know if Italian squid preparation is more
advanced, but the squid I had in China still had sand in it. But
true to my Scottish heritage, I ate the whole thing to get my
money's worth.
Episiarch|5.19.08 @ 3:54PM|#
From what I have seen in my trips to Europe, the Muslims are
totally segregated. This seems to come from both sides, both with
cognitive dissonance. For example:
European: "I don't know why the Muslims are so disaffected...hey
WTF is a Muslim doing in our grocery?"
Muslim: "The damn Europeans won't accept us...hey WTF is a white
girl doing here, and without a head covering no less?"
Not a good situation.
Plant Immigration RIghts Suppo|5.19.08 @ 3:56PM|#
I like a good White Castle once in a while. They are good frozen and I sometimes nuke them for breakfast.
Guy Montag|5.19.08 @ 3:57PM|#
At least at our NASCAR races the fans don't toss race-based fruit insults onto the track.
Steve|5.19.08 @ 3:57PM|#
Same with Krystals Steve!
As far as i'm concerned American Fast-food is the pinnicale of
human achievement.
Give it to me fast, cheap and dripping in deliciousness at 2am with
a soda bigger than my head!
Guy Montag|5.19.08 @ 3:58PM|#
BTW, the closest White Castle to Washington, DC is someplace in
New Jersey.
Closest Krystal is in Salem, VA.
Episiarch|5.19.08 @ 3:58PM|#
I don't know if Italian squid preparation is more advanced,
but the squid I had in China still had sand in it.
It is far more advanced. I'm sure you'd love the Spanish dish arroz
negro, which is rice flavored and colored (black) with squid ink.
Usually includes some pieces of squid as well. Not an amazing dish,
rather straightforward, but good.
Guy Montag|5.19.08 @ 4:00PM|#
Steve, my favorite around here is Five Guys. Heard they now have one in Knoxville too. But they don't have Krystal's or Buddy's (a Knox BBQ chain) here, so 5-Guys will have to wait until I return from the long weekend.
|5.19.08 @ 4:01PM|#
Squid - teh yummy.
Deep fried (but not too long!), served with some red sauce and hot
peppers...mmmmmmmmm.
Then again, we eat some pretty freaky seafood in Massachusetts. I
brought some steamers back to make for my Memphis-born roommate one
year, he thought I was trying to start a fight.
|5.19.08 @ 4:01PM|#
Epi,
That is not a bad description of the situation. The Europeans
brought in the Muslims to do the dirty work after World War II but
never had any intention of letting be anything but second class
citizens. The Muslims reacted to this by well becoming second class
citizens living in enclaves becoming more and more insular and
disaffected with each generation. It is a real mess. Take the most
insular Spanish speaking immigrant enclave in this country and
multiply it by 100 and that is what you have over there in some
places. What is even worse is the Muslims who do assimilate are
still treated like shit. I knew several Turks in Germany who were
just as German as any of my German friends. They were everything
you would think the Germans would want Muslims to be. But, they
still were not quite accepted, although that seemed to be less so
among younger people, so maybe there is hope for the future.
Guy Montag|5.19.08 @ 4:01PM|#
Am I already on record as being a squid hating Italian? If not, I am now.
Plant Immigration RIghts Suppo|5.19.08 @ 4:02PM|#
"At least at our NASCAR races the fans don't toss race-based
fruit insults onto the track."
When I was in the Air Force and stationed at Dover I was ordered to
"volunteer" at a NASCAR event. I had never been to one before. But
three things I learned there are 1. NASCAR fans are more polite
than any other sports fans I have ever encountered (though this may
have been because I was in uniform) 2. I can't stand watching cars
drive in ovals for hours at a time. 3. Fords suck (at least at
NASCAR events).
|5.19.08 @ 4:02PM|#
My last post for this thread, I just wanted to say that joe explained my point better than I did. (egads!)
Guy Montag|5.19.08 @ 4:03PM|#
3. Fords suck (at least at NASCAR events).
That is everywhere.
MOPAR all the way baby!
PeeDub|5.19.08 @ 4:05PM|#
Happily...I don't know if Italian squid preparation is more
advanced, but the squid I had in China still had sand in it. But
true to my Scottish heritage, I ate the whole thing to get my
money's worth.
To a Scot, sandy squid should have seemed a delicacy.
Guy Montag|5.19.08 @ 4:07PM|#
To a Scot, sandy squid should have seemed a
delicacy.
Yea, just like those gritty mussles.
Guy Montag|5.19.08 @ 4:08PM|#
No one can do a squid or a clam like Woodmans.
I love raw clams, but they are hard to find sometimes.
|5.19.08 @ 4:09PM|#
Joe,
Woodman's is North of Boston in Essex. My wife is from the north
shore. It is this huge shack almost. They serve fried clams and
squid and lobster rolls and stuff like that. It is awesome. I would
highly reccomend it. Ask around the Boston area and someone will
know what it is. If you like that kind of stuff, take a trip to
Essex and go. You won't be disapointed.
Steve|5.19.08 @ 4:13PM|#
We don't have 5-guys in Ohio. But we are the home of Wendy's,
White Castle, and Arbys.
Everyone always complaining about the mid-west and our fat asses,
suburbs, fast-food, and suvs is just jealous. We're kings og the
world i tell ya, kings of the world! IAnd i for one enjoy driving
my too fat ass in my too big car to get too much food whenever the
hell i fell like it. :-)
BakedPenguin|5.19.08 @ 4:14PM|#
Then again, we eat some pretty freaky seafood in
Massachusetts.
Check out "gooey ducks". There's nothing on the east coast anywhere
so nasty.
Steve|5.19.08 @ 4:16PM|#
and no i don't care about the typos, i'm an american 20-something, i can spell how i like and i'll still have it made!
|5.19.08 @ 4:16PM|#
I love places like that, John. I used to work in one. Come home
at 1 AM, smelling like low tide. Worst job ever, except for the
benefits (ie, free food).
Ever put a little Tobasco on a nice scallop roll?
Plant Immigration RIghts Suppo|5.19.08 @ 4:17PM|#
When I was stationed in San Antonio I discovered Whattaburger. Damn good. Unfortunately I have never seen them anywhere outside of Texas.
Plant Immigration RIghts Suppo|5.19.08 @ 4:18PM|#
Sorry, only one T in that name
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataburger
|5.19.08 @ 4:20PM|#
Comparing White Castle to Krystal is like comparing being hit in
the head with a bat to being slugged with a tire iron.
Plant Immigration RIghts Supporter,
Whattaburger is in Florida. It's been in north Florida for decades,
but it recently moved south. There's one near my house in
Tampa.
Episiarch|5.19.08 @ 4:22PM|#
Then again, we eat some pretty freaky seafood in
Massachusetts.
Try walking through the seafood section of the market in La Rambla
in Barcelona. I saw more seafood variety there than I've ever seen
before. There were more species on the tables than in the main tank
at the New England Aquarium.
Nephilium|5.19.08 @ 4:23PM|#
Steve:
Don't forget, Ohio also spawned Max and Erma's...
Giant big burgers dripping with grease... at a sit down place to
boot.
Nephilium
|5.19.08 @ 4:24PM|#
"Ever put a little Tobasco on a nice scallop roll?"
No, but that is not a bad idea. Go to Woodmans, just be prepared
for the crowds, but they are quick so the lines moves quickly.
PLant Immigrtation RIghts Supp|5.19.08 @ 4:25PM|#
"Whattaburger is in Florida. It's been in north Florida for
decades, but it recently moved south. There's one near my house in
Tampa."
THanks, I'll have to go next time I go to class at USF.
|5.19.08 @ 4:31PM|#
PLant Immigrtation RIghts Supporter,
There's one on W. Hillsborough and one in Plant City.
Rhywun|5.19.08 @ 4:37PM|#
But, they still were not quite accepted, although that
seemed to be less so among younger people, so maybe there is hope
for the future.
When I lived in Germany 20 years ago I didn't notice any signs of
racism against Turks from the young people. Things got more tense
when the East was re-absorbed but today I don't hear much about
tensions in Germany; not nearly as much as France and Britain.
Guy Montag|5.19.08 @ 4:39PM|#
robc,
Krystals have mustard, pickle chips and onions. Have to add ketchup
yourself if you like. All of the stores are supposed to have
Tobasco in stock too.
As usual, joe is fabricating a pasta position for me. And as wrong
as humanly possible, I might add.
|5.19.08 @ 4:43PM|#
Guy,
Certainly, Krystal has my regional loyalty over White Castle, as a
child of Tennessee (esp., in this case, Chattanooga), but I'm not
compelled to eat at either "restaurant".
joe|5.19.08 @ 4:44PM|#
Am I already on record as being a squid hating
Italian?
I think we might have a punctuation issue here.
What's supposed to be after "squid?" Question mark? Dash? Comma?
Slash?
Guy Montag|5.19.08 @ 4:45PM|#
Certainly, Krystal has my regional loyalty over White
Castle, as a child of Tennessee (esp., in this case, Chattanooga),
but I'm not compelled to eat at either "restaurant".
Were you traveling with that chick on the train? ;)
|5.19.08 @ 4:47PM|#
It appears to me to be a joke, GM - as though you were calling yourself a squid... who hated Italian food.
Paul|5.19.08 @ 4:47PM|#
One difference between France and the United States is that
in the United States it is the wealthy people who live in the
Suburbs and in France it is the poor people who live in the
Suburbs.
It's like that in some American cities as well. Welcome to Seattle.
If you want crime, gunshots, drive-by's, graffiti, 20" dubs, meth
dealers and pregnant teenagers, you head to the suburbs.
Guy Montag|5.19.08 @ 4:51PM|#
Paul,
As someone mentioned above, that is a lot of US cities. When I was
working at Dolphin Stadium by Miami last year, those suburbs had
more of that 1960s inner city "feeel" than downtown did.
Parts of the DC beltway seem to be that way too, with the older
"bad" DC neighborhoods improving economically.
Guy Montag|5.19.08 @ 4:52PM|#
Now he is doing Emeril, ugh. Stick yo your old political stuff joe, like accusing others of being partisan, etc.
|5.19.08 @ 4:56PM|#
"Parts of the DC beltway seem to be that way too, with the older
"bad" DC neighborhoods improving economically."
That is very true. Ten years ago Chinatown and Downtown were pretty
seedy. Now they are totally gentrified. Meanwhile, areas of
Arlington and Alexandria and Mannassas have become very seedy where
they used to be clean suburbs.
bubba|5.19.08 @ 4:58PM|#
Years ago I visited Sweden, where I was lectured on how much
more tolerant they were than Americans on the topic of race.
Days later, an entire apartment complex was firebombed in
Stockholm. It was popular with Turkish immigrants.
Guy Montag|5.19.08 @ 5:02PM|#
Years ago I visited Sweden, where I was lectured on how much
more tolerant they were than Americans on the topic of race.
Days later, an entire apartment complex was firebombed in
Stockholm. It was popular with Turkish immigrants.
Perhaps they define tolerance differently? You know, the way the
Leftist here keep changing "fairness"?
|5.19.08 @ 5:08PM|#
Also Guy,
The problem with the improving of the older neighborhoods is that
in DC "improvement" means redeveloping the area for rich yuppies
and moving all of the people who live in the area out. That is
great when you are moving the criminals out, but they also move
everyone who is not rich and has a normal job. I honestly don't
know how anyone lives in Washington without a six figure job.
Rhywun|5.19.08 @ 5:21PM|#
redeveloping the area for rich yuppies and moving all of the
people who live in the area out
You make it sound like the government is doing the moving instead
of the market. Yeah, there are some cases of the government tearing
down projects but they're a drop in the bucket compared to what
market speculation is doing to normal people (and in every case
I've read about, the existing residents are guaranteed a slot in
whatever replaces the old project).
|5.19.08 @ 6:27PM|#
I have been to France a few times, so I will attest to the high
prick per capita.
The coolest French person I met while in France was the girl at the
renta car place. She was hilarious and friendly. But part of her
very funny bit was telling me what awful people Italians are, and
that if I drove the rented car to Italy she would expect the radio
to be stolen.
I should mention, that pretty much all the French people I have met
outside of France were very cool (except those in NYC). I made very
good friends with some French people in Saudi Arabia, and in
Egypt.
I also second the friendlyness of the Austrians.
And the hardest place to understand anyone is actually England.
Make of that what you will.
Paul|5.19.08 @ 6:37PM|#
And the hardest place to understand anyone is actually
England.
My mother is English, and she can't understand the English. Her
Czech is flawless, however. Make of that what you will.
|5.19.08 @ 7:06PM|#
"Years ago I visited Sweden, where I was lectured on how much
more tolerant they were than Americans on the topic of race.
Days later, an entire apartment complex was firebombed in
Stockholm. It was popular with Turkish immigrants."
I was watching a Buffy the Vampire Slayer (maybe it was the
spinoff) where an Italian woman lectured the Americans on how they
always try to solve their problems through violence. A few days
later a goalkeeper in the Italian league got hit with a lit road
flare during a game.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aMRD8fGToFY
The world is full of jackasses.
|5.19.08 @ 7:29PM|#
Well, they have a lot of making up to do, considering...you
know who*...was Austrian.
* does that count as a Godwin?
Why would bringing up Freud Godwin the thread?
Yahoo Answerer|5.19.08 @ 7:42PM|#
Austrians and Germans tend to be self conscious about WW2 and sometimes self-flagellate over it too. It seems sometimes people within a given culture (at least in the West) are harder on themselves about unpleasantness in their past than outsiders are. Look at the self-flagellation Americans do about Native Americans. Also look at "Sorry Day" in Australia and in New Zealand Maori is an official language etc.
|5.19.08 @ 9:06PM|#
kwais:
I have been to France a few times, so I will attest to the high
prick per capita.
That's kinda funny. I've never been there but I have a friend who's
a rich punk rocker-the proverbial "silver spoon and a paper plate"
type. She's a gal of pretty even disposition-even mellow, but she's
told me of two public altercations she's had there, to the point of
screaming, that she attributes to over the top rudeness on the part
of a few of the natives.
Guy Montag|5.19.08 @ 9:49PM|#
I thought Progressive was an insurance company???
Isn't the CEO a Soros-like Leftie?
Guy Montag|5.19.08 @ 10:30PM|#
Missed the obvious, but not used lately joke :(
Certainly, Krystal has my regional loyalty over White Castle,
as a child of Tennessee (esp., in this case, Chattanooga), but I'm
not compelled to eat at either "restaurant".
Everybody does not share your San Francisco values.
|5.19.08 @ 11:50PM|#
Bitchin off topic- But sometimes wonderful music can provide
some relief from the ongoing tragedy of governments attacking
liberty and prosperity. I just happened upon this and I don't wanna
wait till a Friday Fun link to share it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zyM11mytGZs
My posted comments on the tune:
"Wow! Thanks for posting this rare and crucial gem! This is the
song that so impressed the Fun Boy Three and that gave serious
impetus to Bananarama's career. It's an African tune. They were
quite the rage for a while in the punk/New Wave scene. The gorgeous
singing that the girls do on this tune first made clear they were a
way out of the ordinary talent. I don't wanna stop listening to it.
"
|5.20.08 @ 4:30AM|#
Please, don't pretend the EU is more than a trade union gone
bad.
When you say that "X% of europeans say", do you mean citizens of EU
countries or European countries?
As a Norwegian I'm ashamed to be counted in the same context as one
of the most racist, semi-facist countries in the world,
Italy.
Some parts of Europe, mostly the northwestern, are some of the best
places to live no matter what sexual preferences of ethnicity you
represent.
|5.20.08 @ 5:03AM|#
America was full of misinformed rubes entranced by American
Idol, we are congenitally, irredeemably racist, blah, blah. It was
rather obvious, she argued, that Americans wouldn't ever pull the
lever for Barack Obama, and for this she profusely apologized. (She
actually apologized.) The Nigerian smiled politely.
What, a race obsessed left-winger. Impossible!
VM|5.20.08 @ 7:53AM|#
gunnels - I call bullshit on your ball game heckling stories. Or
i call "ignorance" on you w.r.t soccer heckling.
Lars - sure - however, that's the "europe" rhetoric. "Norway voted
not to be a part of Europe". stuff like that. it sucks.
How can you know that Jesus wasn't from norway?
It's impossible to find three wisemen coming in from the
east...
(jeg driller bar')
|5.20.08 @ 9:07AM|#
Most of the racist incidents at soccer matches in Europe come
from the former Bloc countries and the South. In the former Bloc,
it's probably caused by their quick integration into the common
market which has given rise to a slew of expatriate Africans
looking for work. To the mostly ethnically homogeneous (Poland,
Czech Republic) and/or already ethnically divided parts of Europe
(Balkans), it stirs up some pretty ugly resentment.
It translates to the pitch when they see their formerly lily-white,
nationalist-themed teams importing cheap, foreign, black players
from all sorts of African and even South American and Caribbean
nations. They even heckle players on their own teams.
Southern Europe, I think, is more of a combination of long-held
"traditions" and the free flow of labor. Their teams are also
importing black players, but because their leagues are more
prestigious and higher-quality, those players tend to already be or
become massive stars and make tons of money.
When you add the traditional support bases of certain clubs into
the mix (Lazio is the semi-fascist suburban club of Rome, preferred
by Il Duce and Co. vs. Roma's relatively more
working-class/populist city-dwelling fans), you get amplified
manifestations of racism. Same sort of thing applies in Milan, with
AC Milan's wealthy "establishment" fan base vs. Inter's
semi-bohemian, almost socialist fan base.
A couple of years ago, Samuel Eto'o (FC Barcelona) from Cameroon
was mercilessly abused by Real Zaragoza fans (one of the teams
dubbed "Real" by Franco, IIRC) even though Zaragoza had at least
one black player (Ewerthon). Barcelona is THE major face of Catalan
independence in Spain and is thus very anti-government. The "Reals"
of Spain are massively "establishment", especially Franco's
favorite, Real Madrid.
Elsewhere in Europe, particularly in England, fan behavior is now
so controlled and so many cameras are watching and there are so
many very public campaigns against racism that it is not very
visible publicly. It helps (in England) that they have had a long
tradition of having blacks in their labor force and in society and
have been quite less homogeneous than their southern and eastern
counterparts for much longer. On the other hand, there are still
outbursts from time to time, so you can bet that racist attitudes
haven't been stamped out by a long shot, even there.
As for Tottenham Hotspur, I don't know which came first (the "gas"
stuff or the Jewish identity), but they've long taken pride in
their "Jewishness" as a fan base, even though most of their fans
aren't the least bit Jewish. It's to the point that they loudly
proclaim themselves the "Yid Army". It might be that that's a
reaction to the taunts, however.
On another note, whoever said the "Munich" chants are disgusting
are absolutely right. And I despise ManUre with every bone in my
body.
Sean Healy|5.20.08 @ 9:18AM|#
The responses so far seem to come from Americans who have
visited Europe. I'm an American who has lived in Europe (and
travelled extensively throughout the continent) for the last 13
years and I'm here to tell that, taken as a whole, Europe is far
more racist (both overtly and covertly) than the US. That is, from
rural Ireland to urbane Rome to German university towns and Greek
resorts, European thinking, behavior and politics are structured by
a kind of casual, unexamined bigotry that simply doesn't exist on
the American scene.
This is not to say racism is no longer a problem in America, but
America has the virtue of an overarching ideology that eventually
admits the foreigner to the national family; we also know and
acknowledge that racism is part of our enduring history. This
simply is not true of Europeans for whom a) immigrants will always
be just that (here in Ireland they're called 'non-nationals') b)
imperialism happened somewhere far, far away and c) the Holocaust
is something in history books, not an atrocity perpetrated by the
most advanced civilizations within living memory (the Austrians, by
the way, are absolutely the worst about this, seeing themselves
somehow as victims of the Nazis).
Apart from Germany, no European country has gone through the
difficult process of confronting widespread racism in the same the
US has had to about slavery and its legacy. And, now that Israel is
the pariah state par excellence among Europeans, even Germany has
been excused from class on that one and anti-Semitism is once again
an acceptable prejudice in European public discourse.
This sort of backsliding is enabled by the smugness of people like
Lars, above, who must have been out of town two years ago when the
progressive Norwegian press was running cartoons of Ehud Olmert as
Kommandant Amon Goeth and exhortations by the esteemed (!) Jostein
Gaarder for another Jewish exodus - from Israel. Can anyone here
imagine, say, the New York Times running a cartoon of Barack Obama
as head of a lynch mob or as a slave overseer? How about an op-ed
by Tom Friedman arguing that it's time for blacks to leave America
because, while we liked their noble suffering pre-1964, their
behavior since then doesn't comport with our notions of how a model
minority should act? Of course you can't, because American isn't
nearly as jaw-droppingly racist as even the most 'advanced'
European countries.
Apologies for the Godwin and argument from authority.
|5.20.08 @ 9:23AM|#
"Parts of the DC beltway seem to be that way too, with the older
"bad" DC neighborhoods improving economically."
Both are consequences of the urban renaissance this country is
experiencing. Arbitrary political borders aside, thoss suburbs -
like Cheverley, for example - function like outlying neighborhoods
of the city. As the urban core is revitalized (and if you notice,
it's the neighborhoods near the cities' centers, the oldest areas,
that are the hottest for gentrifiers), lower-income people who live
there or who might have moved there end up in the outlying
neighborhoods, including those just across the political
boundary.
At least DC and other older cities have outlying
neighborhoods/suburbs with housing stock that can accommodate
lower-income people.
In all seriousness|5.20.08 @ 10:24AM|#
I live in New York City. And I'm rich. That means I regularly
eat at Masa, Blue Ribbon sushi (both locations), 15 East, Sushi
Yasuda, etc.etc. The Japanese are thousands of years ahead of other
cultures when it comes to fish.
I recently took a trip to California, only to discover that they
hold the crown for fast-food. In-'n'-out, Carl's Junior, don't get
me started...
Chad|5.20.08 @ 8:04PM|#
"The Japanese are thousands of years ahead of other cultures
when it comes to fish"
I assume you mean "preparing fish", because when it comes to
sustainably maintaining ocean fish stocks, the Japanese are
neck-and-neck with the Europeans for the biggest monstosities on
earth. I love how lots of European "development aid" they like to
brag about comes attached with little things like "oh, and we get
to trawl your coastal waters down to the bedrock for the next 50
years" attached to the deal. Strangely enough, this is one
environmental area where the US blows both Japan and Europe away,
though this party is due to the fact that we were the first to
obliterate our own stocks and largely learned our lesson.
And I won't even get into how bad first-world agriculture subsidies
hurt the world's poor far more than development aid helps
them...and Japan's are, as far as I know, the strongest in the
world. Europe's are nearly as bad.
|5.20.08 @ 11:57PM|#
Problem is that your average rube doesn't take the time to
figure out how it works in France, and so ends up thinking the
frogs are rude. Paris, like any other French city or town or
encampment, runs on politeness, and if you don't know how to do it
you run the risk of getting dissed or at least treated like a an
infant or unnecessary hillbilly.
That said, there's also a herd mentality at work here, people
seeing or thinking they see rudeness in France because almost every
other goober knows that is what there is to see. This extends to
the old saw about well, they're nasty in Paris but they're OK
elsewhere. Same people folks. Same rules of etiquette. There are
fewer American goobers out in the French sticks, true, but the frog
can live with the American goober. It's the ignorant and therefore
rude American goober who gets dissed, and is forced to conclude
that there's something wrong with them people over there.
|5.21.08 @ 5:03AM|#
Sean:
I was very much in town when they published the drawings, and I
want to remind you that this was a direct response to the drawings
of Muhammed.
And I still think that Norway is one of the best places to live for
a non-western immigrant, even though all places has their
flaws.
But I really prefer it if you would not drag a satirical drawing,
that was published to demonstrate that all sides of the debate has
full freedom of speach, into a debate about bigotry and racism.
Sean Healy|5.21.08 @ 7:40AM|#
So what you're saying, Lars, is that depicting a Jew as a mass
murderer of Jews is roughly equivalent in terms of its racist
content to depicting Muhammed as...Muhammed. I'm having a hard time
deciding who should be more offended by that equation, Jews or
Muslims. I'm gonna go with Jews, since the Norwegian reflex to
pissing off Muslims seems to be prove that you actually hate Jews
way more. How reassuring.
Look, draw all the stupid pictures you want, just don't tell me
they reveal nothing important about Norwegian attitudes towards
others.
|5.21.08 @ 9:04AM|#
Sean:
My point was that those pictures reveal _some_ norwegians attitudes
towards others, and Norways attitude towards free speach.
Allowing some assholes to publish their racism does not equal a
racist country.
You won't see numbers like these (from the article) in
Norway:
"Sixty-eight per cent of Italians, fuelled by often inflammatory
attacks by the new rightwing government, want to see all of the
country's 150,000 Gypsies, many of them Italian citizens, expelled,
according to an opinion poll."
Saying that Norway is in any way aligned with Italy when it comes
to racism, because we won't censor the (racist/unpopular)
expressions of the few, is very close to an insult.
Sean Healy|5.21.08 @ 10:42AM|#
And my point was that a country where even _some_ of the people retain and openly express such attitudes is miles behind the US in terms of confronting/overcoming racism. Whether the expression is allowed or not is beside the point (and not once have I advocated censorship). Anyway, if you're not as bad as those awful Italians, perhaps you could explain why the chief rabbi of (progressive) Norway told members of his congregation not to wear Jewish symbols in public. Again, that would be simply unimaginable in the US.
|5.22.08 @ 3:10AM|#
Sean:
So, the US is a place where nobody would ever openly express
racism?
Then I'd like you to take a look at the statements given by
Kentucky people on why they won't vote for Obama. Statements given
by private citizens and published by - some - private media.
When it comes to the Norwegian rabbi who "told members of his
congregation not to wear Jewish symbols in public.", I'd like to
see a link to the article where you read that. It would be an
interresting, though sad, read.
Sean Healy|5.22.08 @ 8:40AM|#
No, Lars, the US is a place where broadsheet newspapers don't
casually publish racist editorial cartoons and then expect everyone
to pat them on the back for it. Remember, your original explanation
for the despicable representation of Olmert as a Nazi kommandant,
was that Norwegian cartoonists were "responding" to the Muslim
cartoons in Denmark by what, exactly? I guess proving that they
were allowed to show how much they hate Jews or just that they
don't hate Muslims exclusively? And how do you account for Jostein
'the Jews should all go die already' Gaarder? Can you think of a
respected US intellectual who has expressed similar sentiments with
the imprimatur of a mainstream publication?
I have no problem admitting that there is racism in the US,
especially in Kentucky, if you'd like. My entire point was that
racism is worse - and, crucially, typically unrecognised - in
Europe. Keep in mind that the comments from Kentucky have been
highlighted precisely for the purposes of condemnation. Nothing
about the Olmert cartoon says 'some people have a bad opinion of
Jews - isn't that terrible?' On the contrary, the cartoon was
saying 'Jews are terrible, bloodthirsty monsters - especially those
Jews in Israel, who are the true inheritors of the Nazi legacy, not
we lovely Norwegians, who on the other hand can now expiate our own
Nazi guilt by retroactively blaming today's Jews for the Nazi
persecution - with our assistance - of their ancestors, because
they themselves are so awful and Nazi-like. Ha ha.'
Sean Healy|5.22.08 @ 8:46AM|#
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