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Alan Keyes Loses Again
The Permanent Candidate has failed to win the nomination of the paleoconservative Constitution Party. Eric Garris reports:
Last night, CP founder Howard Phillips strongly denounced [Alan] Keyes as a warmonger, neocon, and egomaniac. Phillips was subsequently attacked by Jim Clymer, the CP national chairman.
In spite of Keyes bringing in a lot of delegates, the CP remained true to their anti-interventionist views and rejected Keyes.
The nomination instead went to the antiwar conservative Chuck Baldwin, by a vote of 383.8 to 125.7. It's a small but satisfying victory for two noble though possibly lost causes: the movement to end the occupation of Iraq and the transideological coalition to get Alan Keyes to shut up.
I pointed out a while back that the California affiliate of the Constitution Party is the old American Independent Party, a group formed as a political vehicle for the segregationist George Wallace. Jim Antle of The American Spectator, who has done the best reporting I've seen on the CP race, tells me that the California delegation backed Keyes, a black man -- while the party's two black state chairs were Keyes' leading opponents. It's a complicated world, innit?
|4.26.08 @ 1:58PM|#
Sadly, the American Independent Party is the largest "third
party" in California, full of folks who thought they were
registering as Independent.
In CA, there is no "Independent" category per se, that group being
labeled "Decline to State". So, while 19% of the state electorate
chose Decline to State, a little over 2% wandered off to choose
American Independent - three times the size of the Greens and four
times the size of the Libertarians.
VM|4.26.08 @ 2:22PM|#
Last night, CP founder Howard Phillips strongly denounced [Alan] Keyes as a warmonger, neocon, and egomaniac.
he left out, "fired part time circus freak".
mein gott that guy is a fucking loon!
|4.26.08 @ 2:27PM|#
...the transideological coalition to get Alan Keyes to shut
up.
Where do I send the donation?
The man is incapable of feeling embarrassment.
Franklin Harris|4.26.08 @ 2:38PM|#
It's a complicated world, innit?
In his last race for governor, George Wallace won a solid majority
of the black vote in Alabama. So, yes, it is.
Elemenope|4.26.08 @ 2:40PM|#
the transideological coalition to get Alan Keyes to shut
up.
I can't get behind that. Keyes is too entertaining.
Keyes is that guy that when insane people listen to him, they say
to their imaginary friends, "You know, I may be a little weird, but
that guy is fucking crazy."
|4.26.08 @ 2:58PM|#
...the California delegation backed Keyes, a black man --
while the party's two black state chairs were Keyes' leading
opponents. It's a complicated world, innit?
This is an indication of faire mindedness and sophistication. Race
should never be a factor of preference in matters of politics as
well as commerce.
|4.26.08 @ 3:01PM|#
Franklin Harris:
In his last race for governor, George Wallace won a solid
majority of the black vote in Alabama.
But was that perhaps cuz he ran against a guy who played the race
card less than he did?
|4.26.08 @ 3:11PM|#
I shoulda asked: But was that perhaps cuz he ran against a guy who played the race card more than he did?
Jesse Walker|4.26.08 @ 3:18PM|#
But was that perhaps cuz he ran against a guy who played the
race card more than he did?
No, Wallace reversed himself on civil rights once he saw the way
the winds had turned. If blacks were going to vote, then he was
going to chase their votes. And he did, very successfully.
the innominate one|4.26.08 @ 3:34PM|#
Why doesn't the Libertarian Party and the Constitutional Party get together? Superficially it sounds like they share the same goals, but I'm thoroughly ignorant of the Constitutional Party's platform. Similarly, why didn't/ don't they get behind Ron Paul?
|4.26.08 @ 3:35PM|#
Jesse,
Yeah that makes sense. I think that he was more a pol than anything
else. Early on prior to mass Black voting, after he lost an
election, he's famously quoted as saying, "I was out ni****ed once
and I'll never be out ni****ed again."
Robert|4.26.08 @ 3:43PM|#
Sadly, the American Independent Party is the largest "third party" in California, full of folks who thought they were registering as Independent.
The same is probably true for the Independence Party in NY and
probably several other states. I say "probably" because I don't
think any survey has determined that to be the cause of their high
enrollment.
Actually the Conservative Party may still have a greater enrollment
statewide in NY, but if so it's close. The Independence Party did,
however, get more votes on their line for governor in 2006.
Travis|4.26.08 @ 4:20PM|#
"Why doesn't the Libertarian Party and the Constitutional Party
get together? Superficially it sounds like they share the same
goals, but I'm thoroughly ignorant of the Constitutional Party's
platform. Similarly, why didn't/ don't they get behind Ron
Paul?"
They tend to be a little on the theocratic side.
Gene Berkman|4.26.08 @ 5:03PM|#
"Why doesn't the Libertarian Party and the Constitutional Party
get together? Superficially it sounds like they share the same
goals, but I'm thoroughly ignorant of the Constitutional Party's
platform. Similarly, why didn't/ don't they get behind Ron
Paul?"
The biggest differences between the Lib Party and the Const. Party
are around religion, abortion & immigration, but we have worked
together on issues.
Many Libertarians and Constitution Party members did campaign for
Ron Paul. Rev. Chuck Baldwin campaigned in Iowa and other states
for Ron Paul, and I operate a Libertarians for Ron Paul website @
www.libertariansforpaul.com
VM|4.26.08 @ 5:49PM|#
Oh, nameless one:
get where you're coming from - I see Paul more of a Const Party
type or a southern states rights type long before I'd consider him
libertarian, so that makes sense to this antlered creature - at
least that RP is CP material!
Neil|4.26.08 @ 6:04PM|#
Well now theres only one candidate left in the race in any party
thats pro-victory.
Its John McCain.
Elemenope|4.26.08 @ 6:16PM|#
Well now theres only one candidate left in the race in any
party thats pro-victory.
What the hell does that even *mean*?
|4.26.08 @ 6:25PM|#
Well now theres only one candidate left in the race in any party thats pro-victory.
What the hell does that even *mean*?
It means we stay in Iraq, our troops sitting like ducks in a
shooting gallery, until the entire culture of Arabia evolves into
accepting participatory democracy with respect for human and
individual rights.
It might take a while.
the innominate one|4.26.08 @ 6:56PM|#
Travis - thanks. Was the Constitution Party (not the
Constitutional Party, as I initially misspelled it) the party that
got behind the ten commandments judge (Roy Moore, I think)?
Gene Berkman - I was unclear, the "they" I referred to getting
behind Ron Paul was the Constitution Party. I'm well aware of the
Libertarian Party's support for Paul, I hadn't heard about the
other. Thanks for the info.
VM - thanks
Elemenope|4.26.08 @ 7:17PM|#
OT: I dragged myself over to PBS.org to watch the entire
Jeremiah Wright interview with Bill Moyers.
It is well worth watching, regardless of one's religious or
political persuasion; I found it educational.
|4.26.08 @ 7:43PM|#
Neil:
Well now theres only one candidate left in the race in any
party thats pro-victory.
Its John McCain.
McCain seems to want to pursue the type of un-conservative
intervention that led to 9/11.
How do you define "victory" and how does it justify the continued
expense in money and American lives, as well as lost Iraqi lives at
the hands of our troops.
Neil|4.26.08 @ 7:50PM|#
Rick we'll have the same kind of victory we got in Korea where
South Korea is now a wealthy capitalist democracy.
Yes, Americans and Koreans died to make it that way but are you
going to tell me that wasnt worth it?
|4.26.08 @ 8:13PM|#
Neil,
Our troops should only be committed when it's necessary to the
defense of our liberty and lives and property.
As desirable as it is for others to enjoy capitalism (economic
liberty) as well, that does not serve as a good reason to make
war.
International communism was a serious threat to us. Iraq isn't and
never was. BTW, aren't you being kinda optimistic about what Iraq
is gonna look like?
Neil|4.26.08 @ 8:20PM|#
You are wrong. International Islamofascism as at least a big a threat as International Communism was.
Elemenope|4.26.08 @ 8:30PM|#
International Islamofascism as at least a big a threat as
International Communism was.
Your evidence for this is...
What, exactly?
Neil|4.26.08 @ 8:35PM|#
The Israeli athletes killed at Munich in 1973, the IRanians
taking our diplomats hostage in 1979, the Libyans bombing that
Pan-Am flight, the first world trade center bombing, the bombing of
the kobar towers, the bombing of our embassies, the bombing of the
USS Cole, 9/11, the Madrid attacks, the London attacks...
Do you want me to go on? I guess those aren't "threatening" enough
for you.
Elemenope|4.26.08 @ 9:07PM|#
I guess those aren't "threatening" enough for
you.
On the scale of nation-states, the events you describe are like the
thrashing tantrums of pathetic, powerless (desperate)
children.
Occasionally, even a manic six-year-old manages to kick his father
in the balls. Does that mean the father is threatened by the little
pipsqueak?
An arsenal of nuclear weapons in the megaton range and the ability
to deliver them transcontinentally at a moment's notice: that was
scary. See? USSR, scary. Compared to that, hijacking a plane and
knocking over buildings is like waving your dick in the wind.
Neil|4.26.08 @ 9:55PM|#
Sure Elemenope thats scary.
But you forget one difference between the Commies and
Islamofascists. The Soviet Union may have been incredibly,
diobolically evil but they weren't INSANE. They were never
suicidal.
Now, imagine Iran or Syria with the kind of capability the Soviet
Union had. Scary? Yeah, because they wouldn't care about nuclear
war they just want to see "Allah". Thats what we are fighting to
prevent from happening.
Elemenope|4.26.08 @ 10:01PM|#
Neil, what is your evidence that Iran is suicidal? They haven't
fought a war of aggression since before the United States even
existed. Considering that US troops occupy a great deal of land on
their borders, they've been fairly chill about it.
Their belligerence (if you could call it that) comes from a
relatively unsurprising desire to control the region of the world
they are in (can you say Monroe Doctrine, boys and girls?), and
instead of suicidally throwing troops at their adversaries, they
court their enemy's enemies and sell them weapons.
Pain in the ass? Sure. Suicidal? Think not.
Even Syria withdrew from Lebanon rather than get pummeled further.
Not exactly suicidal there, either.
Elemenope|4.26.08 @ 10:01PM|#
Thats what we are fighting to prevent from
happening.
And just what is this "we" thing, white man?
Neil|4.26.08 @ 10:06PM|#
Hey Elemenope, what do you think about Iran's President saying he wants to "wipe Israel off the map"? I take him at his word and say hes suicidal.
Neil|4.26.08 @ 10:07PM|#
"We" are the American people who must protect Western Civilization, particularly its outpost in the Middle East--the State of Israel.
Elemenope|4.26.08 @ 10:18PM|#
Hey Elemenope, what do you think about Iran's President
saying he wants to "wipe Israel off the map"? I take him at his
word and say hes suicidal.
Wanting something is different than doing it. Beyond that, taking
seriously the President of Iran on foreign policy is much like
looking to the NYC comptroller for foreign policy. The President of
Iran in their system is essentially a fucking PR cheerleader.
But you obviously knew that, Neil. Knowledgeable person that you
are.
Pablo Escobar|4.26.08 @ 10:24PM|#
That wiping Israel off the map quote was to appease the giggling
domestic gallery in Iran, and it's been taken out of context.
So what? The US of A has been threatening to bomb Iran for years.
Iran has every right to be offended. America has been isolating
Iran through sanctions, when they have made clear they want to be a
part of the global community. Time to take a look in the mirror.
Americans are the aggressors in the US-Iran relationship, not the
other way around.
Iran doesn't have a nuke yet, but probably will soon thanks to
American belligerence. Just like how the US pushed the North
Koreans itno acquiring a nuke. You think the 'axis of evil'
countries weren't a bit worried when Iraq was taken out? A nuke is
the only way to deter America from invading you these days.
Elemenope|4.26.08 @ 10:25PM|#
"We" are the American people who must protect Western
Civilization, particularly its outpost in the Middle East--the
State of Israel.
Israel has more than enough nuclear weapons to ensure its continued
survival in the face of threats from other nation-states. As for
stateless terrorism, well, clearly Israel is clearly way fucking
better than we are at handling it.
For the US to be the "defender of Israel" in this context is kind
of like an Olympic fencer being defended by a big dumb child with a
sharp stick.
---------
In non-Neil related news, apparently the mayor of Chicago wants to
make the M4 carbine the standard-issue primary firearm for all
police officers. That's fucked up.
|4.26.08 @ 10:26PM|#
The Israeli athletes killed at Munich in 1973, the IRanians
taking our diplomats hostage in 1979, the Libyans bombing that
Pan-Am flight, the first world trade center bombing, the bombing of
the kobar towers, the bombing of our embassies, the bombing of the
USS Cole, 9/11, the Madrid attacks, the London
attacks...
The first three weren't the works of "International Islamofascists"
-- the iranians in 1979 were Shiite fundamentalists not aligned
with our current enemy, the Israeli athletes were killed by secular
leftish Palestinians nationalists, and the Libyan government is
anti-Islamic fundamentalist.
But they are all enemies of israel in some way so I guess that
makes them whatever collective group you want them to be.
God, excuse me, G-d help us all.
Frankly the intermittent acts of terror described dont evince much
suicidal tendency (homicidal, yes) nor much power or skill.
economist|4.26.08 @ 10:44PM|#
I have a question: is Neil satirizing or is he serious? Because if he is serious, he's a fucking retard.
Elemenope|4.26.08 @ 10:51PM|#
economist --
Many people around here are nearly certain that Neil is some sort
of perverse performance art piece.
For my part, having met people like Neil in real life, I am not so
sure.
Kolohe|4.26.08 @ 11:16PM|#
383.8 to 125.7
Since most of the membership of third parties are 'not all there,'
I like how the CP lets a fraction of a member vote. :)
|4.26.08 @ 11:22PM|#
The International Islamofascism threat is simply large families of Muslims living down the street from you and working in increasingly influencial positions in America and especially in Europe. Almost 1 out of 3 humans are already in Islam. Their main weapon is "political correctness" like the homosexuals, but with very differrent results.
Ali|4.26.08 @ 11:52PM|#
Chuck- How many "large families of Muslims" live down the street from you? How many of them have you talked to?
Neil|4.27.08 @ 12:03AM|#
"
So what? The US of A has been threatening to bomb Iran for years.
Iran has every right to be offended. America has been isolating
Iran through sanctions, when they have made clear they want to be a
part of the global community. Time to take a look in the mirror.
Americans are the aggressors in the US-Iran relationship, not the
other way around.
"
Well now I know you're an America-hating leftist idiot I'll never
take seriously.
America isn't the problem, its the solution you self-lothing
leftist.
Come on man, read some Mark Steyn or listen to some Glen Beck.
|4.27.08 @ 12:15AM|#
We occupied Korea after rescuing them from invasion. We were the invaders in Iraq. This has lead to a different perception of our presence in Iraq vs Korea and has a lot to do with the level of local cooperation.
Ali|4.27.08 @ 12:16AM|#
OT: I dragged myself over to PBS.org to watch the entire
Jeremiah Wright interview with Bill Moyers.
It is well worth watching, regardless of one's religious or
political persuasion; I found it educational.
Elemenope- Agreed. Very educational indeed. That bit about
President Johnson and the fact that Wright served in the army is,
strangely enough, not discussed by Malkin and her sheep (looks at
Neil and Chuck).
Chris in NJ|4.27.08 @ 12:42AM|#
the transideological coalition to get Alan Keyes to shut
up
best line ever published in Reason
|4.27.08 @ 2:22AM|#
Neil:
You are wrong. International Islamofascism as at least a big a
threat as International Communism was.
"Jumped the Shark" Isn't that the expression? Whatever, you just
lost any credibility on foreign policy matters. "Islamofascism" is
a slogan. You sound like the neocons or FOX. Unable to defend our
government's tragic and needless war in Iraq, you pathetically try
the "Islamofascism" boogie.
"We" are the American people who must protect Western
Civilization, particularly its outpost in the Middle East--the
State of Israel.
You aren't a conservative, Neil. Remember the founder's warnings
against debilitating foreign entanglements? If the founders of our
republic could read this thread, they would be urging the rest of
us to humiliate you so as to diminish any effect that you might
have on foreign policy.
BakedPenguin|4.27.08 @ 2:41AM|#
Rick - give it up. Someone that clueless is incapable of feeling shame. Stick him in the filter and avoid the stupidity. It may not be catching, but it sure is annoying.
|4.27.08 @ 3:11AM|#
Neil:
The Israeli athletes killed at Munich in 1973
Motivated by the Israeli government's occupation, which our
government shamefully supports with our tax money.
the IRanians taking our diplomats hostage in 1979
Gee I can't imagine why Iranian theocrats would resent our
government.
the first world trade center bombing, the bombing of our
embassies.. 9/11
Our government's intervention in the mideast motivates attacks on
us. Our government's support of the Israeli government's occupation
of Palestinian land was the main motivation for the 9/11 attacks.
Note that the findings of the 9/11 commission reveal:
"Khalid Shaikh Mohammed, the man who conceived and directed
the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks, was motivated by his strong
disagreement with American support for Israel, said the final
report of the Sept. 11 commission."
http://www.kentucky.com/mld/heraldleader/news/nation/9222612.htm
the Madrid attacks, the London attacks...
The Spanish and British governments foolishly followed our
government into Iraq.
|4.27.08 @ 3:16AM|#
BakedPenguin,
Ok. At least for tonight.
I used to feel kinda sorry for him. But I'm at the end of my rope
as it were.
BakedPenguin|4.27.08 @ 4:13AM|#
Rick, believe it or not, I used to feel sorry for Dondero. Then
I saw a few of his hysterical, profane, and insulting rants and
realized why people were always slagging him.
FWIW, I think Dondero is a lot more useful than Neil, which should
give you a good idea what I think of Neil.
Shawn Levasseur|4.27.08 @ 7:11AM|#
I guess I should be thankful that Keyes didn't try to get the
Libertarian nomination.
Oh wait, there's still time for him to try that. I'd say it's a 25%
chance of him giving it a shot.
ed|4.27.08 @ 8:34AM|#
Gallon of gas: $3.75
Loaf of bread: $3.45
Arguing with strangers on the internet: Priceless.
|4.27.08 @ 9:14AM|#
Again: no one cares.
Is the journalistic flagship of the libertarian movement so
determined to sink itself into irrelevancy that it will spend most
of its time covering irrelevant candidates like Keyes and making ad
hominem attacks on McCain?
VM|4.27.08 @ 9:51AM|#
how many drinks does jkp require with that?
I can't decide whether it's four or five...
OR: JKP and NKEEL and EDWEIIIRRRDOOOO are all the same!!! (with
Juanita and probably Dan T)
Elemenope|4.27.08 @ 10:21AM|#
Gallon of gas: $3.75
Loaf of bread: $3.45
Dude, I have to ask (again), just wtf kind of bread are you buying
that it costs $3.45 a loaf? That's some seriously gourmet bread (or
you are getting ripped off).
|4.27.08 @ 12:27PM|#
From way upthread...
But you forget one difference between the Commies and
Islamofascists. The Soviet Union may have been incredibly,
diobolically evil but they weren't INSANE. They were never
suicidal.
Exactly. Which is why military buildups and shows of force were
helpful in dealing with the USSR, but completely ineffective when
dealing with al-Qaeda and the like.
Remember how our invasion of Iraq was supposed to show the Islamic
world we weren't weak, and thus hamper al-Qaeda's recruitment? How
did that work out?
|4.27.08 @ 12:29PM|#
Of course I shoulda punctuated thusly cuz there was more than
one founder:
Remember the founders' warnings against debilitating foreign
entanglements?
Neil|4.27.08 @ 12:37PM|#
Yeah Rick because America in 1790 is just like America in 2008,
and so is our position in the world. Get a clue!
So what are your preferred solutions? Leave Israel (the only
democracy in the middle east) in its own? Surrender in Afghanistan
and Iraq? Leave the oil to the Islamofascists?
Neil|4.27.08 @ 12:42PM|#
BTW what country is Canada occupying? Because they've planned
attacks there too along with Holland and Denmark.
Tell me all about Holland, Denmark, and Canada's imperialistic
colonialism. I guess thats why they want to attack them too
right?
Minion of URKOBOLD|4.27.08 @ 12:42PM|#
THE URKOBOLD HAS A SIMPLE SOLUTION.
SEND THE FUNCTIONAL EQUIVALENT OF KNEEL TO NEGOTIATE PEACE BETWEEN
THE KLINGONS AND JACOBIANS.
GET A CLUE, KNEEL!
VM|4.27.08 @ 12:48PM|#
Hokae.
the Dutch and Danish have historical interests in the Caribbean.
Denmark sold the Virgin Islands to the US.
Denmark was one of the largest slave trading nations. there's your
colonial. don't care if it's not what you meant, I just doubt you
knew that.
During the 60s, they imported labor from the middle east. There are
massive social problems between the "first generation immigrants",
that is, Denmark-born individuals whose parents are immigrants, and
ethnic Danes.
Stuff like that, and the "small dick" syndrome that Danes have
("Venstre Ungdom") are at the root of the cartoon controversy -
they were trying to show which culture was dominant, and they were
trying to provoke reactions - you'd see lots of smaller things
during the 90s that were up this alley.
And it's really funny listening to non danish speakers try to say
"rød grød med fløde"
don't think you knew that, either.
and FC København is a silly team, but for really racist fans
(monkey cheers, etc.), check out Brøndby.
next question?
Neil|4.27.08 @ 12:50PM|#
So you think the Danes should just roll over for the Muslims? Or what? Whats your solution?
|4.27.08 @ 12:51PM|#
Neil,
There's been somebody somewhere plotting an attack on every country
on the globe for hundreds of years, and this will continue to be
true as long as humans walk the earth.
What matters isn't the planning, what matters is the execution of
the plan. And the tiny percentage of the Islamic world that would
hate the US regardless of our foreign policy only have the
resources to carry out attacks because they're supported by the far
larger percentage that resents having their families killed and
homes destroyed by errant missiles, "isolated incidents" at Baghdad
checkpoints, and the US policy of treating the map of the Middle
East like it's a RISK board game, installing govts without regard
for the wishes of the people they'll be ruling.
Neil|4.27.08 @ 12:53PM|#
Chris we are giving regard to the Iraqis, we are giving them
Democracy.
Chris arent you scared of some Islamofascist group or country
acquiring nuclear weapons? What do you think theyd do to New York
or Chicago with that?
javier|4.27.08 @ 1:45PM|#
arent you scared of some Islamofascist group or country
acquiring nuclear weapons?
That is the problem with the neocons. They are all cowards who wet
the beds constantly having bad dreams of boggiemen. Does Neil have
military experience? I doubt it. He is too big of a coward to
defend the things that HE claims need to be defended.
So, am I scared of "Islamofacists"? NO!!!! I am more scared of
getting struck by lightning.
Naga Sadow|4.27.08 @ 1:54PM|#
Neil,
Not that I care about your thread, but one detail stood out to me.
Are you seriously worried about leaving Israel on its own? The IDF
is a war machine. Even the nukes are really not needed, just
insurance.
|4.27.08 @ 2:08PM|#
Neil :
Yeah Rick because America in 1790 is just like America in 2008,
and so is our position in the world.
That's not an argument against this wisdom of the founders. You
have to show why their admonitions against foreign entanglements no
longer hold. It seems with all the lethal blow-back, the founders
warnings are even better taken now. I think that you're just
dodging like when you didn't provide a defense of the Iraq war but
instead grabbed the silly "islomofacist" boogy and shook it at
us.
So what are your preferred solutions? Leave Israel (the only
democracy in the middle east) in its own?
Our government should not be forcing us to give our money to the
Israeli government. Israel is a wealthy industrialized nation that
can take care of itself. What's more is that our government is
paying for the Israeli government's brutal occupation of Palestine.
This is why we were attacked on 9/11. Also, Lebanon has a
democratic process about as free as Israel's
Surrender in Afghanistan and Iraq? Leave the oil to the
Islamofascists?
That's almost as dumb as your comment that Islamofascism as at
least a big a threat as International Communism was. The shaking
the Islamofascism boogy is not a real argument that's worthy of
response, even if you also invoke oil at the same time. Also,
Afghanistan doesn't produce much oil.
BTW what country is Canada occupying? Because they've planned
attacks there too...
Provide some evidence so that we may evaluate the merit of what
you're saying.
Note that the chief exporter of pornography into the Arab
world is Sweden. The Islamic clerics complain bitterly, but of
course there were no 9/11 attacks on Stockholm. It took our
government's interventionist aggression especially the taxpayer
funding of the Israeli government's occupation of Palestinian land
to motivate 9/11.
Naga Sadow|4.27.08 @ 2:12PM|#
Rick,
Sweden? Really? Wow . . . there seems to be some kind of cultural
trend there that I don't get.
Neil|4.27.08 @ 2:16PM|#
Rick Washington made that one speech at a time when a war with either France or Britain wouldve meant the end of our nation itself in the event of a defeat. We were too weak and too small to carry out any kind of war or dynamic foreign policy. That just isnt the case today.
Neil|4.27.08 @ 2:17PM|#
BTW most Palestinians think the State of Israel itself is an "occupation" and want to drive them into the sea. When they talk about "occupation" and "Palestine" they dont mean just Ramallah and East Jerusalem, they mean Tel Aviv and Hafia.
|4.27.08 @ 2:28PM|#
Neil,
Funny you should say that, since you seem to think that withdrawing
from Iraq and Afghanistan would spell doom for our nation now.
|4.27.08 @ 2:36PM|#
Neil,
Washington, Madison, Jefferson and other of the founders of our
republic warned against foreign entanglements many times. Many of
them came to this and other of their appreciations of liberty via
their wide study of history.
BTW- This is quite interesting:
"Books the Founders Read, Part 1 (of 8)"
(Part 1 has some tech probs)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Bc_eJQ9fqc&feature=related
VM|4.27.08 @ 2:45PM|#
Kneel -
if you actually knew anything about the roed groed med floede,
you'd know exctly what I proposed.
if you're really that stupid about Denmark, why did you even bother
bringing it up?
gud hvor er Du tyk...
|4.27.08 @ 2:47PM|#
Neil:
BTW most Palestinians think the State of Israel itself is an
"occupation" and want to drive them into the sea.
I don't think that you can document that but many of them who were
ethnically cleansed from there homes would like their Right of
Return to come to fruition. The Israeli government acknowledges it
but continues a perpetual delay in any significant
implementation.
Neil|4.27.08 @ 2:50PM|#
Rick why dont the rich Arab oil states offer their "Arab brothers" asylum then? They could easily afford to give them asylum and citizenship since they're swimming in oil money. So why dont they? That would go a long way towards solving the refugee problem, and they would live in a country that has the same culture and religion.
Neil|4.27.08 @ 2:53PM|#
BTW the Palestinians couldve had their own state after 1948 but instead their "Brothers" in Egypt and Jordan occupied them. If they had set up a Palestinian state instead they could be celebrating their 60th anniversary of statehood rather than rotting in refugee camps.
Ali|4.27.08 @ 3:02PM|#
Neil-
If can't takes MI's upper peninsula (say, though you make the
argument in regards to 1812 just as well). Now America is a wealthy
nation. Should America just say "heck MI's UP is taken by force,
its people evacuated and moved elsewhere by force, we should just
sit back, watch, and accommodate the Canadians?" Now, God knows I
am against the use of force, but the Palestinians have every right
to demand the right of return.
If you ask, the real reason Arabs would not accomodate Palestinians
in their countries is that whenever that happened in the past, the
presence of Palestinians in these countries is slowly transformed
into a "permanent solution", especially given Israel's actions and
ever increasing barriers it puts on Palestinians.
Neil|4.27.08 @ 3:04PM|#
Ali there were many transfers in Europe after WWII. Poles were
moved into areas that used to be Germany, as well as Germans moved
from places in France and Poland into Germany. They seemed to get
over it.
There are dozens of Arab countries but JUST ONE JEWISH COUNTRY in
the world.
Ali|4.27.08 @ 3:04PM|#
That would go a long way towards solving the refugee
problem, and they would live in a country that has the same culture
and religion.
But Palestinian's culture if founded in the historical land called
Palestine. Believe it or not, Palestinian culture is very different
from the Egyptian, the Jordanian, the Lebanese and the Syrian. To a
twit like yourself all these cultures may look the same. But they
are as varied as Europeans have different cultures (French, German,
English, etc).
Plus, a good % of Palestinians are Christian, you idiot.
Neil|4.27.08 @ 3:06PM|#
And there are many different Jewish cultures and they all managed to get along in Israel. So why couldnt Palestinians make new lives in Kuwait or Qatar or Egypt or the UAE?
|4.27.08 @ 3:06PM|#
Neil,
There are now many countries in the world where Jews would be
welcome. I mean, should we pick an unlucky populace to clear out so
as to make a Gypsy homeland, and a Falun Gong homeland, and a
Jehovah's Witness homeland, etc?
Ali|4.27.08 @ 3:06PM|#
Ali there were many transfers in Europe after WWII. Poles
were moved into areas that used to be Germany, as well as Germans
moved from places in France and Poland into Germany. They seemed to
get over it.
One wrong does not justify another.
There are dozens of Arab countries but JUST ONE JEWISH COUNTRY
in the world.
And there is one Palestinian country, too.
You see, your problem is that to you, you just see "Arabs". Again,
"Arabs" are as varied and culturally diverse as is Europe.
Ali|4.27.08 @ 3:08PM|#
And there are many different Jewish cultures and they all
managed to get along in Israel.
Haha, they do? Do you know how African Jews from Ethiopia and Arabs
Jews treated in Israel?
|4.27.08 @ 3:08PM|#
So why couldnt Palestinians make new lives in Kuwait or
Qatar or Egypt or the UAE?
I'm not saying they couldn't. But whether they should be FORCED to
do so is another matter, sort of like Ali's point about the Upper
Peninsula.
Neil|4.27.08 @ 3:08PM|#
If its so different Ali why did Egypt and Jordan annex the West Bank and Gaza between 1948 and 1967?
Neil|4.27.08 @ 3:10PM|#
BTW was Egypt annexing Gaza and Jordan annexing the West Bank between '48 and '67 an "occupation" too?
Ali|4.27.08 @ 3:10PM|#
If its so different Ali why did Egypt and Jordan annex the
West Bank and Gaza between 1948 and 1967?
They placed it under their control as opposed to being taken by
Israel, and not their fear of Palestinians "taking it".
Ali|4.27.08 @ 3:11PM|#
Ali|4.27.08 @ 3:12PM|#
BTW was Egypt annexing Gaza and Jordan annexing the West
Bank between '48 and '67 an "occupation" too?
No, there was a large degree of acceptance by the Palestinians.
Ali|4.27.08 @ 3:12PM|#
So Chris you dont belive the State of Israel has a right to
exist?
Israel has every right not only to exist, but also to defend itself
from aggression.
Ali|4.27.08 @ 3:15PM|#
of course I should have added:
... but not at the cost of other peoples' private properties, human
rights, and human dignity.
Neil|4.27.08 @ 3:16PM|#
Chris lets say Roman Catholics were a very, very small minority (12 million Roman Catholics in the entire world) who had been repeatedly oppressed, victimized, and murdered throughout history in no matter what country they lived culminating in the gas chamber. Wouldn't it be rational for them to want a "Roman Catholic homeland" then?
Mad Max|4.27.08 @ 3:16PM|#
Naturally, from skimming this thread, it seems that a discussion
of Keyes' candidacy has logically and inevitably evolved into an
examination of the rights and wrongs of the Israel/Palestinian
situation.
From the standpoint of pure justice, it would seem that the
Palestinians who fled in 1948-49, never expecting their exile to be
permanent, cannot be said to have abandoned their right to their
real property in what is now the state of Israel, nor to have
abandoned their right to live on such property as their forebears
had done for generations.
The question is, what would be the cost, today, of enforcing that
right? Would it *create* more injustices than it would remedy? I
suspect so, given the attitudes of the Arab countries of the
region, the putative enforcers of the Palestinians' rights. No way
the Israelis are going to consent to a nonviolent solution, so it's
either compensate the exiles and tell them to suck it up, or allow
even greater violence and injustice.
As to the Occupied Terrotories, taken in 1967, that's a different
situation. While the Israelis have never been willing to allow the
1948-49 exiles to return, they have often shown a willingness to
compromise as to the territories taken in 1967. The Arab/Muslim
powers, and the Palestinian (mis)leaders, have persistently refused
to exploit this willingness (thought the Egyptians took advantage
of the Israelis' compromising spirit to get back the Sinai).
We can fairly say that, whatever the sympathetic situation of the
Pals, their leaders, and their putative friends in the Arab/Muslim
world, have never missed an opportunity to miss an opportunity.
That is, assuming that a negotiated peace is their sincere
aspiration, which seems doubtful.
This is not to say that the U.S. should be in the business of
pulling the Isralis' chestnuts out of the fire. But if we're going
to yak about the issue, let's be realistic about where matters
stand.
|4.27.08 @ 3:17PM|#
I believe the creation of Israel in 1947 was a huge mistake, as
are most emotionally-driven geopolitical decisions. But
unfortunately it's a done deal now -- current Israelis can no more
be faulted for it than current Americans can be faulted for their
forefathers taking land from the Natives.
But while I think Israel has as much right to exist as any other
nation, that doesn't entitle them to military support from the US.
They have the right (and the demonstrated ability) to defend their
existence, no more and no less.
Neil|4.27.08 @ 3:18PM|#
"But while I think Israel has as much right to exist as any
other nation, that doesn't entitle them to military support from
the US. They have the right (and the demonstrated ability) to
defend their existence, no more and no less."
So I guess you were against the First Gulf War since a small nation
(Kuwait) was invaded by a much larger and more powerful one? I
mean, they have no right to be protected by the international
community according to your logic right?
|4.27.08 @ 3:19PM|#
Wouldn't it be rational for them to want a "Roman Catholic
homeland" then?
They might want it, yes. But if doing so meant kicking other people
off of their land, I don't think good Catholics would want that,
and the international community had better not support it in any
case.
Mad Max|4.27.08 @ 3:20PM|#
Neil,
We Catholics "have no permanent city," but if you want to offer us
America as our Zion, I think we could greatly improve the
place.
|4.27.08 @ 3:21PM|#
I was in like second grade during the First Gulf War, so I don't
know if I was against it or not. But in retrospect, it doesn't
appear to have been justified, no.
Now, if an international community of volunteers wanted to go in
there and kick Saddam out, more power to them...but that's not what
our Armed Forces are for.
Neil|4.27.08 @ 3:22PM|#
Look, "Palestine" once consisted of what is now Israel, the West
Bank+Gaza plus Jordan.
The British divided it into an Arab area (Jordan) and a area for a
Jewish homeland (Palestine).
So already, the Palestinians get half the territory.
Even after that, in 1948, the Jews were willing to accept a UN
solution that would've given the Arabs HALF of what is now
Israel/Palestine proper. And they STILL rejected it and tried to
drive the Jews into the sea.
So the Arabs live on the vast majority of the territory that was
considred Palestine when you count Jordan.
|4.27.08 @ 3:23PM|#
Mad Max,
What about Vatican City?
The Swiss Guards would eat the IDF for breakfast, and still have
room for biscuits and gravy.
Neil|4.27.08 @ 3:23PM|#
Even today Israel is 20% Arab. There is a larger percentage of
Arabs in Israel than African Americans in the United States!
How many Jews are welcomed in Arab countries? That says a lot right
there, doesn't it?
|4.27.08 @ 3:25PM|#
Neil,
So you wouldn't have a problem with the Chinese deciding to give
the western half of the US to make a Falun Gong and Tibetan
homeland, would you? I mean, you should be happy to still have half
your land!
Neil|4.27.08 @ 3:27PM|#
Utah is essentially Mormon homeland I dont see anyone raising a stink about that.
Neil|4.27.08 @ 3:29PM|#
Chris, was it wrong for the United States to object to the
occupation of China by Japan in the 30s?
What about Hitler taking over Czechoslovakia?
Dont you think larger nations have a moral responsibility to defend
smaller ones from agressors?
POLY SCI PHILO GURU to URKOBOL|4.27.08 @ 3:31PM|#
DO LARGER PEOPLE HAVE A MORAL RESPONSIBILITY TO SNEEZE IN THE SALAD AT OLD COUNTRY BUFFET IN EFFORTS TO PREVENT THEIR OBESITY FROM SPREADING?
|4.27.08 @ 3:36PM|#
Dont you think larger nations have a moral responsibility to
defend smaller ones from agressors?
No. But if you feel such responsibility, put on a helmet, grab a
rifle, and book a flight to the oppressed small nation of your
choice.
Ali|4.27.08 @ 3:40PM|#
Dont you think larger nations have a moral responsibility to
defend smaller ones from agressors?
So the US should have defended the Palestinians when Israel
declared itself a state on what was largely Palestinian lands,
no?
Mad Max|4.27.08 @ 3:41PM|#
Chris Potter,
Vatican City wasn't meant as a Catholic homeland - it was a partial
(and inadequate) restoration of the Papal patrimony seized by force
by the Italian state in the late 19th century.
Hollywood used to have a claim to being the Catholic Zion. During
the days when the Hays Code was rigorously enforced by the Catholic
Joseph Breen (1934-1954), Hollywood was, by a curious coincidence,
going through a Golden Age. Breen often edited scripts to make them
more moral *and* artistically superior - however, he didn't get
screen credit.
Ungrateful Hollywood types love to whine about how a handful of
Stalinists were denied screen credit for their work because they
were "blacklisted" for their repugnant philosophies, but none of
these folks lament the denial of screen credit to Breen in picture
after picture.
Oh, well, the movies were liberated from their Catholic bondage,
right? And now filmmakers are free to pursue their artistic vision
without constraint. Curious how their artistic vision tends to
involve boobs and bathroom humor. But what price is too high to pay
for art?
|4.27.08 @ 3:53PM|#
Mad Max,
I was joking about the Vatican City being a Catholic homeland, but
I'm serious when I say that losing the Papal States and nearly all
the Pope's former secular powers was the best thing to happen to
the Catholic Church in the last 500 years or more. It means fewer
distractions from the pope's primary duties, and makes it much less
likely that an impious but power-hungry person will try to seize
control of the Papacy, as often happened in previous centuries.
VM|4.27.08 @ 4:00PM|#
Kneel still needs to show that he actually knows something
substantial (beyond a dull talking point) about the situation in
Denmark.
Maybe perusing the author Ingeman might help alleviate his
embarrassing performance.
currently, Kneel, you're ranking slightly worse than that asshole
Clothier who tried that one time to correct the term "comparative
advantage". and you've managed to bottom that.
kudos!
|4.27.08 @ 4:09PM|#
Ali, It is heartwarming to read you referring to idiots as
idiots. I know you as a polite and thoughtful poster here, bit it
is difficult to try and have civil disussions with folks that are
clueless about the world and loud when displaying their
ignorance.
Little known fact: If the Canadians take the UP, they have to keep
the Yoopers. They'll never invade knowing that.*
* I keed, I keed. The UP is a wonderful place to spend some
vacation time. When a buddy and I were driving cross country, the
stem on the radiator seperated from the body, leaving us stranded
in the UP (we thought). A nice old gent who owned a gas station
welded it back on and refused payment because "I wasn't doing
anything anyways".
Mark Dankof|4.27.08 @ 4:13PM|#
I am a former US Senate candidate for the Constitution Party in Delaware. We discussed Mr. Keyes's demise on my Republic Broadcasting Network radio show this AM at www.republicbroadcasting.org. I wish I had seen Reason's post before that broadcast, as your description of the "transideological coalition to get Alan Keyes to shut up" is the best summation I've seen anywhere of what happened in Kansas City this weekend. My own editorial in Al Bawaba (Amman, Jordan) may be of interest to your readers.
|4.27.08 @ 4:20PM|#
Neil:
Rick why dont the rich Arab oil states offer their "Arab
brothers" asylum then? They would live in a country that has the
same culture and religion.
The Palestinians would like to live in their own land. It's more
fair to have the Israeli government pull out of Mandatory Palestine
(from the British Mandate that created Israel) and give it back to
the Palestinians,
They would live in a country that has the same culture and
religion.
The Palestinians have the 2nd highest portion of their population
that is Christian of the Arab countries. Lebanon has the highest.
The Palestinians have a separate culture from other Arab countries
and there is even a separate Palestinian dialect of Arabic:
http://www.flashcardexchange.com/flashcards/view/450724
|4.27.08 @ 4:26PM|#
Neil:
Even today Israel is 20% Arab. There is a larger percentage of
Arabs in Israel than African Americans in the United
States!
Yeah and Sharon supported a "Jews only" housing law on government
land in open discrimination against these folks.
Ali|4.27.08 @ 4:33PM|#
J sub D-
I had to call him an idiot. Interestingly, I thought I'd feel some
remorse, but there was none!
I did not know what a yooper is, but now I do. I wish I could
become one. What does it take?
Ali|4.27.08 @ 4:36PM|#
BTW, I have been all over the central and eastern part of the UP. I do wish to live there --nice (and few!) people and beautiful outdoors.
Ali|4.27.08 @ 4:38PM|#
Mark-
My own editorial in Al Bawaba (Amman, Jordan) may be of
interest to your readers.
Hmm, interesting!
|4.27.08 @ 4:52PM|#
I did not know what a yooper is, but now I do. I wish I
could become one. What does it take?
A pickup truck with a block heater and snowplow attached, A 30.06
deer rifle and a love of pasties. It also helps to be
a Green Bay Packers fan.
|4.27.08 @ 5:05PM|#
Sound like a bunch of nimrods.
Mighty hunters before the LORD? Nah, but good folks, living in
beautiful, albeit cold, country.
Ali|4.27.08 @ 5:05PM|#
There is an NFL team in Green Bay? There're like 100k people there only. Why not Milwaukee. Very weird.
Ali|4.27.08 @ 5:06PM|#
And the people there aren't like rednecks or something, right? Based on my experience, good rugged individuals.
BakedPenguin|4.27.08 @ 5:07PM|#
Kneel still needs to show that he actually knows something substantial (beyond a dull talking point) about the situation in Denmark.
Moose, I'm all for slagging Kneel, but be fair. Nobody
knows anything about Denmark, except for a few assorted Danes and
yourself. Everyone else just assumes it's a low-rent Sweden.
The nomination instead went to the antiwar conservative Chuck Baldwin, by a vote of 383.8 to 125.7.
There are 509.5 CP delegates?
|4.27.08 @ 5:14PM|#
Ali, the whole Green Bay Packer franchise is an unusual story. This account is somewhat uncritical, but fairly accurate.
BakedPenguin|4.27.08 @ 5:20PM|#
Oops. I was picking something up off the floor when that went over my head.
Ali|4.27.08 @ 5:21PM|#
12 championships (incl. 3 Super Bowls)? Who would've thunk it? But seriously (I will have to read that link still), how can they afford an NFL team with such a small city/town. I mean, Ann Arbor MI has more people than Green Bay.
BakedPenguin|4.27.08 @ 5:29PM|#
Ali, the NFL wasn't always the biggest sport in the US, and sports weren't as huge money bins pre-television. IIRC, the city got the franchise after putting up $100,000.
|4.27.08 @ 5:35PM|#
Ali,
Packer fans own shares of the team, and they consistently vote
against taking dividends. So unlike most teams, there's no owner
skimming profits off the top, so the team spends 100% of its
revenue on operations.
Ali|4.27.08 @ 5:36PM|#
But how can they afford to buy good players today? I guess its all about TV broadcasting as opposed to just stadium attendance. I'd be surprised if all 100k residents of Green Bay would attend GBP games. That wouldn't even match UM's 116k attendance capacity (which they get a few times every season I think).
Ali|4.27.08 @ 5:38PM|#
I think Chris just answered my question.
Hey, where did Neil go? We need you buddy as we're almost out of
topics to discuss and I am sure you can add some fun to any
discussion.
|4.27.08 @ 5:39PM|#
Here's a great Peter Bagge cartoon from a Reason issue of a few years ago which was primarily about publicly-funded sports stadia, that talks about the Packers' ownership system.
|4.27.08 @ 5:41PM|#
The NFL does revenue sharing (collectivism, gasp!) to a far
greater extent than other big time sports leagues. The Pack has a
bid enough local fan base to sell out their home games, Tv revenue
is all networks and shared so they can get away with it.
BTW, I don't know if they still do, but the Packers used to play
one home game a year in Milwaukee.
|4.27.08 @ 5:45PM|#
J sub D,
I don't think they do that any more...but on that note, the Buffalo
Bills are talking about playing a couple of "home" games in Toronto
in future seasons. Of course, the Canadian govt is prepared to
throw a fit about any NFL team even thinking about trying to
compete with the 110-yard league on Canadian soil...
|4.27.08 @ 5:47PM|#
Hey, where did Neil go?
That is bad mojo, Ali. When you speak a GOP fellaters name, he will
likely appear.
|4.27.08 @ 5:49PM|#
Of course, there's also the added issue of how many NFL players would be denied entry into Canada due to criminal records, but we'll cross that bridge when we come to it, I guess.
Kolohe|4.27.08 @ 5:50PM|#
The other thing to keep in mind with the economics of the Green
Bay franchise is the fact of their uniqueness as a 'small town
team' gives them a comparative advantage - granted one that is only
maintained based on with their legacy. It's kind of the same thing
with Fenway & Wrigly will soon be the only pre WW2 ballparks in
the major leagues.
Plus, Greenbay to Milwakee is a little over a two hour drive, which
is fairly moderate by the standards of the Big Ten (or SEC) weekly
football pilgrimages, for for that matter NASCAR.
|4.27.08 @ 5:54PM|#
Chriss Potter,
I'd imagine so. I like the CFL. Lots of passing. Growing up in
Detroit with the CBC on channel 9, I got quite familiar with the
canuck game (curling too).
Having the Saskatchewan Roughriders and the Ottawa Rough Riders in
the same league was kind of ridiculous though.
Ali|4.27.08 @ 5:54PM|#
When you speak a GOP fellaters name, he will likely
appear.
Not even for the entertainment value?
|4.27.08 @ 5:56PM|#
Not even for the entertainment value?
He only has one act. It gets old really quick.
Ali|4.27.08 @ 5:58PM|#
He only has one act. It gets old really quick.
Hmmm. OK. Neil, please spare us.
|4.27.08 @ 6:10PM|#
Ali, I wouldn't go that far, but he'll almost assuredly be
better that the present boob in the White House.
Of course, Joe Shit the ragman would be an improvement as well.
Ali|4.27.08 @ 6:22PM|#
J sub D- For the sake of provoking Neil, I am willing to admit that I think Clinton would be the best president ever. In fact, for that matter, Joe S*** or Kucinich would be good too. All for Neil.
Ali|4.27.08 @ 6:24PM|#
BTW, J sub D, the Pistons are awful this time over. They have such an annoying sense of entitlement that they are really not playing any game to win. They seem to feel like the other teams owe it to them to loose. That team is done with a long time ago.
|4.27.08 @ 6:35PM|#
Ali, I still expect them to beat Philly. But there is no excuse for letting them win more than one game in the series. If Philly beats them, the coach is history.
VM|4.27.08 @ 6:49PM|#
Baked - jah. you're right.
but instead of Sweden, Dk is probably "low rent Norway"
"with no hills whatsoever"
|4.27.08 @ 7:32PM|#
Ali:
There is an NFL team in Green Bay? There're like 100k people
there only. Why not Milwaukee. Very weird.
I know that they, at least, used to play some of their games in
Milwaukee. BTW, our Broncos beat em in Super Bowl XXXII in January
1998. That was bitchin cool, even euphoric, for us here in
Denver.
|4.27.08 @ 7:34PM|#
Also BTW, before the Dems have their convention here in late August and ponder their plans to attack economic liberty and thus prosperity, the Libertarian Party will be returning here to Denver, the city of its founding, for its convention over Memorial Day weekend in late May. This promises to be the far more intelligent and stimulating convention.
|4.27.08 @ 7:41PM|#
I want to note for my friend, VM, three posts up, that while I was talking football, I refrained from speaking of a certain episode in Bronco history whose initial is "D" and happened in Cleveland...
|4.27.08 @ 8:09PM|#
If there were an NFL team in Milwaukee, they would probably play the Bears every year, and so many Bears fans would drive up for the game in Milwaukee that it would be like a road game. (just like when the Brewers and Bucks play the Cubs and Bulls)
Mad Max|4.27.08 @ 8:51PM|#
Chris Potter,
Incidentally, I knew your Vatican City remraks were jokes, but I
was trying to see if I could get some kind of response from the
atheists and "recovering Catholics" on this forum.
I must acknowledge, however, that Neil has me beat when it comes to
provoking a response from the H&R community. I feel the pangs
of envy when I see that a Republican troll can elicit more replies
than my deliberate attempts to seed the discussion with
ultramontane Catholic talking points.
How do you do it, Neil? How do you get more responses with your
standard-issue GOP talking points than I get with my challenges to
every spiritual belief that H&R denizens hold dear?
What happened to Akira Mackenzie?
Neil|4.27.08 @ 9:46PM|#
Speaking of religion Obama has had a very difficult time winning
Catholics iin these primaries, another group that will hand victory
to McCain thanks to McCain's staunchly pro-life voting record and
beliefs.
BTW everyone Rev. Wright is giving a press conference tomorrow, Im
sure that will help out Obama a lot LOL.
Elemenope|4.27.08 @ 9:52PM|#
I was trying to see if I could get some kind of response
from the atheists and "recovering Catholics" on this
forum.
Honestly, speaking as an Atheist in America (the most Catholic
state in America, no less), Catholicism simply no longer provokes
the same reaction as it once did.
It's a combination of having gone soft these past few decades and
routinely finding themselves standing next to religious brethren
that make the Catholic Church in comparison seem far less
odious.
Hmmm..|4.27.08 @ 10:43PM|#
routinely finding themselves standing next to religious
brethren that make the Catholic Church in comparison seem far less
odious.
Well, aside from the whole child fucking thing.
And the Nazi Pope.
|4.27.08 @ 11:42PM|#
I thank Allah every day for giving me the strength and patience to "scroll filter" Neil.
JB|4.27.08 @ 11:57PM|#
Rick, for what it's worth, I've heard some Native Americans want their right of return granted. Are you going to leave your house, occupier?
|4.28.08 @ 12:30AM|#
JB,
In some cases the Natives here were certainly treated badly but
unlike the Palestinians vis a vis Israel, they are free to live in
America, and anywhere that they desire. Another difference is that
unlike the Palestinians' situation, where individual families owned
individual plots of land (I have a chess buddy whose family grew
oranges for 300 years near what is now TelAviv until they were
forced off their land by proto-Israelis with guns upon the founding
of the state of Israel) many of the tribes of Native Americans were
nomadic. But the Native Americans still collectively used the land
and had it taken away from them.
Elemenope|4.28.08 @ 7:23AM|#
Well, aside from the whole child fucking thing.
If you think that that mess was confined to Catholic priests and
church policy, you are sorely mistaken. Many parishioners of
Protestant denominations report similar abuse (and lack of proper
official follow-up) as that which has famously occurred in Catholic
communities.
And the Nazi Pope.
I find it fairly hard to blame a seventy-year-old man for his
affiliations as a twelve-year-old.
herodotus|4.28.08 @ 7:30AM|#
OK. Everyone, just ignore Neil and all of the rest of the
pro-war people that you think are obvious idiots and tell me:
You are magically transported back to early 9/11 and are magically
made president.
Exactly what is your clever response to the attacks of that
day?
I eagerly await the flowers of diplomatic wisdom that are about to
blossom below.
Elemenope|4.28.08 @ 7:46AM|#
Exactly what is your clever response to the attacks of that
day?
I eagerly await the flowers of diplomatic wisdom that are about to
blossom below.
Actually, Bush wasn't doing so badly up until the Axis of Evil
speech. Leaving out the PATRIOT Act (which was bad, natch; just
look at the acronym. Only evil acts have clever acronyms), given
the great amount of international support for rooting out the
"evildoers", we could have gone into Afghanistan much like we did,
and done it right instead of getting distracted by that damn fool
unrelated distraction called Iraq.
tarran|4.28.08 @ 8:06AM|#
To add to Elemonope's comment,
If the U.S. Government hadn't subordinated fighting the Taliban to
its War on Some Drugs, it might have gotten more support by Afghani
farmers.
Mad Max|4.28.08 @ 8:23AM|#
Hmmmm. .
"Well, aside from the whole child f___ing thing.
"And the Nazi Pope."
Oh, thank God, I thought everyone on H&R had gotten
jaded.
Yes, it's scandalous that some priests not only violated their vows
of chastity, but confused the Church with ancient Athens, where it
was acceptable for grown men to have sex with teenage boys. It's
also scandalous that many members of the American hierarchy tried
to pull a Watergate and cover up for the guilty priests.
Fortunately, the American hierarchy is belatedly responding to the
problem with its safe environment policies, and Rome has also
helped by banning homosexuals from the priesthood.
Another fortunate development is that the secular forces have (for
the moment) acknowledged that it's actually harmful and wrong in
itself for grown men to have sex with teenage boys. Had it not been
for the propaganda opportunities provided by the Catholic scandals,
the secularists would be well on the way toward legitimizing such
relationships - see the glorification of the aforementioned
Athenians. Give them a decent interval, and the secularists will be
back to trying to legitimize such behavior.
Of course, it's also a dreadful scandal that the Pope, as a
teenager, didn't have the guts to martyr himself by refusing
mandatory service in the Hitler Youth. And what a shame that Pope
John Paul II, a Polish man who lived through the occpation of his
country and lost friends to the National Socialist murderers, would
have overlooked this "Nazi" scandal and made then-Cardinal
Ratzinger a top Vatican official. I suppose this means that secular
Americans are just more sensitive to the evils of National
Socialism than a Pole who survived the hellish German occupation of
his homeland.
Recovering Catholic|4.28.08 @ 8:37AM|#
Oh, and you saying homosexuals have been "banned" from the priesthood is not true. Thats like the Iranian President when he said "Iran doesn't have gay people". They've only banned OPENLY gay people, its impossible to ban closeted gays--which the Catholic priesthood is full of.
Mad Max|4.28.08 @ 8:39AM|#
"Honestly, speaking as an Atheist in America (the most Catholic
state in America, no less), Catholicism simply no longer provokes
the same reaction as it once did.
"It's a combination of having gone soft these past few decades and
routinely finding themselves standing next to religious brethren
that make the Catholic Church in comparison seem far less
odious."
I'm glad to see that you've relaxed your vigilance, but not all
atheists/secularists have done so where the Church is
concerned.
If you doubt the power of good old-fashioned anti-Papist sentiment,
you need only consult the articles and posts of *Reason* staff on
the magazine's website. Especially when the person under discussion
is the present Pope, or William Donohue.
Buford D. Turnipseed, Jr.|4.28.08 @ 8:40AM|#
"Mad Max, are you Bill Donahue?"
I'm Bill Donohue's more irritable, less conciliatory cousin.
Mad Max|4.28.08 @ 8:41AM|#
WTF, how did my handle change like that? Squirrels? Or something
More Sinister? Anyway,
"Mad Max, are you Bill Donahue?"
I'm Bill Donohue's more irritable, less conciliatory cousin.
Elemenope|4.28.08 @ 8:42AM|#
Fortunately, the American hierarchy is belatedly responding
to the problem with its safe environment policies, and Rome
has also helped by banning homosexuals from the
priesthood.
Thereby undertaking the all time stupidest purge unrelated to the
problem ever.
As a gay professor once put it to the class: "I'm gay. That means I
want a *man*. Not a boy." Being Catholic, he also went on to
describe how structurally suicidal it would be for the church to
purge homosexuals from the priesthood, since apparently there are
quite a few of them.
Not for nothing, but most molestation (including man-boy
molestation) is perpetrated by a heterosexual, usually male.
Mad Max|4.28.08 @ 8:43AM|#
No, it's not like Ahmednutjob saying there aren't gays in Iran. It's like a police department saying they will no longer recruit officers who belong to the Ku Klux Klan. Not to say that some KKK members won't slip through the net, but they'll try not to hire them.
Reocvering Catholic|4.28.08 @ 8:43AM|#
I will say fundamentalist Catholics are a lot less irritating
and/or scary to me than fundie Protestants/Evangelicals.
It wasn't a Catholic who used to stand in the middle of my
university commons every spring when I was in college with a sign
the size of a sail and scream that we were all going straight to
hell.
Mad Max|4.28.08 @ 8:50AM|#
"Not for nothing, but most molestation (including man-boy
molestation) is perpetrated by a heterosexual, usually male."
Which is why it's particularly disturbing that the American
Church's sex scandals were due to the misbehavior of gay priests.
It was not always thus - it used to be that sex scandals in the
Church tended to involve priests having consensual relations with
adult women. Unacceptable, to be sure, but it raises the question
of why things are different today - probably because there was such
a great inflow of gay priests in the 1960s and 1970s.
A fascinating book entitled *Goodbye, Good Men* shows how the PC
hierarchy in America, and the seminary administrations, actually
*discouraged* orthodox and morally correct candidates from being
ordained to the priesthood.
Mad Max|4.28.08 @ 8:51AM|#
"It wasn't a Catholic who used to stand in the middle of my
university commons every spring when I was in college with a sign
the size of a sail and scream that we were all going straight to
hell."
That's because Catholic propaganda is more subtle and
insidious.
Elemenope|4.28.08 @ 8:56AM|#
It wasn't a Catholic who used to stand in the middle of my
university commons every spring when I was in college with a sign
the size of a sail and scream that we were all going straight to
hell.
Man, those were the days...
I remember that the IVCF at my school was deeply intolerant of
fundie tools, and would often be the first in line to mess with
them on the quad. There's nothing like seeing the leader of your
local bible study holding hands and pretending to be gay with the
prayer organizer to encourage a spittle-filled denunciation from
the sign-carrying haters. What was better was when they got tired
of the hand-holding routine and whipped out their pocket non-KJV
bibles and shat all over their (I hesitate to call it)
theology.
Mad Max|4.28.08 @ 9:00AM|#
Now, now, let's not be hating on the poor Protestant
fundamentalists who are assigned to scream at the students.
I can imagine the conversation:
"Bob, we're sending you to the local college campus to denounce
their sinful, Hell-bound ways."
"But that's so dangerous! I will to look at scantily-clad coeds all
day and call them Jezebels!"
"No matter the risk, you must endure it for the Lord's sake."
"Oh, OK."
Elemenope|4.28.08 @ 9:23AM|#
"Bob, we're sending you to the local college campus to
denounce their sinful, Hell-bound ways."
"But that's so dangerous! I will to look at scantily-clad coeds all
day and call them Jezebels!"
"No matter the risk, you must endure it for the Lord's sake."
"Oh, OK."
"I'm here to rescue you from the peril!"
"Do you really have you?"
"Yes."
"Perhaps I could face just a little bit of peril..."
"No, no. Too perilous."
|4.28.08 @ 12:31PM|#
Mad Max,
Do you know any thoughtful, caring atheists, Catholics, Muslims,
Jews, Hindu's, or Protestants?
Because we all get along quite well in modern western society. If
you have a sectarian bug up your ass, remove it and STFU.
J sub D
Apostate Catholic
Paul|4.28.08 @ 12:55PM|#
True conservatives were pro-segregation and the Constitution party would be to if they were true conservatives. www.goodoleboybumperstickers.com
|4.28.08 @ 1:41PM|#
I don't see any problem with having homosexual priests, so long as they keep their chastity vows (just as heterosexual priests must). It is homosexual acts that Catholic theology condemns, not the orientation itself -- just like, while starting fights with people for no reason is sinful, just having a bad temper isn't.
Hacha Cha|4.28.08 @ 2:07PM|#
good news
but anyways to answer the question someone asked about the
difference between the libertarian party and the constitution
party: the constitution party is full of theocratic prohibitionists
and the libertarian party isn't.
Mad Max|4.28.08 @ 2:34PM|#
:Do you know any thoughtful, caring atheists, Catholics,
Muslims, Jews, Hindu's, or Protestants?"
Yes but, sadly, you're not on the list.
Caged Lion|4.30.08 @ 12:22AM|#
"the California delegation backed Keyes, a black man -- while
the party's two black state chairs were Keyes' leading opponents.
It's a complicated world, innit?"
Only if you think that blacks are a monolith, and only vote for
race, not their political/economic interests.
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