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"Kill your parents, that's where it's really at!"
With all this talk of former Weather Underground crackpots Bill Ayers and Bernadine Dohrn (see Steve Chapman's column from earlier today), it's perhaps worth revisiting Tim Noah's terrific thrashing of Ayer's embarrassing memoir/apologia for violent revolution, Fugitive Days. It is also worth mentioning that Noah attacked Ayers in August 2001—a few weeks before 9/11—though he revisited the book a few days after his notoriously ill-timed interview with the New York Times, in which he expressed regret for not having bombed more targets in the United States. Noah confessed that he wasn't "sure he's ever read a memoir quite so self-indulgent and morally clueless as Fugitive Days." He also reminds readers of Ayers' level of political and ideological sophistication:
Ayers omits any discussion of his famous 1970 statement, "Kill all the rich people. Break up their cars and apartments. Bring the revolution home, kill your parents, that's where it's really at." He also omits any discussion of his wife Bernardine Dohrn's famous reaction to the Manson killings, as conveyed by journalist Peter Collier: "Dig it. First they killed those pigs, then they ate dinner in the same room with them, then they even shoved a fork into a victim's stomach! Wild!" (In a 1993 Chicago Magazine profile, Dohrn claimed, implausibly, that she'd been trying to convey that "Americans love to read about violence.")
Read the whole thing.
shecky|4.21.08 @ 3:38PM|#
Like, wild in the streets, man.
There's nothing like stoking the embers of a forty year old culture
war.
Guy Montag|4.21.08 @ 3:43PM|#
then they even shoved a fork into a victim's stomach!
Wild!
Wasn't that victim the, then pregnant, Sharon Tate?
Episiarch|4.21.08 @ 3:49PM|#
If you didn't already know that these Weather Underground
assholes were malignant narcissists as opposed to actually
principled people, you should have guessed.
But overall, who cares? It won't sink Obama because a lot of people
will go "Weather Underground? Is that a band?" And the saddest
thing is that they will never afterwards give Weather Report a
chance because of this confusion.
Guy Montag|4.21.08 @ 3:52PM|#
Episiarch,
When record stors first began carrying CDs (way back in the 1980s),
Weather Report, sadly, was one of the first bands on the new
format. Forgot what their "long box" cover looked like back
then.
alan|4.21.08 @ 3:56PM|#
There's nothing like stoking the embers of a forty year old
culture war.
KULTUR WAR!
Anyone psyched about a new SEPULTURA album?
|4.21.08 @ 4:01PM|#
Does Ayers have any kids, and are they willing to do the country
a great service by following their father's urgings?
-jcr
Alex|4.21.08 @ 4:09PM|#
Me and my droogs could come over and show Bill some of the old ultra-violence.
|4.21.08 @ 4:11PM|#
Hilary may be calculating, but at least she's not this
politically tone-deaf. This is political tone-deafness on a
Dukasisoid scale.
Obama must think he walks on water (as much as his supporters do)
to believe that there'll be no political fallout from describing a
raving, paranoid preacher as a trusted spiritual advisor and a pair
of unrepentant ex-Weathermen as just a couple of college professor
neighbors.
If nobody on his staff ever saw a potential problem here, then the
Tony Rezko deal wasn't the end of his boneheadedness.
Abdul|4.21.08 @ 4:16PM|#
Kill all the rich people. Break up their cars and
apartments.
Obama, recently raking in $4 million in one year, is friends with
this guy? I hope Obama has a car alarm.
|4.21.08 @ 4:18PM|#
Dohrn claimed, implausibly, that she'd been trying to convey
that "Americans love to read about violence.")
Which is funny, because, not knowing anything else about the
context of her quote myself, I'd find it implausible that anybody
could say something like that for any other reason.
|4.21.08 @ 4:38PM|#
So, President McCain and Democrat Congress?
I can't even hope for gridlock anymore, since McCain seems so
willing to "cross the aisle".
Oh yah, and thanks Newt, for doing a commercial with Pelosi on
global warming. Just goes to show how the Rs keep stabbing
conservatives in the back.
Paul|4.21.08 @ 5:15PM|#
"Dig it. First they killed those pigs, then they ate dinner in the same room with them, then they even shoved a fork into a victim's stomach! Wild!"
That fact that people actually talked like that in the sixties is
proof enough as to just how completely high everyone was.
|4.21.08 @ 5:26PM|#
Ayers is a complete douche, but I'm unconvinced Obama is
sufficiently close to the guy for Ayer's douchebaggery to count
strongly against him.
Anyway, I really don't think there is anyone still in the
race who can last too long in the "how many scumbags have I hung
out with" game.
The Wine Commonsewer|4.21.08 @ 5:37PM|#
Weather Underground? Don't they do local weather forecast
widgets for websites?
Weather Report? Wow, I have two albums on vinyl.
From the Left|4.21.08 @ 5:39PM|#
The relentless search for and mindless commentary on anything that confirms libertarian dogma that this blog represents make me think you should really rename it: Sit and Run Off at the Mouth.
The Wine Commonsewer|4.21.08 @ 5:57PM|#
I had forgotten about the Kill your parents crap. I'm sure Joe will be by shortly to explain why Ayers should get a pass.
The Wine Commonsewer|4.21.08 @ 5:57PM|#
Sit and Run Off at the Mouth.
very clever, which, I suppose, is why you are doing just that.
|4.21.08 @ 5:59PM|#
It is really amazing how tolerant the left is of such people. It
would be only met if such an association cost Obama the
presidency.
I don't think it will, though. After all John Kerry's suffered no
apparent major harm from his membership in Veterans Against the
Vietnam war even though the group held a formal vote on whether or
not engage in a campaign of assassination against U.S. Senators who
supported the war. Granted Kerry left the organization either a
week before or a week after the vote but even so it would be
difficult to imagine a Republican surviving being a member of such
a group.
I think the problem is that people like Ayers really aren't that
radical compared to the left most 10% of the American spectrum.
Les|4.21.08 @ 6:09PM|#
It is really amazing how tolerant the left is of such
people.
Shannon, you consistently seem to think the worst folks on the left
are worse than the worst folks on the right.
As if plenty of folks on the right weren't/aren't tolerant of the
terrorist Contras or any one of the variety of anti-communist
mass-murdering dictators we propped up during the Cold War.
Folks on the right are tolerant of Luis Posada Carriles, the Cuban
terrorist who lives comfortably in Miami (and who killed a lot more
people than the Weather Underground).
There are sick bastards on the right and the left who are tolerated
by loyalists on both sides. To pretend otherwise is just plain
silly.
ed|4.21.08 @ 6:10PM|#
That fact that people actually talked like that in the
sixties is proof enough as to just how completely high everyone
was
You must be very young, Paul. "Everyone"? It wouldn't have been a
counterculture if everyone was stoned. In fact,
the so-called counterculture was a tiny minority of
anti-intellectuals who eventually grew up, got real jobs and raised
children who despised them. Pretty much like every generation that
preceded them.
|4.21.08 @ 6:17PM|#
It may well be that Ayers & Dohrn are the monsters the
current ginned up outrage on the right makes them out to be.
If so, it is curious that they have apparently become accepted
parts of the Chicago scene, with Ayers working for Daley, both
working as respected professors etc. & that their actions of 40
years ago have not caused all Chicago to reject and denounce
them.
Apparently, however, their extremely marginal association with
Obama now means they must be taken as the secret voices of his true
Red Masters, who will then impose One-World Government, Mandatory
Gay Marriage & Mandatory Abortions (some problems in that last
combination are being ironed out by the Comintern as we
speak).
I'm 49 & I remember the Weathermen from my childhood; I really
question whether anyone much younger than me possibly can be made
to care about this issue one way or the other. I also doubt that
this is likely to persuade anyone to change his/her mind; it may
fuel the outrage of the permanently Foxed, but no else cares.
|4.21.08 @ 6:23PM|#
Further on the likely traction of this issue with those older
than 49:
Both my parents (Dad 78, Mom 73), who were Nixon voters in the
Weatherman years, voted for Obama in the Maryland primary.
Neither is persuaded that Obama is a crypto-Red in the wake of the
Ayers "revelations".
Thin gruel.
|4.21.08 @ 6:39PM|#
Les,
Shannon, you consistently seem to think the worst folks on the
left are worse than the worst folks on the right
As much as I would like to cry, "a pox on both your houses," I
really think the left is far more tolerant of violence,
anti-democracy actions and anti-Americanism than is the
contemporary right.
Like I said, can you imagine a Republican presidential candidate
having jump started his political career by being a member of a
group that seriously considered assassinating public officials? I
cannot think of anything that comes close. Leftist were hysterical
that Bush might have dodged a few months of his service obligations
but they shrugged off the revelation that Kerry's group
debated whether or not to murder people for political
reasons.
Clearly, there is an unusual dynamic at work in the post-60's
American left that doesn't have a counterpart on current day
right.
|4.21.08 @ 6:52PM|#
The only two distinctions we need to worry about are between
those who would rule and those who would be ruled. Whatever "-isms"
the former espouse for purposes of seizing and holding power are
pretty much irrelevant. If the spectacle of former Trotskyites
remolding themselves into neoconservatives to seize the reins of
"the last remaining superpower" isn't illustration enough, I don't
know what could be. The people who crave to run the big machine
were in Moscow and Washington at the same time, and owed more
allegiance to each other than to their respective governments or
the "-isms" to which they were dedicated.
In the US, we allegedly have a government where the rulers are also
the subjects. But the only way that can POSSIBLY work is if the
subjects take seriously their duty to rule, by keeping a watchful
eye on the so-called "government servants" and exercising
appropriate political discipline when necessary. If you give up the
"ruler" part of your role as citizen, you'll only be left with the
"subject" part. The class of would-be rulers is more than happy to
step in to replace you.
Kolohe|4.21.08 @ 6:58PM|#
Like I said, can you imagine a Republican presidential
candidate having jump started his political career by being a
member of a group that seriously considered assassinating public
officials?
Does the Nixon Adminstration count?
|4.21.08 @ 7:04PM|#
The Weathermen also declared 1969 "The Year of The Fork", in
loving tribute to the murder weapon at the Tate-laBianca
Murders.
Sometimes, I suspect that the Left will not come back down to Earth
until the Boomers die off.
|4.21.08 @ 7:29PM|#
Shannon: Spot on.
Les: Add up everyone killed by the left and the right in the 20th
century. Even if you put the victims of the Nazis in the "right"
pile (which is arguable), the left wins, by far.
Kolohe: No, unless you know something about the Nixon
administration that I don't.
Re Ayers/Obama, I agree that by itself that relationship isn't
crucial, but it is a clue, and added in with all the other clues
about Obama's real beliefs, certainly seems to be of a pattern. He
seems to have hung out with/been attracted to radicals and
Communists of various stripes since childhood: his mother, father,
early mentor Frank Marshall Davis, reading Fanon in his
putting-out-cigarettes-on-the-dorm-hallway-carpet days, going to
socialist conferences, ACORN, Wright/Meeks/Phleger, etc., etc.
Neu Mejican|4.21.08 @ 7:45PM|#
papayaSF,
I believe Kolohe was referring to some of this...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_Kissinger#Accusations_of_war_crimes_and_legal_difficulties
Kolohe|4.21.08 @ 7:46PM|#
PapayaSF:
I was like 6 mo old when Nixon resigned, so basically no, I was
being a smartass. (But I'm sure there someplace on the web where I
could dig up some proposed plan that they brainstormed to get rid
of left-leaning but elected officials in the third world - albeit
it would be inseparable from paranoid conspiracy nonsense that I
would find on such a site.)
Also:
'... added in with all the other clues about Obama's
"real beliefs", certainly seems
to be of a pattern.'
just added the scare quotes that you missed.
highnumber|4.21.08 @ 7:47PM|#
Les: Add up everyone killed by the left and the right in the
20th century. Even if you put the victims of the Nazis in the
"right" pile (which is arguable), the left wins, by far.
Dumbest math ever!
Gimme a break.
Kolohe|4.21.08 @ 7:48PM|#
"paranoid conspiracy nonsense that I would find on such a
site."
or wikipedia, a distinction w/o a difference :)
(Thanks, Neu Mej.)
Neu Mejican|4.21.08 @ 8:07PM|#
Actually, it is Christopher Hitchens who has made the
case...
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1859843980/reasonmagazineA/
So not so much paranoid as sloppy drunk...but he at least points
you to the publicly available documents.
Plenty of skeletons on both sides for the pox on both their houses
argument to stand.
Neu Mejican|4.21.08 @ 8:12PM|#
Maybe we should use the Reagan administration instead?
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/amex/reagan/peopleevents/pande08.html
Unless, of course, the Contras were really non-violent political
organizers.
Travis|4.21.08 @ 8:13PM|#
Has anyone seen the documentary THE WEATHER UNDERGROUND? If you
can tolerate to watch how sympathetically Ayers & crew are
protrayed in that film. You get a pretty clear view that these are
just a bunch of deluded college kids that actually believed they
had the power to start a revolution to overthrow the American
Government.
Now Ayers is considered smart enough to get hired on as a
professor.
|4.21.08 @ 8:25PM|#
I'm in my mid-20s and didn't even know (or care) who this
asshole was, and I still don't.
FWIW Ayers has already said Obama is too far "Right" for him
(duh).
|4.21.08 @ 8:27PM|#
What is he a professor of exactly? I'm guessing English or some 1960s-inspired "studies" course.
Edward|4.21.08 @ 8:28PM|#
"Dumbest math ever!
Gimme a break."
Another insightful highnumber post.
Eat a dick, fuckwit.
|4.21.08 @ 8:42PM|#
"Another insightful highnumber post. Eat a dick, fuckwit."
We should just retire the award for best unintentional irony, or at
least give Edward some sort of career recognition award for the
countless posts like this one he's graced us with.
|4.21.08 @ 8:49PM|#
We should just retire the award for best unintentional irony, or at least give Edward some sort of career recognition award for the countless posts like this one he's graced us with.
Good idea, Sparky. What should we name this lifetime achievement
award for Hit & Run trolling?
Les|4.21.08 @ 8:54PM|#
Les: Add up everyone killed by the left and the right in the
20th century. Even if you put the victims of the Nazis in the
"right" pile (which is arguable), the left wins, by far.
Actually, all those people were killed by psychopaths. To group
those psychopaths by political ideology is silly as neither
socialism nor capitalism calls for the slaughter of political
opponents.
Shannon,
As much as I would like to cry, "a pox on both your houses," I
really think the left is far more tolerant of violence,
anti-democracy actions and anti-Americanism than is the
contemporary right.
Any member of the "contemporary right" who supports our actions
during the Cold War, including Reagan's actions (which I think most
do), is very tolerant of violence and anti-democracy, which were
the cornerstones of our foreign policy for the 45 years that
followed WW2.
Certainly the current war, which many conservatives will tell you
was based on lies and unnecessary for (if not detrimental to) U.S.
security, is supported mostly by those on the right.
It's not about which ideology. It's about individuals who value
ideology over a belief in peaceful solutions to political problems.
The left and right have their fair share of such individuals.
|4.21.08 @ 9:12PM|#
the so-called counterculture was a tiny minority of
anti-intellectuals
What really pisses me off about them, is that today they pretend to
be intellectuals. Even worse, there are plenty of colleges that
help them with that pretense.
"Professor" Angela Davis? Gag me.
-jcr
|4.21.08 @ 9:13PM|#
neither socialism nor capitalism calls for the slaughter of
political opponents.
That's half right. Capitalism doesn't call for the slaughter of
anyone, but socialists will happily murder anyone who stands in
their way.
-jcr
|4.21.08 @ 9:17PM|#
"Professor" Angela Davis? Gag me.
Amen! I say this as a liberal arts (history) major--it doesn't help
us out when you make people like that into "professors".
|4.21.08 @ 9:23PM|#
I suspect that the Left will not come back down to Earth
until the Boomers die off.
Where's Che or Pol Pot when you need them?
-jcr
Les|4.21.08 @ 9:29PM|#
Capitalism doesn't call for the slaughter of anyone, but
socialists will happily murder anyone who stands in their
way.
As is evident in all the murdered capitalists throughout
Europe.
Really, that's just bigotry, isn't it?
Les|4.21.08 @ 9:31PM|#
Mind you, I've heard the exact same sentiments in reverse from bigoted socialists.
Mad Max|4.21.08 @ 9:35PM|#
We hear from Ayers and his apologists about how he didn't kill
as many people as [insert name of righ-wing bogeypersons]. The
linked article shows that there's a key factor in the low
body-count of the Weathermen: They were marginal morons. They
didn't have the kind of popular support which made the IRA and the
PLO so influential in their respective communities. They were also
imbeciles, as indicated by the Weatherfreaks who blew themselves up
while preparing bombs to be used against U.S. soldiers.
We can envision a situation in which the Weatherpersons had greater
competence and greater support from the communities in which they
operated. If this had been the case, I do not doubt that there
would have been a higher body-count. Nor do I doubt that, if Ayers
and his cohorts had actually achieved state power, they would have
increased their body-count exponentially.
Today, Ayers and his supporters (and those whou would
"contextualize" his actions) point to the low body-count as showing
Ayers' superior moral virtue. I don't think so! If they'd had
command over an army and police force, they would have made Nixon,
Bush, etc. look like amateurs in the art of killing.
Ayers should thank God every night (and kiss Uncle Sam's ass) that
America isn't the repressive hellhole of his fevered fantasies -
instead, we're a flawed republic which actually cares about the
rights of criminal suspects - to the extent of letting terrorist
suspects like Ayers go free rather than violate their rights. There
are attempts to subvert these American principles today, but Ayers
is the last person to complain.
|4.21.08 @ 9:45PM|#
"Actually, all those people were killed by psychopaths. To group
those psychopaths by political ideology is silly as neither
socialism nor capitalism calls for the slaughter of political
opponents."
Okay, so Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, Castro, Kim Jong Il, were all
communist psychopaths. Works for me. I'd just like to know if there
are any communist NON psychopaths that you know of.
|4.21.08 @ 9:53PM|#
Well, highnumber, if the proposition is "the worst folks on the
left are worse than the worst folks on the right," how is it that a
simple comparative body count is so "dumb"? Please use your
superior intellect to enlighten us morons.
Les, you don't think there were murdered capitalists in Russia
starting in 1917 and Eastern Europe from 1945? And let's not forget
the Red Brigades, the Red Army Faction, etc.
|4.21.08 @ 9:55PM|#
the Nazis in the "right" pile (which is arguable)
The fact of the Nazis/Fascist being part of the right-wing isn't
seriously argued by anybody but two-bit right wing hacks.
Jonah Goldberg? Yeah, hes a real historical scholar. His book is
just a Google search on crack.
Fluffy|4.21.08 @ 10:19PM|#
Shannon,
With regard to Kerry's group "contemplating violence":
At this site, in the comments section, we talk about the theory
surrounding insurrectionary violence quite often.
That means that someone who wished to discredit you might say,
"Shannon Love was a poster at a website where anarchists regularly
talked about the merits of revolutionary violence in the
USA!"
Cesar -
All collectivisms belong on one side of the political spectrum. Or,
at least, having them all on one side makes infinitely more sense
than the conventional usage.
Attempting to graft a "left/right" political divide invented to
capture the alignments of a single moment in the history of the
French revolution on to all subsequent political divisions in
countries worldwide is what is done by "hacks".
Andy|4.21.08 @ 10:29PM|#
Yeah, another debate about left vs right or whether Nazis are
left or right will clear his all up. Almost as productive as the
"religion vs atheism" body count debate. Can't we just agree
(especially here) that concentrated State power in the hands of
people who don't have to answer to anyone leads to VERY bad
things?
Also, I now feel kinda deprived for not knowing any really
out-there hippie types. They sound like so much fun! I love how
they hate anything "immoral" or "fascist" about the right but then
you scratch the surface and they're just as moralistic and
totalitarian. The South Park guys said it well, the extremes on the
left and right are pretty much the same people.
Les|4.21.08 @ 10:39PM|#
Okay, so Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, Castro, Kim Jong Il, were all
communist psychopaths. Works for me. I'd just like to know if there
are any communist NON psychopaths that you know of.
I don't think Khrushchev was a psychopath. Nor was Gorbachev. I
don't know enough about Brezhnev or the other two guys who preceded
Gorbachev.
Les, you don't think there were murdered capitalists in Russia
starting in 1917 and Eastern Europe from 1945? And let's not forget
the Red Brigades, the Red Army Faction, etc.
I never suggested socialists never murdered capitalists. The
assertion I responded to was that "...socialists will happily
murder anyone who stands in their way."
That some socialists murdered some capitalists (just as some
capitalists have murdered socialists), in no way demonstrates that
all or most socialists will "happily murder anyone who stands in
their way." The statement is pure bigotry.
From the left|4.21.08 @ 10:46PM|#
Leftists tend to be a bit brainier. Marx is a lot harder to read than Ayn Rand. And then the left doesn't have all that goofy religious shit. The left has always had great appeal to bright youngsters. Until recently, leftists didn't indulge in unsophisticated conspiracy nonsense. The convergence of left and right in the 9/11 Truth movement may spell the end of the intellectual left. Probably too many leftists have intermarried with right-wingers, and the gene pool has been diluted.
Naga Sadow|4.21.08 @ 11:33PM|#
I think everyone is missing an important point here. If you have enemies, blow them up then talk some lefist radical trash and its like the crime never happened. Nothing quite like the feel of getting away with murder in the name of revolution.
Kolohe|4.21.08 @ 11:43PM|#
Until recently, leftists didn't indulge in unsophisticated
conspiracy nonsense.
Credit where credit is due, a lot of Marx is very sophisticated
conspiracy nonsense. For instance
"Capital is dead labor, which, vampire-like, lives only by sucking
living labor, and lives the more, the more labor it sucks. "
Plus the whole raging against the Bourgeoisie.
As an aside, the following is from the page I got the above quote;
is this for real or something like wikifun:
"Anyone who knows anything of history knows that great social
changes are impossible without feminine upheaval. Social progress
can be measured exactly by the social position of the fair sex, the
ugly ones included."
lower case j|4.21.08 @ 11:57PM|#
The left has always had great appeal to bright youngsters.
Marx is a lot harder to read than Ayn Rand. And then the left
doesn't have all that goofy religious shit.
Rand is an odd example to use in that context.
|4.22.08 @ 12:18AM|#
Attempting to graft a "left/right" political divide invented to capture the alignments of a single moment in the history of the French revolution on to all subsequent political divisions in countries worldwide is what is done by "hacks".
I agree that the one-dimensional political spectrum is pure 100%
Grade-AAA horse shit. But even using such horse shit, the Nazis are
"right-wing".
Michael|4.22.08 @ 12:31AM|#
Leftists tend to be a bit brainier. Marx is a lot harder to
read than Ayn Rand.
Hence his significantly limited appeal among the very people he
purports to uplift.
Paul|4.22.08 @ 12:46AM|#
Marx is a lot harder to read than Ayn Rand. And then the
left doesn't have all that goofy religious shit.
Umm, this is about as close to a self refuting statement as there
can be.
Les|4.22.08 @ 12:48AM|#
Leftists tend to be a bit brainier.
Visit the letters pages of Salon or Huffington Post or Crooks and
Liars, and you'll quickly reconsider this. Not that they're dumber
than the folks at Free Republic or Town Hall, but they are every
bit as dumb.
|4.22.08 @ 12:59AM|#
"Leftists tend to be a bit brainier. Marx is a lot harder to
read than Ayn Rand."
Ptolemy is a lot harder to read than Copernicus.
The Wine Commonsewer|4.22.08 @ 2:12AM|#
Buford Pusser, it is a sad tale of woe when you misspell your own last name.
Mad Max|4.22.08 @ 4:19AM|#
"And then the left doesn't have all that goofy religious
shit."
Woodrow Wilson, William Jennings Bryan, Jim Wallis, the "Liberation
Theology" crowd, William Sloane Coffin, the Presbyterian Church
USA, the mainline Episcopal Church . . . if these guys weren't
goofy than nothing is, and if they're not leftist you're doing a
major redefinition of the term.
Guy Montag|4.22.08 @ 6:06AM|#
Amazing.
The Leftists and their supporters show up here trying to forward
the theory that they are no 'worse' than the free Market/Free
Election side because the latter has bothered to stand up against
Socialist overthrows and takeovers in a handfull of places around
the world.
They sound like spoiled little snots who go around town cutting in
line, being rude and skipping bar tabs. Then they cry that they are
being silenced or their "rights" are being "violated" when a couple
of peopel stand up amd boot them out, or just to the back of the
line. Yes, that would gain a chapter from the MSM, their idiot
allies, about the "violence" of the Right.
Happy Lennin's Birthday/Earth Day to you all.
Daniel Reeves|4.22.08 @ 8:57AM|#
Guy Montag, Ayers is a special case of crazy. Basing your opinion of the left off of this guy is completely dismissive and ad hominem. Do leftists make that same mistake? Yeah, and even more so with the "corporate fat cats are pure evil!" bullshit, I'd say... but it doesn't make it any more permissable for you to do it. Be the bigger man. Call out ad hominem for what it is.
From the Left|4.22.08 @ 9:37AM|#
Leftists are certainly smarter just in terms of IQ. The
political left dominates universities everywhere. Neo-cons are lead
mostly by former left-wing intellectuals. In the U.S there is no
left-wing equivalent of Rush Limbaugh, who appeals to largely to
people who move their lips when they read. Intelligent people don't
tend to watch Fox News, which frequently features Reasonoids, I
notice, and is militantly right wing.
The best and the brightest in all fields tend to be left-of-center
Democrats. The success of the Republicans owes a lot to American
anti-intellectualism. Kerry's obvious intellegence and
sophistication was a big minus, while Bush's obvious lack of brains
was a big plus. The intellectualism so prominent on the left is
perceived by many to be vaguely European and alien.
|4.22.08 @ 10:22AM|#
Socialist would happily murder anyone who stands in their way, but most are looking for someone else to do it.
MK2|4.22.08 @ 10:30AM|#
Human beings, regardless of political or religious affiliation, have had a nasty habit of murdering each other throughout history. Claiming that socialists have a monopoly on murderous violence is laughable.
|4.22.08 @ 10:34AM|#
The best and the brightest in all fields tend to be
left-of-center Democrats.
When you define "bright" as "left-wing", this tends to be
tautological.
|4.22.08 @ 11:38AM|#
Human beings, regardless of political or religious
affiliation, have had a nasty habit of murdering each other
throughout history. Claiming that socialists have a monopoly on
murderous violence is laughable.
True enough they don't have a monopoly but the 20th century sure
saw their market share grow.
|4.22.08 @ 12:07PM|#
In the U.S there is no left-wing equivalent of Rush Limbaugh
Yeah there is. His name is Michale Moore.
Free Republic? Theres the Democratic Underground.
Red State? I give you Kos.
Les|4.22.08 @ 1:18PM|#
The Leftists and their supporters show up here trying to
forward the theory that they are no 'worse' than the free
Market/Free Election side because the latter has bothered to stand
up against Socialist overthrows and takeovers in a handfull of
places around the world.
Amazing. This is how a right-wing ideologist describes the the
funding, arming, and training of terrorists, the methodical
overthrowing of democratically elected governments, along with the
strong financial and military support of totalitarian dictators who
commit torture and mass-murder of dissidents in places ranging from
Angola, throughout Central America, South America, Viet Nam,
Indonesia, to name a few.
It's simply no different a mind-set than that of Ayers and the
left-wing ideologists who support Castro and Che, while making
excuses for the crimes of the Soviet Union.
Les|4.22.08 @ 2:21PM|#
Please replace "ideologist" with "ideologue" in the previous post. And please forgive my stupidity, for I never will.
Guy Montag|4.22.08 @ 2:25PM|#
Les,
I sure did not see the South China Sea full of boat people while we
were in Vietnam. Sure did not see a flood of people going to East
Germany. The West Germans did not build a wall to keep their people
from escaping, etc.
Les|4.22.08 @ 3:04PM|#
Guy,
I agree 100% that most people, the vast majority of human beings,
wish to live in a free society, an un-communist society, if you
will.
But that doesn't change the documented fact that, as the U.S.
fought communism during the Cold War, it repeatedly resorted to
tactics that were every bit as evil as the methods the communists
used. That doesn't mean that our system of government isn't a
billion times better than communist systems. It simply means that
human beings, regardless of ideology, will do evil things. And
unquestioning, blind loyalty, for its own sake, is a clear path to
that evil.
This evil came as naturally to the monsters we supported during the
Cold War as it came to the monsters we were fighting in the Cold
War.
Until anti-communists reject and denounce the methods used by the
U.S. during the Cold War (as if we couldn't have won it without
assisting and enabling mass murderers and terrorists), it's not
reasonable or factual to say leftists are more tolerant of
pointless violence.
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