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FISA Fizzle
The Senate caved yesterday, but the House Democrats forced a showdown on FISA today and came out winners:
The Protect America Act, a temporary but expansive warrantless spying bill passed by Congress last summer, will likely expire Friday at midnight, a casualty of a battle between President Bush and House Democrats over amnesty for phone companies that aided his secret, warrantless spying program and how much of that program should be legalized. The House leadership announced there will be no more votes before the long President's Day legislative break.
The bill's expiration is largely symbolic, but demonstrates that House Democrats are willing to fight Bush on anti-terrorism policies, where fear-mongering rhetoric had previously cowed their opposition.
Though Republicans charge that the expiration will endanger national security, no wiretaps or dragnets will be forced to stop and the government will retain longstanding surveillance powers.
Republicans defeated a three-week extension but walked out of the House today when it became clear the Democrats would let the act expire. The stunt won them the headline, but it won't win them anything else.
|2.14.08 @ 6:20PM|#
Kudos to the Democrats, knowing that they've still got some
balls on the national security issues is good to know.
I was under the impression that the Protect America Bill, aka Spy
on Anyone you Want without Oversight Bill, was about to be
railroaded into permanence.
|2.14.08 @ 6:49PM|#
Who knows?
...the class action lawyers might actually turn out to be good for
something.
|2.14.08 @ 7:01PM|#
Good for the Demo's this time around.
Since 1950, there have been about 900,000 home grown homicides in
the U.S. with somewhere around 150,000 - 200,000 being unsolved. So
we have far more home grown murderers walking around than foreign
terrorists. This national eavesdropping stuff is overrated in its
effectiveness. It's a great way, however for companies who
specialize in eavsdropping technology to get rich at the already
strapped taxpayers' expense.
|2.14.08 @ 7:37PM|#
A big bravo. Let it be known that this is probably not a vote
winner for the Dems, they just did the right thing here (I think it
may have a lot to do with how they feel the White House was trying
to ram this thing through, but hey, they deserve credit
here).
So much for the "both parties are equally bad on this" meme. Not in
this specific instance.
thoreau|2.14.08 @ 7:41PM|#
I admit, I'm a cynic. I still can't help but fear that some time
in the next few months they'll get a conference committee to send
through a wiretap bill with retroactive immunity and provisions for
warrantless domestic surveillance.
I hope I'm wrong. I really hope I'm wrong. I'd love nothing more
than to eat a hearty plateful of crow.
|2.14.08 @ 7:48PM|#
Eh, I see thoreau beat me to the cynical point I was going to
make, so ditto what he said.
I'd love nothing more than to eat a hearty plateful of
crow.
Really, it's not so bad deep-fried.
|2.14.08 @ 7:52PM|#
I keep telling you, Pelosi's O.K. It's Reid that's dragging her
down.
Let's not forget, Minority Whip Nancy Pelosi delivered a huge
Democratic Nay majority to the AUMF back in September 2002. Do you
remember what the political discourse in this country was like one
year after NineElevenChangedEverything?
I don't find it remotely surprising that this is happening - let's
not forget the Democrats passing a bill requiring the CIA and all
other federal agencies to follow the Army Fiend Manual regulations
on the treatment of captives - as the primaries make a Democratic
landslide look more and more likely. Republicans take away our
freedom because it's what they believe in; Democrats go along with
it out of fear of looking weak. The stronger the Democrats'
political position, the better they will be on civil rights.
|2.14.08 @ 7:53PM|#
Oh, btw, the AUMF bill in the House had Dick Gephardt's name on
it, when Nancy Pelosi delivered that landslide Nay.
She's got some stones, that one.
thoreau|2.14.08 @ 7:57PM|#
joe-
I can't forget that in August she rushed through a wiretap bill at
the last minute, rather than putting it off until after
recess.
I hope you're right about her. I really hope you're right. And I
really hope that her caucus in the House holds firm despite the
fuckwits in the Senate.
If at 11:59 am on Jan. 20, 2009 there's still no retroactive
immunity for telecoms that handed over info to the Ministerium für
Staatssicherheit, I will gladly eat a grilled crow.
Lev Strauss|2.14.08 @ 8:01PM|#
Are there going to be any good lawsuits coming up to hurt this legislation? That is what we really need to sway opinion. I really would like to know why the about face from the Dems. I don't trust their bullshit. Most of them don't give a damn about civil liberties.
|2.14.08 @ 8:03PM|#
In August, thoreau, she would have lost the vote and seen the Republican version of the bill pass. She judged that six months would produce a more favorable atmosphere, and she was right.
thoreau|2.14.08 @ 8:06PM|#
I hope you're right about this, joe. I really hope you're
right.
I'm willing to eat whatever good crow recipes you have, if there's
no retroactive immunity on Jan. 20, 2009.
|2.14.08 @ 8:18PM|#
Who knows what will happen, thoreau.
My point has never been to deny that the Democrats in Congress have
often acted like wussies and rolled over on issues like this; I've
just been explaining how that works, and what can be done about
it.
|2.14.08 @ 8:53PM|#
Politics -- when showing some cojones involves doing nothing at
all.
Now if they could rack up a longer string of doing nothing at all,
the Iraq war would be over.
|2.14.08 @ 8:55PM|#
Totally OT, but I hate Michael Leone. Cocksucker registered both www.presidentcunt.com and www.hillarycunt.com a year ago, way before I thought of that awesome idea. Fuck you Michael Leone.
Lev Strauss|2.14.08 @ 9:38PM|#
Whenever the next big primary is, that's when they'll push it
through. The Senate was smart by doing it during the Potomac
Primary, nobody was talking about it. To pass these you have to
play the news cycles.
Many idiots don't know or give a shit either way and vote, many
will get angry if it makes headlines but not notice if not and
vote, and many are partisan enough that they will excuse it and
vote. Us angry people pulled out of the system a while ago, we are
one of the smarter groups, so we are rewarded by seeing the eternal
downward spiral earlier than most, and many will never see it. Many
also never saw it.
deron|2.14.08 @ 10:47PM|#
You want cynical?
I'm still trying to figure out why the White House cares about this
bill when they've argued that they could circumvent FISA based upon
AUMF.
If I got it straight...
FISA authorization wasn't necessary, because AUMF allows any action
in order to protect us from the terrorists...
but retroactive immunity, though it's argued that there was nothing
illegal, and FISA authorization are necessary or the bad guys
win....
Is that right?
|2.14.08 @ 10:56PM|#
The Democrats don't fuck something up even worse, for once, and
joe damned near breaks his arm patting himself on the back.
Holy Buddha's low-dangling dangling testicle, people. The Democrats
make one pathetic and insignificant stand on an issue and you're
ready to throw a ticker-tape parade.
Heinrick|2.14.08 @ 11:12PM|#
"Holy Buddha's low-dangling dangling testicle, people. The
Democrats make one pathetic and insignificant stand on an issue and
you're ready to throw a ticker-tape parade."
What do you expect after the last 7 years?
|2.14.08 @ 11:25PM|#
In an ideal world?
The Dems would have either STFU and allowed the war to be won, or
cut off the funding and ended the whole debacle.
The Dems repealing the PATRIOT Act.
The Dems actually standing up for science and pushing through
funding for stem cell research.
The Dems working to liberalize pot laws, and, I don't know, maybe
at least releasing a harshly worded press release in response to
the DOJ's treatment of Tommy Chong.
Need I continue?
Someone Who Doesn\'t Want to L|2.15.08 @ 12:09AM|#
Thank god "Not Gettin' Laid Day" is over.
Oh shit! It happens again tomorrow?
This calendar sucks!
the innominate one|2.15.08 @ 12:14AM|#
The Dems would have either STFU and allowed the war to be
won...
so the Dems' speech somehow preventing winning the war?
|2.15.08 @ 12:29AM|#
No.
But their constant anti-war mewling minus any sort of action to
curtail what is obviously a war started under false pretenses is
political pandering of the most offensive and despicable sort.
REALLY SUPER REAL AMERICAN|2.15.08 @ 1:16AM|#
THIS IS SHAMEFUL I AM UPSET AND DISGUSTED BEYOND COMPREHENSION THAT OUR GOVERNMENT IS DECIDING TO FORGET ABOUT THE MILLIONS OF PEOPLE IN THE WORLD THAT NEED WATCHING INCLUDING YOU AND ME BECAUSE AT ANY MOMENT ANY ONE OF US COULD CHANGE OUR MINDS AND BECOME ANTI WESTERN CIVILIZATIONALISTS AND THEREFORE THROUGH PURE EXISTENCE THREATEN THE LIVES AND NOT TO MENTION CHILDREN OF EVERY PEACE LOVING AMERICAN ON EARTH THIS DAY WILL BE REMEMBERED IN INFAMY WHEN THE FIRST MEXICAN BLOWS HIMSELF UP IN FRONT OF THE NEXT AMERICAN IDOL JUST YOU WAIT
|2.15.08 @ 5:25AM|#
Word!!!! Looks like some democrats reached down their pants and found something ffs. I hope they keep up with this.
JohnD|2.15.08 @ 7:00AM|#
The majority of the Democrats are yellow bellied tratiors, just like some of the people on this forum
|2.15.08 @ 7:05AM|#
This may be the first thing this Congress has done that I actually agree with. Although, like t, my money is on something very like the Senate bill sneaking through a conference committee before all is said and done.
Taktix®|2.15.08 @ 7:29AM|#
I have enjoyed Talk Radio's outrage that this bill was left to
stew:
AMERICA'S INTELLIGENCE GATHERING IS EFFECTIVELY SHUT DOWN!
Not that I believe much of the AM Radio crowd, but they have been
tolerable lately with the Anti-McCain rhetoric, and almost worth a
listen. Then they repeat this Sept. 12 mantra.
Sorry boys, not gonna float anymore...
|2.15.08 @ 7:58AM|#
AMERICA'S INTELLIGENCE GATHERING IS EFFECTIVELY SHUT
DOWN!
There is a difference between "intelligence gathering" and snooping
into what is none of the government´s business.
I have no problem with the former. The Patriot Act and its various
spawn serve the latter purpose.
Episiarch|2.15.08 @ 8:54AM|#
Aresen, where in Spain are you?
My question is: does Pelosi deserve credit for this, or the
rank-and-file Dem House members? I'm a bit skeptical about praise
for Pelosi.
Mojo Hand|2.15.08 @ 9:07AM|#
Enjoy the delay pitched as a victory.
Betcha the Bush league eventually gets the retroactive immunity for
scofflaw telecoms that they so badly need in order to insure future
illegal assistance from scofflaw telecoms.
Taktix®|2.15.08 @ 9:13AM|#
Betcha the Bush league eventually gets the retroactive
immunity for scofflaw telecoms that they so badly need in order to
insure future illegal assistance from scofflaw telecoms.
I have a feeling this has less to do with illegal assistance and
more to do with protecting potential witnesses who might squawk
when you're not in power anymore...
|2.15.08 @ 9:33AM|#
Aw, mediageek doesn't get to whine about the
EEEEEEVVVVIIIIILLLLLL Democrats for once. Oh, wait, yes he
does.
Taktix, that's it exactly; this is about shutting down the
discovery portion of the civil suits and keeping the
administration's dirty deeds undercover.
wayne, what typo? You remember the Army Fiend Manual, it came out
right between the MM2 and Unearthed Arcana.
Episiarch|2.15.08 @ 9:42AM|#
joe with the D&D reference. Props. But joe, they don't have a class for "city planner" in D&D, even in 3rd edition rules. What did you play? Paladin? Druid?
|2.15.08 @ 9:42AM|#
alisa,
FISA is still in place. The bill that just lapsed was the Protect
America Act, which was an update to FISA. Its lapse means that we
go back to the 1979 version of FISA.
Episiarch|2.15.08 @ 9:46AM|#
I only had full-human or full-elf characters because I despise miscegenation. Purity of blood is paramount.
|2.15.08 @ 9:50AM|#
I might, might, be for immunity if, and only if, it requires the
telcos to admit everything they did. Immunity for full disclosure.
If they can't or are prevented from doing so by Bush and Co, no
deal.
Discovery to determine if Bush is really spying as he says, or
spying on Americans maybe more important than punishing the telcos
for their crimes.
|2.15.08 @ 9:52AM|#
Wow, yesterday was a good day for the House.
They also approved contempt citations against Harriet Miers and
Josh Bolton for ignoring subpoenas on the US Attorneys
investigations.
No more torture of captives. No retroactive immunity.
mediagee, you're pathetic. After 7 years, we actually get some good
news on the civil liberties front, and your biggest concern is that
people not be too happy, because the Democrats did it.
Nice bit about the Democrats "STFU and let the war be won." I think
you just showed your hand.
|2.15.08 @ 9:53AM|#
TrickyVic, I think the telecoms shout be granted immunity.
By the Special Prosecutor.
In exchange for their testimony against high government
officials.
|2.15.08 @ 10:21AM|#
"I think there is probably joy throughout the terrorist
cells throughout the world that the United States Congress did not
do its duty today," said Representative Ted Poe, Republican of
Texas.
On top of everything else, we should be celebrating the fact that
this craven, dishonest argument, which more or less defined our
politics for six years, is finally losing its potency.
That bullying is how we ended up in Iraq. It's how the USA PATRIOT
Act passed. It's how George Bush got reelected. It's how torture
was (almost?) embraced as an appropriate course of action for the
government.
Second-hand Terrorism from the American Right
b. September 12, 2001
d. February 14, 2008
RIP
|2.15.08 @ 10:25AM|#
That's one way joe. I don't know if I trust the government on
this one, even with a special prosecutor. I might be for testifying
in an open session Congress if they are the source of the
immunity.
When do we ever give immunity without something in return?
|2.15.08 @ 10:42AM|#
""""I think there is probably joy throughout the terrorist cells
throughout the world that the United States Congress did not do its
duty today," said Representative Ted Poe, Republican of
Texas."""
It never ceases to amaze me how stupid members of a party become
when they get in power. If this president was a democrat, Mr. Poe
would be claiming the impasse is the president's fault.
I pretty damn sure that it's NOT the duty of Congress to give
immunity to possible criminal acts without having them testify in
front of Congress. If it's considered a duty at all.
Someone Who Doesn\'t Want to L|2.15.08 @ 11:10AM|#
joe and Episiarch,
Very good D&D reference joe. Lawful Good Half-Orc Fighter was
my best one.
...and I bring the thread back to "not gettin' laid day".
ugh.
|2.15.08 @ 12:06PM|#
The Dems actually standing up for science and pushing
through funding for stem cell research.
Yes, because science is terribly threatened by lack of federal
funding for embryonic stem cell research. Anyway, I thought we were
against Congress doing things that aren't covered by Article 1,
Section 8 of the Constitution...or is that trumped by the
opportunity to oppose pro-lifers?
|2.15.08 @ 12:39PM|#
I think it was trumped by the knowledge that "ban on funding for embryonic stem cell research" actually meant "a ban on using any beaker, lab table, or graduate assistant paid for with federal money, if someone else on the same campus is doing embryonic stem cell research."
|2.15.08 @ 4:54PM|#
"""Second-hand Terrorism from the American Right
b. September 12, 2001
d. February 14, 2008
RIP
""""
I didn't hear the fat lady sing. This is long from over. The desire
within the government for total information awarness is strong.
|2.15.08 @ 5:00PM|#
There are few pro-lifers in this country. Many are
anti-abortion. They are not the same. A pro-life believes life
begins and ends by God's hand. A pro-lifer must be against all
actions by man to end anothers life.
I find it ironic that many so-called pro-lifers believes it's ok
for the government to take a life when they see fit to do so, but
no one else.
|2.15.08 @ 6:47PM|#
A pro-life believes life begins and ends by God's hand. A
pro-lifer must be against all actions by man to end anothers
life.
That is silly. Must pro-choicers oppose all forms of coercion, even
coercion of rapists and murderers in the form of prison
sentences?
|2.15.08 @ 6:51PM|#
joe,
The Constitution doesn't authorize Congress to pay for a single
beaker or lab bench for scientific research. I know you don't care
about that concern, but many of the folks who trumpet their support
for federal funding of ESCR are the same ones who think federal
drug laws, for example, are unconstitutional because Congress isn't
authorized to ban drugs in A1S8. I'm just wondering how they
reconcile the two positions.
|2.16.08 @ 7:04PM|#
Sure it does, Chris. INTERSTATE COMMERCE! INTERSTATE COMMERCE!
Booga Booga.
But, if you've forgotten, the argument you made, and that I
responded to, was not about Constitutionalism, but about a threat
to science.
You made the statement, phrased in a sarcastic negative, that
science would not be threatened by this funding ban. And I
responded that, yes, it would, because not only would this ban
forbid funding for that particular field, but the use of any
federal dollars for a facility or organization that does such
research.
And if you haven't figured it out by now, those two positions are
very easily reconciled by the 95% of the public who disagree with
you that collecting taxes and throwing people in jail for smoking
pot represent comparable levels of coercion. You might as well ask
how anyone can oppose the drug war and still want the DPW to fill
potholes.
|2.16.08 @ 9:03PM|#
joe,
Er, ESCR hasn't been federally funded for almost seven years
now...has scientific research shut down in this country, and I'm
the last to find out? My fellowship might be in danger if that's
the case.
I know you don't want to wear out your mouse's scroll wheel or
anything, but a quick glance at my original post would reveal I
pointed out the cafeteria-Constitutionalism of many libertarians in
these parts.
|2.18.08 @ 7:55PM|#
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