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Michigan Primary Thread
The polls close in Michigan at 9 p.m., the exact time that a Democratic debate starts in Nevada. Works rather well for the two parties—there's no Democratic primary in Michigan, so Nevada members of the donkey tribe won't be watching the goings-on back east. It's hell on political reporters and junkies, though.
My predictions have been
Criswellian in their wrongness, but let's try this one last* time.
Only three candidates are on the Democratic ballot so Hillary
Clinton will win about 70 percent of the vote, with the rest going
to "uncommitted," Kucinich, and Gravel. The Republicans...
1. Mitt Romney (32 percent). Turnout is
low and exit polling (so far) shows that voters are four or five
times more worried about the economy than about anything else.
Romney's "I'll say anything! Anything! I'll fit your hubcaps with
crushed diamonds!" campaign will probably pull it off. He'll get a
thousand or so votes from mischief-making
Democrats, just for gravy.
2. John McCain (29 percent). There aren't enough independents turning out for him and more people are worried about his environmental policies killing their (long-doomed) jobs. It's a good night for Hugh Hewitt and a bad night for Matt Welch, which is not the universe I like to live in, but I'll suck it up.
3. Mike Huckabee (18 percent). His numbers don't matter: He's hoping for Romney to humiliate McCain, which would soften him up for South Carolina and make a Huckabee win there possible.
4. (tie) Ron Paul (7 percent). One day I'm going to predict a good Paul finish and be right about it, and I think this is the day. His on-the-ground organization isn't as good as the Iowa or New Hampshire campaigns, but he'll get more than his share of protest votes from non-Republicans.
4. (tie) Rudy Giuliani (7 percent). Two months ago he led in the polls here.
5. Fred Thompson (5 percent). He's already doubled down in South Carolina. It's working about as well for him as Giuliani's "piss on the early states, I'm going to hang out in the Villages" strategy, but Thompson's taken a little more seriously for some reason.
6. Duncan Hunter (1 percent). He got a delegate in Wyoming!
*probably not
UPDATE 9:00: Mitt Romney wins the primary, according to every network. Just in time for the debate. And Paul's set to come forth and make it into the storied CNN pie chart.
UPDATE 9:10: In retrospect, I bet the Obama people wish they had stayed on the ballot. Clinton got only 26 percent of the black vote: "Uncommitted" is getting 70 percent. Voters say that if all the Democrats were on the ballot they would have voted 45 to 37 for Hillary, but how different would that have been with a fired-up Wayne County vote? At the least, this suggests Clinton's going to lose South Carolina and that the anti-Obama strategy is risky as hell.
UPDATE 9:26: The GOP exit polls are almost as interesting. Ron Paul's projected to get a strong fourth place, eight or nine percent, and he scored 24 percent of anti-war voters. Who won anti-war voters? John S(urge) McCain.
UPDATE 9:57: Paul's best county looks to be Hillsdale. Homeschoolers of the world, unite!
Kolohe|1.15.08 @ 8:03PM|#
*useless contribution alert*
pet peeve-
if two items are tied in rank, the next one should be rank+2 vice
+1 (i.e. 6. Thompson, 7. Hunter)
Nutter|1.15.08 @ 8:04PM|#
. His on-the-ground organization isn't as good as the Iowa
or New Hampshire campaigns
Does this mean it's safe for Hannity to go out in public this
time?
|1.15.08 @ 8:16PM|#
One day I'm going to predict a good Paul finish and be right
about it, and I think this is the day.
Actually, Paul has been polling pretty good in Michigan, and
generally ahead of Giuliani. His trend has shown an uptick in the
state over the last few days, as well.
You may indeed be right today.
SIV|1.15.08 @ 8:20PM|#
Fox News reported Paul is %20 among independents in the exit
polls.Same exit polls report %25 GOP voters are independents.
Assuming they are accurate this time, that should get him %5 of the
total right there. Throw in the registered Republicans and he
should do better than %7.
Should be high enough to piss off the cosmotarians AND the GOP
establishment anyways.
Win! Win !
Roger|1.15.08 @ 8:22PM|#
Hannity chased by Cult of the Constitution zealots = hilarity. Mostly because Hannity is a prick and deserved it.
Yahoo Answerer|1.15.08 @ 8:22PM|#
At least McCain didn't win. That much is good. Maybe he will drop out.
Seer|1.15.08 @ 8:27PM|#
No one in Michigan cares about this, we're all much more interested/pissed off with the way WVU is acting like a jilted ex-wife over new UM Head Coach Rich Rodriguez.
SIV|1.15.08 @ 8:28PM|#
Fox reporting --based on exit polling--the Democrat Party
primary is too close to call.
Hillary and "uncommitted" are neck and neck.
Go! Uncommitted Go!
Votee McGee|1.15.08 @ 8:29PM|#
Oh, man - Clinton is ripping Kucinich a new one! It's a whole new campaign, baby!
jag|1.15.08 @ 8:36PM|#
If Clinton fails to get a majority, I will finally believe that there is a just and benevolent God, with a wicked sense of humor to boot.
|1.15.08 @ 8:41PM|#
responsible libertarians Vindicated:
http://bidinotto.journalspace.com/?entryid=656
Eric Dondero|1.15.08 @ 8:45PM|#
DailyKos just found a video of a KKK local Grand Wizard who is
listed as Ron Paul's Midland, Michigan Campaign Coordinator.
It's unreal.
YouTube video now up at www.libertarianrepublican.blogspot.com
|1.15.08 @ 8:47PM|#
What happened to Giuliani? He was the frontrunner nationally a month ago, now he's all but dead.
Eric Dondero|1.15.08 @ 8:50PM|#
Romney has stolen his thunder. They occupy the same Fiscal Con area of the spectrum. I'm a big Rudy guy, but like Mitt too. And will probably end up supporting Mitt, unless Rudy starts getting his act together. Same goes for a lot of Rudy folks.
Erich Dondero|1.15.08 @ 8:51PM|#
Hey guys, did you hear that Ron Paul is a racist? I have the inside scoop. I hear Ron Paul hand-picked this KKK guy in Michigan. Read all about it on my "blog" that I pimp incessantly: http://www.geocities.com/modern_cincinnatus/
Mr. X|1.15.08 @ 8:52PM|#
jp: You're just making my point from a previous thread that this is turning into a proxy war between the pro-war/Objectivist libertarians and the anti-war Ron Paul supporters.
|1.15.08 @ 8:54PM|#
Eric, why don't you go back to the jerry springer show where you
belong.
Man, if people hated the electoral college in 2000, why til they
get a load of 2008
Erich Dondero (Britberg)|1.15.08 @ 8:54PM|#
Oh hey guys, I forgot to talk about Rudy in my last post 3 minutes ago. I sure know how to pick the real libertarians. Would you imagine that the mainstream "libertarian" strain that I pimp constantly on forums where participants are uninterested is actually more niche than the KKK paleolibertarian movement?
|1.15.08 @ 8:55PM|#
jp, bidiniotto supported Bush in the last election. Not only is he not a "responsible libertarian", but he's not "responsible" or "libertarian".
|1.15.08 @ 8:56PM|#
I think the republicans have been naughty enough where they
deserve to elect someone who pranced around in a dress.
I, on the other hand, am not going to wait 8 to 12 years for
another Ron Paul.
Instead of going in a circle why don't we move ahead. Do we really
need to do the goldwater ala reagan circle all over again.
SIV|1.15.08 @ 8:58PM|#
from jp's link to bidinotto:
Rockwell is a pro-Confederacy, "paleolibertarian," blame-America-first, Rothbardian-anarchist kook who founded and heads the Ludwig von Mises Institute in Auburn, Alabama.
I certainly disagree with Rockwell on one point here.I love America. I believe in American Exceptionalsim. You could say I'm a blame-America-laster.
Erich Dondero (Britberg)|1.15.08 @ 8:58PM|#
Hay guys, I forgot something else. Would you believe that for every hour I spend posting to "blogs" and political forums, I gain an extra two pounds in fat? It's fact.
|1.15.08 @ 9:03PM|#
I think that guy in the Daily Kos video might actually be Chris
Farley doing his "motivational speaker bit" the "in a van, down by
the river" guy.
Do you think Chris Farley faked his death? That's the real
question.
Colin|1.15.08 @ 9:04PM|#
NRO is reporting that exits polls suggest Paul might exceed 10%
tonight.
If that happens, how strange. He gets only 8% in probably the most
libertarian state, and then turns around and does better in
probably the most unionized state.
|1.15.08 @ 9:08PM|#
"I think Hillary said it well"
Why does the "change" candidate agree with HRC so much?
Erich Dondero (Brittberg)|1.15.08 @ 9:08PM|#
***Fing Fang Foom sez: I think that guy in the Daily Kos video
might actually be Chris Farley doing his "motivational speaker bit"
the "in a van, down by the river" guy.
Do you think Chris Farley faked his death? That's the real
question.
*****
Don't you dare try to pull some kind of
slight-of-hand trick and ignore the fact that Ron Paul attracts KKK
racists! Not only that, but Ron Paul is in favour of the Christian
Doctrine of War, can you believe that shit??? He needs a liberal
dose of my "angel" brand of libertarianism, although I am fearful
that we may never have the good Doctor back on our side since Lew
Rockwell polluted his mind.
|1.15.08 @ 9:10PM|#
If Paul can pull at least 8 percent in Michigan and finish fourth while Romney wins, than it's a good night for him.
|1.15.08 @ 9:10PM|#
Colin -- The Democratic party disenfranchised Michigan voters in their primary. Those voters tend to be much more anti-war than your average Republican primary voter, and thus would tend to vote disproportionately for Ron Paul.
Erich Dondero Ritenberger|1.15.08 @ 9:18PM|#
I can't believe the only true libertarian, liberal authoritarian lawyer Rudy Giuliani, is getting deep-dicked by a margin of 2:1 in terms of popular votes in Michigan! What is this world coming to??? Lawlz! Must be all the KKK men in the state coming out in force. Everybody knows they hate guineas too.
|1.15.08 @ 9:23PM|#
I just found a KKK Grand Wizard who is listed as a U.S.
Senator.
That is so unfair. He never rose higher than Exalted Cyclops.
And, as Ron Paul would say, it is old news.
Eric Dondero|1.15.08 @ 9:23PM|#
What happened in Wyoming? Ron Paul was supposed to win that
State. All The Paul-bots said that if there was one State Paul
would sweep it was Wyoming.
Not a single delegate for Paul. He got trounced.
Now all the Paul-bots are silent about the Big W-Y.
Quiet as mice.
Mathman|1.15.08 @ 9:24PM|#
jp: You're just making my point from a previous thread that
this is turning into a proxy war between the pro-war/Objectivist
libertarians and the anti-war Ron Paul supporters.
Anti-war libertarian math:
Ron Paul 100% chance of ending war * 0% chance of winning >
Democrat 1% chance of ending war (at worst) * 50% chance of winning
(at worst)
|1.15.08 @ 9:25PM|#
In breaking news, Eric Dondero has just discovered that:
1) DailyKos hates Republicans and will seize on anything and
everything to try to smear and discredit them.
2) That a few Republicans are racists, and that out of thousands of
lightly screened volunteers to any given Republican campaign, some
might turn out to be racists
3) That some Republicans are real d****.
Oh, wait, Dondero has reminded us of point #3 repeatedly -- in
fact, pretty much every time he posts here -- oftentimes
inadvertantly.
|1.15.08 @ 9:28PM|#
What happened in Wyoming? Ron Paul was supposed to win that
State. All The Paul-bots said that if there was one State Paul
would sweep it was Wyoming.
---------------------
I'm a regular visitor at ronpaulforums.com and I don't remember
anyone ever saying that.
Mr. X|1.15.08 @ 9:28PM|#
What happened in Wyoming? Ron Paul was supposed to win that
State. All The Paul-bots said that if there was one State Paul
would sweep it was Wyoming.
Not a single delegate for Paul. He got trounced.
Now all the Paul-bots are silent about the Big W-Y.
Yes, Ron Paul failed to win a delegate in a caucus dominated by
Republican Party officials. People under the mistaken impression
that Wyoming held a primary vote were surprised, but people who
know how the process works from state to state were not.
|1.15.08 @ 9:33PM|#
How BRAINDEAD are the anti-war Republicans who, apparently, are mostly voting for McCain? What a joke. It'd be awfully funny if it weren't for the fact that the future of our country hinges on these elections.
|1.15.08 @ 9:40PM|#
Romney has stolen his thunder. They occupy the same Fiscal
Con area of the spectrum. I'm a big Rudy guy, but like Mitt too.
And will probably end up supporting Mitt, unless Rudy starts
getting his act together. Same goes for a lot of Rudy
folks.
So, you're going to support whoever appears to be winning at the
moment. You're a real political force, D O N D E R O !
Sulla|1.15.08 @ 9:41PM|#
How BRAINDEAD are the anti-war Republicans who, apparently,
are mostly voting for McCain? What a joke. It'd be awfully funny if
it weren't for the fact that the future of our country hinges on
these elections.
How many republicans are anti-war in general? I don't remember
exactly what the polls were like in 2002-2003, but AFAIR, something
like 90% of Republicans supported the war. I don't mean this as a
defense of the war or an endorsement of McCain, but maybe these
voters think that McCain would handle the War better than Bush.
|1.15.08 @ 9:42PM|#
How BRAINDEAD are the anti-war Republicans who, apparently,
are mostly voting for McCain?
Hey, he may have some vile policy positions that will further
damage our country's economy and standing in the world, but you
have to admire his forthrightness and steadfastness of conviction.
Or, so I keep hearing.
|1.15.08 @ 9:46PM|#
"but you have to admire his forthrightness and steadfastness of
conviction."
.... When he's busy trying to limit free speech, weasel amnesty
through Congress and arrogantly telling us we'll be in Iraq for
another 100 years.
Anyone who is anti-war and is voting for McCain is a complete and
utter moron.
|1.15.08 @ 9:48PM|#
Too bad Paul didn't have Byrd's guts and honesty, owning up to his failure and apologizing for it.
|1.15.08 @ 9:48PM|#
Derek,
Well, yes. I find that reasoning as silly as you do, but the
problem is I've heard it from a lot of otherwise reasonable people.
It's just the reductio ad absurdum of this insidious "vote for the
person, not the positions" voting philosophy.
|1.15.08 @ 9:50PM|#
"Sure, the nametag on the Klan robes said 'Byrd, Robert,' but I
just let someone use my name."
Can you imagine anyone trying to get away with that?
Erich Dondero Brittberger|1.15.08 @ 9:50PM|#
***joe sez: It's "Rittberg."
***
Now joe, you know it's against the unwritten gentleman's code
(sausage fest) to commit forum handle thievery, and so any kind
gentle ridiculing soul is going to take extra precaution to make it
know that any parodies of a certain Reagan-era fatass louse are
going to remain parodies.
|1.15.08 @ 9:55PM|#
joe,
Obviously not. It would kind of defeat the purpose of the Klan
robes if they had name tags on them, wouldn't it?
|1.15.08 @ 9:56PM|#
joe, do you think that George Washington personally vetts everything that gets published in the "Washington Post" just because it bears his name?
|1.15.08 @ 9:59PM|#
George Washington is dead. The Washington Post is named after
the city in which it is published. George Washington never told the
Washington Post they could go ahead and write stuff under his name.
George Washington never stated that he wrote anything in the Post
and defended what appeared in it.
Other than that, that is a wicked awesome argument.
Shane Brady|1.15.08 @ 10:02PM|#
I would guess anti-war Republicans aren't so anti-war that they would vote for people like David Duke and Ron Paul just because they are both against the war.
Eric Dunderoo|1.15.08 @ 10:03PM|#
And so who the fuck are you? I've never run into you out on the
petitioning trail for the Libertarian Party or the libertarian
movement. Never heard of you before.
Who the fuck died and made you boss?
What makes you think you're suddenly King of the Libertarians, able
to decide who is and who is not a "Real Libertarian."
Hey buster, I've got 22 years of hardcore libertarian activism
under my belt. I've been called "America's Greatest Libertarian
Political Activist." (See my site for just a tiny taste of some of
the quotes praising me at
www.libertarianrepublican.blogspot.com.)
Don' you fucking dare try to tell me who is and who is not a "real
libertarian."
I'll compare libertarian resumes with you any day of the
week.
Bring it on mother-fucker. Bring it on...
|1.15.08 @ 10:05PM|#
Joe! George Washington is not Dead. He sleeps at the base of Mount Rushmore, waiting to be awakened in our Darkest Hour to save us from the COSMOSTATIST KOCHTOPOID CONSPIRACY TO END FREEDOM FOR ALL TIME! So he should wake up around Super Tuesday.
Roger|1.15.08 @ 10:06PM|#
I love your snarky posts, Shane! I enjoy the fact that they are so consistent.
|1.15.08 @ 10:08PM|#
Shane Brady, what do you think about the race riots in LA? What's the bigger deal? The mass riots complete with numerous acts of violence and destruction, or a newsletter containing some racist comments in response to the riots?
|1.15.08 @ 10:08PM|#
Anyway, the last thing Ron Paul needs at this point is the support of a white supremacist Virginia slaveholder.
|1.15.08 @ 10:09PM|#
And then ask yourself why the latter is something that can be drudged up today to try to ruin a man with an otherwise spotless record.
Shane Brady|1.15.08 @ 10:11PM|#
crimethink,
David Duke has already endorsed Ron Paul and talks about him on his
radio show all the time.
Shane Brady|1.15.08 @ 10:12PM|#
Derek,
I wouldn't want people who participated in those riots, or a right
wing Christian nut with that newsletter past like Ron Paul
either.
|1.15.08 @ 10:13PM|#
Shane, I'm not sure you're in any position to be criticizing the content of those newsletters considering the bigoted statement you just made ("right wing Christian nut").
Shane Brady|1.15.08 @ 10:14PM|#
Derek,
I believe someone who doesn't believe in the theory of evolution
due to their christian religion, is a nut. Sorry.
Shane Brady|1.15.08 @ 10:15PM|#
And unlike Ron Paul's stand on religion, I wouldn't use the federal government to push my atheist point of views on others.
|1.15.08 @ 10:16PM|#
"I believe someone who doesn't believe in the theory of
evolution due to their christian religion, is a nut. Sorry."
-----------------------------
And I believe someone who condemns others for making bigoted
comments and then makes bigoted comments himself is a
hypocrite.
Andrew Jackson|1.15.08 @ 10:17PM|#
Does anyone else find it unnerving that Rombot stole Obama's
campaign message? Seriously, He never talked about any of this
stuff until He saw it working for Obama. I am convinced Rombot
would sell his soul to win this election.
Also, I only supported Ron Paul so I could engage "conservatives"
and progressives on the issues. I never wanted Paul elected, I
wanted to use Him as a platform to debate and trounce conservatives
on their backwards stances, and trounce progressives on the
impracticality of theirs.
Also, on an insider note, my uncle is the Research Director for
Gov. Granholm, and the candidate they fear most is Thompson. Not
that I would support him, I just think it is funny the Republicans
cannot figure this out.
Shane Brady|1.15.08 @ 10:19PM|#
Derek,
Yep, calling other people bigots makes me a bigot in RonPaulLand,
in that magical land where everyone is taught creationism, gays are
shunned, and women die in back alley abortions. What a nice place
RonPaulLand must be for white, heterosexual, males.
|1.15.08 @ 10:21PM|#
Nice prediction, asshole.
Dr. Paul more than Doubled Ghoulini'a vote again, despite the
not-so-subtle advertising on CATO.org's website and Reason's
contribution to the TNR smear.
If you guy's wanna get back on board, I'm sure Dr. Paul would be
more forgiving than me.
Libertarianism's biggest enemy is Statism, not racism. Your
sanctimonious objections to Paul's political strategy is
laughable.
Afraid to get your hands dirty, you prissy little cosmopolitan
beltway fucks?
Peace.
Proud White Nerd|1.15.08 @ 10:21PM|#
I want to be very vocal and make sure everyone understands my opposition to certain politicians, ad nauseum. I want it very visible also that I proudly tout the intellectually-dishonest view of atheism.
|1.15.08 @ 10:21PM|#
OT: My budding anarcho-capitalist daughter got her first letter
to the editor published here
Her first blow struck for freedom! So proud of her.
Hint: It's the letter railing against socialism.
|1.15.08 @ 10:22PM|#
That doesn't mean Ron Paul and David Duke are the same, does
it?
And unlike Ron Paul's stand on religion, I wouldn't use the
federal government to push my atheist point of views on
others.
How again would Ron Paul push religion using the federal govt?
Jacob|1.15.08 @ 10:23PM|#
Just to be sure, we all still hate Ron Paul for being a vile racist, right?
|1.15.08 @ 10:26PM|#
Joe Allen,
Maybe Dave was a little gun-shy after Dr Paul fell waaaaay short of
his predictions in IA and NH. There was also a very easy way Dr
Paul could have prevented the "TNR smear" from being as damaging as
it was, but he chose to obfuscate instead. That's not Reason's
fault.
Shane Brady|1.15.08 @ 10:27PM|#
crimethink,
He supports Don't Ask, Don't tell which discriminates against gays.
He said in one of the debates when asked straight up, he would keep
the policy.
He voted for the "Partial Birth" Abortion act (which violates his
own beliefs on federalism). He introduces the "Sanctity of Life
Act" which declares life to begin at conception, and the "We the
People Act" which restricts the supreme court from ever deciding
certain issues, which coincidentally, revolve around conservative
Christian ideals.
W. C. Fields|1.15.08 @ 10:29PM|#
Yep, calling other people bigots makes me a bigot in
RonPaulLand, in that magical land where everyone is taught
creationism, gays are shunned, and women die in back alley
abortions.
Heh. If only it were also a place where Shane Brady got wedgie
daily, my heaven would be complete.
Go away, kid. You bother me.
|1.15.08 @ 10:30PM|#
UPDATE 9:57: Paul's best county looks to be Hillsdale.
Homeschoolers of the world, unite!
Not too surprising. Hillsdale county presumably includes Hillsdale
college, which is arguably the most libertarian college in the
nation, as anyone who has a subscription to their free monthly
letter, Imprimis (well worth subscribing to, BTW), would
immediately deduce. They don't accept a dime of federal money -- no
student loans, nada.
|1.15.08 @ 10:30PM|#
He also supports federal laws against kidnapping, and rape on
Army bases -- which are both forbidden by his religion! My God,
you're right!
Lots of people oppose exposed gays in the military and partial
birth abortion on non-religious grounds.
Shane Brady|1.15.08 @ 10:30PM|#
If RonPaulBots get this excited over winning 6% of the vote, imagine how jacked they will be when they get their third delgate!
Shane Brady|1.15.08 @ 10:32PM|#
Actually, rape and kidnapping are frequently used in the bible
as rewards, especially those involving young daughters.
I've never seen a anti-gay argument that wasn't religious in
nature.
Mr. Chartreuse|1.15.08 @ 10:34PM|#
How could everyone be taught creationism if there isn't a fedgov presence in education in RonPaulLand? Apparently Ron Paul has the power to charm blue staters into teaching creationism just by the power of his mind
Blah blah blah|1.15.08 @ 10:35PM|#
He voted for the "Partial Birth" Abortion act (which
violates his own beliefs on federalism). He introduces the
"Sanctity of Life Act" which declares life to begin at conception,
and the "We the People Act" which restricts the supreme court from
ever deciding certain issues, which coincidentally, revolve around
conservative Christian ideals.
My goodness, young one. Who would have thought that even atheists
and agnostics are often lukewarm on the topic of abortion,
particularly "partial birth" ones, based on the glaring obviousness
of a mostly developed foetus (you know, one ready to pop out of the
womb healthy, with its own DNA, helpless to the elements outside of
the womb) in direct philosophical conflict with murder laws and
akin to capital punishment except for abortions never even had the
chance to violate laws. Now, we all understand how terribly
irresistable fucking without a rubber is, but the issue really has
more weight in contemporary politics than it really diserves.
|1.15.08 @ 10:35PM|#
"If you guy's wanna get back on board, I'm sure Dr. Paul would
be more forgiving than me
blahblahblah...sanctimonious...blahblahblah...laughable...blahblahblah...prissy...blahblahblah..."
Wow, any threads remotely Paul-related sure bring out the dickwads
these days, and very few of them seem to have a clue how to use
apostrophes.
Or, to translate that for Joe Allen's sake, any thread's remotely
Paul-related the'se days sure bring out the dickwad's, and very few
of them 'seem to have a clue how to u'se apostrophe's.
White Nerd Libertarian|1.15.08 @ 10:39PM|#
I'll confound those bastards with my irrefutable logic and zealotry! *clack clack clack clack clack*
|1.15.08 @ 10:39PM|#
Just to be sure, we all still hate Ron Paul for being a vile
racist, right?
No, that was SOO last Friday. Now we all hate any Reason staffer
who keeps flogging that dead horse and not moving on to stuff that
is news (as opposed to, say, "olds").
We're the cool libertarians, remember? We have to all show our
individuality by marching in lockstep, kinda like the "Across the
Street Gang" in my old high school who ALL wore ragged jeans and
dirty white T-shirts, day after day after day, while smoking
Marlboros, to show their independence and free-thinking.
Godwin|1.15.08 @ 10:39PM|#
I've never seen a anti-gay argument that wasn't religious in
nature.
You know, the Nazis had pieces of flair they made [gays] wear.
CommiGodwin|1.15.08 @ 10:42PM|#
The Soviets sent gays to the gulag because the ArchPatriarch of Constantople made them.
Mr. Chartreuse|1.15.08 @ 10:42PM|#
We're the cool libertarians, remember? We have to all show
our individuality by marching in lockstep, kinda like the "Across
the Street Gang" in my old high school who ALL wore ragged jeans
and dirty white T-shirts, day after day after day, while smoking
Marlboros, to show their independence and free-thinking.
That reminds of me of a South Park episode where Stan (?) asks the
Goth kids if they want to be part of his dance team. All of them
say no, except for one kid who says "I'm such a non-conformist,
that I'm not conforming with you guys."
|1.15.08 @ 10:45PM|#
I've never seen a anti-gay argument that wasn't religious in
nature.
Don't ask dont tell isn't an anti-gay measure, any more than not
allowing women to use men's restrooms is a misogynistic policy.
Mr. Chartreuse|1.15.08 @ 10:50PM|#
Dammit, Constantinople
No, I think it is....Istanbul not Constantinople
Austrian Suck-Fuck|1.15.08 @ 10:50PM|#
When I was a young conscript in the military for compulsory service, I couldn't turn my head without a large gay swinging dick slapping me in the face. I used to suck dozens of cocks a week, and you know what? It was the most profound experience of my life. To think that a government would seek to temper the desire of young, misunderstood men, to put on drag shows and hire hot oiled-up studs to shake their banana hammock at an hourly rate plus tips in the barracks simply sickens me.
|1.15.08 @ 10:53PM|#
Anatomy of a smear campaign: A look at how the beltway
libertarians tried to ruin RP...
http://formerbeltwaywonk.wordpress.com/2008/01/15/the-orange-line-anatomy-of-a-smear-campaign/
And more on why these so-called libertarians seek to undermine Dr.
Paul as they depend on the income tax that Ron Paul seeks to
abolish:
http://formerbeltwaywonk.wordpress.com/2008/01/15/january-8-2008/
|1.15.08 @ 10:53PM|#
How can one not think of conspiracy theories having just
observed an improbably simultaneous media attack on Ron Paul the
day of the New Hampshire primary? A remarkably successful attack
that made him plunge from 14% in the polls to an 8% actual vote?
After weeks where we heard little about Paul from the mass media
and beltway "libertarian" bloggers? TNR from the left, Fox News and
talk radio from the right, and piling on from beltway
"libertarians" who made a point of loudly repeating the TNR smears
and dumping Ron Paul on the day of the primary. Your eyes and ears
did not deceive you, all this happened. It is not the result of a
criminal conspiracy, but if one uses "conspiracy" as a metaphor for
social networks and economic incentives, there is a strong sense in
which conspiracy theories accurately, if metaphorically, explain
what happened.
The reality behind the conspiratorial metaphor is the social
networking between denizens of the Beltway, who sport a wide
variety of political labels but are, relative to the rest of the
country, a monoculture. I lived there. I went to these parties.
These denizens range from the journalists who report the mass media
news to various think tank and university scholars at the Cato
Institute, George Mason University, and so on. They study Ayn Rand,
then marry Andrea Mitchell and testify against tax cuts. Vast
amounts of federal money, that stuff that is taken out of your
paycheck with such automatic ease, flow into the Beltway area.
Directly and indirectly, almost every person who lives in or near
the Beltway depends on the very income tax that Ron Paul declared
he would abolish - with no replacement!
Many of these paycheck vampires call themselves "libertarians" and
inspire us with their libertarian rhetoric to support them with our
attention, our blog hits, and our tuition money as well as the tax
money that already funds them or their friends. But at the first
sign of political incorrectness, all these below-the-Beltway
"libertarians" have dumped Ron Paul like yesterday's garbage. Now
they can rest easy that they will still be invited to the parties
thrown by their lobbyist and government employee and contractor
friends, who for a second or two got worried by all those Google
searches that Ron Paul might have some influence, resulting in some
of them losing their jobs (end the income tax with no replacement?!
The guy is obvioiusly a kook, and we don't invite the supporters of
kooks to our parties!). Now everybody around the Beltway can go
back to partying at the taxpayer's expense. All the money will keep
flowing in, hooray!
The lesson millions of young libertarians have now learned from our
mass media and our beltway "libertarians"? Libertarian
electioneering is futile. Voting is futile. Democracy is futile.
It's hip to be "libertarian." But anybody who actually wants
liberty is a kook, as can be proven by their association with
kooks. Beltway wonks posing as "libertarians" are happy to write
things to inflame your hopes for liberty that they don't really
mean. Then they make sure that we elect the politicians their
friends want - the ones that will enslave your future to pay for
full social security for Baby Boomers. The ones that will send you
off to foreign lands to kill and die. Not only the journalists who
hang out with the government bureaucrats and lobbyists, and not
only the politicians who talk sweet while they drain your paycheck
and kill your fellow human beings, but even the beltway
"libertarians" are happy to let a whole new generation of
libertarians go down the tubes in order to keep their Beltway
friends happy.
http://formerbeltwaywonk.wordpress.com/2008/01/15/january-8-2008/
|1.15.08 @ 10:55PM|#
Hi prolefeed --
Nice letter; you should be proud. I wrote my first letter to the
editor at about the same age. Just think, in about 30 years if your
daughter follows the same arc, she'll be up late posting on the
Reason blog and obsessing about, well, everything.
Nutter|1.15.08 @ 10:59PM|#
The lesson millions of young libertarians have now learned
from our mass media and our beltway "libertarians"? Libertarian
electioneering is futile. Voting is futile. Democracy is
futile
This is what you get from your candidate having a bad week? You
don't have much of a future in politics anyway.
Roger.|1.15.08 @ 10:59PM|#
I really wish that people would refrain from spamming their or
other "blog" entries to the H&R forum, in favour of a simple
hypertext URL link. :(((((((((((
P.S. Erich Dunder is a douche.
|1.15.08 @ 11:03PM|#
Libertarian electioneering is futile. Voting is futile.
Democracy is futile
And don't forget, You will be assimilated.
Shane Brady is a fucking loser|1.15.08 @ 11:07PM|#
Shane Brady -
Boy, are you a stupid whiny little bitch.
If all gays were like you, it would actually be right to hate them
and put them into fucking ovens.
Drink!|1.15.08 @ 11:11PM|#
When your attitude is: We want "freedom" so bad that we'll pander to racists because they will give us money and support, you shouldn't be surprised that you have trouble attracting support from most everyone else. The whole reaction of the "paleolibs" has convinced me of two things: 1) Many, if not most, paleolibs act like fundamentalists, searching for a messianic candidate and looking to impose their libertarian morality on the rest of the world and 2) Libertarianism isn't really about seeking a world where people are free in general, just free from governmental interference.
Matt|1.15.08 @ 11:11PM|#
Hey James,
if its any consolation Im a gov employee beltway type, and Im
voting for R. Paul. Donated a bit of my paycheck to him too.
Yea Im looking for some other employment.
heh|1.15.08 @ 11:22PM|#
You know, the Nazis had pieces of flair they made [gays]
wear.
Ironic that the early hitler militias such as the brownshirts were
lead and filled with homosexuals.
Shane Brady|1.15.08 @ 11:42PM|#
crimesink,
Way to compare apples and oranges and not make any sense. With
Don't Ask, Don't Tell, gays are kicked out for being gay, where as
heterosexuals are not. Sounds pretty anti-gay to me.
|1.15.08 @ 11:45PM|#
Looks like Weigel pretty well nailed it this time. Only mistakes were over-estimating Giuliani and under-estimating Romney by a few points. Other than that, he called it pretty close...
|1.15.08 @ 11:48PM|#
sixstring -- thanks. Hoping my daughter is far more successful
than her old man, and is so busy that taking time to check out
H&R is not even remotely on the agenda.
Shane -- Don't Ask, Don't Tell isn't a particularly libertarian
program, but name one major presidential candidate of either party
that is advocating allowing gays to serve openly in the military
with no repercussions, and then you'll have a point.
|1.15.08 @ 11:50PM|#
@prolefeed
Helluva a letter by your daughter! It's nice to see "socialist"
making a comeback as an epithet in public discourse. Especially
among children.
Good Job!
|1.15.08 @ 11:54PM|#
Libertarianism isn't really about seeking a world where
people are free in general, just free from governmental
interference.
If you think making people free in general (that is, beyond ending
govt interference) is a political issue, then you aren't a
libertarian. And if you don't, why do you care what "paleo-libs"
think about it? I don't care if other libertarians like prog rock,
because it's not a political issue.
|1.15.08 @ 11:55PM|#
With Don't Ask, Don't Tell, gays are kicked out for being
gay, where as heterosexuals are not.
I think heterosexuals would be kicked out if they were being gay,
also.
Drink!|1.16.08 @ 12:02AM|#
If you think making people free in general (that is, beyond
ending govt interference) is a political issue, then you aren't a
libertarian. And if you don't, why do you care what "paleo-libs"
think about it? I don't care if other libertarians like prog rock,
because it's not a political issue.
Yeah, I'm not a libertarian, more of a anti-authority person who
hates lectures about morality from anybody, even NAP libertarians.
To the extent I accept authority, it's only if it is intended to
give people as much freedom to make their own choices. However, I
feel closer to libertarians than republicans and democrats and I
thought I'd share my perspective. I won't claim to represent the
mainstream or pretend that pandering to me will lead to long term
political success. I think libertarians would have more success if
the pandered more towards the center and less towards the fringes
(me included). Still I though I might as well speak my piece.
Shane Brady|1.16.08 @ 12:02AM|#
prolefeed:
My point is that Ron Paul is anti-gay because of his own religious
beliefs.
What the other candidates think has no bearing on Ron Paul being
anti-gay or not.
crimethink:
I did butcher that, but what I meant was, if a gay soldier writes a
love letter back to his partner, that's grounds for dismissal. If a
hetero does the same thing, ie a male soldier writing to a wife or
girlfriend, that's fine.
It's totally discriminatory at the federal level.
Brandybuck|1.16.08 @ 12:03AM|#
Responsible libertarians Vindicated:
http://bidinotto.journalspace.com/?entryid=656
Wow, is that guy a nutjob! If that's the definition of cosmotarian,
I'm glad I'm not one! He's ranting about how Paul voted to keep
"Under God" in the pledge of allegiance. If that's at the top of
his priorities, I'm glad I'm a paleo.
Let's slash taxes, abolish regulations, legalize drugs, and stop
the war in Iraq, before we start worrying about the wording of an
unofficial pledge.
Cosmotarian: One who will never consider himself free until the
letters 'g', 'o' and 'd' are chiseled out from every obelix in the
kingdom...
|1.16.08 @ 12:27AM|#
Prolefeed,
My son is eleven and just now starting to flex his awareness that
the world doesn't revolve around him. Last night's discussion was
about the child soldiers in Sudan. (I can just hear his teacher in
his argument -- we have to DO something!) It is way cool to have
the debate, and I am trying my best to offer both sides of the
argument so that my son can find his own way to the truth. Anyway,
it is fascinating to watch them come into their own, no?
|1.16.08 @ 1:56AM|#
Shane -- What difference does it make WHY Ron Paul is offering policies that are equally anti-gay as all the other major alternative candidates? Is a principled but wrongheaded stance like this somehow worse than an unprincipled and wrongheaded stance that all the Democratic candidates appear to be knowingly pushing because it's politically expedient even though it violates all the values they purport to hold? Why does anyone care what private beliefs a candidate holds if there is no bleedthrough into policy?
|1.16.08 @ 2:16AM|#
So now it's a matter of "human right" to get a government job committing genocide on brown people? Is this that "positive liberty"?
|1.16.08 @ 2:49AM|#
As a Hillsdale College alumnus I'm proud my fellow freedom
lovers.
"That government is best which governs least." Thomas Paine
Robert Paul|1.16.08 @ 4:32AM|#
Shane Brady and crimethink,
Ron Paul supports DADT but without discharging soldiers just for
being gay. You should watch him in the debates where he's defended
this. The problem in his view is disruptive sexual behavior, and
he's said it doesn't matter whether that behavior is homosexual or
heterosexual. They should be treated the same.
|1.16.08 @ 7:39AM|#
It looks like the Lavender Mafia, Israel Firsters, and the illegal alien lobby conspired to smear Ron Paul before the New Hampshire primary. Some at Reason combined with David Boaz and CATO to drop the Newsletter crap right before the first in the nation primary where Ron Paul was set to make his mark. Factor in the NeoCon News network, FAUX excluding him from their debate and it looks like the beltway hacks are really scared of Ron Paul. Even the so called libertarian beltway hacks.
|1.16.08 @ 12:52PM|#
Ben:
"That government is best which governs least." Thomas
Paine
Actually that sage truism is attributed to Thomas Jefferson, but
there's some debate on that.
|1.16.08 @ 1:24PM|#
Eric Dondero actually said that Romney and shameful war
monger Rudy are fiscal Conservatives!!? And he says that Rudy is
his fave!
What an idiot! It's no wonder that Eric is no longer a Ron Paul
staffer.
Ron Paul is an exceptionally strong fiscal conservative.
Note that of 435 House members, only 2 have voted to spend less of
our money than Ron Paul.
http://www.ntu.org/main/page.php?PageID=117
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