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Internet Ministers Defrocked
Two people whose marriage broke up after 7 months are
trying to
ruin the fun of getting married by an Internet minister for the
rest of us:
[The couple] wondered if the ceremony performed by a friend ordained via the Internet was even valid under state law. Now a York County [Pennsylvania] judge has ruled that it was not.
Half of the (sorta) divorced couple, Dorie Heyer, "said she agreed such a ceremony did not have legal standing. "It makes a mockery out of the whole marriage system."
For many people, this is the whole point. After all, there's no reason on God's green Earth (or Gaia's green Earth, if you prefer), that having a "regularly established church or congregation" makes you especially qualified to OK a marriage contract.
I'm taking the news rather personally, since I was hoping to be married by my sister--a proud clergywoman of the Universal Life Church--next month. There's bound to be a legal challenge to the ruling, but not soon enough to save me from the county clerk's office, I fear.
The Pennsylvania House is considering legislation that would exclude churches or congregations that offer ordinations by mail or through electronic means.
G. Martin Freeman, Universal Life Church Monastery president, said he hopes to challenge Cook's ruling.
Freeman said the decision to accept some ministers but not others was arbitrary and would violate the constitutional separation of church and state.
The New York Times recently ran a story on this conundrum as well called "Great Wedding! But Was It Legal?"
NOTA BENE: Of course, some people have bigger problems than I do getting their marriages legally recognized.Â
Robert|9.12.07 @ 3:04PM|#
As a ULC minister in NY, I once married a couple in a hallway,
but I don't think any of us took it seriously. At that time, New
York City was not credentialing ULC ministers for marriages,
although it was doing so for Unification Church ministers, among
many others.
Hey, I just realized I haven't ordained anyone in a while.
|9.12.07 @ 3:07PM|#
Does this mean all those people I married in my canoe (in my capacity as captain) aren't married?
NeonCat|9.12.07 @ 3:07PM|#
As an ordained minister of the ULC, this fills me with righteous anger. Who the hell is the PA legislature to tell me I am not ordained?
|9.12.07 @ 3:12PM|#
Two people whose marriage broke up after 7 months are trying
to ruin the fun of getting married by an Internet minister for the
rest of us:
"[The couple] wondered if the ceremony performed by a friend
ordained via the Internet was even valid under state law. Now a
York County [Pennsylvania] judge has ruled that it was not."
Aren't people supposed to wonder about that kind of stuff
before they pick a minister and get married?
I'm taking the news rather personally, since I was hoping to be
married by my sister--a proud clergywoman of the Universal Life
Church--next month.
Hey, best wishes!
|9.12.07 @ 3:13PM|#
The solution is pretty obvious -- somebody in the ULC just needs
to start killing lots of other people in the name of the ULC. Then
there will be no doubt whatsoever that the ULC is a bona fide
"religion" worthy of presiding over the acceptance of legal
contracts in a U.S. state.
I mean, come on ... a church with no history of murder in the name
of its leader/creator/God? How could any state take an organization
like that seriously when it comes to joining two people into a
legal contract?
|9.12.07 @ 3:15PM|#
Full disclosure: My brother married my wife and I in Montana with the authority vested in him by the ULC. And for anybody to say that this makes a mockery of our marriage, as opposed to us paying some "church" pastor or priest that neither of us know or give a shit about, kind of pissed me off.
|9.12.07 @ 3:19PM|#
The solution is pretty obvious -- somebody in the ULC just
needs to start killing lots of other people in the name of the ULC.
Then there will be no doubt whatsoever that the ULC is a bona fide
"religion" worthy of presiding over the acceptance of legal
contracts in a U.S. state.
And people think I have a hard-on for religion. Funny in a sad
truth sort of way, thoough.
|9.12.07 @ 3:19PM|#
In Florida, at least, you can get married by a noatary
public.
http://www.flnotary.com/WeddingInfo.asp
|9.12.07 @ 3:20PM|#
Barely missed the same situation as Brad. Mrs. Damar and I were going to get married by my brother (ULC minister) until her family objected 2 days before the wedding. So we instead got married by my brother (deputy representative of the County of Santa Clara.) Since she makes more money than I do, I'd be pretty upset if it turns out it ain't legal.
|9.12.07 @ 3:26PM|#
Katherine --
Are you keeping the last name, taking your partner's, or adding
another hyphen?
Back when it became acceptable practice in the late 70s and early
80s, I wondered what the hyphenated family's kids would choose.
|9.12.07 @ 3:30PM|#
Damn. I've been ULC-ordained since I was 17 and was hoping to
sanctify a marriage sometime.
Ah, well. At least I'm still a Discordian pope.
Guy Montag|9.12.07 @ 3:31PM|#
It makes a mockery out of the whole marriage
system."
Government involvement in the marriage scam system is
the real mochery, especially in States that tell you that you are
married against your will (or were married after you die) so that
they can distribute your property (or keep it themselves) in
whatever haphazard manner they jotted down over the years.
Does this mean all those people I married in my canoe (in my
capacity as captain) aren't married?
What about all the strippers I married as an Army Aviation
Captain!
|9.12.07 @ 3:40PM|#
What about all the strippers I married as an Army Aviation
Captain!
You married them, you married them to other people, or you
married them to each other? 1 is kind of cool, 2 is fine but
boring, and 3 is hot.
|9.12.07 @ 3:45PM|#
Hmm...so states don't recognize joke weddings?
This is a slow libertarian outrage day. Where's Radley with a SWAT
team story when you need him?
atrevete|9.12.07 @ 3:51PM|#
In our state, all you need is a marriage license. After that they don't care who performs the ceremony or even IF there's a ceremony.
Outraged Libertarian|9.12.07 @ 3:53PM|#
OMG!OMG!OMG!
these bullets were made by UNION labor!!!!! OMG!OMG!OMG!
this pipe... made by children in a subsidized school breakfast
gang????
Nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!!!!!!
Guy Montag|9.12.07 @ 3:54PM|#
You married them, you married them to other people, or you
married them to each other? 1 is kind of cool, 2 is fine but
boring, and 3 is hot.
I do not have any compiled numbers for services performed after
0200.
John G|9.12.07 @ 3:57PM|#
In Virginia, anyone can get permission to perform a marriage ceremony, you just have to tell them in advance.
New World Dan|9.12.07 @ 4:00PM|#
In Minnesota, you need to register with the state before you can perform marriages, which I think is a good middle ground. Of course, the best answer is just for the state to not recognize any marriages. And I have a friend, ordained in the ULC, who has in fact performed a couple of marriages.
ed|9.12.07 @ 4:02PM|#
All churches are shams, so it stands to reason that all church-sanctioned marriages are shams. But as long as we all agree to go along with the gag...
|9.12.07 @ 4:10PM|#
Have a ULC clergy run the wedding doesn't make a marriage less real. If anything, getting divorced 7 months after the wedding would.
Johno|9.12.07 @ 4:30PM|#
Well, Dorie E. Heyer of York, Pennsylvania, has really screwed
the pooch and good for a number of people, including, as it turns
out, me.
That's right... my wife and I were married five years ago, this
week. In Pennsylvania. By a reverend of the Universal Life Church.
In what I now find is a "mockery" and "invalid." Well crap... my
infant son's a bastard in the eyes of the State of
Pennsylvania!!
This had got-damn well better be overturned on appeal, because my
invalid mockery of a marriage is pretty freaking precious and
important to me, and the ramifications of its annulment would be...
let's just say "unpleasant."
Hey Dorie E. Heyer of York, Pennsylvania? Go Cheney yourself.
|9.12.07 @ 4:36PM|#
Aren't these people common law man and wife, despite the invalidity of their official vows? I thought they merely had to exchange words evidencing an intent to presently be married then hold themselves out as husband and wife within the borders of Pennsylvania. NO?
fyodor|9.12.07 @ 4:38PM|#
I witnessed Subgenius Pope Black (aka Pope of All Europe) on a
few occasions marry several men together in a group marriage (once
in a bathroom!). Presumably they didn't take it very seriously (the
damn Pinks!!!).
I would think that marriage, like any contract, should require some
signing of paperwork, but that done, it hardly matters who masters
the accompanying ceremony.
bubba|9.12.07 @ 4:57PM|#
How was their marriage not a "common law" marriage, as they certainly thought they were married at the time, and presumably told people they were married, and hell, even had a marriage license?
|9.12.07 @ 4:57PM|#
Loli and Sal Paradise, as a Discordian Pope, I hereby
excommunicate both of you, and myself, effective immediately. As a
ULC minister, I offer to join you in an invalid mockery of marriage
here in NH, where it is still legal for the time being, but you pay
your own airfare.
Seriously, I believe that the State has no business regulating what
is 1) obviously a 1st Amendment Right of Association, and 2) A
religious matter if it involves a minister, rabbi, etc.
And then they CHARGE you money for a LICENSE!
Ex-Pope Danger I, Ex-Pope of Carroll County NH, and surrounding
airspace.
|9.12.07 @ 5:00PM|#
It makes a mockery out of the whole marriage system."
Government involvement in the marriage scam system is the real
mochery,
No, Starbucks is a real mochary ...
T|9.12.07 @ 5:01PM|#
Well, hell. I've been asked in my official capacity as a ULC
Minister to marry a couple sometime next year. I guess I'd better
tell the happy couple it may not be recognized in PA.
Of course, since they're both male, it won't be recognized here in
Texas, either. But if it doesn't bother them, it sure as hell won't
bother me.
The ULC thing is just a dodge until I receive notification of my
new position of Reptilian Space Pope.
richard.finch@hushmail.com|9.12.07 @ 5:03PM|#
There's no more common-law marriage in Penn., as of Sept. 2003. The New York Times article linked to in the original post also says it's been abolished in 39 states.
Thomas Blair|9.12.07 @ 5:13PM|#
It makes a mockery out of the whole marriage
system.
Perhaps it's just me, but I thought that divorce after 7 months
made the mockery.
|9.12.07 @ 5:17PM|#
When I became a ULC minister, I registered with the Ohio
Secretary of State. No problem. Now I can perform marriages in the
Buckeye State with the government's sanction.
The S. of S. at the time was Ken Blackwell, which is somehow
ironic...
|9.12.07 @ 5:25PM|#
"There's no more common-law marriage in Penn., as of Sept.
2003."
Ahh, got it. I was out of law school by then.
cgee|9.12.07 @ 5:55PM|#
Katherine, seriously, we *need* to know the answer to the
married name question!
Go for another hyphen!
|9.12.07 @ 5:56PM|#
if the universal church is not a leagel church then no one is ordained there for everyone is an illegal minister on line or not the universal church has to look at its legaliaty regarding such matters
|9.12.07 @ 6:03PM|#
Katherine, seriously, we *need* to know the answer to the
married name question!
Yes, Enquiring minds want to know.
Paul|9.12.07 @ 6:20PM|#
As an ULC minister, I'm shocked that the five minutes I spent
filing to be a ULC minister is being called a sham.
I need to turn my paperwork in, though. It's hard to perform
weddings when the state isn't in the know.
|9.12.07 @ 6:41PM|#
I'm taking the news rather personally, since I was hoping to
be married by my sister--a proud clergywoman of the Universal Life
Church--next month.
All the fish in the sea and Mangu picks a relative...Taboos aside,
it is still idiotic.
Wait does Mangu's husband also marry her sister, or is this a
circles overlapping sort of thing?
|9.12.07 @ 7:03PM|#
I'd go for the Happy Medium of "ok, you're licensed to marry
people if you register with the state", and feh on what religion in
the name of which said "minister" is marrying them.
Either that, or insist that everyone show up at the district
courthouse to sign a few papers and you can have whatever religious
ceremony you want by whatever religion you want.
We really have to get religious entities out of acting like
branches of the state....
|9.12.07 @ 8:06PM|#
We really have to get religious entities out of acting like
branches of the state....
Indeed. And while we're at it, we really have to get the state of
out acting like branches of the family. The state has absolutely no
business deciding who can or cannot get married, nor who can or
cannot perform the ceremony. The state's involvement in the
marriage contract should not extend beyond merely recording it as
they would any other important contract.
|9.12.07 @ 10:07PM|#
John Reed, on being appointed by Trotsky as Soviet consul to New York in 1918 (Lenin later cancelled the appointment) joked to a friend "When I am consul I suppose I shall have to marry people. I hate the marriage ceremony. I shall simply say to them, 'Proletarians of the world, unite!'"
Jim Lippard|9.13.07 @ 12:28AM|#
My wife and I were married by a ULC minister in Arizona. (We're
both atheists and have both seen marriage ceremonies performed for
atheists where the officiant agrees to leave God out of it, only to
insert explicitly religious language into the ceremony anyway; we
wanted to be sure that wouldn't happen and had a friend follow a
ceremony we wrote for ourselves.) Arizona's legal definition of
marriage requires that "The marriage is solemnized by a person
authorized by law to solemnize marriages or by a person purporting
to act in such capacity and believed in good faith by at least one
of the parties to be so authorized." (ARS 25-111(B)(2)) That means
that only if both of us didn't have a good faith belief that the
minister was authorized could our marriage be invalidated. (In the
Philly.com article about the Pennsylvania case, it's not
specifically stated, but seems to me to suggest that both parties
agreed that they didn't think it was bogus.)
Arizona's definition of who is authorized by law to perform
marriages (ARS 25-124) lists a variety of judges and "duly licensed
or ordained clergymen," with the qualification that the term
"includes ministers, elders or other persons who by the customs,
rules and regulations of a religious society or sect are authorized
or permitted to solemnize marriages or to officiate at marriage
ceremonies." I don't see any reason why that language would not
include ULC ministers.
|9.13.07 @ 3:34AM|#
Piece of advice:
Go get ordained as a ULC clergyman. Or not, w/e.
Just lie to the couple and tell them you are.
If they think you are a legitimate clergyman, the marriage is
valid.
if they know you aren't, it isn't.
Least thats what they told me in law school.
|9.13.07 @ 3:36AM|#
Of course, you may face some sort of criminal liablity for pretending to be a clergyman, especially if you took money, but the marriage would be valid.
Mad Max|9.13.07 @ 9:49AM|#
According to the article,
"State law says those qualified to officiate at marriages are
judges, mayors, and the ministers, priests or rabbis of a
'regularly established church or congregation.'"
If you don't want a judge or mayor to marry you, the law still
seems open-minded. There's nothing in there saying that a church or
congregation has to have particular beliefs, just be "regularly
established." So if there's a Satanic church which has been duly
established in the community, you can get married there. If there's
an Ethical Culture outfit in town, you can get married there. They
just don't allow fly-by-nighters of *any* religious persuasion.
|9.14.07 @ 1:15PM|#
i was married over a year ago by my best friend, who was ULC ordained. i researched it pretty thoroughly beforehand. it looked then like the marriages performed by ULC ministers could be judged invalid unless at least one of the people being married was also a member of ULC "church." so i went ahead and got ordained, and everything seems to be fine. PA does not keep account of all ministers in the state.
|9.14.07 @ 6:19PM|#
I just performed--in PA--my first wedding as an "ordained" ULC
minister on 9/8, four days before the ruling.
1--It seems ridiculous that PRIOR marriages are considered invalid.
Change the rules "from now on" but don't wreck it for people that
were married in the past.
2--People who are not religious deserve to have a formal wedding
too. Seems pretty fishy to not allow a person not ordained in an
organized tradition to marry folks.
Universal Life Church|9.17.07 @ 7:32PM|#
Press Release Monday, September 17, 2007
Contact: G. Martin Freeman, President (206) 285-1086 -
webmaster@themonastery.org
On, September 7, 2007 a York County judge invalidated a marriage
officiated by a Universal Life Church minister on the grounds that
his ordination was illegitimate. The Universal Life Church
Monastery is the largest online church in the world and Rev. Adam
Johnston is one of millions of ministers ordained through our
church.
Our records show that Rev. Adam Johnston was a Universal Life
Church ordained minister prior to the marriage of Dorie E. Heyer
and Jacob T. Hollerbush on the 24th of August, 2006. The brevity of
this marriage, as with many other marriages in America, reflects
not on the legitimacy of the Universal Life Church minister but on
the couple themselves. It is inappropriate for this couple to blame
the failure of their marriage on the ULC administered
ceremony.
We have not seen transcripts Judge Cook's ruling regarding the
authorization of Rev. Adam Johnston to perform marriages under
Pennsylvania statutes. It is our position that any infringement
upon the rights of our ministers is an infringement on the
protections of the First Amendment which guarantees:
"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of
religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof…"
As such, it is apparent that Judge Cook's decision is an
impermissible attack upon the constitution. Moreover, the Universal
Life Church Monastery is prepared to take the following
action:
1. Enlist the involvement of the ACLU along with our own
Constitutional counsel to bring action in the United States
District Court for the Middle District of Pennsylvania. [42 USC
1985]
2. Name the county officials in their individual and official
capacity in a Federal lawsuit for making arbitrary and capricious
decisions under the premise of color of law.
3. Seek a declaratory judgment asking that the Federal Judiciary
enjoin York County officials and the state of PA from making
further decisions as to the legitimacy of one church over
another.
We consider this issue very important to the defense of religious
freedoms for all people . Our church has over 20 million ministers
who demand the rights and protections granted by the Constitution.
We are willing to conduct interviews and provide additional press
material in order to expose this issue and defend the cause of
religious freedom around the world.
G. Martin Freeman, President
Universal Life Church Monastery
|9.17.07 @ 10:58PM|#
For those ULC ministers like myself, who found error, bigotry,
and predjudice in many Christian denominations, the Universal Life
Church provided a God-send to a faith journey that culminated in
renouncing organized religion for it's atrocities. I was ordained
in 2003, one year after renouncing the Catholic Faith and ending
both my affiliation with Catholicism and the Catholic Seminary.
Determined not to let anyone but the Lord "lord it over me," I was
intrigued by immediate ordination, inter/multi-faith
non-denominationalism, and the freedom to teach and preach as the
Spirit of God reveals to me without being dictated to by
letcherous, sexually repressed old men in $5000 dresses. I would
now give my life for the ULC; it saved me from a life of regret and
despair; I would be proud to serve it in any capacity; and ready to
defend all it's ministers whether they are Satanists or Christians
like myself. Since I am a Disabled American Veteran, on a
disability pension from the Veteran's Administration, if I were to
receive a salary for ministerial duties, I would lose a dollar from
my pension for every dollar I made. Since I am a resident of the
local housing commission in a building for the elderly and
disabled, I am proud to offer Sunday Services on a volunteer basis
for my fellow neighbors, and happy whether there are 2 one week or
12 the next... Realizing, of course, that some persons use the ULC
for a whim, I wish this weren't the case; but I am FAR more trained
for ministry than Jesus or any of His disciples were. A graduate of
the U. S. Army Chaplain School, and having attended seminaries both
in the United States and Rome, Italy, I am sickened with the
thought of having to "surrender" my will over to the heirarchy of
some denomination that tells me what I MUST believe and preach. God
bless the Universal LIfe Church, it's founders the Hensley's, it's
administrators, and all my fellow ministers whether Christian or
Agnostic.
Education of Reverend Michael Ray Meakin, D.D., ULC
Since I have renounced the Catholic faith, I have substituted the
English language word that is synonymous with Catholic:
(Universal)
Saint John Vianney Seminary, University of Saint Thomas; St. Paul,
MN; 1999
Theology: Introduction to (Universal) Tradition 4 Credit Hours
A-
The Christian Theological Tradition 4 Credit Hours A
The Old Testament 4 Credit Hours A
The New Testament 4 Credit Hours A-
The Epistles of Paul 4 Credit Hours A-
Christian Literature: Medieval to Modern 4 Credit Hours A-
Philosophy: The Philosophy of Human Person 4 Credit Hours A
Ethics 4 Credit Hours B
Faith and Doubt 4 Credit Hours B-
The (Universal) Vision 4 Credit Hours B+
Other: Critical Reading and Writing I 4 Credit Hours A
Critical Reading and Writing II 4 Credit Hours A-
General Psychology 4 Credit Hours B-
Pastoral Ministry 2 Credit Hours B
Pastoral Ministry Experience in
Hennepin County HOSPICE
Understanding Music in Christian Culture 4 Credit Hours A
Elementary Latin 4 Credit Hours C
Writing in Academic Discourse 4 Credit Hours C+
Writing Poetry & Fiction 4 Credit Hours B+
American History From a Global 4 Credit Hours B+
Perspective
Major: (Universal) Studies Named to Dean's List 4 of 6
Semesters
St. Meinrad Seminary, St, Meinrad, IN; 2002
Philosophy: Intensive Spiritual Growth 2 Credit Hours A
(Credit through University of St. Thomas; St. Paul, MN)
Pontifical University of St. Thomas Aquinas In The City; Rome,
Italy; 2002
(Credit through University of St. Thomas; St. Paul, MN)
Theology: Church and Culture in Europe 4 Credit Hours A
(Universal) Classical Literature 4 Credit Hours A-
Christian Democracy: 4 Credit Hours B- Topics in the Politics &
Economics of Europe
Philosophy: The History of Medieval Philosophy 4 Credit Hours
B
Other: Italian I (2 Credit Hours) RETAKE
Italian I 2 Credit Hours B
Italian II 2 Credit Hours B
Pastoral Ministry Experience No Credit
(Sisters of Mercy Home; Rome, Italy)
Pontifical Seminary, University of St. Gregory The Great; Rome,
Italy; 2002
Church Latin No Credit OBSERVER
United States Army Chaplain Center and School; Ft. Monmouth, NJ;
1990
Distinguished Honor Graduate (Grade Point Average 4.0) 358 Hours
Total Training
Religious Support 4 Credit Hours A
Pastoral Ministry 4 Credit Hours A
Psychological Support 4 Credit Hours A
Interpersonal Communications 2 Credit Hours A
Fund Accounting 2 Credit Hour A
Communication Skills 2 Credit Hours A
Business Communications 2 Credit Hours A
Jewish Tradition 4 Credit Hours A
Christian Tradition 4 Credit Hours A
Muslim Tradition 4 Credit Hours A
Basic Computer Skills 2 Credit Hours A
Word Processing 2 Credit Hours A
Information Resourcing 2 Credit Hours A
Office Skills 2 Credit Hours A
Physical Conditioning/ Education 1 Credit Hour A
Total: 137 Credit Hours
Cumulative Grade Point Average: 3.391
Ordination: March 10, 2003; Universal Life Church; Modesto,
CA
Doctor of Divinity Conferred: (Retroactive to Ordination) September
12, 2007; Universal Life Church Monastery; Seattle, WA.
|9.21.07 @ 10:33AM|#
if the universal church is not legal then what church is ?
if a minister is not legal then what religiouse minded person is
?
like when in britan catholics was no legal but church of england
was then the other way round now there both legal so my point again
is if this is wrong what is right ??
|9.22.07 @ 5:37PM|#
I am a ULC ordained minister. I find the comment attributed to one part of divorced couple, Dorie Heyer, rather hypocritcal and paradoxical. She said she agreed such a ceremony did not have legal standing. "It makes a mockery out of the whole marriage system." Wasn't she the one who got her friend, a ULC minister, to marry her in the first place. Just goes to show her immaturity in life.
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