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They Hate Us for our Smørrebrød
Danish police arrested eight people—six of whom are Danish citizens, and all, according to Swedish television, have "foreign backgrounds"—early this morning, claiming that they stopped an imminent, though as of yet unspecified, attack on the country. A spokesman for the Danish security service PET claims that all eight have connections to "leading members of the terrorist organizational-Qaeda ." This morning's raid was just the latest in a string of arrests in Denmark, a country targeted, according to terrorism experts, for the publication of the now-infamous Mohammad cartoons and its military involvement in both Iraq and Afghanistan. Reuters has the full story:
The Muslims arrested ranged from 19 to 29 years old. They came from Afghan, Pakistani, Somali and Turkish backgrounds and six were Danish citizens, Scharf said.
"Our investigation has shown that some of the suspects had acquired materials to make explosives," he said.
He did not say whether any explosives had been found but said important evidence had been discovered in the raids in central Copenhagen and its suburbs.
And in Denmark, the suspects can be remanded for long stretches of time, without being charged:
Later on Tuesday, a Copenhagen court remanded two of the suspects—the ones believed to be the main players—in custody for 27 days. Suspects can be remanded in custody under preliminary charges for many months in Denmark, with the right to periodic hearings in court.
During the so-called "cartoon crisis," Tim Cavanaugh asked readers to "just say no to Mohammad's hit men."
|9.4.07 @ 4:55PM|#
And in Denmark, the suspects can be remanded for long
stretches of time, without being charged: Suspects can be remanded
in custody under preliminary charges for many months in Denmark,
with the right to periodic hearings in court.
Giving government that kind of power is a real threat to western
civilization.
Viking Moose|9.4.07 @ 5:06PM|#
Rick -
uh huh. good call!
tak for postingen, Michael - her er
linken til Berlingske i dk.
This will serve as a check on the new anti terror package they
have...
(a
href="http://www.berlingske.dk/indland/artikel:aid=936824">her)
hils!
|9.4.07 @ 5:18PM|#
Viking,
Thanks for the link. The Berlingske account his biggest crime: a
dodgy beard: "Samtidig lod han skægget gro, iførte sig traditionel
muslimsk beklædning og blev knyttet tæt til det fundamentalistiske
såkaldte salafimiljø i København."
|9.4.07 @ 5:28PM|#
"Our investigation has shown that some of the suspects had
acquired materials to make explosives," he said.
Let me guess -- they had acquired fertilizer and an alarm
clock?
iih|9.4.07 @ 5:41PM|#
Michael,
For some reason you seem to portray Muslims in a negative fashion
one more time (something others on H&R have warned me about in
the past regarding your reporting), unless the word "Smørrebrød"
carries a meaning that pokes fun at the whole situation, not just
criticism of Muslims (I do not speak any of the Scandinavian
languages).
For example, you mention the "cartoon crisis" -- can you verify the
news that prominent Muslim groups have come out against the riots
and violence committed by Muslims in response to the Danish and
recent Swedish cartoons? I cam across these news but could not find
the sources again. That would be something worth reporting and that
does not put Muslims in a negative light as this piece seem to
do.
And here is a libertarian take on this: Is it acceptable to have
"[s]uspects... remanded in custody under preliminary charges for
many months in Denmark, with the right to periodic hearings in
court."? For all I know, a Muslim hater police officer in Denmark
(or here in the US?) can put me in prison for not "disclosed"
reasons and I will stay there because of my ethnicty/religious
beliefs?
Zord|9.4.07 @ 5:51PM|#
Am I'm really tiring of Moynihan's Little Green Football shtick? He doesn't really seem to fit in at H&R.
|9.4.07 @ 5:56PM|#
iih,
I haven't a clue how I am "portraying Muslims in a negative
fashion." Nor have I done so in the past. If I had indeed been
unfair to Muslims, I suspect you would have quoted me.
In fact, I noted the libertarian take in the post, which was
clearly skeptical to the indefinite detention bit. In a comment
above, I joked that the police arrested him because he had a dodgy
beard. (i.e., I'm skeptical at this point)
Smørrebrød is a Danish sandwich, very popular, and not at all
Islamophobic.
And for the record, I certainly hope that I have, in the past,
portrayed radical Muslims in a negative light. They certainly
deserve it. And that, after all, is a very libertarian
position.
|9.4.07 @ 6:01PM|#
And in Denmark, the suspects can be remanded for long
stretches of time, without being charged...
Wow, thank the FSM I live in the US, where that would never - what?
Oh. Never mind.
|9.4.07 @ 6:01PM|#
I speak enough Danish to know "Smorrebrod" (not gonna take the
time to figure out how to make my computer type 0 and / together)
literally translates to "butter and bread" and refers to
traditional open-face Danish sandwiches. I am hard placed to figure
how that can be offensive to Muslims, the author is obviously
mocking Bush's "they hate us for our freedoms."
And while I too worry about the consequences of detention without
charges, at least in Denmark they get lawyers, court hearings, the
total time is limited; this is civil rights heaven compared to
being an "unlawful enemy combatant" in the US.
|9.4.07 @ 6:04PM|#
I think the US should take all of the cool letters from Russian, German and Scandanavia and add them to English.
wayaway|9.4.07 @ 6:05PM|#
"leading members of the terrorist
organizational-Qaeda"
Is "Organizational-Qaeda" Qaeda performed under the auspices of an
organisation or just Qaeda done in an organised way?
|9.4.07 @ 6:08PM|#
@iih
For some reason you seem to portray Muslims in a negative
fashion one more time (something others on H&R have warned me
about in the past regarding your reporting)
I'm not really picking up on that at all - if anything, this story
appears to be putting Danish law enforcement in a negative
light.
@Zord
Am I'm really tiring of Moynihan's Little Green Football
shtick? He doesn't really seem to fit in at H&R.
What?! There's gotta be two Moynihans posting here. Certainly, in
this Moynihan, Reason has found yet another hankie waving bravely
in the service of liberty. If anything, he fits in all too
well....
|9.4.07 @ 6:18PM|#
When the only time you ever discuss Muslims is to denounce
"radical Islamists," and then you don't ever seem to get around to
noting that other Muslims denounce them, too, it's easy for people
to get the wrong impression.
It's easy to come across as the guy who spends all of his time
complaining about niggers, who then has a nice bit of patter
explaining the difference between niggers and black people.
What would you conclude about a blog that only discussed
libertarians when some newspaper ran a story about a libertarian
who did something violent or insane?
JD|9.4.07 @ 6:25PM|#
joe - Well, what do you want him to say? The standard boilerplate "yes, there are a great many nonviolent, quite reasonable Muslims"? You wanted him to devote a whole column to the people who aren't in the news, maybe?
|9.4.07 @ 6:25PM|#
You've topped yourself this time, Joe. Thanks for making the "like a guy who hates black people" comparison. It is utterly absurd to say that everything must be balanced with "here's a Muslim who denounces x" (although, if you were paying attention, rather than just spewing nonsense, you would have realized that the last post I wrote about Islam included a reference to a moderate Swedish group that defended the cartoons...but I suppose that buggers with your narrative). Incidentally, I have taken shots at the pope and james dobson on H&R and--wait for it!--I have never had a kind thing to say about peaceful, moderate christians.
|9.4.07 @ 6:26PM|#
When the only time you ever discuss Muslims is to denounce
"radical Islamists," and then you don't ever seem to get around to
noting that other Muslims denounce them, too, it's easy for people
to get the wrong impression.
Well, like almost everyone else, most Muslims aren't particularly
remarkable, and really aren't newsworthy. What would you like him
to say about them?
What would you conclude about a blog that only discussed
libertarians when some newspaper ran a story about a libertarian
who did something violent or insane?
I'd conclude it was pretty much a mainstream newspaper.
Libertarians aren't very remarkable and newsworthy otherwise,
either.
|9.4.07 @ 6:27PM|#
FYI, Joe:
"A few English stories on the Vilks controversy here and here. None
of them mention that a moderate Muslim group in Sweden offered to
exhibit the drawings-that is until Vilks published this
anti-Semitic drawing of a hook-nosed sow, gobbling up
Palestinians."
Now, back to trawling for stories of LGF
|9.4.07 @ 6:49PM|#
OK, the example I chose was a little harsh, so I'll just put
down the venom to that.
For the record, I don't think Michael writings are actually
comparable to the mutterings of people who sit around complaining
about niggers. He's certainly not the worst offender when it comes
to Islamophobia. My point was something else.
My point, before it gets lost in a sea of indignant huffs, was
"it's easy to..." I don't need a disclaimer attached to every news
stories that features Muslim bad guys. What would that accomplish?
What I'd like is coverage of international news that doesn't quite
so reliably feature nasty Muslims menacing the enlightened
West.
Yeah, you take shots about Christian religious figures, too. As I
recall, there's a bit of a stink made about how Christians get
treated on Hit & Run, too.
Trollaphile|9.4.07 @ 6:50PM|#
"I think the US should take all of the cool letters from
Russian, German and Scandanavia and add them to English."
There is one in Gremsn too.
|9.4.07 @ 6:55PM|#
I think the US should take all of the cool letters from Russian, German and Scandanavia and add them to English.
Cliff: What the hell have you got against the Thai alphabet? Are
you sure you're not Siamaphobic?
|9.4.07 @ 6:56PM|#
Pig Mannix,
,i>Well, like almost everyone else, most Muslims aren't
particularly remarkable, and really aren't newsworthy. What would
you like him to say about them?
How about some coverage of the Afghan government? That's not
newsworthy?
I'd conclude it was pretty much a mainstream
newspaper.
Mainstream newspapers suck, and largely for that reason. If it
leads, it bleeds, and play up the terrorism angle.
|9.4.07 @ 7:24PM|#
Pig Mannix-
They could have chosen a better poster, but I don't see whats wrong
with deporting immigrants that commit violent crimes.
z|9.4.07 @ 7:39PM|#
In the u.s., we hate our immigrants because of the crazy language that they speak(spanish) the color of their skin and the number of cars they have parked out front. That doesn't seem so bad compared to countries with immigrants who want to blow them up.
|9.4.07 @ 7:39PM|#
So, joe, which of your posts should we take "for the record"?
The one posted at 6:18, wherein you compare Michael to "someone who
sits around complaining about niggers"? Or your 6:49 post, wherein,
"for the record", you say you aren't making this comparison?
Or, should we ignore all your posts, except the ones you officially
announce are "for the record"?
|9.4.07 @ 7:47PM|#
but I don't see whats wrong with deporting immigrants that commit violent crimes.
Cesar, the whole family gets deported. Do you deserve to be
punished because of a relatives behaviour?
iih|9.4.07 @ 7:55PM|#
Michael,
Sorry, didn't mean to ignore you or anything. I just had to drive
home and beat the city traffic (which I failed to do :-( ).
And...
And for the record, I certainly hope that I have, in the past,
portrayed radical Muslims in a negative light. They certainly
deserve it. And that, after all, is a very libertarian
position.
That is exactly my position, too, as I have pointed out on numerous
occasions in previous H&R forums. Fundamentalists are
distorting the "mainstream beliefs" of "ordinary" Muslims. They
gain most of the media attention. And they should get that
attention if the West is to understand fundamentalism and how to
deal with it. Even more so for Islamic violent radicalism.
However, this should not make the Western media blind to the bright
spots amongst Muslims. That is, why not report something about
Muslims and Islam in a more positive light (which I believe exists
and deserves attention), for nothing else but for the West's quest
to quelling the dangers of fundamentalism and radicalism
(especially if these imply endangering the basic tenets of liberty
and freedom which we, libertarians, hold so dearly) -- in all its
forms, and all its stripes, across religions and ideologies.
So I hope to hear some more positive stuff when discussing Muslims
in the future.
For e.g.:
http://www.reason.com/blog/show/122067.html
http://www.reason.com/news/show/33315.html
Thanks Michael for the response and I look forward to reading more
of your articles.
|9.4.07 @ 7:55PM|#
Cesar, the whole family gets deported. Do you deserve to be
punished because of a relatives behaviour?
I don't agree with the whole family being deported, no. Only those
that commit the crimes, and only those over 18. So yes, I disagree
with the proposal but agree that violent immigrants should be
deported.
iih|9.4.07 @ 7:58PM|#
Skallagrim,
You win the prize. A stupid headline, but supposed to be
mocking.
And even I got this right, even not knowing what "Smørrebrød"
meant! :-)
dhex|9.4.07 @ 8:09PM|#
joe...why are you such a fucking cunt lately?
i mean that with all love and respect, but it's become quite
noticeable. i generally tell people to stuff it with the "joe is a
troll" routine but you're not making this easy anymore.
and yes, at least we know if h+r is making fun of creationists,
team red would come out to complain about the creeping secular
latte-ism of reason.
thank god the universe is balanced and shit. woo.
do they really have a point, or are they just being cunts too?
Mike Laursen|9.4.07 @ 8:10PM|#
Hmm, Hit & Run should just put up a page of numbered standard libertarian disclaimers which can be linked to as needed in the posts.
iih|9.4.07 @ 8:14PM|#
JD
You wanted him to devote a whole column to the people who
aren't in the news, maybe?
What all "moderate/mainstream" Muslims are asking for is not to be
mentioned in association with negativity. They have done things in
the past, currently are trying, and many aspire to do things that
are not at all negative. These types of things get very little
mention, unfortunately.
May be reason ought to have an article on discourse by 11th century
Muslim scholars on the notions of government, for example. Here is
Ibn Khaldun (who wrote on what today has become theories of
relative value and dynamic taxation as once noted in one of the
above Reason articles. Cato's Arabic version lists his work along
with Hayek, Hume, Voltaire, Smith, and Mill):
"[A government is] an institution which prevents injustice other
than such as it commits itself"
iih|9.4.07 @ 8:17PM|#
yda:
LGF
Little Green Footballs is, what I find, a very notorious
website/blog.
|9.4.07 @ 8:17PM|#
"As I recall, there's a bit of a stink made about how Christians
get treated on Hit & Run, too."
I'm afraid that joe is correct. Consider this remark by
Moynihan:
"Incidentally, I have taken shots at the pope and james dobson on
H&R and--wait for it!--I have never had a kind thing to say
about peaceful, moderate christians."
Thus, whatever a "moderate christian" may be, he is at least
someone who rejects the views of the pope and James Dobson. I'll
let Dobson defend his own views, but as for the Pope, which of his
positions gets him banished from the sacred precincts of
moderation? His opposition to the destruction of innocent human
life, even including preborn life? His insistence that sexual
relations should be confined to marriage, defined as the lifelong
union of one (1) man and one (1) woman?
|9.4.07 @ 8:25PM|#
Mad Max-
I'd say his insistence that non-Christians burn in fire for
eternity is a pretty disgusting belief. Also, the belief that
non-baptized babies suffer in purgatory is pretty
disgusting too.
iih|9.4.07 @ 8:25PM|#
Well, like almost everyone else, most Muslims aren't
particularly remarkable, and really aren't newsworthy.
In the sciences they are (check out Zewail of Caltech for example).
In architecture they have been (check out the name of the engineer
-- not just the company, but the person himself -- who actually
designed the Sear Tower -- do you know who?)
Or how about Muhammad Yunis, who received the Nobel Peace Prize in
2006 for, of all things: "efforts to create economic and social
development from below"
The list can go on, if you and the "mainstream" media had been
paying attention.
I admit it is not much. But given the multitude of difficulties
Muslims in the last 2-3 centuries have been experiencing -- you've
got to at least give them some credit.
iih|9.4.07 @ 8:26PM|#
I'd say his insistence that non-Christians burn in fire for
eternity is a pretty disgusting belief. Also, the belief that
non-baptized babies suffer in purgatory is pretty disgusting
too.
And the idea that all babies are born "sinners" is totally
abhorring to all Muslims, moderate or otherwise.
|9.4.07 @ 8:34PM|#
but as for the Pope, which of his positions gets him banished from the sacred precincts of moderation? His opposition to the destruction of innocent human life, even including preborn life? His insistence that sexual relations should be confined to marriage, defined as the lifelong union of one (1) man and one (1) woman?
Let me try, celibate, MALE priests (they give marriage counseling
though). No remarriage after divorce (actually the church doesn't
even recognize divorce). Birth control is a sin (6,000.000,000+ is
not enough people).
If that's moderate/mainstream then it's easy to see why i'm an
athiest.
|9.4.07 @ 8:37PM|#
J sub D-
You forgot that they think people who are born homosexual (a
genetic pre-disposition beyond ones control) are sinners and
condemned to hell. Oh, and the fact they believe that there is a
celestial Kim Jung Il that rules over us making free will a
farce.
iih|9.4.07 @ 8:45PM|#
Mike Laursen
Hmm, Hit & Run should just put up a page of numbered
standard libertarian disclaimers which can be linked to as needed
in the posts.
And that is not what Muslims like myself are asking for either.
Just a bit of balance and justice would be good. As I responded
above, articles on Khaldun and his contemporaries, how his thought
has been shaped out of Islamic theories of governance, taxation
theory, his thoughts on "social evolution", would just be good
enough and intellectually exciting. I think.
|9.4.07 @ 8:47PM|#
Cesar, good catch on the homosexual thing. Of course an omniscient being is incompatible with free will and quantum physics, but what the hey?
|9.4.07 @ 8:51PM|#
As I responded above, articles on Khaldun and his contemporaries, how his thought has been shaped out of Islamic theories of governance, taxation theory, his thoughts on "social evolution", would just be good enough and intellectually exciting.
iih: Thanks for the reading assignment. I'll get you for that.
iih|9.4.07 @ 8:56PM|#
Cesar, J sub D:
Muslims believe, by the way (you may find this interesting), that
there is a delicate balance between free-will and destiny.
Everything done in life, Muslims believe, is done out of free-will.
Being born to rich parents or poor is one example of non-free-will
destinies (i.e., determined by God). Things get dicey, and
philosophically interesting, once one talks about "genetically"
determined traits such as boy/girl, health/sick, eye color, etc.
This s where most modern day Muslim thinkers and
philosophers stop, unlike their 9th-13th/14th century predecessors
would have done (who would have debated these questions endlessly
and respectful of each other).
iih|9.4.07 @ 8:57PM|#
J sub D:
iih: Thanks for the reading assignment. I'll get you for
that.
My pleasure :-) But its time to hide from you (i.e., I really got
to get some work done now -- but I will be frequently check back to
see if Michael gets my comment addressed to him)!
|9.4.07 @ 9:01PM|#
It's easy to come across as the guy who spends all of his
time complaining about niggers, who then has a nice bit of patter
explaining the difference between niggers and black
people.
You mean like Chris Rock?
|9.4.07 @ 9:03PM|#
"You forgot that they think people who are born homosexual (a
genetic pre-disposition beyond ones control) are sinners and
condemned to hell"
first of all, most christians think ALL people are sinners.
second of all, the idea that homosexuality is 100% genetic is a bit
off considering that the left has spent decades trying to claim
that most human behavior is partially to mostly SOCIALLY
constructed. we all realize (contrary to the tabula rasa thing)
that gender, for example, is both biologically AND socially
constructed. only a first wave feminist would claim its entirely
socially constructed (yet many still do) despite reams of evidence
to the contrary regarding androgens, etc. influence on
behavior.
the reality is that the jury is still out, and it is most likely
(OCCAM and all), that homosexuality is primarily genetically
influenced but it is hardly a 100% thang for all homosexuals. human
behavior doesn't work like that. there are genetic influences on
behavior and there are environmental influences on behavior. it
most likely varies from hetero to hetero and homosexual to
homesexual much like other genetically influenced behaviors (such
that there are varying levels of genetic influence). but that's too
nuanced for ideologues of both the left and the right, so we get
this anti-science absolutism when the evidence is not there to
support it.
heck, mother jones magazine (www.motherjones.com) which is about as
far left as you can get has a good article right now about the
problematic assumption that homosexuality is solely a genetic
thang.
this is of course tangential to whether gay marriage etc. should be
a right, despite many on both sides of the issue who think the
genetic factor is THE deciding issue.
|9.4.07 @ 9:10PM|#
I haven't been checking these postings very often for a few weeks now, but I'm glad to see that things are progressing further along on the same course. Joe now has a problem with the existence of Muslim terrorists being mentioned. I guess when that little piece of reality gets in the way of your politics, it's got to go. I'll tune back in a few months from now, when he's actually calling for human sacrifices to be handed over to Al Qaeda to appease Allah.
Mike Laursen|9.4.07 @ 9:14PM|#
iih, I appreciate your wanting to see more press for moderate
Muslims. Muslims are at serious risk of becoming the
scapegoat minority in America (and other places).
My joke wasn't directed at Muslims. It was referring to how often
libertarians have to make certain disclaimers because our
straightforward statement is perceived to have a subtext that isn't
there. Subtexts that are usually there when it's not a libertarian
saying it.
iih|9.4.07 @ 9:37PM|#
Mike Laursen:
My joke wasn't directed at Muslims. It was referring to how
often libertarians have to make certain disclaimers because our
straightforward statement is perceived to have a subtext that isn't
there. Subtexts that are usually there when it's not a libertarian
saying it.
As I have done before, I may have been over-sensitive. My
apologies.
BTW is that a Swedish name? My dad (he's Egyptian) has been to
Denmark and Sweden on business several times in the past, and he
loved the two nations.
At school (in Egypt) I had a female Swedish/Egyptian friend who was
the most gorgeous girl I had ever seen. A beautiful mix of
Scandinavian beauty along with exotic Middle Eastern
features.
I received a prestigious scholarship from Denmark's DTU (The Orsted
Scholarship) but had to decline it for a better position in the
US.
|9.4.07 @ 9:39PM|#
the reality is that the jury is still out, and it is most
likely (OCCAM and all), that homosexuality is primarily genetically
influenced but it is hardly a 100% thang for all homosexuals. human
behavior doesn't work like that. there are genetic influences on
behavior and there are environmental influences on behavior. it
most likely varies from hetero to hetero and homosexual to
homesexual much like other genetically influenced behaviors (such
that there are varying levels of genetic influence). but that's too
nuanced for ideologues of both the left and the right, so we get
this anti-science absolutism when the evidence is not there to
support it.
I see your point, and would agree that most human behavior is part
genetic and part environmental/behavioral. But to say that
something that is even PARTLY genetic, that hurts no one else, will
make you deserve to burn in hell for eternity is disgusting.
SIV|9.4.07 @ 10:11PM|#
Also, the belief that non-baptized babies suffer in
purgatory is pretty disgusting too.
What happened to Limbo? Now the babies have to go to
Purgatory?
......homosexual (a genetic pre-disposition beyond ones
control)
Cite ?....Proof?.....Evidence?
Jesus, are they putting this bs in your college textbooks next to
the " smallpox genocide of Native-Americans" chapter?
|9.4.07 @ 10:12PM|#
Islamophobia
Those medieval barbarians deserve every bit of scorn that can be
heaped on them, and then some.
|9.4.07 @ 10:30PM|#
Cite ?....Proof?.....Evidence?
Jesus, are they putting this bs in your college textbooks next to
the " smallpox genocide of Native-Americans" chapter?
SIV, screw you. There are plenty of academic journals that state
this. Google them and get back to me. I won't discuss it on here,
you won't hijack this threat.
Mike Laursen|9.4.07 @ 11:35PM|#
BTW is that a Swedish name?
I'm Danish on my father's side. But all the Danish culture I have
are a few words of ungrammatical Danish and a coffee mug with a
viking on it.
|9.5.07 @ 2:58AM|#
"What happened to Limbo? Now the babies have to go to
Purgatory?"
Haven't you heard - The Catholic Church recently issued an
encyclical (or maybe it was just a printout, i don't know the
difference) abolishing limbo.
I'm not a Catholic but it really annoyed me. I mean, now where are
we gonna send all the criminals to ? The Phantom Zone ?
|9.5.07 @ 5:34AM|#
"[His Holiness the Pope's] insistence that non-Christians burn
in fire for eternity is a pretty disgusting belief"
From the Dogmatic Constitution on the Church, Lumen Gentium, issued
by the Second Vatican Council in 1964
(http://tinyurl.com/3wxff):
"Basing itself upon Sacred Scripture and Tradition, [the Council]
teaches that the Church, now sojourning on earth as an exile, is
necessary for salvation. Christ, present to us in His Body, which
is the Church, is the one Mediator and the unique way of salvation.
In explicit terms He Himself affirmed the necessity of faith and
baptism(124) and thereby affirmed also the necessity of the Church,
for through baptism as through a door men enter the Church.
Whosoever, therefore, knowing that the Catholic Church was made
necessary by Christ, would refuse to enter or to remain in it,
could not be saved. . . .
"Those also can attain to salvation who through no fault of their
own do not know the Gospel of Christ or His Church, yet sincerely
seek God and moved by grace strive by their deeds to do His will as
it is known to them through the dictates of conscience."
"non-baptized babies suffer in purgatory is pretty disgusting
too."
Never heard of that one. There's a doctrine of *limbo*, which has
recently been discussed by an International Theological Commission
(http://tinyurl.com/3x7puy). Limbo has never been held to be a
place of suffering.
"celibate, MALE priests (they give marriage counseling
though)."
Can a celibate person give advice on marriage? Well, I suppose
H&R posters would agree that a person can give opinions on
government policy even if he isn't an elected official or
government employee.
"No remarriage after divorce (actually the church doesn't even
recognize divorce)."
Yeah, divorce on demand was a bad idea whose time had come.
"Birth control is a sin (6,000.000,000+ is not enough
people)."
Then isn't it wonderful that birthrates in certain European
populations are falling below replacement levels! And Japan has
already gotten far below those levels. What wonderful news.
"they think people who are born homosexual (a genetic
pre-disposition beyond ones control) are sinners and condemned to
hell."
Close, but no cigar. From the Catechism of the Catholic Church
(http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/_INDEX.HTM):
"2358 The number of men and women who have deep-seated homosexual
tendencies is not negligible. This inclination, which is
objectively disordered, constitutes for most of them a trial. They
must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every
sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided.
These persons are called to fulfill God's will in their lives and,
if they are Christians, to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord's
Cross the difficulties they may encounter from their
condition.
"2359 Homosexual persons are called to chastity. By the virtues of
self-mastery that teach them inner freedom, at times by the support
of disinterested friendship, by prayer and sacramental grace, they
can and should gradually and resolutely approach Christian
perfection."
|9.5.07 @ 7:47AM|#
|9.5.07 @ 8:18AM|#
Then isn't it wonderful that birthrates in certain European
populations are falling below replacement levels! And Japan has
already gotten far below those levels. What wonderful
news.
Considering both places have some of the highest standards of
living in the world while those with high birth rates (Sub-Sahara
Africa) are shit holes, I'd say yeah its great news.
|9.5.07 @ 8:46AM|#
we all realize (contrary to the tabula rasa thing) that
gender, for example, is both biologically AND socially
constructed.
"We" are realizing that mental problems which interfere with
reproduction are most likely the result of brain damage (e.g. from
infection), not "social construction" or genetics other than as
genetics affects resistence to the damage. Ya might as well claim
that autism or schizophrenia are "socially constructed," as was
claimed 50 years ago; "social construction" is the New-agey version
of evil spirits.
I appreciate your wanting to see more press for moderate
Muslims.
Here ya
go:
"Mahmoud Aldebe, chairman of the Swedish Muslim Federation, said
the group would sue the newspaper for inciting hatred against
ethnic groups. "It ridicules our religion. This is discriminating
and insulting... they want to see just how far they are able to go
by pushing the boundaries of press freedom," he said. (AP)
Radical Muslims = psychos.
Moderate Muslims = crybabies.
iih|9.5.07 @ 9:04AM|#
Finkelstein:
Jesus Isaac haven't you been reading these comments? Don't.
Say. Islamic.
Apparently you haven't been reading all comments!
I am against political correctness. I would rather know what it
truly on people's mind than being fooled by their political
correctness.
Please go back and read my comments aboce.
iih|9.5.07 @ 9:08AM|#
Monsieur F. Le Mur:
Moderate Muslims = crybabies.
No. We just don't want what happened to African, Native, Italian,
Irish, Japanese, and German Americans to happen to us.
Or do you want me to say it to you in French, because obviously you
do not read English, otherwise you would have read my comments
above and in other threads that you never even had the guts to
counter.
iih|9.5.07 @ 9:11AM|#
Monsieur F. Le Mur:
And if moderate Muslims are crybabies, you and your elk are
bed-wetters.
This is a breakthrough, I never ever called anyone names. Monsieur
F. Le Mur just had to make me do it. Which proves the point the
moderate Muslims are not crybabies. They too can be as stupidly
offensive as you are. Though I prefer to say that they are more
civilized than a person like you who lacks either the vision or the
intellectual honesty to reflect on what is truly happening in the
world.
|9.5.07 @ 10:34AM|#
you and your elk are bed-wetters
They hate us for our wintry forest animals!
Mad Max - I believe that either Limbo or Purgatory had been
rescinded as an article of faith. Regardless, the point stands that
the Church believes that non-baptized babies don't belong in
Paradise (because the Church saddles us with Original Sin, a
disgusting and evil doctrine that says no matter what, I am
automatically a terrible, terrible person).
Also, the fact that the Holy See is, at best, socialistic and at
its worst, totalitarian in its beliefs doesn't help any.
The issue of population control is irrelevant: the Church believes
that sex is for procreation alone and Christ says that
having natural, sexual thoughts is akin to adultery. Fuck that
noise.
|9.5.07 @ 10:38AM|#
All this talk about Catholics should remind us Bill Donahue and his ilk aren't all that different from Muslims who go on TV and cry when their beliefs are challenged or "insulted".
|9.5.07 @ 10:43AM|#
Actually, Finkelstein, my error was that I neglected to show
that that was a direct quote from the linked NYT article.
Getting serious for a moment though, part of my point was that it
does seem to me that good old-fashioned police work and
intelligence gathering seem to be working remarkably well to expose
these plots.
Mind you, European police agencies *tend* to have powers that our
cops can only fantasize about. As Rick Barton says, these are
dangerous powers for government to have.
|9.5.07 @ 11:48AM|#
Malto,
Why don't you take all of my posts, print them up for the record,
crumple them together into a roughly spherical object and shove
them up your
|9.5.07 @ 11:52AM|#
Dave,
Joe now has a problem with the existence of Muslim terrorists
being mentioned. Nope. Why don't take another crack and that -
maybe look at the comparison I made to the coverage of libertarians
- and see if you can puzzle through what I'm objecting to.
I'll tune back in a few months from now, when he's actually
calling for human sacrifices to be handed over to Al Qaeda to
appease Allah.
God, I am fortunate in my detractors. Human sacrifice?
highnumber|9.5.07 @ 12:59PM|#
iih,
Standard response to Flemur:
Wheeeeeeee!!!!!!
Wheeeeeeeeeee!!!!!!!!
Wheeeeeee!!!!!
Squeal back at him like a pig. That's all he's worth.
SIV|9.5.07 @ 4:11PM|#
Cesar,
There are plenty of academic journals that state
this.
Maybe in the Humanities there are.
I am unaware of any proof that homosexuality is genetically
determined. Statements asserting such are political not
scientific.
|9.6.07 @ 4:15AM|#
"All this talk about Catholics should remind us Bill Donahue and
his ilk aren't all that different from Muslims who go on TV and cry
when their beliefs are challenged or 'insulted'."
All these Catholics speaking their minds . . . it *oppresses*
me!
green mamba|9.6.07 @ 10:09AM|#
highnumber: Standard response to Flemur:
Wheeeeeeee!!!!!!
If that's all you can manage in response to one of the most
intelligent and knowledgeable commenters on this blog, so be
it.
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