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Leaving Cuba
According the Melbourne Herald-Sun, Celia Guevara, Havana-based veterinarian and daughter of photogenic thug Che, was recently granted an Argentinian passport. Sources told the Buenos Aires daily Clarin that though Guevara "has no plans to leave Cuba," she wants her sons to be able to travel freely, a privilege still reserved for the revolutionary elite. For most Cubans, taking a holiday in South Florida is, of course, rather more difficult, as evidenced by Yaditza Lopez's recent efforts to go out on a date with her Internet boyfriend, Mr. Alex Menendez of Miami. The Miami Herald explains:
Menendez, who first saw Lopez's photo on a website called Friends, started chatting with her online and sent her a photo of himself in May 2006. At the time, Lopez was attending a computer programming college in Havana.
As the couple kept communicating, Menendez told Lopez it would be nice if she came to Miami. When he got a call from her about 7 a.m. Friday, he was pleasantly shocked. ''I might marry her,'' he said.
The 22-year-old Lopez had arrived before dawn as part of a contingent of 52 Cuban migrants, including men, women and several young children. They were wet and sunburned but happy to be in South Florida. They said they had been at sea for three days and came from all over the island.
Oddly, the 52 defectors traveling with Lopez eschewed free health care (that's right, it's free in Cuba!) and Fidel Castro's 81st birthday party for an opulent cruise across the Florida Straits. Ungrateful, the lot of them.
Incidentally, Guevara, should she decide to leave her Cuba, would hardly be the first offspring of the revolution to do so. Fidel Castro's sister Juanita lives in Miami, where, until last year, she operated the Mini-Price Pharmacy. After selling her business to CVS, the 74-year-old entrepreneur sold the vacant property for $2.2 million. Castro's only daughter, Alina Fernandez, hosts an opposition radio show in Miami.
|8.14.07 @ 12:45PM|#
I remember a while ago this Miami Spanish-speaking radio station stirred up shit when they prank called Hugo Chauves, playing sound clips of Castro saying random things.
|8.14.07 @ 12:48PM|#
Wow, declaring life under communism to be bad.
Way to stick your neck out on a major controversy. Next up: no one
is going to stop me from declaring that puppies are nice.
|8.14.07 @ 12:49PM|#
For most Cubans, taking a holiday in South Florida is, of
course, rather more difficult
As opposed to how easy it is for an American to take a holiday in
Cuba?
|8.14.07 @ 12:52PM|#
Cesar,
The travel ban to Cuba is, of course, ridiculous and should be
overturned (the embargo too). But you might want to consider that
Cubans can't travel anywhere, whereas Americans...well,
you see what I mean. Not really the same thing.
mm
|8.14.07 @ 12:53PM|#
Michael-
I'm aware of that, it was just a snarky comment, thats all. Of
course the travel restrictions on Cubans are worse.
|8.14.07 @ 12:59PM|#
Next up: no one is going to stop me from declaring that
puppies are nice
...with a little paprika and a lemon sauce, yes.
thoreau|8.14.07 @ 1:12PM|#
joe-
Go nice on Michael Moynihan. He told me on Friday that he's an
Irish guy from Massachusetts, just like you, and he grew up not too
far from where the Original Thoreau lived.
Or maybe the fact that he's a local means you have to be twice as
tough. Local rivalries being so vicious and all that.
Anyway, just tossing it out for whatever it's worth.
Ramsey|8.14.07 @ 1:13PM|#
No, no, no, everyone knows that a tender and flavorful meat like
puppy should not be over-seasoned, it should be lightly grilled
with salt, and the essence of the dish allowed to express itself.
Reprobate, you philistine.
I love the idea of a "revolutionary elite." It makes a handy method
of discovering the next aristocracy to rebel against.
I have always wondered whether absolute power would corrupt me, and
now that I have matured a bit I can honestly say that, yes, it
would. One more reason to fear a government with the power of life
and death over the citizenry. No matter how well intentioned a
government is, it is still made of corruptible human actors.
|8.14.07 @ 1:14PM|#
Wow, declaring life under communism to be bad.
Way to stick your neck out on a major controversy. Next up: no one is going to stop me from declaring that puppies are nice.
joe,
When Cuba is held out as the epotime of successful socialism by
very mainstream people like Micheal Moore, Oliver Stone, etc., and
when very mainstream politicians like Hillary and Obama, and even
Bush to lesser extent, want to emulate those policies... Then it
puts things in perspective to say things in Cuba are bad.
As opposed to how easy it is for an American to take a holiday in Cuba?
It is super easy. Just fly out of Canada or Mexico, and ask the
Cuban officials not to stamp your passport. Or take a private boat
from Miami and do the same thing. Hundreds of thousands of American
tourists go to Cuba every year.
In fact, traveling to Cuba is a slight bit easier than traveling to
Russia or China or India or someplace that you need to aquire a
travel visa beforehand.
|8.14.07 @ 1:19PM|#
The fact that Cuba is so close and so blatantly communist is a
big, fat slosh of tobacco juice in our eye.
But to say that Michael Moore, and therefore Hillary Clinton, wants
to emulate Cuba is sort of a stretch. Of course, if there is a
system that works in such an incredible dump, why souldn't
you want to take a look at it?
The Wine Commonsewer-Reg US Pa|8.14.07 @ 1:25PM|#
Michael. Great Story, enjoyed it very much.
Gloria Estefan once shut Charlie Rose up when she noted that if you
want clean sheets on your Cuban hospital bed you better bring them
from home.
Rex, thanks, excellent points.
The Wine Commonsewer-Reg US Pa|8.14.07 @ 1:28PM|#
Didn't Castro's sister frequently denounce him?
Phil Rizzuto died.
|8.14.07 @ 1:29PM|#
Lamar,
"Of course, if there is a system that works in such an incredible
dump, why souldn't you want to take a look at it?"
Umm, I dunno, maybe because I respect individual rights? Maybe the
issues with state healthcare aren't merely pragmatic ones?
|8.14.07 @ 1:31PM|#
Rex,
When Cuba is held out as the epotime of successful socialism by
very mainstream people like Micheal Moore, Oliver Stone,
etc.,
...you'll let us know. Because noting that even the freaking Cubans
do a better job of providing health care access than we do is not
the equivalent of holding it out as the epitome of successful
socialism.
You make very broad-brush arguments, without nuance or complexity;
that doesn't mean everyone else does, too.
|8.14.07 @ 1:37PM|#
"...Cubans do a better job of providing health care
access"
Imagine if that were true!
|8.14.07 @ 1:37PM|#
"Umm, I dunno, maybe because I respect individual
rights?"
The world just got a little dumber.
|8.14.07 @ 1:40PM|#
I rather doubt that Cuba's healthcare is actually better than
the U.S.'s.
joe,
With this newly discovered joe-Moynihan connection, I think we
finally have found the Affleck-Damon reunion vehicle. Who should
play you? ☺
|8.14.07 @ 1:41PM|#
Lamar,
Cute. I'll remember that next time I need a phrase to cover the
fact that I have nothing substantial to say. Care to explain how
I'm wrong? I won't hold my breath.
|8.14.07 @ 1:47PM|#
I said, [I]f there is a system that works in such an incredible
dump, why souldn't you want to take a look at it?
I don't particular think healthcare in Cuba works, but if they can
put together any kind of program that works in that god-forsaken
land, human rights is not a reason to refuse to look at it.
"Human rights" might be a reason to ultimately reject elements of
the program, but it isn't a reason to refuse to look at the
program, whether it's healthcare or education or whatever.
Further, it is absurd to say that importing parts of Cuba's f*cked
up system would transfer Cuba's human rights problems. It's just
absurd. Refusing extra information for some lame tagline like
"human rights" is absurd. Seeing where other people fail is useful
information. Refusing that information based on some vague and
ill-defined "respect for human rights" is complete buffoonery.
|8.14.07 @ 1:49PM|#
...you'll let us know. Because noting that even the freaking Cubans do a better job of providing health care access than we do is not the equivalent of holding it out as the epitome of successful socialism.
joe, you really believe that Cuba provides better healthcare than
the United States? I live in first-world Canada, and their
socialized system doesn't provide better access to health care than
the United States, yet I am supposed to accept that dirt poor Cuba
has a better health care system? The same Cuba that charges
foreigners who take unauthorized photos of Cuban hospitals with
terrorism?
Sorry joe, it is going to take a bit more than Micheal Moore photo
ops to convince me Cuban style healthcare is the way to go!
|8.14.07 @ 1:51PM|#
"joe, you really believe that Cuba provides better
healthcare than the United States?"
While I disagree with Joe, he actually said Cubans have
better access to healthcare. It's pandemonium here. Is
anybody actually reading anybody else's posts?
|8.14.07 @ 2:00PM|#
Lamar,
What is complete buffoonery is the claim that somehow forcing one
individual to pay another's health care doesn't constitute a
violation of rights.
What is complete buffoonery is you pretending that this argument is
about being open to extra information.
What is beyond buffoonery is your idea that a system 'working' is
independant of human rights issues, that human rights are an
afterthought and that 'working' has any real value outside of a
human rights context.
|8.14.07 @ 2:02PM|#
"What is complete buffoonery is the claim that somehow
forcing one individual to pay another's health care doesn't
constitute a violation of rights."
Show me where I made that claim. You're arguing with ghosts in your
head, and it appears the ghosts are winning.
|8.14.07 @ 2:03PM|#
"While I disagree with Joe, he actually said Cubans have better
access to healthcare. It's pandemonium here. Is anybody actually
reading anybody else's posts?"
True. Furthermore, he didn't specify how many Cubans or which ones
had the better access, so you're right. It's technically
correct.
|8.14.07 @ 2:07PM|#
"It's technically correct."
Yes, correct. I like the idea of "correct." Don't use it as a bad
word.
|8.14.07 @ 2:09PM|#
Lamar,
You are just being dishonest and doing a poor job of hiding it
behind your insults.
Enlighten me. How then are Cubans paying for health care and not
using force? Are Cubans forced to participate in the current
system. Of course. Is health care free? Of course not. Is the cost
of the health care distributed amoung the populous? Yes.
Keep insulting me, though. It says more about you than me.
|8.14.07 @ 2:10PM|#
...I think we finally have found the Affleck-Damon reunion
vehicle.
Affleck can only wish he could get a sweet, sweet gig like PBS'
Arthur like MATT
DAMON DEMAND KURV.
SIV|8.14.07 @ 2:11PM|#
I thought Cubans have better access to health care because they produce more doctors per capita.The United States lets the AMA keep doctors scarce so that earnings are high for the average physician.
|8.14.07 @ 2:15PM|#
"How then are Cubans paying for health care and not using
force?"
I haven't addressed this issue, nor made any of the claims you
tried to put in my mouth. I'm not a proponent of national
healthcare, though you probably assumed as much.
It appears that you are making a high-level argument about the
problems with Cuba's version of nationalized healthcare. You
probably have a point, most everything sucks down there.
But I have to ask again, where have I made any of the claims you
ascribe to me or addressed the issues you're trying to goad me into
addressing right now? The issue I raised was about being open
to more information despite disdain for the country in
general. Anything else is just your imagination running wild.
|8.14.07 @ 2:19PM|#
"Yes, correct. I like the idea of "correct." Don't use it as a
bad word."
Oh, like how it's so ambigious a comment, it could mean just about
anything if you care to parse who constitutes the word "Cubans".
Six Cubans? Two Cubans? All Cubans? Employed Cubans? I suppose
technically speaking, Cubans do have better access to the Cuban
system than they would to the American system, living in Cuba, not
being allowed to leave and all.
I see, correct syntax is what's important here.
|8.14.07 @ 2:35PM|#
kohlrabi:
I honestly don't have a clue what the hell you're talking about.
And yes, syntax generally helps when you're using language to
communicate.
|8.14.07 @ 2:41PM|#
kohlrabi,
Easily done: it is true. Cubans have better access to health care,
but worse health care services.
Any Cuban can set up an appointement for a checkup with a doctor,
regardless of employment or income.
Rex Rhino,
joe, you really believe that Cuba provides better healthcare
than the United States? Nope, just better access. The quality
of the service there is plainly inferior, owing to the lack of
resources. You remember that point I made about your broad,
simplistic arguments? Consider how that might apply to your
conflation of "health care access" to health care in general.
I live in first-world Canada, and their socialized system
doesn't provide better access to health care than the United
States As a matter of fact, for millions of people, it does
provide better access. The number of deaths associated with a lack
of health care access - eg, the inability to go see the doctor - in
the US is estimated at 15,000 per annum. That's a lot of people not
getting that thing checked out until they start pissing blood and
end up in the emergency room.
|8.14.07 @ 2:48PM|#
kohlrabi has convinced me: if we start building a Nazi-style
highway system, we will end up putting people into death camps.
Because that's totally how it works.
SIV,
Their surplus of doctors in part of it, but the state paying for
people to see the doctor is another part.
|8.14.07 @ 2:51PM|#
The issue I raised was about being open to more information
despite disdain for the country in general.
Since when has there been a dearth of information about Cuban
health care? People were singing its praises years before Moore
slipped down for his completely sincere effort to obtain top notch
medical care for the 9/11 workers.
Sure their hospitals are vermin infested hellholes that would rival
our worst snakepits of previous generations but everybody
has access.
As Michael Moore says, the important thing is that we all have
equal access.
|8.14.07 @ 2:52PM|#
Lamar,
Your definition of a system working is independant of whether or
not it violates rights as evidenced here:
"but if they can put together any kind of program that works in
that god-forsaken land, human rights is not a reason to refuse to
look at it."
This is what I'm taking issue with.
|8.14.07 @ 2:57PM|#
Joe,
That is not what I meant at all. What I mean is that I believe it
is a violation of human rights to force citizens to pay for the
health care of other citizens. This is how the Cuban system works
and this is what I'm opposed to. Why is that so hard to understand?
The Cuban system is dependant on that fact. Unlike the Nazi highway
system or whatever. Your snarky analogy is false.
|8.14.07 @ 2:57PM|#
I don't find the access statements compelling. Access to what?
Our healthcare menu is much richer and much deeper than most
countries'. If we socialize, then access to the good stuff will
fade, and we'll have the mediocre healthcare of the rest of the
world. And we will not be there any more to support all of the
technological advances, either, once the incentives of a sorta free
market in healthcare are drastically reduced.
Incidentally, Mexicans have better "access" to pharmaceuticals than
Americans, because they don't require prescriptions. Sounds peachy
to me, but I suspect that sort of access isn't what advocates of
socialized healthcare have in mind.
SIV|8.14.07 @ 3:06PM|#
Incidentally, Mexicans have better "access" to
pharmaceuticals than Americans, because they don't require
prescriptions. Sounds peachy to me, but I suspect that sort of
access isn't what advocates of socialized healthcare have in
mind.
Advocates of free market healthcare should support that kind of
access. Doctors always whine they are powerless NOT to prescribe
when patients demand an advertised drug; so cut out the
middleman/gatekeeper.
|8.14.07 @ 3:08PM|#
Works for me. I have to take Synthroid, and I was sorely tempted to buy a few thousand pills while I was down there.
SIV|8.14.07 @ 3:10PM|#
Their surplus of doctors in part of it, but the state paying
for people to see the doctor is another part.
Adopt the first part then. There is no cost to the State and its
taxpayers. Let the market and individual ambition determine the
number of physicians.
Joshua Holmes|8.14.07 @ 3:15PM|#
Easily done: it is true. Cubans have better access to health
care, but worse health care services.
In which case, I propose a national witch doctor medical program.
That way, even though the quality of the services might be poor
(except for headshrinking), everyone will have free medical
access.
Stalin's useful idiots live on, eh?
fyodor|8.14.07 @ 3:23PM|#
I saw Sicko. While it's true that Moore's focus was on health care, he left the distinct impression of a beneficent society that treated people right and which liked us even as we hate them (borne out by the Cuban firemen nobly paying homage to 9/11 firefighter casualties). Whatever else one might say about Moore and/or our healthcare system, saying that Sicko said nothing about Cuba except for its healthcare system, joe, would not be a very, as you might say, nuanced analysis.
|8.14.07 @ 3:40PM|#
As a matter of fact, for millions of people, it does provide better access. The number of deaths associated with a lack of health care access - eg, the inability to go see the doctor - in the US is estimated at 15,000 per annum. That's a lot of people not getting that thing checked out until they start pissing blood and end up in the emergency room.
You realize that in many places in Canada, there are waiting lists
to get a doctor? People can wait YEARS before they get a doctor?
That when they are sick, they have no choice but to go to the
emergency room? I saw a news program just the other day where
people were camping out for several days, not to get a doctor, but
to sign up for the waiting list to get a doctor!
So yes, in Canada a huge portion of the population won't end up
seeing a doctor until they are pissing blood in the emergency room,
and many of them will die!
The fact that the government promises to pay for health care,
doesn't change the fact that there isn't enough health care to go
around, and many many people will never recieve health care. And
the fact that most doctors make less money than garbage men for a
40 hour week, does nothing to encourage the supply to
increase.
Cubans have better access to health care, but worse health care services.
Great, they all have access to non-existant medical treatment! Why
doesn't the U.S. just pitch empty tents in public parks, call them
"free clinics", and claim universal "access" to medical care Cuba
style!?
|8.14.07 @ 3:41PM|#
"Their surplus of doctors in part of it, but the state
paying for people to see the doctor is another part."
Their surplus of doctors is a human rights violation according to
kohlrabi.
|8.14.07 @ 3:44PM|#
I didn't see Sicko because I stopped watching Michael Moore
trash after Bowling for Columbine (there is something to be said
for the truth). The kind of pandering by the firemen described
sounds like the same old propoganda cheese (do you really think
they acted independently? Do you really believe that the state did
not control everything that Moore's cameras captured?) that Castro
has been spewing out and that the American left has been lapping up
for almost 50 years.
Castro and Moore must laugh themselves to sleep every night.
|8.14.07 @ 3:59PM|#
Lamar,
"Their surplus of doctors is a human rights violation according to
kohlrabi."
If only the server didn't delete the post where I said that, you
could reference it.
Believe it or not, Lamar, we could advocate more doctors here
without looking to Cuba's broken model. Don't worry about that,
though. Tell me again how I have disdain for Cuba or something like
that.
Paul|8.14.07 @ 4:13PM|#
Way to stick your neck out on a major controversy. Next up:
no one is going to stop me from declaring that puppies are
nice.
But joe, they have free healthcare.
I guess you missed Moynihan's joke. It's a jab at people like
Eleanor Clift who always throw out the "cuba has free healthcare"
in response to any criticism of Cuber.
Paul|8.14.07 @ 4:14PM|#
As opposed to how easy it is for an American to take a
holiday in Cuba?
ceasar: Dirty little secret. It's not that hard. It costs, but it's
not that tough.
|8.14.07 @ 4:16PM|#
kohlrabi:
Very simple: I said we should take a look at their system because
it appears to have some parts that work. Their surplus of doctors
appears to be a part of their system that works. You chastized my
argument because, I dunno, you believe in human rights. Recall
that?
I know you don't really believe that, but I had to highlight it
because your arguments are about as subtle as a rhino dildo in a
ice cream shop.
Paul|8.14.07 @ 4:16PM|#
But to say that Michael Moore, and therefore Hillary
Clinton, wants to emulate Cuba is sort of a stretch.
Mmmno, it's not. Hillary Clinton? Maybe a stretch. *Mayyybee* But
Michael Moore just did a little ditty on how great Cuber is for
healthcare.
|8.14.07 @ 4:17PM|#
Broad ideological arguments that chant slogans aren't very apt when analyzing the pieces of a complex system. Just sayin'
|8.14.07 @ 4:18PM|#
Paul: it was the "and therefore Hillary Clinton" part that was a stretch, not the Michael Moore part.
Paul|8.14.07 @ 4:19PM|#
Because noting that even the freaking Cubans do a better job
of providing health care access than we do is not
Joe, they don't. They never have, nor will they ever. Not even
close.
If the Canadians can't even provide better access to medical care
than we can, you think Cuba can? You're smoking crack.
Paul|8.14.07 @ 4:23PM|#
Consider how that might apply to your conflation of "health
care access" to health care in general.
*sigh*.
We got it joe. We got "access" vs. quality. And you're still
Wrong(tm).
And let's just pretend for a new york second that they do provide
better access. How hard is it to provide access to a wholly
inadequate service? The Canadians provide universal access to
NICU's which don't exist. Joe, I'll give you 100%
unfettered access to the MRI machine in my garage. Free. Just come
on in. Oh, it's an infinite waiting list-- 'cause I haven't
installed it yet.
|8.14.07 @ 4:36PM|#
Lamar,
I plainly disagree with your definition of what 'works'.
That is why I chastised your argument. You may have recalled that
had you not been so hell bend on devising clever ways to be
rude.
I don't believe policy can be evaluated in purely pragmatic terms.
Human rights concerns are integral. Singapore's draconian vandalism
policies 'work' by your definition but are atrocious. Perhaps this
makes me an ideologue with arguments that lack subtlety. Fair
enough. You however have been consistently boorish and insulting,
behavior which has unfortunately done little to buttress your claim
that the Cuban system may 'work' in any meaningful way.
|8.14.07 @ 4:53PM|#
I don't believe policy can be evaluated in purely pragmatic
terms. Human rights concerns are integral.
One point that some people seem to miss is that for a system like
Cuba to function, it requires totalitarianism and an abuse of human
rights. It is simply impossible otherwise.
How else to you deny people the right to buy and sell as they
like.
How else to you deny people the advanced medical care they are
willing to pay for?
If you don't understand this simple fact, you will never understand
the way the real world operates.
SIV|8.14.07 @ 5:14PM|#
doctors make less money than garbage men for a 40 hour
week
Well they could have chosen to be garbage men or
studied engineering instead of medicine.
Complexity and responsibility of a job do not necessarily
correspond to compensation. Look at non union airline pilots
earnings for example.
|8.14.07 @ 5:34PM|#
I'm making all fifty of my kids study engineering. I might let
them do something else technical. Under no circumstances may they
study law.
Okay, they're fewer than fifty, but they are rapidly approaching
Brady-like numbers.
Chavez is a thug|8.14.07 @ 9:18PM|#
"Wow, declaring life under communism to be bad.
Way to stick your neck out on a major controversy"
This coming from an idiot who has gone on and on about the
greatness of the Cuban health care system, among other things.
Instead of trying to pen sarcastic rejoinders(trying being the
operative word), perhaps you should stick to defending Chavez and
Castro
I've got another truism: you are an idiot.
Chavez is a thug|8.14.07 @ 9:25PM|#
"Because noting that even the freaking Cubans do a better job of
providing health care access than we do is not
Joe, they don't. They never have, nor will they ever. Not even
close.
If the Canadians can't even provide better access to medical care
than we can, you think Cuba can? You're smoking crack."
Don't even try to argue with joe on this matter. What good would it
do to try and change the "mind" of an individual who has so
wholeheartedly swallowed the propaganda emanating from the
hell-hole he expends so much energy defending. Gullible doesn't
even begin to describe the depths of his jackassery.
He is one of the only people posting on a libertarian message board
that can list "defending third-world thugs" as a hobby (see his
previous posts on the Venezualan TV debacle and the Cuban
healthcare system).
|8.14.07 @ 10:44PM|#
"One point that some people seem to miss is that for a
system like Cuba to function, it requires totalitarianism and an
abuse of human rights. It is simply impossible
otherwise."
While your assertion is up for debate, I would hope that people
thinking about the Cuban system would take it as a very real
possibility. The truth is that many democratic nations that aren't
considered human rights abusers routinely restrict commerce and
medical care. Our Supreme Court recently did just that.
kohlrabi, I appreciate your complement on my cleverness. I tend to
think we can learn something from the failures of ideologues
without staining ourself in the process. Of course, Haiti has all
kinds of human rights abuses...but no health system.
|8.15.07 @ 8:27AM|#
Cubans have better access to health care, but worse health
care services.
This is true only for certain values of "health care", most of
which would be deemed unacceptable to Americans.
So joe really seems to be saying "Cubans have better access to
unacceptably poor health care."* I think we can all agree with
that.
*Always excepting the elite, of course. Like dictators and their
cronies everywhere, they always get the best.
|8.15.07 @ 9:18AM|#
Lamar,
If only said 'health system' had some real value, but alas, as
pointed out earlier it's a system that provides access to virtually
nothing at the cost of individual rights. Hardly what I would call
'working'. Then again, it seems you've abandonded that concept as
well, and are now talking about learning from Cuba's failures.
Quite a departure, but I believe I can agree with that.
BTW, I consider government restriction on commerce and medical care
an abuse of individual rights, hence my first comment.
|8.15.07 @ 9:21AM|#
"Cubans have better access to unacceptably poor health
care."
Please tell us all which caribbean country, or other country with
Cuba's GNP, has "acceptably poor" healthcare? Other than it being
painfully and embarassingly obvious that you know nothing about the
Cuban system, you don't even seem to know much about America's
system outside of your line of sight.
Like I said, Haiti has all kinds of human rights problems, but no
health system.....Oh, wait a second, RC Dean just gave us some
great news. Cuba's system isn't as good as 'Merka's.
*waves tiny American flag*
|8.15.07 @ 9:24AM|#
"Quite a departure"
Quite a departure from whatever ghosts you were arguing
with, not a departure from anything I said. The truth is that one
can't know whether a component of a system is worthy or not before
looking at it.
"I consider government restriction on commerce and medical care
an abuse of individual rights"
By your definition, there is no country in the world that doesn't
have large scale human rights abuses. Your views are just not
realistic, and honestly, they tend to lump Cuba (with real human
rights abuses) in with the rest of the world. Shame on you.
|8.15.07 @ 9:46AM|#
I haven't seen this many people talk past each other since the last abortion thread.
|8.15.07 @ 10:04AM|#
I'm only arguing for an open and informed debate. Some of these other cranks are screaming about human rights, then it turns out that their definition of human rights puts every single country in the world together as a major abuser. I should have just sworn off the bait.
|8.15.07 @ 11:08AM|#
Lamar,
"The truth is that one can't know whether a component of a system
is worthy or not before looking at it."
Fair, but that isn't what you said.
"doesn't have large scale human rights abuses. "
Speaking of fighting ghosts... That's not remotely what I said. Go
back and read what I wrote, you'll find it's entirely
consistent.
"Shame on you."
Spare me. Calling me a crank doesn't change the fact that you're
all over the place. You start out by claiming that if a system
works, it should be looked at. It's been demonstrated that it
doesn't work. You went on to say that that's why we should look at
it. Of course that's what the critics are doing which renders moot
your original comment. Instead of addressing any of this, you call
people names, misrepresent what they've said and change your
story.
|8.15.07 @ 12:04PM|#
"You start out by claiming that if a system works, it should
be looked at."
And it most certainly should be. You claim it doesn't work because
of human rights problems, NOT because of its public health
successes. Which part doesn't work? The whole? Perhaps. The
colleges? Triage? The embargo?
I've read everything you've wrote very carefully, such as:
" I consider government restriction on commerce and medical
care an abuse of individual rights,"
Yes every country in the world does just that. Everybody abuses
individuals rights. Cuba's system doesn't work because they abuse
human rights. Haiti abuses human rights and has no health system,
yet Cuba's system is an abject failure.
"maybe because I respect individual rights"
I said, "I don't particularly think healthcare in Cuba works, but
if they can put together any kind of program that works in that
god-forsaken land, human rights is not a reason to refuse to look
at it."
Further, I should note that you never positively put forth any of
your beliefs, only cheap shots at what you thought I was
arguing.
You: "What is beyond buffoonery is your idea that a system
'working' is independant of human rights issues, that human rights
are an afterthought and that 'working' has any real value outside
of a human rights context."
I still believe a system can work, independently of whether "human
rights" violations occur. You claimed that "government restriction
on commerce and medical care an abuse of individual rights." Under
your defintion, there can be no system without human rights
violations. I'm not making this up, as I've put the quote in this
post twice, just so you can't miss it.
More you, "we could advocate more doctors here without looking
to Cuba's broken model"
But Cuba's model has had success in that area, why would we refuse
to look at it? Oh yeah, because they restrict commerce and abuse
rights.
More you, "it's a system that provides access to virtually
nothing at the cost of individual rights."
At the end of the thread, you finally show your true colors: You've
already concluded that Cuba doesn't work, not only the whole, but
all of its parts, and isn't worth looking into. Perhaps if you
would have laid out some facts supporting this, I would have had an
amicable chat. Instead, you came from out of the blue ranting about
human rights. Quite frankly, you sound like a crazed Miami Cuban,
impervious to any kind of reason.
Your problem is that you start off with a narrow definition of
"working" then assume everybody shares your limited view. Then you
accuse me of changing my story when I point out that the world
isn't as narrow as you see it.
Fine, you've convinced me: everything ever done in Cuba is a
complete failure, and the only reason that the shithole still
exists is because it is a complete failure.
It's public health successes are a testiment to its utter failure.
It's success relative to countries of the region is a testament to
its failure. It's respectable data in the face of limited medicine
and financial resources are a testament to its utter failure.
|8.15.07 @ 1:01PM|#
kohlrabi,
What I mean is that I believe it is a violation of human rights
to force citizens to pay for the health care of other citizens.
This is how the Cuban system works and this is what I'm opposed to.
Why is that so hard to understand?
Because that is a ridiculous and hysterical idea, and I gave you
the benefit of the doubt that you were at least talking about the
actual human rights violations that take place in Cuba.
My mistake. I won't let it happen again. I'll make sure to keep in
mind that, when you're talking about human rights violations in
Cuba, you are refering to tax rates being higher than you like.
|8.15.07 @ 1:07PM|#
Wow, lotta brain donors pretending that a description of an
upside and a downside to a system is a call for its wholesale
adoption. I'm not going to waste my time with any of you.
Paul,
We got it joe. We got "access" vs. quality. And you're still
Wrong(tm).
Really? Michael Moore didn't just find several firefighters who
were being denied treatements in the US, and got them treated in
Cuba? I could have sworn he did.
|8.15.07 @ 1:14PM|#
Chavez is a thug,
Making you look like an idiot is becoming my favorite hobby.
Yeah, look at what I've written " on the Venezualan TV
debacle"
joe | May 18, 2007, 5:57pm | #
Hopefully, this will come back to haunt Chavez in the next
election. This wasn't some dreary news channel, but a popular
station that carried shows with very high ratings. This is the type
of thing that could motivate ordinary, non-political junkies, as it
effects people's daily lives.
joe | May 18, 2007, 6:04pm | #
Grotius,
It looks like the voters are getting the chance to see the other
side of such a system now. Hopefully, the outcome of this will be
an electoral defeat, a term in power for the rightist opposition,
followed by a challenge to them by a chastened, moderated leftist
party.
joe | May 28, 2007, 12:32pm | #
Here's hoping the opposition decides to turn this into a theme for
the next election.
joe | June 5, 2007, 4:08pm | #
"The US government probably would have shut down RCTV within five
minutes after a failed coup attempt - and thrown its owners in
jail."
The U.S. government isn't headed by a man who participated in a
coup attempt!
Tell you what, Hugo, let's ban TV broadcasts by ANYONE who
supported a coup. How's that grab you?
I couold go on and on (and on, and on, and on), but I think I've
made my point.
You make kohlrabie look like an intellectual heavyweight with a
devout commitment to honesty.
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