Reason Magazine
- reason.com
- reason.tv
- reason.org
- Donate
- Site Search:
Reason on Facebook
Reason on Twitter
Reason on YouTube
Reason RSSGet Reason E-mail Updates!
Manage your Reason e-mail list subscriptionsadvertisements
Strippers Take to the Streets
Strippers head out to get signatures, under the
banner of Dancers for Democracy:
COLUMBUS -- Strip club dancers covered Capitol Square today, gathering voter signatures to repeal a new state ban on touching patrons. The law takes effect Sept. 4....
“I’ll have to go and see my constituents,’’ [state senator Eric] Kearney joked when he learned two dancers were from the Deja Vu Showgirls strip club in Mount Carmel.Pamela Ackerman, 24, of Cincinnati and Jennifer Shafer, 22, of Boone County, Ky., were working Third and State streets, easily averaging a signature per minute.
Both dancers, who are paying their way through community college, said the new restrictions were hurt them financially.
Meanwhile, Wendy Shalit, of Return to Modesty fame, is back on the prowl. She has a new book out full of here-come-the-prostitots hysteria (chronicled with enormous and well-placed disdain by Kerry Howley). But how can she complain about politically engaged role-models like these young ladies?
Brian Sorgatz|8.7.07 @ 5:50PM|#
This proves that, no matter how libertarian a guy can get, organized labor isn't always bad.
D. Greene|8.7.07 @ 5:52PM|#
Ohioans are stupid. Yeah, they are.
For an example, just read the comments in this a and the petition
signature drive.
It should be noted that the Citizens for Community Values is led by
an admitted 'former sex addict.'
D. Greene|8.7.07 @ 5:52PM|#
*in this article about the petition signature drive. The blog ate part of my last comment.
Seitz|8.7.07 @ 6:00PM|#
For an example, just read the comments in this a and the
petition signature drive.
Off topic, but why the hell do sites with comment threads set them
up so that the first comment is on the bottom and the newest are on
the top? I hate sites like that.
Brian Sorgatz|8.7.07 @ 6:03PM|#
Burress pointed out that even under the new law, strip clubs
can continue to operate 18 hours a day. "What the other side is
doing is pushing these girls out front with these (economic) sob
stories."
You heartless libertarians! Where's your pity for all the
embarrassing boners men will suffer because these ruthless bitches
want college degrees?
|8.7.07 @ 6:11PM|#
Girls who are putting themselves through college by performing
in strip clubs are out petitioning so they can continue to touch
their ... um ... audience. Seems to me that the touching aspect
converts those audience members into clients ... and moves away
from performance art and into some mild form of prostitution.
I mean, apparently those girls couldn't put themselves through
college with what they would earn in a non-touching environment, so
they are arguing for a touching environment so they can meet their
nut? Their logic implies that they would make even more money for
college if there were some form of (asexual) penetration, and still
more for hardcore engagement, so why not git out there and petition
for that?
I guess the line has to be drawn somewhere ...
x,y|8.7.07 @ 6:26PM|#
"Dancers for Democracy" is a stupid name for this group. Democracy is the reason there's a law prohibiting touching in the first place.
Sarah Silverman fan|8.7.07 @ 6:28PM|#
"I think strippers should be role models for little girls...if only for the fact that they wax their assholes. I don't have the balls to wax my asshole. The closest I ever came to waxing my asshole was I got it washed and styled once."
Garth|8.7.07 @ 6:29PM|#
James,
You are apparently unfamiliar with the common practice known as a
"lap dance" for which strippers can charge a ridiculous amount per
dance (which lasts all of a song or so) and can be performed again
and again and again. Without touching there is no lap dance, merely
stripping which may, or may not, result in modest tips - especially
if the ladies have to remain on stage.
But let us assume that lad dances come close to prostitution. So
what? Prostitution should be legal.
|8.7.07 @ 6:37PM|#
Both dancers, who are paying their way through community
college, said the new restrictions were hurt them
financially.
Isn't this just a given with strippers? Every stripper, in every
strip club, in every city I have every visited was stripping to pay
her way through college.
|8.7.07 @ 6:55PM|#
My first and only time at a strip club was before my wedding.To me it was like ordering a steak at Out Back and watching someone else eat it.
|8.7.07 @ 7:02PM|#
According to the article, in addition to the no-touching rule the law would enforce no nude or partially nude dancing between midnight and 6am. I could see how this would put a major crimp into their operations (after midnight is one of the busiest times) and sounds like it's designed to do just that, rather than any legitimate reason. ("Look, you still have 18 hours a day! We're not stopping you from the breakfast crowd business....)
|8.7.07 @ 7:05PM|#
MP,
That must have been a good club. Most of them are like ordering a
Big Mac and watching someone else eat it.
|8.7.07 @ 7:07PM|#
"Strip club dancers covered Capitol Square today" Damn I should
have gone into politics!
I agree with Garth, while lap dances are not prostitution, so what
if they were? Both should be legal. No one is forcing you or I to
get one (except for the impersonal force that is heterosexuality)
or the girl to give one.
M|8.7.07 @ 7:10PM|#
Gimme/Michael P -
And CS Lewis must have gone to the best:
"You can get a large audience together for a strip-tease
act-that is, to watch a girl undress on the stage. Now suppose you
came to a country where you could fill a theatre by simply bringing
a covered plate on to the stage and then slowly lifting the cover
so as to let every one see, just before the lights went out, that
it contained a mutton chop or a bit of bacon..."
miche|8.7.07 @ 7:35PM|#
As a former stripper, I can vouch for the fact that lap dances
are where the cash is made. Stage time is simply an advertisement.
Lap dances are more fun for the stripper and the customer in areas
where some touching is allowed. Touching does not mean handjob, but
as someone else already said, so what if it did.
My stripping career was pretty short but I started waiting tables
in a club because I wanted to go back to school. When I saw that I
could make in a night dancing what I made in a week at a 9-5, I
drank liquid courage (tequila) and got on stage. If I knew then
what I know now about money, I would have worked double shifts
everyday until nobody was paying to see me. Instead, I worked on a
PRN basis.
|8.7.07 @ 7:58PM|#
Oh. "Lap dances." I get it now. So this is really about banning "lap dances"? I mean, what other touching goes on at these places where girls get to both pay for college (presumably not liberal arts) and grind their (I assume covered) privates on some guy's crotch in a bar for money while perpetuating a vile stereotype? Amazing. I appreciate the defense of personal freedom, but arguing FOR "touching" in this context seems awfully artless. I guess I'm an old fuddy-duddy ...
|8.7.07 @ 8:00PM|#
Just a thought ... if "touching" went unregulated, how many strip club managers do you think would start to include more than lap dancing in their dancer requirements? And please reassure me that the privates ARE, in fact, covered ... please ...
|8.7.07 @ 8:07PM|#
Damn! I can't believe I missed it. I'm right in downtown
Columbus, but didn't go out at lunch. . . .
And for REAL joy, I got a recorded-voice "poll" from our unlamented
ex-Secretary of State mentioning the anti-stripping-law petition
and asking whether I supported "protecting children and families"
by fighting against the petition. I wonder what I might have been
told if I had lied and said yes?
Isn't this just a given with strippers? Every stripper, in
every strip club, in every city I have every visited was stripping
to pay her way through college.
According to my brother, the one in Nevada that he really liked was
stripping to pay off a $350,000 home mortgage in an incredibly
short amount of time.
|8.7.07 @ 8:37PM|#
"And please reassure me that the privates ARE, in fact, covered
... please ..."
Jesus James you are indeed quite the old fuddy duddy! You do know
we all came out of privates don't you? And they weren't
covered...
|8.7.07 @ 8:54PM|#
Every stripper, in every strip club, in every city I have
every visited was stripping to pay her way through
college.
I'm sure I can't match your level of, er, experience, but are you
sure they really were paying their way through college or were they
just saying that?
|8.7.07 @ 8:58PM|#
"Dancers for Democracy" is a stupid name for this
group.
I dunno, "Dancers for Frottage" just isn't as catchy.
|8.7.07 @ 9:03PM|#
You do know we all came out of privates don't you? And they
weren't covered...
There goes my lunch. My mom. Giving birth. While lap dancing.
Urp.
I will semi-quietly withdraw to the bathroom, now.
(PS: Sounds like the money's pretty good! I'm gonna enroll my kids
in classes ASAP!)
Rick H.|8.7.07 @ 9:05PM|#
Just a thought ... if "touching" went unregulated, how many
strip club managers do you think would start to include more than
lap dancing in their dancer requirements?
Yes, and women would then be forced to take jobs at such
clubs! Perpetuating vile stereotypes! Artlessly grinding their
uncovered privates! Clearly, government needs to step in.
|8.7.07 @ 9:37PM|#
"Oh. "Lap dances." I get it now. So this is really about banning
"lap dances"? I mean, what other touching goes on at these places
where girls get to both pay for college (presumably not liberal
arts) and grind their (I assume covered) privates on some guy's
crotch in a bar for money while perpetuating a vile stereotype?
Amazing. I appreciate the defense of personal freedom, but arguing
FOR "touching" in this context seems awfully artless. I guess I'm
an old fuddy-duddy ..."
I bathed my arms, up to the elbows, in foul, wretched mixtures of
half eaten food, human saliva, gristle and snotty kleenexes SANS
GLOVES for 3.35 an hour when I was a kid. I would give anything to
be attractive enough to have people want to throw hundreds, and
thousands of dollars at me for shaking my body in front of them.
There's nothing wrong with nudity, or prostitution, unless you're a
repressed, anti-sex throwback from the american taliban who wants
to make sure that no one can see those dirty, DIRTY bodyparts that
everyone has but some people have better shaped.
When sex is as open and as free as smiles we'll find see the
near-utopia humans are capable of. Murders will be an anomoly, and
rapes will be shockingly rare.
|8.7.07 @ 9:42PM|#
Government has already stepped in ...
The fact is, "touching", short of intercourse or oral sex or hand
jobs, is already allowed in most states ... the trick ... pardon
the pun ... is that the environment must be a "private party". In
other words, the chick-as-sex-hole that "performs" at a "private
party" (no general admission) can stick licorice up her privates
and let the bridegroom-to-be munch it out while she squats over his
face, but in a "public" environment, like a "strip" club, she can
only run around nude, at most. (I can provide legal references,
however it would be insulting, amid this group of Internet
familiars.)
How about this compromise, already supported by existing law:
If you ladies want to make the big bucks getting naked for guys
that enjoy your subjugation to the prevailing stereotype (and don't
gimme that "empowerment" crap ... waaaaay too selfish to make a
satisfying argument), then join an outfit where you get shuttled
around to "private parties" by a jamoke with a .38 in his fanny
pack to protect you from the extreme gropers, and don't expect your
neighborhood "strip" joint to put you through college.
Damn. I'm agreeing with the 1st comment, more and more.
@Frank Booth
I couldn't agree more ... but this isn't about the beautiful utopia
of sex and freedom that you describe ... it's about power and
money. There ain't no flower children stripping in Cleveland.
|8.7.07 @ 9:46PM|#
Frank Booth,
I wanted to write a joke post complaining about American Puritanism
and comparing it to a Muslim theocracy, but I see you beat me to
it. The difference is, you didn't seem to mean it as a joke.
|8.7.07 @ 9:49PM|#
Oh - oh - oh !! I almost forgot!
"Stripper Soldiers: Fighting the War on Terror One Lap at a
Time"
(I thought of that in the bathroom. :) )
|8.7.07 @ 10:10PM|#
Last one ... I think my work is almost done, here.
@crimethink: You funny!
Okay ... I'm flip-flopping.
Lap dancing is good. Very good. With one requirement: Lap dancers
must be outfitted with explosives-and-plutonium-detecting sensors
in order to process individuals as part of some Homeland Security
project.
It's almost a certainty that visiting terrorists, and probably
homegrowns, too, will visit a strip club at some point before they
say their final farewells. Ergo, this is a target-rich environment
for "sniffing" out terrorists.
I think it has a chance of getting funded, frankly.
miche|8.7.07 @ 10:37PM|#
Funny how I could go to a traditional dance club in Dallas and
grind my ass into a man's crotch on the dance floor but as soon as
the club name was changed from "Stark Club" to "The Lodge" and I
accepted a twenty instead of a drink, it became illegal.
If you ladies want to make the big bucks getting naked for guys that enjoy your subjugation to the prevailing stereotype (and don't gimme that "empowerment" crap ... waaaaay too selfish to make a satisfying argument), then join an outfit where you get shuttled around to "private parties" by a jamoke with a .38 in his fanny pack to protect you from the extreme gropers, and don't expect your neighborhood "strip" joint to put you through college.
That's silly. Strippers don't get paid by the clubs; they are
self-employed and pay the clubs for provided benefits. The strip
joint doesn't pay for the education or whatever else the woman is
working for.
Private parties can be dangerous even with a body guard. The
neighborhood strip joint provides some safety, a built in
advertising machine, a merchant account for credit card
transactions, and some competition. There are people on board who
can fight chargebacks when some guy's wife finds the bill and
disputes it. If there is a vice raid, generally attorneys are on
board to help. (I worked at one club that had a "Dragon Slayer"
shot special when vice was in.)
Stripping is not necessarily "empowering" but to the woman who has
no hang up with nudity, it is less exploitive than a cubical job.
You pay the club to work, so there is no real boss and aside from
following the law and club rules, you can do what you are
comfortable with. The stripper decides her schedule and her income.
Kiddo sick? No need to call in, beg off time and then worry about
your job. Going on vacay? Find a club in the city you're visiting
and work there. Write off a portion of the trip as an expense.
Clothes are costumes and the purchase and care of them are a
business expense.
The downside of stripping is the same as any other service
industry, tending bar or waiting tables for example. The hours are
goofy and some people party too much. Of course, with stripping,
there is this "You are a whore!" mentality.
In the end it is a personal choice not much different than that of
a pro ball player, an actor, or even a CEO. The nudity just scares
people who've never seen a pretty form and some people, like my
husband, who are worried about the opinions of the
aforementioned.
My stripping career spanned two of my >20 year work experience
and not a day of it scarred me.
Jason Sonenshein|8.7.07 @ 10:42PM|#
James, regarding your proposed compromise at 9:42 pm,
I'd rather keep the lap dancing at strip clubs in commercial zones,
where it won't bother me, than encourage more of it at private
parties in residential neighborhoods.
I don't think I'd want one of my neighbors regularly holding adult
entertainment parties, making noise and taking up all of the street
parking. Whatever goes on at the strip clubs on Brookpark Road, by
contrast, doesn't bother me at all.
miche|8.7.07 @ 10:54PM|#
I must also add that The Lodge's owner is a Greek immigrant who
made good. He and his wife were fabulous to the women who worked at
their club. (Yearly Xmas parties at the family's G-rated pizza
restaurant had Santa and presents for the kids. They took care of
the women in bigger ways, but this is something that stuck out. It
is a family business in every way, but opponents of the industry
fail to mention it.)
Funny Lodge commercial
The Lodge
website
|8.7.07 @ 10:58PM|#
Mad Max:
Yeah, my comment was a bit of a rant. But, I truly feel that even
though we've made great strides towards sexual freedom, we've only
really scratched the surface. The problem is, it takes at least a
generation for a new idea to be accepted, and since there are many
new ideas about sexuality that I feel will one day be accepted in a
truly free society, I think we have a long way to go. This road to
sexual liberty is fought against foot by foot, and inch by inch by
the religious right, the extreme feminists, and by the
non-religious who find sex repugnant in a way that they can't seem
to express logically but still claim it "just isn't right".
You seem to find the comparisons to the Taliban to be hyperbole,
and to an extent they are. But, we aren't so far away from
religious extremism affecting our sex lives. Not even 40 years ago,
about half of a standard american lifetime, being killed for being
attracted to the same sex, for sleeping with someone of a different
race, or just being born of a certain race was quite common. We
like to pretend that modern americans have wholeheartedly given up
these prejudices, but as someone who grew up both religious, and in
a small town, I can attest to the thick ties that still bind many
people to these antiquated and frightening ideals.
When I was 14, in Lincoln City, Oregon, my mainstream Baptist
church handed out pro ballot measure 9 pamphlets. Measure 9 would
have prevented gays and lesbians from being married and having
legal protections for them written into the law. Even though I may
disagree with hate crime legislation due to it inherantly treating
people differently, I was a bit shocked at the propoganda our
church was handing out.
The pamphlet given to me by my church (obviously political but tax
exempt I might add) informed me what those horrible, dirty faggots
were into. It also provided a detailed description of these acts
which include: Fisting (ouch!), Water Sports (ick!), Kiddie Porn
(ugh!), Leather (ehh...), Sadomasochism (huh?), and rape (oh no!),
amongst others. I learned that those conniving butt-pirates were
scuttling around elementary school playgrounds, leering at little
boys and plotting to sodomize anything that couldn't outrun their
sashaying, limp-wristed gang fuck schemes. My friends and I were
horrified. We, along with many other god-fearing church goers
decided to do whatever it takes to protect our little brothers from
the baneful, shifty-eyed lavender menace. This included
violence.
Thankfully, I actually met one of those non-human sodomites and
learned that they are just people, good and bad and indifferent as
anyone else. But, a lot of people I grew up with never learned any
different. These people are still there, teaching their kids the
same thing.
My point is, I guess, that we aren't as far away from stoning
people for improper masturbatory fantasies as we seem to think.
Jennifer|8.7.07 @ 11:09PM|#
Crimethink should be grateful I'm too moral to say something
like "abortion should be legal" here.
I didn't do lap dances; table dances were the rule where I worked.
But the no-touching laws were so ridiculously strict, you could
technically be busted for prostitution if you shook someone's hand
at the end of a shift.
If you ladies want to make the big bucks getting naked for guys
that enjoy your subjugation to the prevailing stereotype (and don't
gimme that "empowerment" crap ... waaaaay too selfish to make a
satisfying argument)
Topless, not naked, is as far as I cared to go, but actually,
"empowering" might well be the word for what an 18-year-old feels
when she's effortlessly paying for college by making anywhere from
$30 to $100+ an hour dolling herself up and dancing to songs she
likes. Beats the hell out of working minimum wage in a retail shop
or fast-food joint. So what's the big deal?
D. Greene|8.8.07 @ 12:41AM|#
Strip club
lap dance ban in Ohio, or the Right to Bare Asses. (shameless
blog plug)
I've been bitching about this for months and nobody seems to care,
because, you know, it doesn't affect them. Neither does the
statewide smoking ban.
|8.8.07 @ 1:03AM|#
If you ladies want to make the big bucks getting naked for guys
that enjoy your subjugation to the prevailing stereotype (and don't
gimme that "empowerment" crap ... waaaaay too selfish to make a
satisfying argument), then join an outfit where you get shuttled
around to "private parties" by a jamoke with a .38 in his fanny
pack to protect you from the extreme gropers, and don't expect your
neighborhood "strip" joint to put you through
college.
First of all, there are also male strippers who strip to the
prevailing stereotype. Last I checked, we still basically have a
free market. Second of you, who are you to tell young women what
they can or can't do? In fact, since you're trying to tell women
what to do, let me offer you some advice: Shut up.
miche|8.8.07 @ 1:18AM|#
First of all, there are also male strippers who strip to the prevailing stereotype.
All too true, but they aren't called whores; their counterparts and
customers are.
Men aren't perceived as weak so there is no outrage over a bridal
party groping dicks and doing body shots off of them. I'm no
feminist, but this set up shows what is really at work. I watched
Doug Stanhope (No Refunds)the other night and have to agree with
his assessment: Women will never be equal because women's
"privates" are treated dirty.
/do the bump and suck a cock
Abdul|8.8.07 @ 2:42AM|#
Of course, with stripping, there is this "You are a whore!"
mentality.
If someone pays you for a sex act, then you are kind of a
whore.
(disclaimer that whoring should, of course, be legal in the other
49 states)
miche|8.8.07 @ 3:02AM|#
If you are working for somebody other than yourself, you are the
worst kind of whore. You've sold your mind and soul as well as your
body. Piss test and dissent biatch- see where it gets you.
(trashed and going to bed)
Arpigi Enpici|8.8.07 @ 4:16AM|#
>>> I guess the line has to be drawn somewhere
...
Yes, and it's drawn by the two consenting adults involved, and NO
ONE ELSE.
Some day this dipshit, control freak world will figure that
out.
|8.8.07 @ 5:30AM|#
"Both dancers, who are paying their way through community
college, said the new restrictions were hurt them
financially."
Say what?
|8.8.07 @ 6:46AM|#
I don't think the motives for making money are in any way
related to crux of the problem. I don't care if they're putting
themselves through college, paying off a mortgage or plotting a
violent coup in some 3rd world nation.
The things they are spending their money on don't have anything to
do with the fact that they are protecting their financial
interests.
Regardless of what you think of their profession shouldn't *they*
be able to do it in a way that most benefits them?
Most of the strip clubs that i've been to (in several different
countries- yay military) have a distinct no touch rule. The lap
dance booths are video taped and monitored and girls that do
special favors are fired. The girls can touch you but you don't
touch them.
If someone can give me a single salient link between stripping,
strip clubs, or strippers, and children & families i'll believe
that there is more to this than a bunch of hot air and butt hole
abrasions.
|8.8.07 @ 7:20AM|#
I think of Miche and Jennifer as, in their own way, freedom
fighters for the ideal of libertarian values. HOORAY for
them!!!
Now, where is the link to their "Gyrating for freedom" website?...
which I want to visit,... to support libertarian ideals.
|8.8.07 @ 8:16AM|#
"Both dancers, who are paying their way through community
college..."
Stereotype alert. I guess it's good that they have already passed
the GED.
Jennifer, is this how you made it through junior college? :-)
Jennifer|8.8.07 @ 8:24AM|#
Wayne, that's how I made it through grad school. And,
while I love my current job and wouldn't give it up to go back to
dancing, from time to time I'll still hear a new song and think
"Damn, that would be fun to pole-dance to."
If someone pays you for a sex act, then you are kind of a
whore.
And yet I've never considered stripping a sex act on par with
prostitution or gambling. It's simply a matter of showing body
parts some people find shocking. In Saudi Arabia, if it were legal,
you could probably make just as much money wearing shorts and a
T-shirt on stage: by Allah, she's showing her face! And
her elbows and knees! How scandalous!
When I started, in Virginia, we wore bikinis. Dancing in a bikini
on a beach isn't considered a sex act, yet doing the same dance on
a stage somehow is. Yeah, whatever.
|8.8.07 @ 8:27AM|#
"(I worked at one club that had a "Dragon Slayer" shot special
when vice was in.)'
Honey, you lost me on this one. I do not understand what you are
talking about.
|8.8.07 @ 8:34AM|#
Jennifer,
I was joking with you, which I am sure you recognized. It is
utterly apparent to me that you are very intelligent. The fact that
you were a stripper only makes you even more irrestible.
You were in grad school when you were 18? Wow.
|8.8.07 @ 8:37AM|#
I love how some people will always try to blur the lines so that
they can include more and more people into that portion of society
that feel morally superior to.
A "sex act" involves penetration. Anything less is just titillation
and is hardly new or shocking.
|8.8.07 @ 8:45AM|#
"A "sex act" involves penetration. Anything less is just
titillation and is hardly new or shocking."
So Clinton was right,
he...did...not...have...sex...with...that...woman...
Jennifer|8.8.07 @ 8:46AM|#
I love how some people will always try to blur the lines so
that they can include more and more people into that portion of
society that feel morally superior to.
And if "I've never danced onstage in scanty clothes" is the most
bragworthy thing about you, or even in the top one thousand, you
need to seriously reconsider what you've done with your life.
|8.8.07 @ 8:52AM|#
Frank Booth,
"Not even 40 years ago, about half of a standard american lifetime,
being killed for being attracted to the same sex, for sleeping with
someone of a different race, or just being born of a certain race
was quite common."
Going back 40 years would put us back in the 60s. Are you saying
that gay sex and interracial sex were as dangerous then as wearing
the wrong gang colors is today, as far as the risk of murder is
concerned? You say "quite common," which would suggest that you
couldn't even walk down to the corner grocery without tripping over
the bodies of dead sexual dissidents.
Even in the Dark Ages of the 1960s, there were things going on
which might not pass muster under the Taliban, things like braless
hippie chicks, James Bond's girlfriend Pussy Galore on the big
screen, that sort of thing.
Qutb, one of the intellectual godfathers of Islamism, came to
America in the late 40s/early 50s, when the sexual repression was
even worse than in the strait-laced Sixties. Which reaction do you
think he had?
(a) "Wonderful! This is exactly the sort of strict Puritanical
regime that I would like to emulate in the Islamic world!"
(b) "I am appalled at the sexual libertinism and degeneracy of the
Americans!"
The correct answer is (b), by the way.
|8.8.07 @ 8:56AM|#
MK,
actually, after thinking about it, a BJ is more of an engulfment
than a penetration, i.e. the blower is the active participant
whilst the blowee is simply squirming and trying not to get any on
her dress.
Jennifer|8.8.07 @ 9:56AM|#
but this isn't about the beautiful utopia of sex and freedom
that you describe ... it's about power and money. There ain't no
flower children stripping in Cleveland.
Wow. A guy on a pro-capitalist libertarian chat board is
complaining about women who are motivated by the desire to make a
profit, rather than a hippie Communist "money is evil and
everything should be free" ethos.
The writers who produce content for this magazine... whores, all of
them. This isn't about some beautiful utopia of capitalism and
freedom. It's about power and money. There ain't no flower children
writing Reason articles in DC.
Abdul|8.8.07 @ 10:01AM|#
I love how some people will always try to blur the lines so
that they can include more and more people into that portion of
society that feel morally superior to.
Who's blurring the lines? People pay strippers to dance (an act)
for sexual gratification. Paying people for sexual gratification is
also called whoring. Trying to pretend it was something else
because there was no penetration, or parts were covered by a
bikini, or whatever is blurring the lines.
|8.8.07 @ 10:03AM|#
"And yet I've never considered stripping a sex act on par
with prostitution or gambling."
Gambling as a sex act? Is that like the Monopoly where you pass
"Blow" instead of Go, and land on "Mediter-anal-ean" or "Ball-tic"?
Jail is still jail, of course. No need to change that.
|8.8.07 @ 10:20AM|#
I love all of the perpetuating stereotypes bullshit. What
stereotypes? That women are "sexual objects"? Is that the
impression a reasonable person gets when they see certain women
flaunting their physical form instead of their mental attributes.
Next time you're at a football game, ask yourself: is football
perpetuating the stereotype of men as "sports objects," flaunting
their physical form instead of mental attributes?
For most people, except complete morons, seeing a person in one
role shouldn't lead you to believe that such a person -- and the
entire class of people they putatively represent -- are only
capable of fulfilling that one role.
Let me also apologize ahead of time for perpetuating the stereotype
about men as
"commenting-in-reason-threads-about-strippers-objects."
thoreau|8.8.07 @ 10:37AM|#
But Jennifer, it used to be all about the art of it. Then it
went commercial, and it's all about the money now.
*Generic complaint that can be used about ANYTHING under the
sun.
|8.8.07 @ 10:39AM|#
I'm sorry, I'm still imagining Jennifer and miche pole dancing naked. I'll be back a while later.
|8.8.07 @ 10:39AM|#
Chris S.: How does one comment on strippers as a class without stereotyping? Should we get a valid survey done before we claim that strippers aren't discovering the cure for cancer?
|8.8.07 @ 10:40AM|#
"But Jennifer, it used to be all about the art of
it."
If by "art" you mean pullin' hose, then yes.
|8.8.07 @ 10:45AM|#
Chris S.: How does one comment on strippers as a class
without stereotyping?
I don't know, which is why I used the word "putatively." I'm not
suggesting that one stripper actually represents all strippers or
all women. In fact, the idea strikes me as ridiculous.
Should we get a valid survey done before we claim that
strippers aren't discovering the cure for cancer?
Huh?
Pepe|8.8.07 @ 10:49AM|#
Dammit! I'm stuck in Cleveland for 9 months or my job and one of
the only things this town has going for it is the fact that you can
touch the strippers. And that the lap dances cost 10 bucks.
I'm used to the west coast where it costs 30 bucks to get in, the
dances cost 20 and there is a giant dude who is probably packing
watching your every move. You touch the girl even by accident and
your ass is on the street.
Ohio, on the other hand, appears to be a free-for-all. The touching
isn't just the girl grinding her covered parts on your lap. It's
you putting your hands on her bare parts too. And a
through-the-pants handjob or blowjob is not unheard of either.
Florida is the only place I know of with laxer rules than
this.
Oh and that's a good thing. After September this place is going to
be even more unbearable.
|8.8.07 @ 10:56AM|#
Pepe,
So there are people in Ohio who want Cleveland's strip clubs to
observe the same limits as strip clubs on "the west coast," that
notorious Taliban bastion? How repressive!
|8.8.07 @ 11:11AM|#
"Florida is the only place I know of with laxer rules than
this."
That only applies to politicians in public restrooms....
|8.8.07 @ 11:13AM|#
wayne,
Also, I would think that if anybody's empowered by oral sex, it's
the person with the teeth in the area of contact.
Mad Max,
one of the intellectual godfathers of Islamism, came to America
in the late 40s/early 50s,
Which intellectual godfather? When?
|8.8.07 @ 11:15AM|#
Women will never be equal because women's "privates" are
treated dirty.
Which is why they show up on screen far, far more frequently than
men's, right?
|8.8.07 @ 11:23AM|#
Paying people for sexual gratification is also called
whoring.
So being attractive and allowing men to look at you equals sexual
gratification which leads logically to a woman being a whore.
Sounds like all women who aren't in chadors are whores, yup.
Either you are complete douchebag or you are just another troll.
Either way you're not worth my time.
|8.8.07 @ 11:33AM|#
Sluts are disgusting. Strippers are all sluts.
I'll bet that you repeat this to yourself over and over while
wanking to the porn you downloaded.
miche|8.8.07 @ 11:39AM|#
Some of you need to actually go to a strip club. Most aren't as
bad as you think. With the exception of one Atlanta trip, I danced
topless. The all nude clubs are actually more strict than the
topless ones. (Can't spread your legs more than 6" apart, 3' away
on table dances, no bending over on stage, etc.)
"(I worked at one club that had a "Dragon Slayer" shot special when vice was in.)'
Honey, you lost me on this one. I do not understand what you are talking about.
Vice cops can be quite nasty. As Jennifer pointed out, a dancer can
be arrested for prostitution if she shakes the hand of a guy she
danced for. When (known) vice officers came into the club, the DJ
would announce a shot special. Whether or not you were actually
doing something illegal, it helped you be particularly mindful.
Kinda like having a radar detector in your car.
This ex stripper (WHORE! see I saved some of you bastards a few key
strokes- save your strength for a real issues) has to run to meet
my patent attorney.
Jennifer|8.8.07 @ 11:44AM|#
You know what's really degrading for a woman? Working at McDonald's. I did so for awhile in high school, and the men I served didn't care jack shit about my intellect. They saw me as nothing more than a way to get a piece of meat (with a side order of fries).
|8.8.07 @ 12:14PM|#
You know what's really degrading for a woman? Working at
McDonald's. I did so for awhile in high school, and the men I
served didn't care jack shit about my intellect. They saw me as
nothing more than a way to get a piece of meat (with a side order
of fries).
The worst part is that you were perpetuating stereotypes about
women serving fries. After hearing that story, I won't be able to
look at another woman without thinking "fry-whore."
dhex|8.8.07 @ 12:19PM|#
"The writers who produce content for this magazine... whores,
all of them. This isn't about some beautiful utopia of capitalism
and freedom. It's about power and money. There ain't no flower
children writing Reason articles in DC."
that's not true; they have a theme song:
"c'mon people now / sell stuff to your brother / everyone get
together / and engage in non-coercive trade right now..."
|8.8.07 @ 12:20PM|#
Jennifer: I'm sure they appreciated your ability to find the "fry" button within 30 seconds of their order.
|8.8.07 @ 12:25PM|#
crimethink,
I was referring to Sayyid Qutb, the Egyptian intellectual whose
desire to overthrow secular regimes in the Muslim world and adopt
his strict version of "pure" Islam was inspirational to many
subsequent Islamic radicals. See
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qutb
From the article:
"From 1948 to 1950, he went to the United States on a scholarship
to study the educational system . . .
"Qutb was extremely critical of many things in the United States:
its materialism, individual freedom, economic system, racism,
brutal boxing matches, poor haircuts, triviality, restrictions on
divorce, enthusiasm for sports, 'animal-like' mixing of the sexes
(which went on even in churches), and lack of support for the
Palestinian struggle. . . .
"Qutb concluded that major aspects of American life were
'primitive' and shocking. His experiences in the U.S. partly formed
the impetus for his rejection of Western values and his move
towards radicalism upon returning to Egypt."
At least America has eased up on those pesky "restrictions on
divorce" since Qutb's visit.
|8.8.07 @ 12:41PM|#
You know what's really degrading for a woman? Working at
McDonald's.
Do fries come with that shake, baby?
|8.8.07 @ 12:52PM|#
"Qutb was extremely critical of many things in the United States: its materialism, individual freedom, economic system, racism, brutal boxing matches, poor haircuts, triviality, restrictions on divorce, enthusiasm for sports, 'animal-like' mixing of the sexes (which went on even in churches), and lack of support for the Palestinian struggle. . . .
It's a good thing irony died, or this would have killed it.
|8.8.07 @ 1:03PM|#
Jake Boone,
Come to think of it, it *is* a bit much for Islamic radicals to
criticize *our* fashion sense.
|8.8.07 @ 4:04PM|#
The all nude clubs are actually more strict than the topless
ones. (Can't spread your legs more than 6" apart, 3' away on table
dances, no bending over on stage, etc.)
Geez, I haven't been to a strip club in quite a few years, and I
don't remember any of these particular rules being in place, or
being enforced if they were.
I guess being a coastal hedonist, stripping seems so "mainstreamed"
now that I have a difficult time imagining anyone getting upset
about it, other than Dworkinite feminists.
|8.9.07 @ 11:33PM|#
"Going back 40 years would put us back in the 60s. Are you
saying that gay sex and interracial sex were as dangerous then as
wearing the wrong gang colors is today, as far as the risk of
murder is concerned? You say "quite common," which would suggest
that you couldn't even walk down to the corner grocery without
tripping over the bodies of dead sexual dissidents."
Your assuming that by "quite common" I mean pervading every part of
society constantly, is incorrect. I meant that it was happening on
a regular basis. Lynching did happen. Beatings did happen. Murders
did happen. Blacks and gays were often the subjects of this merely
for their blackness or gayness. So yes, it was quite common,
although you didn't have to play hopscotch over their
corpses.
Also, just because a muslim cleric with extreme views doesn't like
the US's sexual mores doesn't mean that you can't find a similar
line of reasoning within current US anti-sex groups. I'm sure the
cleric you speak of wouldn't like how some muslim countries also
let their women drive cars and go out of the house alone. This
doesn't make these "modern" muslim countries a guiding light of
sexual freedom. The fact is: some people can't stand other people's
genitals feeling tingly. They make laws to prevent this. This is a
Taliban mindset.
Site comments/questions:
Media Inquiries and Reprint Permissions:
(310) 367-6109
Editorial & Production Offices:
3415 S. Sepulveda Blvd.
Suite 400
Los Angeles, CA 90034
(310) 391-2245