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We Don't Give No Education
More evidence that American public education is virtually worthless:
Several weeks into his first year of teaching math at the High School of Arts and Technology in Manhattan, Austin Lampros received a copy of the school’s grading policy. He took particular note of the stipulation that a student who attended class even once during a semester, who did absolutely nothing else, was to be given 45 points on the 100-point scale, just 20 short of a passing mark.
Mr. Lampros’s introduction to the high school’s academic standards proved a fitting preamble to a disastrous year. It reached its low point in late June, when Arts and Technology’s principal, Anne Geiger, overruled Mr. Lampros and passed a senior whom he had failed in a required math course.
The diploma the student, Indira Fernandez, received does not so much as meet the requirements of a 'participation' award:
After having failed to graduate with her class in June 2006, Miss Fernandez, who, through her mother, declined to be interviewed, returned to Arts and Technology last September for a fifth year. She was enrolled in Mr. Lampros’s class in intermediate algebra. Absent for more than two-thirds of the days, she failed, and that grade was left intact by administrators.
When second semester began, Miss Fernandez again took the intermediate algebra class, which fulfilled one of her graduation requirements. According to Mr. Lampros’s records, she missed one-third of the classes, arrived late for 20 sessions, turned in half the required homework assignments, failed 11 of 14 tests and quizzes, and never took the final exam.
Miss Fernandez was allowed to take the final exam and scored a 66, which did not bring her semester average even close to passing. Yet, Principal Geiger inserted a passing mark — over teachers' unions' objections! — anyway.
It is one thing, however ridiculous and self-defeating, to water down curricula to the lowest common denominator to increase graduation rates. It is even more preposterous to throw the most basic requirements out the window for the same purpose.
This isn't education — this is adolescent day care.
Update: Thanks to RiShawn Biddle from the Indianapolis Star for this information from my home state and its abuse of its graduation requirements. My high school's scores here.
|8.1.07 @ 12:22PM|#
This isn't education - this is adolescent day
care.
Wrong!
Absent for more than two-thirds of the days
This isn't even day care. Gun run schools (hi Brian:) are just pure
corruption for top to bottom. A method of looting the public vault,
and keeping the disenfranchised ignorant and compliant.
|8.1.07 @ 12:24PM|#
My current thinking on this is that I don't care. You simply
can't teach a child who is unwilling, for whatever reason, to learn
and has no interest in school. Let there be sufficient resources
for the kids who want to learn, let there be encouragement to learn
the basics across the board, but at the end of the day I don't
really care if someone gets a passing grade when they shouldn't
have.
I also suspect it is a waste of money to try to heroically save a
kid from themselves and/or disinterested parents. The success rate
has to be miniscule.
Jennifer|8.1.07 @ 12:25PM|#
at the end of the day I don't really care if someone gets a
passing grade when they shouldn't have.
I do. It cheapens the achievements of those who actually
earned their grades.
|8.1.07 @ 12:27PM|#
Adolescent Day Care? Sums up my experience in public school
perfectly. The teachers spend at least 70% of their time doing
babysitting chores.
In 8th grade there was this one kid who would always refuse to take
his hate off during the Pledge of Allegiance. Every, single,
morning at least 15 minutes of class time would be wasted by the
teacher trying to convince him to take off his hat.
|8.1.07 @ 12:27PM|#
Yes, but Jennifer, the people that earned their grades will be rewarded when those that don't serve them McDonalds.
|8.1.07 @ 12:28PM|#
Man, my sentence is a grammatical nightmare. Apologies! And from an English Major. Damn public schools.
|8.1.07 @ 12:31PM|#
JasonL
What about the kids who do want to learn? This system of
bureaucratic EINO (education in name only) not only robs the
tax-payers of their hard earned, it also robs many of any hope of a
future.
Sure there are a few with the drive, ability, and determination to
claw their way out of the ghetto. But the public school system must
be recognized as a significant obstacle in that effort, and is
responsible for holding thousands (hundreds of thousands?) in
poverty.
|8.1.07 @ 12:33PM|#
...there was this one kid who would always refuse to take
his hate off during the Pledge of
Allegiance...
I don't normally point out typos, but this is just too funny.
|8.1.07 @ 12:33PM|#
there was this one kid who would always refuse to take his
hate off during the Pledge of Allegiance.
Yeah I know, and scools are supposed to be preaching tolerance, if
nothing else.
|8.1.07 @ 12:35PM|#
Miss Fernandez was allowed to take the final exam and scored
a 66, which did not bring her semester average even close to
passing. Yet, Principal Geiger inserted a passing mark - over
teachers' unions' objections! - anyway.
Wait what?
i thought the problems with public schools mainly stemmed from
those wretched teachers unions and their protection of incompetent
teachers and such?
|8.1.07 @ 12:40PM|#
This isn't education - this is adolescent day
care.
It seems to me that in this case, it wasn't day care at all, and in
fact the school passed her because they didn't want to be a day
care center for someone who obviously didn't want to be
there.
And in fact, I dunno how much I can get bothered by someone passing
even though they didn't deserve it.
Illinois is trying to pass a law that removes driving privelages
from kids who drop out. So this puts them in a situation where they
don't wnt to be there, but the state is compelling them to
stay.
I would imagine passing them and getting them out of the school
system that way is better than keeping them there longer than they
want/need to be.
|8.1.07 @ 12:45PM|#
I guess Principal Geiger wasn't a very good 'counter' and decided to let Miss Fernandez calculate her own grade.
|8.1.07 @ 12:48PM|#
JasonL,
I agree that I personally don't care if a lazy/uninterested kid
learns or not, but it is important that diplomas have meaning.
Higher education institutions and employers use the information
provided by diplomas to run more efficiently; if diplomas lose
their ability to transmit information the resulting inefficiencies
will hurt all of society. And if that sounds cold and technocratic
to you, you can also look at it from an individual justice point of
view; if diplomas are misleading or valueless, people who worked
hard in school will be denied opportunities they deserve, and
people who didn't work hard in school will suffer the humiliation
of being given responsibilities they are not equipped to
handle.
|8.1.07 @ 12:48PM|#
"I know this isn't the point, but wtf does this girl need to
know algebra for?"
She might want to buy a train ticket some day.
[Two trains leave different stations. One is travelling East at
three mph; the other is travelling North at five and
two-seventeenths mph. If you want to meet your sister in Wichita,
what time should you leave?]
|8.1.07 @ 12:51PM|#
The union wants the head count, Tom.
Right, cuz that one pupil makes all the difference in the
world.
So let me get this straight -- the union want to fail them so they
can keep the head count high, but at the same time they dont want
to fail too many kids because they need to protect the incompetent
teachers.
Is that about right?
|8.1.07 @ 12:53PM|#
Yes, but Jennifer, the people that earned their grades will
be rewarded when those that don't serve them McDonalds.
Eating anything from McDonalds can hardly be considered a
reward.
Fluffy|8.1.07 @ 12:55PM|#
Cesar -
They should have let the kid keep his hat on, then. Problem solved.
Class time restored.
If they had failed her and she came back for another year, wouldn't
that just cost the taxpayers more money anyway?
|8.1.07 @ 12:56PM|#
I know this isn't the point, but wtf does this girl need to
know algebra for?
[soapbox]
R a t i o n a l thinking. Algebra is the most ELEMENTARY AND BASIC
building block of logical thinking. Algebra is to rational thought
what complete sentences and paragraph structure are to
communication. If you can't solve a second order polynomial, you
just can't think logically.
[/soapbox]
|8.1.07 @ 1:03PM|#
I should clarify a bit.
It isn't that I don't care, as in I don't care what happens to this
girl. It's more that I don't think her problems have anything to do
with the educational system.
Concerning the pass fail as a measure of educational achievement
passed to the university system, I doubt it is all that useful a
measure even if it were rigorously enforced. "A" vs. "C" tells you
something, but Pass vs. Fail is just a way of certifying that the
public education system tried something. Plausible deniability
about the right of a public education, and all that.
Garth|8.1.07 @ 1:03PM|#
I have never understood why schools don't simply have adult
(18+) students leave at the end of whatever final grade they were
attending and give them nothing. No diploma, no pass, nothing and
say "good luck with that" as they leave the grounds.
When the fool finds out that life without that degree sux then
he/she can go for a GED or attend some private institution that
actually gives out worthwhile high school level degrees.
|8.1.07 @ 1:03PM|#
Technical Academies run by private firms would divert alot of
the "don't give a shit 'bout no stinkin' algebra" kids into fields
where they can use skills that they care about developing.
Given the opportunity, I would predict that companies would
appreciate an opportunity to provide technical or creative skills
to eager (read: kids who hate the 3Rs) students. It would save them
time and energy now wasted on college grads who can't drive a
pencil up their own ass but can recite meaningless rules and
memorized formulas.
Of course, Chicago Tom, the unions wouldn't hear of it.
Save the children!
|8.1.07 @ 1:04PM|#
Algebra is to rational thought what complete sentences and
paragraph structure are to communication.
Couldn't disagree more with you.
|8.1.07 @ 1:13PM|#
ChicagoTom:
I don't think that serious critics of the public school system
believe that teachers unions want everyone to be stupid. They
certainly want to retain the ability to control their teachers' own
classrooms. This is a bureaucrat overriding a teacher. Turn this
around and say the principal wanted to ensure the teacher union
position in this case. Say she triedto impose an external audit of
student grades to ensure this person were not unfairly passed and
see what the union would do.
What they don't want is any whiff of accountability.
|8.1.07 @ 1:18PM|#
"Algebra is to rational thought what complete sentences and
paragraph structure are to communication."
I tried to factor out the implications of this sentence, but I
think I was FOILed.
|8.1.07 @ 1:18PM|#
While I respectfully disagree that this anecdote points towards
the conclusion that public education is virtually worthless, it
does illustrate the disadvantage public schools have versus private
ones - they have to be, for the most part, all inclusive.
This is not to say that giving a failing student a passing grade is
the proper way to deal with a student who has failed the class
twice. But there probably is no good way to handle such
situations.
|8.1.07 @ 1:19PM|#
Shocked, shocked I am at the deafening silence at the prospect that a private school for rich kids could just as easily be and often is as much or more of a 'pass factory', since, after all, their incentive is to do whatever the bill-payers want.
|8.1.07 @ 1:19PM|#
Warren -
Even if I were to accept your premise that Algebra is the most
basic building block of logical thinking, I still fail to see where
this girl needs to learn Algebra. Most people forget about it in a
couple of years anyway (yes, even college grads), and it's not like
you're going to make a logical thinking our of an irrational 18
year old by submitting her to Algebra class.
|8.1.07 @ 1:19PM|#
Technical Academies run by private firms would divert alot
of the "don't give a shit 'bout no stinkin' algebra" kids into
fields where they can use skills that they care about
developing.
Or, they would just pass them anyway, to avoid losing a paying
customer. Of course, the student who didn't care enough to show up
at all probably would not have signed up to be a paying customer to
begin with.
|8.1.07 @ 1:21PM|#
Shocked, shocked I am at the deafening silence at the
prospect that a private school for rich kids could just as easily
be and often is as much or more of a 'pass factory', since, after
all, their incentive is to do whatever the bill-payers
want.
Hey! Leave Yale University out of this!
|8.1.07 @ 1:21PM|#
...to make a logical thinking our of an...
Make that "...to make a logical thinker out of an..."
|8.1.07 @ 1:23PM|#
Warren -
Even if I were to accept your premise that Algebra is the most
basic building block of logical thinking, I still fail to see where
this girl needs to learn Algebra. Most people forget about it in a
couple of years anyway (yes, even college grads), and it's not like
you're going to make a logical thinking our of an irrational 18
year old by submitting her to Algebra class.
Well, I suppose if you're going to assume that education can't help
a person, then you're right that there's no point in educating
them.
|8.1.07 @ 1:23PM|#
"This is not to say that giving a failing student a passing
grade is the proper way to deal with a student who has failed the
class twice. But there probably is no good way to handle such
situations"
I actually agree with this. You can't and shouldn't judge any
educational system based on the performance of the worst students.
It is unfair for private system advocates to hold those levels of
performance against public schools, except to the extent that it is
a monopoly and therefore you can't innovate to try to help these
kids much.
That said, public school advocates can't trumpet the universality
of public schooling for the same reasons. Just sticking a kid in a
classroom demonstrates nothing.
|8.1.07 @ 1:24PM|#
I tried to factor out the implications of this sentence, but
I think I was FOILed.
:) Thanks
|8.1.07 @ 1:28PM|#
Well, I suppose if you're going to assume that education
can't help a person, then you're right that there's no point in
educating them.
I don't know if that was pointed or not. Let's say I assume by that
statement you think making this girl, who doesn't show up to 1/2 of
her classes, take and pass an (probably already very watered down)
algebra course is in some way going to "help" her by "educating"
her. In response, I laugh at you.
|8.1.07 @ 1:29PM|#
Wow! I went to the link Jonathan povided to check on my old highschool. In 8 years, the number of grads has been cut by half, 61 when I graduated in '98 to 33 in '06.
|8.1.07 @ 1:31PM|#
Warren,
"R a t i o n a l thinking. Algebra is the most..."
Bless you, bless you! (and I am an agnostic)
You wrote so much in two sentences. It amazes me how many people do
not understand that. My 1st grade teacher girlfriend was moaning on
about how her daughters were not doing well in high school math,
how she did not do well in math and why the hell did most people
need to know geometry and algebra for anyway. I was not as elegant
as you were, but explained that understanding math helped to
develop the ability to solve problems, any sort of problems, in an
ordered, logical manner.
The upside is: she got it. Now, though she is only teaching 1st
graders, she places a heavier emphasis on math in general and word
problems in particular.
I have an unsubstantiated pet theory. The theory is: The root of
the problem for most people that claim to be "bad at math" is that
they did not* learn their multiplication tables by heart when they
were in 3rd grade. Therefore, when more advanced math is presented
to them they are awestruck and overwhelmed when they see an
unsolved algebra problem. It is absolutely essential for daily
adult life that every student learn the multiplications tables out
to 12x12. THANK YOU DAD!
*I wrote "did not", but as a father of two boys, I really meant
were not forced to learn their multiplication tables. Few 3rd
graders are going to learn the tables on their own accord.
|8.1.07 @ 1:34PM|#
Algebra is to rational thought what complete sentences and
paragraph structure are to communication.
Almost the same rationale was invoked to justify the study of
Latin: "it teaches logical thought and good style". Fact is: Latin
was thought in order to enable the student to read the ancient
authors who were regarded as models of logical thought and good
style.
Algebra provides means to write "complete sentences" and "well
structured paragraphs" ... if you are involved in engineering. Kids
should learn some algebra, since there is no way, as of now, to
determine what are their aptitudes and what will they need later.
Still, that girl was definitely lost for engineering, navigation,
astronomy etc., so letting her go was not a mistake. The mistake
was to force her take the algebra class instead of a ... creative
writing class, for example.
|8.1.07 @ 1:40PM|#
I don't know if that was pointed or not. Let's say I assume
by that statement you think making this girl, who doesn't show up
to 1/2 of her classes, take and pass an (probably already very
watered down) algebra course is in some way going to "help" her by
"educating" her. In response, I laugh at you.
I'd say that all else being equal, somebody who takes and passes
even a very basic algebra class will be at least a tiny bit better
off than someone who does not.
|8.1.07 @ 1:41PM|#
The upside is: she got it. Now, though she is only teaching
1st graders, she places a heavier emphasis on math in general and
word problems in particular.
MayorOmalleySuxs,
OMNEG! How long did it take? Can you remember what you said?
Please, I need to know! I've yet to convince any school teacher.
Please help! IT'S FOR THE CHILDREN ;)
|8.1.07 @ 1:43PM|#
I'd say that all else being equal, somebody who takes and
passes even a very basic algebra class will be at least a tiny bit
better off than someone who does not.
Under most circumstances, I would agree with this statement.
However, I can't be available to evaluate this statement as it
applies to each individual person. In this case though (does not
fall under "where all else is equal") the girl "took" the class
twice and failed it.
|8.1.07 @ 1:46PM|#
"...that girl was definitely lost for engineering, navigation,
astronomy..."
Most definately, but the article gave no indication at all if her
ability to learn algerbra or not was the problem. The young ladies
problem was not coming to school. It is very hard to learn the
subject taught in the class if the student doesn't attend the class
- aptitude or no aptitude. I write that as someone with a 12th
grade GPA of 1.7. I had the ability and aptitude, I just cut school
and did other things a lot. What can I say; it was the 70s.
|8.1.07 @ 1:52PM|#
MayorOmalleySuxs,
On a less harmonious note. I can not agree with the specifics of
your theory. I do agree that once a child gets behind in his
mathematical understanding, there is a "snowball of ignorance"
effect. (I think part of the problem is the way math is taught.
Grade school teachers that never went beyond high school algebra
use rote methods and gimmicks to get their kids past that years
material. This faulty understanding of what they "learned" will
later have to be unlearned when they need to apply the concepts to
more advanced topics)
However, we have calculators now and I don't see any reason to make
kids memorize multiplication tables. Teach them to use a calculator
in first grade and you can be teaching them Trig by fourth. (My
father disagrees saying, everyone should be able to basic mental
arithmetic. He makes a good point, but I counter, 'everyone could
be doing mental calculus')
|8.1.07 @ 2:02PM|#
Actually, this case demonstrates the need for school choice.
Every classroom teacher should have the right to choose NOT to
allow unwilling students with non-functioning parents in their
classroom. Excluded students would be free to choose some
alternative public or private school to continue their education
and I would have no problem with the state funding following them.
I do not see, however, many private schools clamoring to attempt to
teach students such as Ms. Fernandez.
Contrary to the general notion expressed by many foes of public
education, most teachers that I know have no problem with
accountability so long as it takes all sides into account. One can
only take the students that come into their classroom, challenge
them to learn the required skills and knowledge, and utilize a
variety of methods to promote that learning. If students and
parents are unable or unwilling to do their part, their is little
chance that learning will occur.
Rhywun|8.1.07 @ 2:03PM|#
I haven't RTFA yet but it should be noted that Bloomberg
(supposedly) got rid of social promotion. That principal should
lose her job. That said, with the h u g e variety of schools in
NYC, did no one think of finding that student a school more
suitable for her?
I agree with whoever stated that we are failing our kids "at the
bottom". One-size-fits-all academic requirements have been a
disaster for those kids.
|8.1.07 @ 2:06PM|#
Warren,
What do you think of my pet theory?
I may be a victim of post hoc ergo propter hoc reasoning, but I
don't think so.
Knowing ones multiplication tables by rote allows a confidence in
math and allows one to view the central question of even simple
algebra problems without being distracted by the multiplication or
division. To use the aforementioned creative writing class as an
example, expecting a student to learn algebra without out a rote
ability to do multiplication is like asking a student to take a
creative writing class without that student having a rote knowledge
of nouns, verbs, adjectives and adverbs.
|8.1.07 @ 2:10PM|#
VM,
Well, besides expressing my initial disagreement in an incomplete
sentence, I think that saying
If you can't solve a second order polynomial, you just can't
think logically.
is a lot like saying, "If you don't believe in God, you can't be
moral." It's a somewhat elitist attitude.
The fact is, there are a lot of perfectly rational people in
decision-making positions with many responsibilities, who don't
know what a second order polynomial is and who have no interest in
knowing what it is.
|8.1.07 @ 2:14PM|#
Whoops, I guess you already answered.
"However, we have calculators now and I don't see any reason to
make kids memorize multiplication tables."
Would you agree that becuase there are computer with word
processing programs, spell checkers and grammer checkers that a
student need not learn how to spell or grammer rules?
Learning the multiplication tables out to 12x12 is a 10 minute a
day 12 week effort.
"Grade school teachers that never went beyond high school
algebra..."
Why do you think they chose elem. ed?
|8.1.07 @ 2:30PM|#
"…is a lot like saying, "If you don't believe in God, you can't
be moral." It's a somewhat elitist attitude."
What the hell were you, an English Lit major? The polynomial remark
was a joke; a geek joke, but still a joke.
|8.1.07 @ 2:35PM|#
The mayor hater is dead on. Buliding a foundation by rote is the best preparation for more difficult problems. Not to mention knowing my tables saves me mucho time otherwise spent trying to find my calculator.
|8.1.07 @ 2:46PM|#
The polynomial remark was a joke; a geek joke, but still a
joke.
Ah, well, it followed this statement:
Algebra is to rational thought what complete sentences and
paragraph structure are to communication.
So I couldn't really tell.
|8.1.07 @ 2:48PM|#
While we're rethinking how to better teach children math at an early age, can we also pump up the emphasis on homophones?
|8.1.07 @ 2:49PM|#
"expand pls."
I was making a joke. A geek engineer joke, but still a joke.
"Buliding a foundation by rote is the best preparation for more
difficult problems."
That is how we learn to write. We learn how to spell words by rote,
then use that skill to build those words into sentences.
|8.1.07 @ 2:50PM|#
"So I couldn't really tell."
That is becuase you are a normal person and not an engineer.
|8.1.07 @ 2:52PM|#
That is becuase you are a normal person and not an
engineer.
Oh, sure, rub it in, why don't ya?
edna|8.1.07 @ 2:54PM|#
However, we have calculators now and I don't see any reason
to make kids memorize multiplication tables.
i do, but i have the disadvantage of having spent ten years trying
to teach match, chemistry, and physics. calculator-oriented kids
were universally terrible at order-of-magnitude thinking (really,
the most important way to look at problems), couldn't do
dimensional analysis, and had no comprehension of the use of
significant figures. using the calculator as a crutch seems to
disconnect the mind from what the numbers in front of you actually
mean.
my favorite experience was a test i gave some freshmen chem
students. "estimate the number of hydrogen atoms in a glass of
water." i got answers like "3.67314507 exp-19."
T|8.1.07 @ 2:58PM|#
emilper,
Kids should learn some algebra, since there is no way, as of
now, to function effectively in a modern technological society
without it.
Try the sentence that way, it's truer.
|8.1.07 @ 3:11PM|#
T:
I wonder what use are integrals for functioning normally in a
technological society if you are not designing the tools used by
the members of said society ...
you know, there is life beyond solving polynomial equations
edna|8.1.07 @ 3:13PM|#
How big was the glass?
that's the point. one of the things a student needs to be able to
do is make order of magnitude guesses. if the student used 250ml or
300ml or something like that, fine, the idea is to get a grasp of
the basic size of the number. i found that a useful way to get an
intuitive feel for avogadro's number, it's about the number of
molecules in condensed phase that you can hold in your hand.
is this all too geeky?
|8.1.07 @ 3:14PM|#
Reinmoose? homophones? Why does everyone need to know
how to call my gay uncle? Is this the sort of logical thinking that
algebra promotes?
Besides, algebra is an Arabic word. Learning math is therefore
un-American.
|8.1.07 @ 3:20PM|#
algebra is an Arabic word. Learning math is therefore
un-American.
So is alcohol. The cause of, and the answer to, all of our
problems.
|8.1.07 @ 3:23PM|#
They should have let the kid keep his hat on, then. Problem
solved. Class time restored.
They wouldn't because then rules would be broken! Then everyone
would break the rules! ANARCHY!
Thats the logic of public school administrators.
|8.1.07 @ 3:37PM|#
As long as we are airing our pet math gripes. There is no way factoring polynomials is more important to everyday thinking than statistics. 85.6% of all claims made by politicians, newspapers, wonks, bloggers and commenters rely on a statistic in some way.
Jennifer|8.1.07 @ 3:40PM|#
Contrary to the general notion expressed by many foes of
public education, most teachers that I know have no problem with
accountability so long as it takes all sides into
account.
Amen. Too many people have the idea that teaching is like
bartending--just pour the knowledge into the kid's head the way you
pour booze into a glass. Nobody seems to suspect that maybe, just
maybe, the student might have something to do with how well she
does or does not learn her lessons.
As annoying as Principal Geiger was, she could be worse--the
principal I used to work for would have not only given the kid a
passing grade, but told Lampros it was his fault the kid
failed in the first place. (True story: there used to be a sign in
the school district's administrative offices that said "There are
no failing students, only failing teachers.")
|8.1.07 @ 3:50PM|#
Skipping on down...
There is no way factoring polynomials is more important to
everyday thinking than statistics.
Agreed. I talk up algebra as 'exercise for the mind'. Something
that makes your mind stronger in the same way exercise makes the
body stronger. But statistics has direct application. Much of the
news we process is dependent on statistics. The general lack of
understanding regarding prob & stat leads to a great deal of
widespread misinformation.
VM|8.1.07 @ 3:59PM|#
"Agreed. I talk up algebra as 'exercise for the mind'. Something
that makes your mind stronger in the same way exercise makes the
body stronger."
agreed. However, I would offer poetry as the same. A good
foundation with words and numbers is important - it would also have
made Milo's understanding of how Dictionopolis and Digitopolis
could have gotten along better!
"The general lack of understanding regarding prob & stat leads
to a great deal of widespread misinformation."
true dat.
|8.1.07 @ 4:00PM|#
Jennifer,
You should have snuck in one night and replaced it with "There are
no failing teachers, only failing administrators."
Jennifer|8.1.07 @ 4:11PM|#
You should have snuck in one night and replaced it with
"There are no failing teachers, only failing
administrators."
Nah. I don't go for anonymity. I came right out and asked the
administrators if that rule didn't apply, too.
|8.1.07 @ 4:24PM|#
Life is a word problem.
An individual that doesn't have a fundamental grasp of
probabilites, percentages, rates of change, and factoring is
doomed.
Big Al|8.1.07 @ 4:35PM|#
Sadly, this isn't only a problem with public education. My
private COLLEGE does the exact same thing. It's a complete joke.
The truth is this country has given up on merit and embraces the
view that everyone is entitled to a degree.
So, on this one, I'm not going to public the blame on the public
school system but instead the culture. It's much bigger than a
single government program, it's a pervasive mindset.
|8.1.07 @ 4:43PM|#
Big Al,
In my day they only did that for the athletes. Incidentally, that
wouldn't be a Liberal Arts college by any chance, would it?
|8.1.07 @ 4:52PM|#
"""This is not to say that giving a failing student a passing
grade is the proper way to deal with a student who has failed the
class twice. But there probably is no good way to handle such
situations."""
How about failing the student.
Schools don't fail students, students fail schools. You should get
the grade you deserve. If you can't cut it, get off your ass and
get some assistance. Being lazy about your education is your fault,
not the schools.
|8.1.07 @ 4:53PM|#
Parents have a tendency to blame schools because they don't want to blame their kids.
|8.1.07 @ 5:00PM|#
Let's not forget to blame the parents too. Kids that don't have a hot meal and a quiet room to come home to, are unlikely to achieve academic success.
VM|8.1.07 @ 5:00PM|#
"Incidentally, that wouldn't be a Liberal Arts college by any
chance, would it?"
man - just cuz you didn't get in at Williams, it was a long time
ago.
Or since this is obviously a peeve of yours, do you actually
understand the NESCAC schools? Oberlin? Carlton College?
Grinnell?
didn't think so.
|8.1.07 @ 5:07PM|#
As I understand it, my BA in CompSci & Physics means I'm a liberal arts major. You gotta problem wid dat?
VM|8.1.07 @ 5:23PM|#
Warren -
instead the question should be: what do you understand about those
schools I mentioned?
Randolph Carter might have had a similar experience, but nearly
every one I went to college with took calc in high school, etc.
Your opinion of (top) liberal arts schools is sadly ignorant.
|8.1.07 @ 5:23PM|#
A long time ago at a second-tier state university during it's
transition to a first-tier school.
No engineering school though, because the other two state
universities had that locked up. Politics was not going to allow a
third engineering school in the state.
|8.1.07 @ 5:25PM|#
By the way, I was recruited by one of those top-tier liberal arts schools that VM talks about, but I got distracted by marriage.
|8.1.07 @ 7:17PM|#
Maybe she can get into Occidental College here in L.A. Her Hispanic name indicates she could take "Whiteness" one of the course offerings, and maybe get an "A". Regular attendance, passing grades, doing homework, etc. are false white values that we are trying to impose on these people. Shame on us.
|8.1.07 @ 7:36PM|#
warren:
I graduated from a liberal arts school. I'm comfortable saying that
the education I received is better than that provided in a very
high percent of larger universities. I think you don't know exactly
whereof you speak here.
Other Matt|8.1.07 @ 8:56PM|#
Parents have a tendency to blame schools because they don't
want to blame their kids.
Or themselves, more like.
James Quentin Clark|8.1.07 @ 11:24PM|#
To compare public schools to adolescent daycare is an insult to
childcare providers all over the world. Babysitters and daycare
workers don't force children into their custody and send the police
after them for not coming. They also don't generally poison the
minds of the children they care for, nor do they have the authority
to control their futures or certify, number, and rank them in a
variety of ways.
Public schools are worse than daycare. They're worse than prisons,
worse than most of the conventional negative comparisons. They are
a blight upon our society, an obstacle to genuine education and
free inquiry, an insult to the founders' vision of individual
rights, and absolutely anathema to the most basic of human
liberties; the right to determine how we use our minds.
|8.2.07 @ 2:40AM|#
"I talk up algebra as 'exercise for the mind'."
I love math. Algebra has always struck me as more like book keeping
though. It is certainly a valuable skill, mathematically speaking,
but it is not really very intellectual. Geometry though... now
there is exercise for the mind.
Russ 2000|8.2.07 @ 10:15AM|#
This isn't education - this is adolescent day
care.
Now you know why employers want college degrees and transcripts -
high school credentials can't be trusted.
Mike Laursen|8.2.07 @ 10:58AM|#
I'm completely down with the idea of getting the government out of the education business, but it's a vast overstatement to say that "American public education is virtually worthless." The American public education system is mind-bogglingly huge and cannot be summed up so summarily. It has provided a range of quality and personal experiences from godawful to excellent.
|8.2.07 @ 5:24PM|#
""""Parents have a tendency to blame schools because they don't
want to blame their kids.
Or themselves, more like.""""
Well, the parents may have some responsiblity, but at some point
you are the decider about your study habits, or lack thereof.
Some one correct me if I'm wrong but Computer sciences and physics
are science majors. No?
Mike Laursen|8.2.07 @ 5:32PM|#
I'm a Computer Science major. It's not really a science. It's more like Computational Mathematics.
Clemsonuee|8.2.07 @ 10:04PM|#
Speaking as a practicing engineer.
FUCK memorizing multiplication tables. Those things drove me nuts;
it's only because my dad is an engineer and knows math and taught
me not rote memorization is the reason I liked math outta
elementary school.
Now the funny thing is that as time went on and I studied a lot of
math through school I ended up pretty much being able to do all
that basic math in my head.
What I always remember about using calculators in math classes was
during tests I'd get so wrapped up in the problem punching numbers
in that I wouldn't be thinking about the numbers and often punch in
2+2 or something else simple like that.
But enough engineer reminiscing.
Next thing you know I'll be telling engineer jokes like
Two engineering students are walking to class one day. The first
one turns to the second and says "Hey where'd you get that bike
from? You didn't have it yesterday."
The second one replies "Funny story. I was walking back from class
yesterday and this beautiful blond rides this bike up to me. She
throws it to the ground beside me. She then takes off all her
clothes and throws them down beside the bike and tells me to take
what I want."
The first student nods approvingly and says "Good choice, those
clothes never would have fit you."
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