Radley Balko | July 30, 2007
Singletary, you'll remember, is the elderly man in Florida who, upon seeing drug dealers on his lawn, came out of his home with a gun to scare them off.
Unfortunately, they weren't drug dealers, but undercover cops posing as drug dealers. Upon seeing Singletary with his gun, they shot him dead. Even the police and town officials concede that Singletary was involved in no criminal activity, and was merely attempting to protect his property from what he thought were criminals.
As noted before, Singletary's death is drug war collateral damage. His death is the entirely predictable consequence of having crimes on the books that the police have to break in order to enforce, and of ratcheting up the stakes for those crimes by declaring a "war" on them. It now looks like the cops who killed Singletary won't face criminal charges. I'm a bit conflicted on this one. But if there are no criminal charges, there should at least be some disciplinary action, at least if that "new professionalism" Justice Scalia was telling us about means anything at all.
The disturbing parts of this case:
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The NRA almost always sides with cops, unless they're ATF
ninjas.
I found this comment from the earlier thread interesting, in light
of the helicopter crash incident that Radley's been writing
about:
Aresen | January 30, 2007, 6:28pm | #
Radley
Not to disagree, but I think "collateral damage" is far too
generous a term for what happened here.
A closer analogy would be the death of a bank teller during a
robbery - which counts as first-degree murder in most
jurisdictions.
Warty,
A better analogy would be someone run over by a news crew's van on
its way to cover a bank robbery.... the robber does not get a "hit
and run" citation in addition to his bank heist.
Sheesh
I don't understand the conflict part. The people who shot him are not accountable for their illegal actions?
NRA = A bunch of brainless, no principled, chest-thumping
cowards.
They can rot in Hades.
There should be a rule that says if you kill an innocent person, your police career is over for good.
If only some "progressive" would come and help us understand that Mr Singletary was at fault, here; if loony Republican panderers had only allowed the government to take the poor deluded man's gun away from him, this never would have happened.
So, a guy brandishes a gun to "defend his property" and it turns
out badly? Hmmm...
So of course the NRA doesn't want to have anything to do with this,
it's a classic example of why people shouldn't defend their
property with firearms.
What charges would Mr. Singletary be facing if he'd killed both of the undercover cops? Or would he not face criminal charges?
MyTube,
yeah, classic example. If you defend your property, you might get
shot by the cops.
Sort of like how drugs can ruin your life; you might get thrown in jail if you use them.
The NRA almost always sides with cops, unless they're ATF
ninjas.
This is mostly true. The NRA had a very good relationship with the
police for a long time (which was good for gun rights in general),
but the "cop-killer teflon bullets" debacle in the 80's put a wedge
in between them that the NRA would like to forget about.
The NRA does some important work. They are sure as fuck not
perfect.
Remember that working stiff who got whacked when he pulled a gun
on Vitti's crew when he saw them sneaking through his
property?
Today the consigliere decided that nothing's going to be done to
the wiseguys who killed him. That it was just one of those things.
That people should just forget about it.
The fact that people are suprised is comical.
"So of course the NRA doesn't want to have anything to do with
this, it's a classic example of why people shouldn't defend their
property with firearms."
So, how should one defend one's property?
Hmm, over on the crashing 'copters thread they mention a case of
a robber being charged with murder because the clerk killed the
robber's accomplice. The logic being the clerk wouldn't have pulled
the gun if they hadn't been robbing the store.
Obviously, Mr. Singletary wouldn't have pulled his gun if the cops
hadn't been trespassing while pretending to be drug
pushers...
So, which is it, young feller?
Anyone with sense knows that the cops will fire first, and will
shoot to kill. Notice that no attempt from our best trained weapons
specialists was made to simply disable the poor man ... they had to
kill. I would wager that at least 80 percent of all officers in
this country have a sick kind of bloodlust that motivates them to
kill anything or anyone they can, if given a situation where they
could disavow culpability. These are a generation of testosterone
fueled violence junkies that simply cannot wait to kill ... and
they have ALL the power. Should anyone be surprised when this
happens?
I am sorry to say that this will never change unless citizens do
more than simply arm themselves ... THEY need to shoot to kill.
"Notice that no attempt from our best trained weapons
specialists was made to simply disable the poor man ... they had to
kill."
I am not defending the cops here, but nobody is trained to "shoot
to disable". The standard training is the "double tap"; two rounds
to the center of mass, and that is all she wrote. If you shoot, you
are taking a lethal action.
Wayne ... thank you for that clarification. I must have been mistaken, but I sincerely thought that they were/are trained to injure while minimizing the chances of death. In any case, the bigger mistake here was that they failed to mention that they were police officers. That these vile creatures will be able to walk away and perpetrate their deeds upon other unwitting innocents makes them worse than the vast majority of criminals in this country. Perhaps we should inundate the local police station with protests, for what it's worth ...
These stories just wear me out. Police policy needs to change. Police should not break the law to catch a crook. Police should think through their actions and anticipate that they are likely to be confronted by a frightened homeowner if they illegally trespass; and they are likely to be in a situation where somebody is going to die as a consequence.
I sincerely thought that they were/are trained to injure
while minimizing the chances of death.
No, no, no. If you're shooting at somebody, you had better be
trying to kill them. Otherwise, you use a taser or a beanbag or
noogies or strong language. Shooting somebody is a poor way to not
kill them.
I really don't see a conflict here.
Armed thugs trespassing on his property, he came out to chase them
off, they shot him dead.
Murder plain and simple.
So what if they were undercover cops? The didn't announce it,
didn't have a warrant, etc. So that should be irrelevant.
Just cause your a cop you shouldn't be able to break the law,
murder innocent civilians and just say, "It's okay. I'm a cop." and
walk away from it.
Isn't there some need to consider proportionality when acting in
defense?
If the trespassers were climbing in his window, then use of or
brandishing a gun is perfectly appropriate. But if they were merely
standing on his lawn, then calling the cops or calling out for them
to "move on" is a better first step. When the kids kick their
soccer ball on your lawn, does a good libertarian ask them to play
elsewhere (and play a real sport, like baseball) or
does he fire a shotgun in their direction?
You know the answer and so should anyone who exercises his right to
keep and bear arms.
"Just cause your a cop you shouldn't be able to break the law,
murder innocent civilians and just say, "It's okay. I'm a cop." and
walk away from it."
Yeah, I agree.
"Isn't there some need to consider proportionality when acting
in defense?
If the trespassers were climbing in his window, then use of or
brandishing a gun is perfectly appropriate. But if they were merely
standing on his lawn, then calling the cops or calling out for them
to "move on" is a better first step. When the kids kick their
soccer ball on your lawn, does a good libertarian ask them to play
elsewhere (and play a real sport, like baseball) or
does he fire a shotgun in their direction?
You know the answer and so should anyone who exercises his right to
keep and bear arms."
You are right, of course, although I don't know the details of this
case. The devil is in the details, as always.
True enough, but if he was working under the assumption that the
trespassers were drug dealers, then it seems like it would be a bad
idea to approach them unarmed.
Do we know if Singletary had attempted to contact the police before
approaching these cops?
"When the kids kick their soccer ball on your lawn, does a good
libertarian ask them to play elsewhere (and play a real sport, like
baseball) or
does he fire a shotgun in their direction?"
If those cops had actually been playing soccer on his lawn, that
analogy might make sense.
If you are going to criticize the state's attorney who investigated the incident for doing a poor job, then you should include his name, so he is properly embarassed.
The state's attorney investigation found the police actions
justified because Singletary "was an armed civilian who refused
orders to drop his gun." But the same report criticized the police
for not announcing themselves as police before they fired on
Singletary.
Ironically enough, if the trespassers had not been police,
Singletary would probably still be alive. It is most likely that
actual criminals would have acquiesced to the owner's request to
get off the property.
It is sad that the same agreeable social behavior didn't occur to
the undercover cops. But then they know they're not going to be
punished regardless...
So, a guy brandishes a gun to "defend his property" and it
turns out badly? Hmmm...
So of course the NRA doesn't want to have anything to do with this,
it's a classic example of why people shouldn't defend their
property with firearms.
That is a "good" point, MyTube. Very "perceptive" and "well thought
out."
Are police in Florida immune from Wrongful Death suits? At the minimum you'd think Jacksonville would be liable for that.
wayne | July 30, 2007, 12:22pm | #
"So of course the NRA doesn't want to have anything to do with
this, it's a classic example of why people shouldn't defend their
property with firearms."
So, how should one defend one's property?
Clearly, he should have called the police. That would've shown
those drug pushers on his lawn! It worked for David Ruttenberg,
didn't it?
Ironically enough, if the trespassers had not been police,
Singletary would probably still be alive. It is most likely that
actual criminals would have acquiesced to the owner's request to
get off the property.
It is sad that the same agreeable social behavior didn't occur to
the undercover cops. But then they know they're not going to be
punished regardless...
That would require the police to have an attitude other than total
fucking domination, which goes against years of training and
indoctrination. Even under cover, if anybody questions your
authority, shoot/tazer/nightstick first, seek to understand
later.
Cases like this one make it extremely hard to lament the killing
of a policeman.
They obviously don't care about killing us.
I seriously doubt he'd of come out armed for kids playing
soccer, apples and oranges.
We're talking grown adults specifically clothed to look like drug
dealers and acting the part.
Isn't there some need to consider proportionality when acting in defense?
If the trespassers were climbing in his window, then use of or brandishing a gun is perfectly appropriate. But if they were merely standing on his lawn, then calling the cops or calling out for them to "move on" is a better first step.
I don't know about that city, but in Detroit cops don't bother
showing up for lots of crimes. If you find your car is broken into,
or your home has been robbed, it is up to you to go to the police
station and file a report to get the paper work for your insurance
company - the cops just can't be bothered to actually come by and
check it out. It is unlikely the police would bother to respond to
such a call, and if they did it would be several hours before they
would be there.
In a lot of cases, the cops are extremly angry and intimidating to
the people who actually call the police.
In this case, telling the drug dealer to beat it himself was
probably his only option if he didn't want them dealing drugs in
his yard.
I seriously doubt he'd of come out armed for kids playing
soccer
On the other hand, whenever I see kids in front of my place
skateboarding or swooping around in their "heelies," I affix a
sniper's scope sight to Ol' Betsy.
That is a "good" point, MyTube. Very "perceptive" and "well
thought out."
Thanks. Gotta love guns!
You're "welcome." I "look forward" to reading more of your "thoughts" about guns in the future.
Am I cynical for wondering what the official story would have been had this guy been a better gunfighter and actually won?
Not to assume motivations here, but Mr. Singletary was, very likely, protecting his property in more than one sense. In Florida, a homeowner who knowingly allows drug deals to occur on his property, whether or not he is dealing or indeed is even complicit in the action, is subject to asset forfeiture. I vaguely remember a case being decided this way under very similar circumstances, except of course the "drug dealers" were not undercover police officers.
If you think a armed guy coming out of his house to address drug dealers is "too much". Remember cops view drug dealers as so dangers they need a SWAT team to enter a drug dealers house. Cops believe drug dealers are armed, why would this guy think any different.
We're talking grown adults specifically clothed to look like
drug dealers and acting the part.
In fact, they probably WERE dealing drugs.
In this case, telling the drug dealer to beat it himself was
probably his only option if he didn't want them dealing drugs in
his yard.
And as the aforementioned David Ruttenberg case illustrates,
failure to prevent drug activity on your premises can land
suspicion on you, and even lead to having your property
seized.
Those of us who are to be 'served and protected' are stuck in a
catch 22 where the police are often causing the problem, and
holding us accountable.
You're "welcome." I "look forward" to reading more of your
"thoughts" about guns in the future.
At least we can both agree that Singletary's strategy of grabbing a
shotgun and charging a bunch of dangerous-looking guys turned out
to be a really great one. I guess the rule is that you should
exercise your second amendment rights on others before they
excercise theirs on you...
Rex- In Chicago it seems the cops are to busy commiting crimes
to have to to respond to them as well.
This is murder plain and simple. This is why no one sheds a tear
about a cop dying in the "line of duty," these days.
This will not end until they are called out to accidently kill the
relatives of those in power who can facilitate the changes we need.
But until it affects them directly its of no matter to them. But
gun down a few of their innocent relative and I bet they see things
differently.
Anon tips to politicians relatives homes, judges familes etc should
do it in no time. I bet it only takes on politicians family member
getting murdered on an anon tip to bring the change we seek. Shame
that so many are worth so little i the eyes of the law, the law
which inflicts more harm than the objects they seek to ban ever
would.
Or possibly, we should demand more from our police officers. But nah, if there are drug dealers on your lawn, just duck and cover. Surely they'll just go away peacefully, right?
"""I guess the rule is that you should exercise your second
amendment rights on others before they excercise theirs on
you..."""
It wasn't his 2nd Amendment right he was exercising. That goes to
ownership not use. He was exercising his right to defend his
property, that's a right that the drug dealers, and cops were not
exercising. I'm not sure if you have a right to self defense if
you're trespassing on someone's property.
Out of curiosity, I wonder what the cops would have said if he took a picture of the drug deal and had it published in the newspaper as the drug dealers on my front lawn. I bet the cops would have a problem with that too.
What we need is a law abiding anti-police organization . . .
with a charter that clearly states that cops will be fired upon if
the innocent armed civilian has reason to feel said copper(s)
represent a clear and present danger. It's time to turn the tables
folks ...
it is the only way to fight back and protect your life, liberty and
property.
The state's attorney investigation found the police actions
justified because Singletary "was an armed civilian who
refused orders to drop his gun." But the same report
criticized the police for not announcing themselves as
police before they fired on Singletary.
Excuse my Anglo-Saxon, but this is freakin' retarded. A person of
no authority that you've never met before is trespassing on your
property, dealing drugs and orders you to drop your weapon. This
gives criminals carte-blanche to commit crimes by ordering their
victims to drop their weapons.
Had the report discovered that the police had announced themselves,
they could at least fall back on that. But to admit that Singletary
had no knowledge as to the status of the people on his property,
and then in the same breath claim that he should have "followed
orders" and dropped his gun...well that just chaps
my ass.
Singletary "was an armed civilian who refused orders to drop his gun."
Hold it!! CIVILIAN! So what branch of the Armed Forces did
his MURDERERS belong to? And under what section of the
UCMJ did they commit this act lawfully?
Oh, wait a minute, they were armed CIVILIANS too. IE city
police officers.
Time was this use of CIVILIANS to refer to "not policemen"
was restricted to bad TV cop shows. Now it's part of the language
of demagogic State Attorneys and Mayors.
Corruption of the language might not be as serious a crime as
Murder, but it certainly seems to help in facilitating it.
Kind of reminds me of that case where the cops murdered a man in
his own home and got away with it because he "took up a defensive
position" (ie jumped behind a couch).
Of course if armed men in black bust your door down guns drawn and
dont bother to announce themselves as cops I guess your supposed to
stand there and wait to die just in case they might be cops and
hiding or defending yourself are not allowed.
I don't know how to break this to you, libertarians, but the reason the NRA is not all over this is that Mr. Singletary was black and the NRA leadership is a bunch of republicans. When an 80 year old white man gets shot while defending his home we will see the outrage all of a sudden.
NRA = Not Really Associated
As a life NRA member I can tell you that the "new NRA" only cares
about fund-raising and exacerbating policy issues, not the cops,
not the gun owners, not NRA members, only the money for NRA
salaries (read exorbitant) hey, it is what it is!
belle waring,
Yeah, just like they fought Mayor Nagin and his goons in court
after they confiscated New Orleans residents' legal firearms after
Katrina hit.
New Orleans is a lily-white place, right?
"Yeah, just like they fought Mayor Nagin and his goons in
court after they confiscated New Orleans residents' legal firearms
after Katrina hit.
New Orleans is a lily-white place, right?"
In the videotape I saw, it was white folks having their guns
confiscated. That would lend even more support for belle waring's
assertion that the NRA is racially motivated.
The NRA to support the rights of all colors of Americans, so it is
of no (major) importance to me if they fail more for one color over
another.
Isn't there some need to consider proportionality when
acting in defense?
Only if you're a pussified apologist grasping for a post hoc
rationalization for murder committed by agents of the state.
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