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Jobs Americans Won't Do
Microsoft is opening up shop in Canada after Congress screwed them over on visa increases:
The new software development center will open somewhere in the Vancouver, British Columbia, area and will be "home to software developers from around the world," Microsoft said in a statement on Thursday....
The announcement of Microsoft's Canadian plans follows the failure of an immigration bill that would have expanded the number of foreign high-tech workers that could have come to the country each year under so-called H1-B visas.
It was a classic, "It's not me, it's you" breakup:
High-tech companies have been pushing hard to get Congress to increase the number of visas they are allotted. In separate Capitol Hill appearances, Microsoft Chairman Bill Gates made a strong plea for unlimited H-1B visas, while a Google executive credited the company's success to foreigners and called for expanded ability to hire them.
But so far, a broader feud has killed two attempts by the U.S. Senate to overhaul the immigration system, including a bump in the H-1B quota from a base level of 60,000 to at least 115,000. Silicon Valley wasn't pleased with all of the bill, but it was also counting on passage of amendments that would provide greater assurances that green cards for permanent residency come through and create new exemptions for foreigners with advanced degrees.
There really are jobs Americans won't do...the ones that go to Canada.
|7.6.07 @ 12:00PM|#
Yet another example of the CanadianGovernment in league with BigSoftware seeking PoliticalPower.
Guy Montag|7.6.07 @ 12:09PM|#
'Open Borders' question.
Maybe one day the visa quotas will be eliminated but it sure does
not look like that day will come by the end of the week. At least,
that is what I support.
From what I hear from the 'open borders' folk there is some
difference between unlimited visas (or the limitation only being
the amount that can be processed) and whatever they are talking
about. Some say 'open borders' does not mean anybody who can get
across the border stays, but that sure is what Nick sounded like he
advocated when he was on TV with that Moyers fellow.
I really do like this idea of shifting operations to where the
talent is located. Just like what some SW USA farmers moving
operations to Mexico. The only peril there, of course, is that the
modern history of Mexico is to nationalize anything that becomes
successful if it is run by foreigners, like their oil
industry.
Perhaps we could use the term 'open borders' for firms moving
operations across international borders? Sounds like it fits there
a little better.
|7.6.07 @ 12:11PM|#
FWIW I'm not "open borders" in the sense of no longer having visas. I just think the number of visas available should be increased to eliminate the black market in illegal labor.
|7.6.07 @ 12:15PM|#
Oh god. I don't think I could live in a world where Canada is a high tech powerhouse.
thoreau|7.6.07 @ 12:15PM|#
Guy Montag-
One could envision a system where the number of visas is not fixed
but the qualifications for receiving one are fixed.
It's like the difference between grading on a curve and giving
students whatever they earn. If you grade on a curve, a certain
proportion of the class has to get each grade. If you give students
what they earn, you're prepared to give everybody an A if they kick
ass, you're prepared to give everybody an F if they suck, and
you're prepared to give out any other distribution of grades if
that's what they earn.
So you could have some qualifications for a visa, and anybody who
meets those qualifications (e.g. anybody who is employable, passes
a background check, doesn't have certain diseases, and pays a fee)
gets in.
Timothy|7.6.07 @ 12:16PM|#
Free trade in capital=free trade in labor.
Cue the wacko in 5...4....3...
Jozef|7.6.07 @ 12:17PM|#
As an H1-B visa holder I must point out that H1-B is not
exclusive to high-tech workers, but to workers with unique
knowledge or work experience, accepting positions that the company
couldn't find and American for. In my case, it was financial
analysis specific to a certain industry and now product management,
again specific to a niche industry I've got experience in. Usually,
companies who hire H1-B workers like me then apply to permanent
work visas, which have the same kind of requirements (no suitable
American workers), but more stringent reporting requirements.
I would be actually much more happy if software engineers were
taken out of the H1-B requirements, as their job can be a performed
pretty much anywhere in the world with an Internet connection, and
the H1-B visas were only issued to people in other industries,
which require face-to-face interaction.
thoreau|7.6.07 @ 12:17PM|#
If it would help get us on the path toward something sensible, I'd even be willing to go so far as to have higher standards for people bringing kids and lower standards for people not bringing kids, on the grounds that kids will go to public school.
|7.6.07 @ 12:18PM|#
I work for Microsoft. This is good news for me, 'cause it means
I'll get to live in Whistler this winter while commuting to the new
Vancouver office.
For companies like Microsoft, the whole visa thing is silly.
Employees can pretty much work wherever they want, that technology
already exists - it's only a question of getting management to
buy-in...
SIV|7.6.07 @ 12:23PM|#
So why do foreign workers even need H1b visas?
Can't they just come in and go to work for whoever they want to at
a mutually agreed upon wage? The State doesn't enforce immigration
and labor laws for "12-20 million" workers.
Wait..... they wouldn't be selectively enforcing
those laws for the benefit of certain classes of people would
they?
Guy Montag|7.6.07 @ 12:30PM|#
thoreau,
That is generally what I am talking about, but would just be
issuing tourist or work visas. Get hired in the USA and you get a
work visa if you pass the background check. Let the employer
determine qualifications.
Just want to visit without working? Tourist visa after a background
check.
I am still at a loss as to that the 'open borders' types are
talking about since their position seems to shift with any question
about what they really mean.
Jozef,
I know a woman from Germany and I think she has an H1B from her
restraunt management and gourmet skills, but she has worked as a
pro-shop manager at a tennis club and an office manager at a
political magazine in the months that I have known her.
That system just seems so open that if they took away the special
lettering I doubt anybody could tell the difference in real-world
application.
For the software folk and any other writer type, management really
should take your advice and not worry about the location of the
typist as long as the product is what they wanted.
|7.6.07 @ 12:32PM|#
This is great. Those donut-scarfing, warm-smoothie slurping
canucks writing software code?
"Internet explorer has encountered an error and needs to close,
eh."
Tim of Angle|7.6.07 @ 12:35PM|#
I guess Microsoft woke up to the fact that shifting operations
to Canada also shifts the responsibility for Microsoft employees'
medical benefits to the backs of the Canadian people.
Bill and Steve are kinda slow sometimes....
|7.6.07 @ 12:36PM|#
I'm glad we are keeping the PhDs out, because those are the sort of people who believe in evolution and sometimes go crazy and start building mail bombs. Also, they have leprosy, I think.
thoreau|7.6.07 @ 12:36PM|#
Guy-
The catch is that you seem to be describing a system where you have
to have a job before you enter, and remaining here is contingent on
your employer's good will. Recruiting overseas might be easy for
large businesses, but a small business in Oregon, looking to hire a
few kitchen staff, won't go abroad to advertise.
And if staying is contingent on remaining with your employer,
employees lose a lot of flexibility. The dynamism of the US
marketplace means there are always some people between jobs, and
this constant shuffling around, as businesses rise and fall and
people test their abilities and try to find their niche, is seen as
a good thing by those of a Shumpeterian bent.
|7.6.07 @ 12:38PM|#
As an H1-B visa holder I must point out that H1-B is not
exclusive to high-tech workers, but to workers with unique
knowledge or work experience, accepting positions that the company
couldn't find and American for.
I hate reading things like this. It's not that you couldn't find an
American for most of the H1-Bs that get brought over -- it's that
the company can cut their costs considerably by bringing in
H1-Bs.
Am I really suppsoed to believe that Microsoft can't find Software
engineers in the USA? That's a load of crap. What they want is the
ability to bring in labor from other countries who are willing to
work for considerably less than what Americans need/want.
I'm not passing any judgement, but the whole "We can't find
Americans with this skill set" is a load of bull.
(Full Disclosure: I work as a software developer and have worked
with a number of H1-B's and in every case it wasn't that the
companies I was working for couldn't find Americans with the skills
they wanted, but that they could hire 3 of them for the price of
one non-H1-B. ALso after working with many, many H1-Bs I have come
to believe that you get what you pay for.)
|7.6.07 @ 12:41PM|#
Employees can pretty much work wherever they want, that technology already exists...
I understand the biggest obstacle to setting up shop in India is
the lack of an adequate and reliable supply of electricity.
ERIC FUCKING DONDEROOOOOOOOOO|7.6.07 @ 12:43PM|#
I'm glad we are keeping the PhDs out, because those are the sort of people who believe in evolution and sometimes go crazy and start building mail bombs. Also, they have leprosy, I think.
Aren't the fucking Brits having fucking trouble with the fucking
islamofacist fucking MDs they've been fucking importing?
The fucking MDs are the fucking worst fucking terrorist fucking
threat, fucking ever.
|7.6.07 @ 12:44PM|#
ChicagoTom,
I have to seriously, seriously disagree with your impressions on
H1-B holders' salaries. In my experience in software, they are not
any lower. They are certainly not 3 times lower.
By the way, they post the salaries of the H1-B holders in a place
they can be seen. Could you cite some numbers backing your
one-third claim?
Jozef|7.6.07 @ 12:49PM|#
I hate reading things like this. It's not that you couldn't
find an American for most of the H1-Bs that get brought over --
it's that the company can cut their costs considerably by bringing
in H1-Bs.
The company that hires H1-Bs must pay the worker the prevailing
wage in the given region and job area, according to wage tables
that are managed by the US government. In both of my H1-B jobs, I
was always getting a higher wage than my peers who were in the same
kind of work, as the wage tables tend to be higher than average
(I'm not entirely sure, but I think they are somewhere around 80th
percentile). If you worked at a company that underpaid its H1-B
workers, that company was breaking he law.
|7.6.07 @ 12:51PM|#
On the one hand, I hate borders, and think we should all be free to move about the planet. On the other hand, my previous employer send my career to Bangalore. I considered going there myself, but found that the Indian goverment conspires to keep the rupee cheap, and the American government conspires to keep the dollar expensive. Thus it is that Indians can afford to work for fewer dollars than I can. And thus it is that American engineers haven't had a raise in years.
|7.6.07 @ 12:54PM|#
By the way, offshoring software development is not a zero-cost
option.
The biggest barrier to offshoring software jobs is requirements
management -- the handling of what the product should do for the
customer, how the product should implement it for the customer, how
the code will be written to get the functionality into the product,
and how the final product will be tested. All of that requires
continuous communication, gobs of documentation, and a substantial
software expertise onshore.
For complicated products, it is definitely more efficient for a
company selling product in the US to have a significant number of
the higher value developers in the US.
|7.6.07 @ 1:02PM|#
I am still at a loss as to that the 'open borders' types are
talking about since their position seems to shift with any question
about what they really mean.
Guy,
What I mean by open borders is that anyone can come and go over the
border as they wish so long as there is no cause to keep them from
doing so -- with the proviso that the causes are limited to those
that are actual threats to the public.
I do believe that checks should be done on entry across the border,
and visas should be issued to those entering and resident in the
US. But the visas should be subject neither to quota nor to
expiration.
|7.6.07 @ 1:04PM|#
Okapi:
I work for Microsoft. This is good news for me, 'cause it means
I'll get to live in Whistler this winter while commuting to the new
Vancouver office.
Lucky you. Not been to Whistler, but Vancouver's a great city.
You'll love it.
Ottawa's a great town, too, but it's no Vancouver. Even if we are
Silicon Valley North.
Ed:
Sure, that's what Microsoft needs: more drunks doing their
coding.
*snicker* My boss tells me her husband works at an IT company in
Ottawa that offers free beer to employees staying after five.
God bless Canada.
|7.6.07 @ 1:12PM|#
All those maple-syrup eating Canucks will give new meaning to
'sticky software.'
;P
|7.6.07 @ 1:14PM|#
I have to seriously, seriously disagree with your
impressions on H1-B holders' salaries. In my experience in
software, they are not any lower. They are certainly not 3 times
lower.
While three times lower is a bit of an exaggeration, in my
experience they have been most definately lower. My old company
would hire developers from Russia, Mexico and India primarily and
ALL of them made lower starting salaries than I did when I started
and on average they made about 2/3 of what non visa holders
make.
The company that hires H1-Bs must pay the worker the prevailing
wage in the given region and job area, according to wage tables
that are managed by the US government.
My understanding is that the devil is in the details. Esp in
software development. Many of the H1-Bs from I worked were brought
over as Analyst I's (I apologize if I get the exact terms wrong, I
am going by memory) even though the work they were doing would have
qualified them for a higher rating and higher comparable
salaries.
In any case though, I find it very hard to believe that there is
such a shortage of qualified software developers/engineers in the
US. In my later college years (before graduation) the incoming and
< third year students in college were full of comps
sci/engineering majors who saw computers as the wave of the
future.
Again though, I am not advocating that we shouldn't have immigrant
workers or whatnot, I just find that claim to be rather
unbelievable.
|7.6.07 @ 1:20PM|#
I think a number of commenters are missing the point. The goal
of this center isn't to employ Canadians: The goal is to employ
workers from around the world in Canada since it is too hard to get
them into the US anymore.
Since many of these workers are going to be the millionaire movers
and shakers of the future back in their homelands, the real effect
of this new regime is that it will be Canadian culture --
not American -- that they take back and spread throughout the
world.
Can America stand for that? Was it over when the Germans bombed
Pearl Harbor? Hell no!
The Wine Commonsewer®|7.6.07 @ 1:24PM|#
Were I Bill Gates, I would have left town after the Justice Department screwed me over. This is still a nice Randian Shrugging turn of events, however.
|7.6.07 @ 1:25PM|#
I think a number of commenters are missing the point. The
goal of this center isn't to employ Canadians: The goal is to
employ workers from around the world in Canada since it is too hard
to get them into the US anymore.
How much easier to emigrate to Canada? Even without intending to
become a citizen?
thoreau|7.6.07 @ 1:27PM|#
Tom,
I don't know how much easier it is to move to Canada, but I'm
guessing that:
1) If nothing else, better to have two channels to move software
engineers through rather than one.
2) They've probably struck some sort of deal with Canada to get
more than just the bulk advantage.
Guy Montag|7.6.07 @ 1:30PM|#
thoreau,
Yea, that was my idea on the visas, but not limiting it to one
specific employer, just being employed (like my German friend seems
to have been doing since 1998).
Not for an expiration date either, even for tourists.
Now, if you want to come here and laze around on the dole then
become a citizen first, not just a visa holder.
The Wine Commonsewer®|7.6.07 @ 1:31PM|#
Eric, nice try but you ain't getting into the Guiness Book under
use fuck in a sentence category.
Walking into Hanger 296 at El Toro where one of my fellow Misguided
Children was working on an OV-10A. Suddenly a large box wrench goes
flying and clanging across the hanger deck and he screams
Fuck! The fuckin' fucker's fucked!
Top that.
Scooby|7.6.07 @ 1:35PM|#
TWC,
I think the "the" in the second sentence is unnecessary.
Should be "Fuck! Fuckin' fucker's fucked!" Don't need any other
words messin' with the poetry, there.
|7.6.07 @ 1:38PM|#
ChicagoTom,
I can't speak for mislabeling developers as analysts or the like to
get them a lower pay grade. I've never seen it. I doubt a large
company could pull it off given how many people would raise the
issue. I myself am likely to see it as a form of civil disobedience
against oppressive law, but that's just me.
But I am sure you know that software engineers have perhaps the
widest spread of quality and productivity among their ranks of any
occupation. The best engineers are worth 10 times the average
engineer. Allowing companies to recruit from around the world is
much less likely to be used to pay them less and much more likely
to be used to cast such a wide net that you can get the exceptional
ones into your shop -- where, of course, you will have to pay them
well above market wage to keep them from going to the next
shop.
|7.6.07 @ 1:40PM|#
Now, if you want to come here and laze around on the dole
then become a citizen first, not just a visa holder.
I'm with you there, Guy.
I'd go so far as to say that citizens by virtue of birth to
immigrants not yet far enough along the permanent
residency/citizenship track are not eligible for the welfare
privileges afforded long-time citizens.
Rhywun|7.6.07 @ 1:41PM|#
I've worked with enough software engineers in India to decide
that I MUCH prefer my coworkers next to me in person than halfway
around the world. The notion that coding can be done "anywhere in
the world" is a pipe-dream.
How much easier to emigrate to Canada?
I believe it's a great deal easier, as long as your skills fit the
very lengthy list of occupations on their list. I know someone
who's given up on the US and concentrating on Canada now.
Dave W.|7.6.07 @ 1:47PM|#
I work at a technology sector company in Canada that is 75%+ people not from Canada (almost all from various part of Asia). It ain't my dad's technology sector employer, that is for sure!
|7.6.07 @ 1:51PM|#
I've worked with enough software engineers in India to
decide that I MUCH prefer my coworkers next to me in person than
halfway around the world. The notion that coding can be done
"anywhere in the world" is a pipe-dream.
Agreed and agreed.
Applied engineering, support, test, finite projects and subsystems
with clear requirements... These are the things that can be done at
a distant location.
But raw product development really needs to be done in one
location. If the US maintains stupid limitations on high valued
immigrants, that location in future might be in India or China*.
But it's not there yet.
* Not that there's anything wrong with that. As always, more
product built more places means more product to consume and
leverage in the US. But the perception that H1-B limitations
protect US workers is wildly mistaken.
|7.6.07 @ 2:13PM|#
In any case though, I find it very hard to believe that
there is such a shortage of qualified software developers/engineers
in the US.
My company has opening for several hundred engineers -- software,
hardware, systems -- and struggles to find engineers to move the
midwest.
|7.6.07 @ 2:14PM|#
Rhywun, I've done enough projects with offshore engineers to know that it can work very well. The work included plenty of development, such as virtual machines, advanced libraries, and language standards. The key to success was the ability to do work and make decisions via email.
Dave B.|7.6.07 @ 2:23PM|#
In any case though, I find it very hard to believe that there is such a shortage of qualified software developers/engineers in the US. In my later college years (before graduation) the incoming and < third year students in college were full of comps sci/engineering majors who saw computers as the wave of the future.
Having just graduated from a computer science program, I can safely
say that most of these people are not qualified software
developers/engineers. Sure, they can code up small classroom
projects (albeit with difficulty) but very few are capable of
handling important large-scale projects.
|7.6.07 @ 2:32PM|#
Doctor G,
I note that all the outsourceable projects on your list sound
self-contained. Dare I say that the key to success also included
clean, clear requirements and clean, clear interfaces and little
need to worry about what was actually behind the interfaces so long
as it was compliant?
|7.6.07 @ 2:58PM|#
I heartily agree with Chicago Tom. If there is a labor shortage, wages will rise to "correct" it. Isn't that Econ 101? Bill Gates, a typical capitalist, wants to bring in gold-plated indentured servants, who are not allowed to enter the labor market and sell their services to the highest bidder but must work for him alone under the terms that he specifies. I support increased immigration (vastly increased), rather than "guest worker" provisions for either unskilled or skilled positions. Jobs "moving" to Canada don't bother me that much because eventually Canada and the U.S. will fuse. What this country needs is 30 million more pot-smoking social democrats! Solidarity forever!
|7.6.07 @ 2:59PM|#
Doctor G,
Of course, I grant that those other keys to success I enumerated
are how software should be built in any event. And if the larger
project can be broken into smaller projects that admit outsourcing
without high overheads, it is a clear win.
But going back to Rhywun's comment, if you spread those same
smaller projects up among groups all resident in the same building,
those working on different smaller projects are really your
co-workers only in the sense that you see them in the
cafeteria.
|7.6.07 @ 3:08PM|#
If there is a labor shortage, wages will rise to "correct"
it. Isn't that Econ 101?
But if the labor shortage is artificially induced, then the economy
is poorer than it would be absent the shortage.
Bill Gates, a typical capitalist, wants to bring in gold-plated
indentured servants, who are not allowed to enter the labor market
and sell their services to the highest bidder but must work for him
alone under the terms that he specifies.
Then you should be all for higher H1-B quotas so any company can
get as many as they like, allowing them to hire away each others'
indentured servants.
What's that called when indentured servants can be hired by anyone?
Oh, yes. It's called a free labor market.
I support increased immigration (vastly increased), rather than
"guest worker" provisions for either unskilled or skilled
positions.
Agreed.
Guy Montag|7.6.07 @ 3:23PM|#
I'd go so far as to say that citizens by virtue of birth to
immigrants not yet far enough along the permanent
residency/citizenship track are not eligible for the welfare
privileges afforded long-time citizens.
Well, I actually am not for the welfare at all, but you seem to get
what I mean.
Jozef|7.6.07 @ 3:37PM|#
How much easier to emigrate to Canada? Even without
intending to become a citizen?
From my own experience (currently in the process of filling out the
application), the main difference is that Canadian immigration is
much more transparent and predictable. The point system keeps being
adjusted every year to achieve the best mix of immigrants, but once
you submit the application you pretty much know where you stand,
and only if you are borderline will the immigration decision be
based on the subjective judgment of a person you conduct a personal
interview with. In addition, Canadian immigration services can tell
you pretty exactly when your application will get processed,
instead of the last response I got from INS - "within two weeks to
six months."
|7.6.07 @ 3:59PM|#
Microsoft, Sun, etc. are always claiming that they can't hire
enough people, even when the SW industry was tanking (6 or 8? years
ago).
Microsoft has about 70,000 employees worldwide, with 30,000 in
Redmond. This new office is starting with 200 people and expected
to increase to 800 or 1,000: IOW, very minor. Lots of computer-type
Canadians (and doctors, etc) have moved/immigrated to the U.S.
because they can make a *lot* more money here.
MS's immigration angle is just propaganda.
|7.6.07 @ 4:12PM|#
My company has opening for several hundred engineers --
software, hardware, systems -- and struggles to find engineers to
move the midwest.
How sure are
you that they're even trying?
I used to believe that, too, because the only people I was
interviewing that were qualified were all foreign nationals.
Of course, I can only interview the people that HR sends me. And
they ain't gonna find what they ain't lookin' for.
My guess is that while Microsoft's move isn't going to save any
American jobs, it's not likely it will lose any, either.
|7.6.07 @ 4:31PM|#
I almost forgot: here's a video of some attorneys showing how US companies/employers can avoid hiring Americans.
SIV|7.6.07 @ 5:26PM|#
Seriously , I'll ask again.......
Why can't these H1B workers just come in on tourist/student visas
and go to work?
Are they not as sharp as Mexicans?
Have too much respect for the law?
Or is the State selectively enforcing immigration and labor
laws?
|7.6.07 @ 5:29PM|#
But raw product development really needs to be done in one
location. If the US maintains stupid limitations on high valued
immigrants, that location in future might be in India or China*.
But it's not there yet.
Nor is it likely to be, at least not due to immigration policies.
Whatever you think of our immigration policies, they're a helluva
lot more liberal than those of any country in the Pacific Rim
(including those of Japan, which is arguably the only country that
can rival or best us in technical innovation).
Also, you may have noticed that while India and China can produce
top-flight credentialed engineers, and can certainly perform
repetitive manufacturing functions cheaper than we can, they seem
to be a little light in the innovation department. How many of the
products and services that are delivered from those countries
actually had their origin there?
< Sound of crickets chirping >
Compared to our competitors, we're doing just fine in the raw
product development department, even with our current immigration
policies, thankyouverymuch.
Rhywun|7.6.07 @ 5:37PM|#
The key to success was the ability to do work and make
decisions via email.
In my experience, that slows down a project big-time. Even more so
if there are language issues (which are easier to deal with in
person).
And dividing large projects into many smaller projects sounds good
on paper until you try to implement it in the real world and it
doesn't work.
Finally, I've found that outsource workers tend not to have the
extensive business knowledge that all our in-house developers have.
It slows things WAY down when you have to teach them enough
business to understand what the hell you need.
|7.6.07 @ 5:37PM|#
SIV,
Maybe it's that both the prospective illegal employees and their
prospective employers have a hell of a lot more to lose than the
average farm worker and farm owner.
The companies that hire H1-B visa holders have HR departments that
do everything they can to maintain the legality of their employment
relationships. A lot of people's livelihoods and wealth are on the
line. Those HR departments even do things such as attend videotaped
seminars where they learn how to make sure that they are complying
with whatever law is applicable.
Did that possibility not occur to you?
|7.6.07 @ 5:42PM|#
Microsoft is opening up shop in Canada after Congress
screwed them over on visa increases:
By the way, do you even read the articles you link to?
Microsoft spokesman Lou Gellos said that while the immigration issue was a factor, the company would be opening the center in Vancouver even if it were not for the immigration challenges. That said, Vancouver is particularly attractive since it is a short drive from Redmond, Wash., but not bound by U.S. immigration policies.
SIV|7.6.07 @ 7:34PM|#
MikeP,
You are implying that there is more money on the line in IT than in
agribusiness, real estate development, manufacturing and other "old
industries" that routinely employ "illegal labor"?
I'm still asking.... is this some sort of cultural thing with the
employer/employee?
Or are immigration and labor laws selectively enforced by the
Government as a matter of policy?
|7.6.07 @ 8:10PM|#
You are implying that there is more money on the line in IT
than in agribusiness, real estate development, manufacturing and
other "old industries" that routinely employ "illegal
labor"?
I am implying that there is more money on the line for
individual enterprises and for individual employees.
The gross revenue of the particular industry is quite
irrelevant.
I'm still asking.... is this some sort of cultural thing with
the employer/employee?
Almost certainly. Both employer and employee in high tech and other
high value industries are usually more educated, more socialized to
acting in large organizations, less comfortable upsetting the
powers that be.
Or are immigration and labor laws selectively enforced by the
Government as a matter of policy?
This may be the case too. Just as the IRS spends more effort
looking for high earning tax cheats than for low earning tax
cheats, I can believe that ICE spends more effort checking the
I-9's from Microsoft than those from Julio's Landscaping. But I
also expect that they know they can trust high tech HR to be
compliant.
The Wine Commonsewer®|7.6.07 @ 8:29PM|#
Scooby you are correct and I may have had a little brain fade as the incident occurred quite some time ago. As it was a Marine, I doubt he said the word THE (or teh).
|7.6.07 @ 8:29PM|#
By the way, SIV,
For pretty much the very same reasons, I assume that most employers
and citizen employees who keep the employment off the
books, pass money under the table, fail to report income, and do
all sorts of other things to skirt labor laws are in smaller
enterprises in lower earning industries -- not in high tech.
Are you going to insinuate some conclusion about a willful
government policy of selective enforcement from that?
SIV|7.6.07 @ 9:09PM|#
Just as the IRS spends more effort looking for high earning
tax cheats than for low earning tax cheats
They do?
You have a citation?
There are vastly more low earning tax cheats
and they are much easier to catch and fine/prosecute.
I see your point about large vs small enterprises, however I think
you are mis-characterising the nature and scope of "illegal
employment" in this country. It ain't all day laborers, busboys and
seasonal farmhands. I just looked at Mohawk Industries, traded on
the NYSE at 102 a share today, I believe their domestic
manufacturing employees are majority "illegals" . Do they have some
immunity not extended to other industries?
SIV|7.6.07 @ 9:31PM|#
I am still at a loss as to that the 'open borders' types are
talking about since their position seems to shift with any question
about what they really mean.
I have a suspicion that support for "open borders" as it refers to
labor markets is unrestricted immigration of "low value" labor
while maintaining strict quotas on "high value" labor.
The Wine Commonsewer®|7.6.07 @ 9:31PM|#
SIV,
Just as the IRS spends more effort looking for high earning tax
cheats than for low earning tax cheats
This is an accurate statement. Highest exposure for audit are
higher income self-employed people filing Schedule C (Business
Income). Nobody knows where the breaking point is exactly but I
suspect it's around $100,000 to $150,000 and up.
However, any self-employed Schedule C filer has a higher risk of
audit regardless of income, it's just that as your income goes up
so does the chance of audit.
There isn't any percentage in auditing regular working people who
have two kids a mortgage and a W-2 because they have already been
effectively audited by virtue of our insufferable financial
reporting requirements. IOW, the W-2, the 1098, and the social
security numbers of the kids perform the audit function (tell the
tale, blow the whistle, rat you out).
For those who don't know, a Schedule C is used for unincorporated
entities (sole-proprietors) to report business income and expense
in order to arrive at a taxable net profit. It is attached to the
return after Schedules A & B (itemized deductions and interest
& dividend income, respectively)
Those with privately held corporations or LLC's are far more likely
to report and pay taxes correctly than Schedule C filers and,
accordingly, have a far lower chance of audit. However, IRS is
currently doing compliance audits on S corps for statistical
sampling and to learn if this should be an area of focus in the
future.
Take a look at this site with some interesting statistics that I
just pulled out of thin air.
It shows odds of audit to be roughly double for those earning over
100k per year compared to those earning less than 25k per
year.
Hmmm, maybe I'll clean this up and post it over at TWC. Thanks for
the inspiration.
Disclosure: Taxes is my living but I'm not in the book.
The Wine Commonsewer®|7.6.07 @ 9:36PM|#
Actually, there is a lot more info on the site I linked to above than I realized. Good explanation of the DIF program and other valuable information that will be useful to those don't sleep well.
SIV|7.6.07 @ 11:26PM|#
TWC,
I certainly defer to you on tax matters.
I was of the impression that the IRS focused more scrutiny on low
income earners for the self employed as you indicate and on those
using the EIC and iffy itemized deductions.Anecdotally, most people
I've known with tax trouble either did not file or filed as Scedule
C. I would consider most of them to be "lower earners".
Gross receipts of $100,000 to $150,000 and up could well qualify as
such these days.
The news media has reported on the greater scrutiny of those
claiming the EIC.
|7.6.07 @ 11:50PM|#
I don't know if anyone has pointed this out, but university
programs in computer science have had a 50% enrollment drop in the
US over the past five years. There are still good jobs in the
field, but it seems students would rather study the liberal arts
instead of science.
With the visa restrictions on foreign students and restrictions on
certain types of research in the US, it's no wonder we're going to
get our asses handed to us by Canada. Take a look at the results
from the ACM programming competitions to see how well the schools
in Canada are doing.
Microsoft is just going where it can get the best workers. I don't
blame them. The US has done this to themselves.
Sorry for the rant.
|7.7.07 @ 2:45AM|#
I have a suspicion that support for "open borders" as it
refers to labor markets is unrestricted immigration of "low value"
labor while maintaining strict quotas on "high value"
labor.
I can't speak for everybody, but, as an open borders type myself, I
think open borders means open borders: Anyone who can support
themselves in the US should be allowed to travel, live, and work in
the US.
Since higher value workers are more likely to be able to support
themselves, open borders will actually result in shifting the
average skill level of immigrants upward, placing more immigrants
in direct competition with the bulk of American jobs.
Perhaps that, and not a fear of lower skilled foreign
workers, is what actually motivates immigration law. Did I say
"perhaps"? I meant "certainly".
|7.7.07 @ 11:36AM|#
"I don't know if anyone has pointed this out, but university
programs in computer science have had a 50% enrollment drop in the
US over the past five years. There are still good jobs in the
field, but it seems students would rather study the liberal arts
instead of science."
I think students are reacting rationally to their perception of a
declining job market in the US for a BSCS. Why bust your ass
preparing for non-existant jobs, or to get a job that will soon be
outsourced to India or Russia?
The Wine Commonsewer®|7.7.07 @ 1:08PM|#
Engfuckinglish - fucking fucktard fucker
hanger != hangar
But you fucking knew what I fucking meant now didn't you?
Why is it that so many libertarian types wnat to be the grammar
police? I don't get that. This is a blog for Chrysler's sake. We're
not writing technical manuals to operate the space station nor are
we writing a doctoral thesis on grammar in America.
The Wine Commonsewer®|7.7.07 @ 1:15PM|#
SIV, where lower income folks get into trouble is when they live
in Beverly Hills 90210 and show a minuscule taxable income.
I did mean a taxable income of 100k and up is where the risk
potential begins to ratchet up. That's my opinion of course and not
set in stone.
|7.7.07 @ 4:06PM|#
I just looked at Mohawk Industries, traded on the NYSE at
102 a share today, I believe their domestic manufacturing employees
are majority "illegals" . Do they have some immunity not extended
to other industries?
The pattern seems to be that companies that hire any illegals at
all, hire them almost exclusively. It's a kind of specialty, and it
comes with both risks and rewards. The risk is lowest when the
employees can be easily replaced.
|7.7.07 @ 7:50PM|#
Wayne: You're right about the perception that students have. I
think a lot of it is based upon the dot com bust. No one will hand
just anyone millions of dollars anymore for their stupid web based
business.
However, there's also the reality that there are still good jobs to
be had in the field. The ACM (Association for Computing Machinery)
has published some fairly comprehensive reports on the topic.
At our school, we gave substantial scholarships to any US citizen
that could maintain a B average in the program. We couldn't give
away the money due to a lack of interest in the topic amongst US
citizens. Meanwhile, psychology has record enrolment.
Unfortunately, I'm coming to the conclusion that these are jobs
that Americans do not want to do.
Thanks for the response.
|7.7.07 @ 9:40PM|#
However, there's also the reality that there are still good
jobs to be had in the field. The ACM (Association for Computing
Machinery) has published some fairly comprehensive reports on the
topic.
...
Unfortunately, I'm coming to the conclusion that these are jobs
that Americans do not want to do.
Tell that to to these
Americans who just lost their jobs. Half of my department just
got the ax last month.
Having been in the IT industry since 1979, my observation is that
the perception of the aspiring students is a lot more accurate than
the perception of the ACM.
|7.8.07 @ 7:21PM|#
IBM has been emancipating wage slaves for years (as per the
Onion). Interesting link though.
I do think the ACM did a fairly comprehensive and thorough study as
opposed to just looking at individual cases, but they might also
have a bit of a vested interest in reporting positive things.
|7.8.07 @ 11:59PM|#
Here's a New York Times article about IBM's motions in
services and outsourcing with a different
flavor...
"Workers in U.S., India move up IBM ladder"
"SOME JOBS CAN BE MOVED OVERSEAS; OTHERS CAN'T"
...
To compete, companies like IBM have to move up the economic ladder to do more complicated work, as do entire Western economies and individual workers. "Once you start moving up the occupational chains, the work is not as rules-based," said Frank Levy, a labor economist at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology.
In the field of technology services, Levy said, the essential skill is "often a lot more about business knowledge than it is about software technology - and it's a lot harder to ship that kind of work overseas."
Worth reading, for lots of themes hit on this thread.
|7.9.07 @ 1:37PM|#
"To compete, companies like IBM have to move up the economic
ladder to do more complicated work, as do entire Western economies
and individual workers. "Once you start moving up the occupational
chains, the work is not as rules-based," said Frank Levy, a labor
economist at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology."
Boiled down to its essence, this means that American workers have
to be smarter than everybody else. There is no room in the American
economy for tradesmen to earn a living and support a family at an
American level. An American carpenter has to become an
"entreprenurial business expert" and then hand his hammer to his El
Salvadoran replacement.
But the good news is that "we will all be richer in the long
run".
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