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"A Teenage Rebellion Against Low Expectations"
The Modesty Survey is out. It's a poll of Christian youngsters, mostly young men, conducted under the auspices of The Rebelution: A teenage rebellion against low expectations. The soft bigotry of low expectations is everywhere, apparently. The browsable results of the survey contain gems like this bar graph:
A girl's underwear should never show:
The bars show 18 "guys" strongly disagree and 621 strongly agree
with the statement that girls' underwear shouldn't be on
display.
The survey also allowed text responses, including this one from a beleaguered Christian gentleman, age 24: "Sisters in Christ, you really have no concept of the struggles that guys face on a daily basis. Please, please, please take a higher standard in the ways you dress."
What would this poll have been like if conducted on Reason readers?
Via Andrew Sullivan
|3.26.07 @ 1:49PM|#
...far away across the field,
the tolling of the iron bell,
draws the faithful to their knees,
to hear the softly spoken magic spell.
The thought is this, "It is sin for me to have erotic thoughts
about you and showing the top of your thong is causing me to get a
semi. My sin is your fault."
gl|3.26.07 @ 1:49PM|#
So now it's the girls' fault that some guys have no self control...where have I heard that reasoning before? Just utterly ridiculous.
The Wine Commonsewer|3.26.07 @ 1:51PM|#
...no concept of the struggles that guys face...
Well, he's right, girls, er, ah, womyn, (still) have no idea of the
daily struggle guys face with temptation......
Okay, some do, and they seem to work it well. :-)
VM|3.26.07 @ 1:54PM|#
mk - I suggest you try a day with it the other way around. Same
thing: put your shoes and socks on in that order.
Whale
Tail? (NSFW for most places)
The Wine Commonsewer|3.26.07 @ 1:57PM|#
The thing is, and I'll bet Ron Bailey can back me up on this
(being that he was raised Baptist), those prissy, prudish, fundie
teen age church girls were the most likely to, ah, do what you
wanted every girl to do when you were 16.
The more strict and repressive the home life the more likely that
they would sign on for Girls Gone Wild.
Grotius|3.26.07 @ 1:59PM|#
The Wine Commonsewer,
Of course it could be that individuals not living up to the, hmm,
"ideal," skews our appreciation of what is actually happening.
|3.26.07 @ 2:00PM|#
Butt-Floss, aka thongs, are not sexy, just poop stained. Women started wearing them in order to rid themselves of panty lines showing through their pants. Somehow butt-floss became way cool, even more so than no undies at all. Therefore it is only logical in this weird world that to show how cool they are, women wear low rise pants in order to show off the thongs they wear so they don't show panty lines.
The Wine Commonsewer|3.26.07 @ 2:02PM|#
The bars show 18 "guys" strongly disagree and 621 strongly
agree with the statement that girls' underwear shouldn't be on
display.
WRONG,
The bars show 621 guys who are lying. Or parroting the party line
because they know what they're supposed to say. But, like Jimah
Carter, they have lusted in their hearts, every time some chick
bends over........
|3.26.07 @ 2:03PM|#
"Sisters in Christ, you really have no concept of the
struggles that guys face on a daily basis. Please, please, please
take a higher standard in the ways you dress."
I don't know how Reason readers would respond, but I suspect
commenters here at Hit & Run would probably respond likewise,
just in their own way.
I'm not convinced that encouraging women to dress so as not to
inspire temptation is fundamentally worse than encouraging women to
dress provocatively to inspire it.
Either way, women should dress with men in mind only if they want
to. ...No one should dictate to women how they should dress.
The Wine Commonsewer|3.26.07 @ 2:05PM|#
NoStar, thanks for THAT visual......I'm going back to work now.
|3.26.07 @ 2:06PM|#
the whole "not casting your pearls before swine" scripture seems
apropo.
cue the ZZTop
The Wine Commonsewer|3.26.07 @ 2:08PM|#
Schultzy, now that we're done with the fun, you come along and say something that is absolutely sensible, realistic, accurate, and on the mark.
Grotius|3.26.07 @ 2:09PM|#
The Wine Commonsewer,
Well, just like really dramatic catastrophes can skew our
appreciation of the safety of a particular thing, area, etc. some
dramatic episodes of individuals not living up to the "ideal" may
skew our appreciation of how many people actually do live up to
that "ideal."
|3.26.07 @ 2:09PM|#
Thanks VM, I'll file whale tail along side cameltoe in my list of fashion faux pas.
|3.26.07 @ 2:12PM|#
Britney Spears doesn't show her underwear! She just doesn't wear any, is that what they want?
|3.26.07 @ 2:15PM|#
but seriously
In a christian function, do females have a responsibility to dress
with some "modesty" in mind. Scripture does tell us not to be a
stumbling block to others.
TLB|3.26.07 @ 2:17PM|#
Thanks for the survey, that was a hoot!
I think we libertarians can do even better. Let's join with our
progressive brethren and make fun of these Xians every chance we
get. Let's mock those repressed religious freaks mercilessly and
really piss them off!
Maybe Reason could put together a flyer making fun of them, and the
rest of us could print it out and pass it out at churches. Maybe
even buy some ads or something!
What say you, my fellow libertarians?
Greg|3.26.07 @ 2:24PM|#
"Sisters in Christ, you really have no concept of the struggles that guys face on a daily basis. Like how your brother can track down a pair of those slutty sling-backs you're wearing in a mens 13 wide."
Anonymous|3.26.07 @ 2:25PM|#
I have really mixed emotions about AS, H&R and others
publicizing this site. It is indeed useful to shine the bright
light of inquiry into areas that apologists for the christiam right
would rather remain unilluminated. However, the publicity also
gives them a form of legitimacy.
Agree with The Wine Commonsewer that their survey numbers are
unreliable -- even more so after the inevitable post-publicity
pranksters get ahold of the site.
Yes, many of those boys may be closet cases, as was covered
eloquently on Feministe. I pity them all, both gay and
straight.
|3.26.07 @ 2:27PM|#
I'm sorry, but the thong hanging out just shouldn't be done. This is not moralizing, it is insisting that that there is a place in the English language for the word "tacky".
|3.26.07 @ 2:28PM|#
There are many dumb things about this "survey." Chief among them
that covering up will reduce lustful thoughts. It wouldn't. It
would just make young men become excited at whatever lesser level
of skin is shown. A burkha might work, but then guys might be
thinking "I know there's a vagina in there somewhere!"
The other thing is that the "stumbling blocks" remind me of what it
was like when I was thirteen. "Oh my God, look at Susan, she's so
sexy when she blinks."
Grotius|3.26.07 @ 2:33PM|#
VM,
Humans have been figuring out ways to demonstrate their individual
superior sexual traits since we came down from the trees. All those
pointy bras in the 1940s is enough to demonstrate this fact.
|3.26.07 @ 2:35PM|#
TLB | March 26, 2007, 2:17pm | #
Thanks for the survey, that was a hoot!
I think we libertarians can do even better. Let's join with our
progressive brethren and make fun of these Xians every chance we
get. Let's mock those repressed religious freaks mercilessly and
really piss them off!
Maybe Reason could put together a flyer making fun of them, and the
rest of us could print it out and pass it out at churches. Maybe
even buy some ads or something!
What say you, my fellow libertarians?
If only I wasn't at work right now, I'd Photoshop it just for you!
Picture poster with whale tail showing...inscription: To ogle is to
sin...banner on top: Whale Tails for Jesus - Exposing Sinners Since
2002
VM|3.26.07 @ 2:38PM|#
Good call, Gro!
and how each expression of ISST and sets of standards are culture
bound.
And think of the ancient world. Minoans, Greeks, etc - you know
much, much more about that than I do, so you can hopefully decipher
my garbled speak :)
|3.26.07 @ 2:41PM|#
"What say you, my fellow libertarians?"
I say relegating ourselves to atheists is foolish.
|3.26.07 @ 2:43PM|#
I would hope that libertarians would respond to that survey with "Mind your own business you nosy bastard."
|3.26.07 @ 2:44PM|#
I'd have to agree with those 621 who said that a girl's underwear should never show. Because if she's not wearing underwear then there's nothing to see...
Grotius|3.26.07 @ 2:45PM|#
VM,
Well, scenes from Homer's Iliad on pottery show the individuals
involved in those events fighting naked. In the ancient world
people would also wear jewelry shaped like sexual organs. Of course
in Aristophanes' Lysistrata much of the play features guys
running around with huge engorged cocks because their wives won't
have sex with them until the war ends.
Grotius|3.26.07 @ 2:48PM|#
VM,
And of course early modern playwrights used swords as a means to
demonstrate the, hmm, masculinity of male characters.
Grotius|3.26.07 @ 2:50PM|#
VM,
Remember the South Park episode that featured Al Gore? In the caves
they go into the various featured cave formations look like, well,
dicks. When I saw that I thought, man those look like sculptures
often found in classical locales. ;)
Grotius|3.26.07 @ 2:53PM|#
Anyway, in some ways ancient Greeks and Romans weren't remotely as prudish as those of us in the modern West can be. Then again, we also don't generally urinate and defecate in the street (or throw our pots full of urine and feces in the street).
Grotius|3.26.07 @ 2:55PM|#
Or tie our unwanted children up to a tree in the "wilderness" and leave them for wild animals or slave dealers to get.
|3.26.07 @ 2:58PM|#
The bars show 18 "guys" strongly disagree and 621 strongly
agree with the statement that girls' underwear shouldn't be on
display.
621 out of 639 guys are gay?
NoStar | March 26, 2007, 2:00pm | #
Butt-Floss, aka thongs, are not sexy,
NoStar is gay???
JasonL | March 26, 2007, 2:27pm | #
I'm sorry, but the thong hanging out just shouldn't be
done.
JasonL is gay?????????
Not that there's anything wrong with that.
"And I shall make you fishers of whale tails."
|3.26.07 @ 2:59PM|#
So what else is new. Reason proves that guys want girls to be sluts, except for their own girl.
VM|3.26.07 @ 3:03PM|#
Excellent points, Gro!
Stevo!
don't make us send
her to dispense with proper discipline... (oh my! mercy!)
:)
|3.26.07 @ 3:03PM|#
"All those pointy bras in the 1940s is enough to demonstrate
this fact."
When the male/female ratio was lower, like during and after World
War II, women competed with each other more aggressively, I
think.
But as recent trends have played out, say hip huggers, for example,
it seems to me like women are competing with media images. If so,
then I'm not so sure Christian groups and others who target the
media are necessarily barking up the wrong tree. ...It's just their
methods that I have a problem with.
...but let me reemphasize, I can't think of how anybody could
suggest that women in general--women who aren't even in a religious
group, that is--have an obligation to consider how the way they
dress affects men... I can't see how someone can suggest that and
not have some kind of an issue, subconscious or otherwise, with
women and freedom.
VM|3.26.07 @ 3:06PM|#
"Either way, women should dress with men in mind only if they
want to. ...No one should dictate to women how they should
dress."
QFT!
The Wine Commonsewer|3.26.07 @ 3:08PM|#
Grotius, thanks for the elaboration.
TLB, pissing off Christians is a libertarian avocation. I think
there is a chromosome somewhere with a drug addled and slightly
altered gene that's responsible. :-)
In reality, although I enjoy beating up on the religious from time
to time, I think that libertarians (et al) use an awfully broad
brush to paint these guys evil. Most of the religious people I know
look and act pretty normal. My kids play with Adventists who don't
eat meat, Catholics who eat meat on Fridays, and other assorted
trendy fundies who make church easy and fun. Then my kids ask why
they can't go too.
We are beating on these guys up for trying to live up to their own
standards of morality and behavior. And yes, when they begin to
impose that morality by force of law, they deserve it. But a simple
attempt to live by your own freely chosen morals is of value.
It's analgous to your buddy telling you how stupid you are for not
doing that little drunk hottie that has been coming on to you all
night. It's not that the thought doesn't cross you mind, but you
said I won't when you said I Do.
D.A. Ridgely|3.26.07 @ 3:10PM|#
As Tom Lehrer once sang, "Properly construed, everything is
lewd." Since we're dealing with straight lines and circles, it
isn't hard to read Freudian implications into anything. So, also,
the survey just goes to prove that these Christian kids have sex on
their minds. I'm shocked.
Oh, TWC, I'll take that bet. Giving odds?
And VM, I found the "Worst Family Photo Ever" after a bit more
digging and posted it here.
Grotius|3.26.07 @ 3:10PM|#
...have an obligation to consider how the way they dress
affects men...
Men and women (gay, bi or straight) dress particular ways in part
because of our biology. I don't know if that is an "obligation,"
but it is an aspect of our nature.
The Wine Commonsewer|3.26.07 @ 3:13PM|#
"And I shall make you fishers of whale tails."
Threadwinner.
Grotius|3.26.07 @ 3:13PM|#
By "particular ways" I mean in ways that attract. The particular fashion of the day is as variable as the sands on the beach.
The Wine Commonsewer|3.26.07 @ 3:16PM|#
DA, are thinking that Ron Bailey will or won't back me up on my
theory?
Nice family photo, I liked VM's better though.
Grotius|3.26.07 @ 3:17PM|#
The Wine Commonsewer,
Given the general public rhetoric that comes out of the mouths of
many religious persons (though not all certainly) stuff like this
as a rule is fair game as much as what the members of any ideology
say is fair game.
Grotius|3.26.07 @ 3:19PM|#
I also don't think that it matters whether a group of people advocate government meddling or not. The marketplace of ideas should mean at the very least that one should expect a certain amount of competition.
The Wine Commonsewer|3.26.07 @ 3:21PM|#
Gro, I think we tend to equate mouthy people like Dobbs and
Falwell with the run of the mill religious person.
Then again, I do live in progressive and sometimes sunny
Californicate, so maybe my perspective is skewed.
Grotius|3.26.07 @ 3:28PM|#
Anyway, just as an example of what I mean, enough religious people put videos online that responses by Atheists seem perfectly appropriate.
D.A. Ridgely|3.26.07 @ 3:29PM|#
TWC, I'm guessing he would, as Bertie Wooster was wont to do, enter a nulli prosequi in the matter. I haven't seen VM's pic.
The Wine Commonsewer|3.26.07 @ 3:35PM|#
DA,
Your pix was funnier but VM's was
interesting-er
Gro, yes I did mean Dobson, apologies to Lou Dobbs. :-)
TWC
VM|3.26.07 @ 3:41PM|#
DAR - terrific!
When looking for that on Images.google.com, I came across a pic of
a lady in a burqa. Only a burqa. mercy!
TWC - :) I don't have the guts to post the pic named above!
|3.26.07 @ 3:51PM|#
I think that libertarians (et al) use an awfully broad brush to paint these guys evil.
Not many people are calling them evil. I just think they're
whiny.
Goldwater Conservative|3.26.07 @ 3:51PM|#
I'm not religious, but understand. It's fun to mock the
religious, but women can't have it both ways. So many women dress
like sluts and then complain that they are treated that way. If I
put on a police officer uniform, I can't get angry with the
assumption that I am a cop.
I'm a man and get aroused and that is my issue. However, many women
dress as if that is their goal. Are many women so stupid to think
that their low rise jeans, and cleavage are simply fashion
statements?
If you dress/act like a whore, don't complain when you are treated
like one.
I workout a lot and wear tight shirts. Why? Because my body is
fucking hot, but I don't complain when gay guys give me a look,
because I dress like a gay gym whore.
Jennifer|3.26.07 @ 3:56PM|#
If you dress/act like a whore, don't complain when you are
treated like one.
Tell that to some Saudi tart who's getting lashed for showing her
sexy ankles in public.
The Wine Commonsewer|3.26.07 @ 4:03PM|#
Eric.5
Whiney, yes. Today, we're just having fun. But, oh, Eric, sometimes
it gets pretty intense. Maybe I'm wrong, but I'd say that generally
speaking libertarians think the religious range from nutty to
pathetic and are mostly evil. There is no doubt that the Randian
faction sees evil.
As Mrs TWC says, it isn't like they don't deserve a good mocking
now and again.
LarryA|3.26.07 @ 4:03PM|#
When I was a teenager (1960-1967) women did not show underwear.
It was unusual to find photos of women's underwear unless you were
searching for them.
I don't recall any resulting lull in horniness.
D.A. Ridgely|3.26.07 @ 4:08PM|#
When I was a teenager (1960-1967) women did not show
underwear. It was unusual to find photos of women's underwear
unless you were searching for them.
Which was as easy as picking up the Sears, Wards or J.C. Penny's
catalogs that came in the mail. Alas, Victoria's Secret was still a
secret.
|3.26.07 @ 4:18PM|#
I retaliate at church by wearing a thong and letting it ride high. I am middle age, fat hairy, bald (I dont want to hear a single woof)and it seems to have gotten the point across to the young Lewinskis in training. They are being more modest. Mysterious phone pics on the bulletin board in their parents sunday school class works pretty good too.
|3.26.07 @ 4:23PM|#
get a grip on your lives. Underwear are you joking? They have polls about this now?..and since when does being christian make you a fag,,i didn't know jesus or god didn't approve of the undergarments of females. Last time i checked Adam and Eve were both pretty much naked all the time..Stop sheltering yourselves and everyone around you and grow up. If 90% of the male world had their way all you christian radicals would never leave your house because of the evil that is underwear.
|3.26.07 @ 4:27PM|#
I read the survey. The guys responding are teenaged
boys. They get erections from viewing tomatoes in the produce
aisle. (One of the commenters at Feministe quoted Buffy the Vampire
Slayer: "I'm sixteen!! Linoleum makes me think about sex!") The
only thing that could keep them from thinking about sex would be
heavy sedation, and I'm not really certain about that. (Guys, any
tips here? My older son is eight, so I need to start studying
this.) Thus, my problem with the survey at all is that no one has
apparently discussed the fact with these poor kids that they're
just going to think this sort of thing, so learn to deal until the
hormone years pass, and also, until that magic day when stacks of
tires or watermelons don't cause boners, avoid doing something
stupid. Instead, we have 600+ comments about whether swimsuits
cause them to stumble.
I say this as an actual religious person. The fruits of the spirit
as listed in Galatians 5:22-23 include self-control, so one could
argue that these boys haven't been saved since that lack that
essential manifestation of the Holy Spirit. I wouldn't argue that,
since I'm not a fundamentalist, but from the perspective of the
survey guys it's probably a valid position.
Finally, they probably wouldn't consider my church orthodox, since
we're nice to gay people and all. Also, we were a SXSW
venue. Playing the Devil's Music in our sanctuary disqualifies
us from heaven, you know.
Boyd|3.26.07 @ 4:29PM|#
Furthermore, if they dress like sluts, obviously they have to be able to deal with the slander that may come afterwards. Those who can't deal with it shouldnt do it. But I firmly believe that they know they are dressing slutty and therefore can and do deal with it. They may not like to be called sluts, but who would. Obviously they aren't just gonna take it, so expect backlash. Agian, just because you dress like a skank doesn't mean they act like them, its fashion and it seems to me everyone is looking way to far into the issue.
jimmydageek|3.26.07 @ 4:34PM|#
I read the survey. The guys responding are teenaged boys.
They get erections from viewing tomatoes in the produce
aisle...
...so learn to deal until the hormone years pass, and also, until
that magic day when stacks of tires or watermelons don't cause
boners...
And, at what age does this 'magic' occur?? I'm 28 and still get
boners outta nowhere...
jimmydageek|3.26.07 @ 4:37PM|#
I say this as an actual religious person. The fruits of the
spirit as listed in Galatians 5:22-23 include self-control, so one
could argue that these boys haven't been saved since that lack that
essential manifestation of the Holy Spirit. I wouldn't argue that,
since I'm not a fundamentalist, but from the perspective of the
survey guys it's probably a valid position.
Ma'am, you try being a guy for one day, and you try controlling
your boners!
|3.26.07 @ 4:38PM|#
brotherben, thanks. I grew up in rural East Texas and went to a very conservative church. A good grounding in religion can be very useful.
Boyd|3.26.07 @ 4:41PM|#
this debate is going nowhere, fundamentaly religious people are crazy. That's it. That's all. To believe that God or Jesus even gives a flying fuck about this issue is insane. You would think all the other shit he might have to deal with would be a bit more pressing than whether or not undergarmentss are shown. Just think about it for a second. Its mind blowing. There must be a lack of hope in your lives if religion plays this much of a roll. I mean everyone needs something to believe in but the notion of religion is basically a widely accepted cult. So eat your bread and drink your wine and pray that everyone can be saved.
dhex|3.26.07 @ 4:49PM|#
"If you dress/act like a whore, don't complain when you are
treated like one."
it's good to know that clothing gives others license to
abuse.
hooray for the tyranny of the majority, eh?
|3.26.07 @ 4:50PM|#
"slutty" and "skanky" is a matter of opinion, isn't it. If a large enough percentage of young women are wearing their underwear this way to the point that it has become normal than I don't think you can really say they are dressing like a slut. What's thought of as modest today would have been scandalous 50 years ago.
|3.26.07 @ 4:50PM|#
"There must be a lack of hope in your lives if religion
plays this much of a roll. I mean everyone needs something to
believe in but the notion of religion is basically a widely
accepted cult. So eat your bread and drink your wine and pray that
everyone can be saved."
Nevermind thousands of years of culture and tradition. Forget the
comfort religion may have brought you. Don't mind the existential
panic of your youth, and your reaction thereto.
Boyd has spoken.
|3.26.07 @ 4:59PM|#
Not in themselves, but they make calves more
sexually appealing and can be a stumbling block with even
a knee-length skirt.
I thought this one was funny. Its a response by a 26 year old, to
the question: Are heels 2" and taller imodest?. Calf fetish...
The Wine Commonsewer|3.26.07 @ 5:02PM|#
Not into tall shoes myself, don't much like cattle either. Both are cultural, all chicks ran around barefoot in my day and I lived near a dairy.
D.A. Ridgely|3.26.07 @ 5:23PM|#
The fruits of the spirit ... we're nice to gay people and
all.
[Insert homophobic punch line here.]
Calf fetish...
We're having veal for dinner, Portnoy.
|3.26.07 @ 6:06PM|#
Just to set the record straight, I'll let this story speak for
itself:
In 1967, I was 12 when my mother asked me what I thought about
miniskirts.
"Uh, I'm not sure." I replied.
"That surprises me," She said, "Being your father's son, I thought
you'd like them."
I answered, "Oh, I like them alright, but sometimes they make me
awfully nervous."
I can tell you that nothing has changed in 40 years.
|3.26.07 @ 6:33PM|#
And uh, I happen to look over at a certain point during the meal and see a waitress taking an order, and I found myself wondering what color her underpants might be. Her panties. Uh, odds are they are probably basic white, cotton, underpants. But I sort of think well maybe they're silk panties, maybe it's a thong. Maybe it's something really cool that I don't even know about.
Goldwater Conservative|3.26.07 @ 6:57PM|#
hooray for the tyranny of the majority, eh?
It's got nothing to do with tyranny. I am not advocating government
involvement. I am saying that a woman should be aware of what her
clothes say. The whole point of tight/short clothing is to
titillate. Being nude is another matter, there is nothing
inherently sexual about nudity. Nudity is about as natural as you
can get.
It's sick that young girls are dressing like whores in training.
Women doing it is another matter. Thankfully, my womanfriend and
soon to be fiance dresses like a respectable woman. She does dress
sexy, but that is just for me and not everyman in the city. It may
sound old-school but feminism seemed to forget that feminism was
really about equality and choice, not just taking on the worst
behaviors possible.
Does any boy want their mother dressing like a whore?
D.A. Ridgely|3.26.07 @ 7:00PM|#
Does any boy want their mother dressing like a
whore?
Like Mama used to say, it takes a heap o' steady customers to make
a home a house.
The Wine Commonsewer|3.26.07 @ 7:18PM|#
DAR, you are on a roll.....the Portnoy crack was
priceless.
Not sure that all girls are dressing like whores in training
although some probably are.
I nearly failed 9th grade algebra because of the mini skirt.
The Wine Commonsewer|3.26.07 @ 7:19PM|#
Does any boy want their mother dressing like a
whore?
Vice is nice, but incest is best.
Whoa, that's really bad.
|3.26.07 @ 8:01PM|#
I would have gone with the "shouldn't show" group. It's trashy.
I much prefer women who attract and hold my attention without
resorting to vulgarity, and have passed by several relationship
opportunities in the decade since my divorce due to a simple lack
of class on the part of the women.
I call this the "Lenny Bruce Conundrum." If you look at Bruce's
act, he really wasn't very good. He covered that up with a layer of
profanity, like covering last month's meat with today's chili
sauce. Today, most comics sound just like him, and the language is
just plain worthless. The more profanity, generally the less
imagination in their acts. It sometimes seems like they use those
words in place of "Duh" -- they want to make some kind of sound
while they try to find something else to say.
There are exceptions, such as Robin Williams, where the language
just seems to fall out, but I'll walk past a free Williams show to
pay to see Bill Cosby.
Likewise, I would much rather see a lady who doesn't think that the
only thing attractive about her is her underwear.
|3.26.07 @ 8:08PM|#
I call this the "Lenny Bruce Conundrum." If you look at
Bruce's act, he really wasn't very good. He covered that up with a
layer of profanity, like covering last month's meat with today's
chili sauce.
What Lenny Bruce are you talking about? Not the insanely insightful
social satirist.
Goldwater Conservative|3.26.07 @ 8:24PM|#
Not the insanely insightful social satirist.
Insightful doesn't mean funny as a stand-up. To be honest, I think
he would have been better in a different medium (a la H.L. Mencken,
Ambrose Bierce). Social satirists need time and thought and the
pace of a stand-up act is not conducive to that. Lenny Bruce was a
martyr but he was he really "funny"?
Is Seinfeld really funny? Or is he one of those people who just
gets "it" before we got "it" and we think, "Oh shit, he gets
it!!!"
D.A. Ridgely|3.26.07 @ 8:36PM|#
Lenny Bruce wrote quite possibly the best joke ever:
"My mother-in-law broke up my marriage...
my wife caught us in bed together...
she yelled "Pervert!"...
"Pervert?" I said, "What do you mean? ...
She's not my mother!"
Confederate Railroad|3.26.07 @ 8:37PM|#
I like my women just a little on the trashy side,
When they wear their clothes too tight and their hair is
dyed.
Too much lipstick an' er too much rouge,
Gets me excited, leaves me feeling confused.
An' I like my women just a little on the trashy side.
Shoulda seen the looks on the faces of my Dad and Mom,
When I showed up at the door with a date for the senior prom.
They said: "Well, pardon us son, she ain't no kid.
"That's a cocktail waitress in a Dolly Parton wig.
I said: "I know it dad, ain't she cool, that's the kind I dig."
The Wine Commonsewer|3.26.07 @ 8:38PM|#
DAR, until right now, I did not think Lenny Bruce was
funny.
TWC
D.A. Ridgely|3.26.07 @ 8:42PM|#
Bruce was very funny early in his career, though it was a hip, cool sort of humor, and unfortunately much less funny toward the end of his life by which point he became obsessed with his trials. If you listen to the early recorded routines (available on CD, btw), you'll note he didn't use all that much profanity even by 60s standards in much of his material. And when he was vulgar or profane, which he certainly was on occasion, the routine usually called for the words in question. The point is, he didn't "work blue" as did, for example, Redd Foxx, and as altogether too many lesser talents today.
|3.26.07 @ 8:43PM|#
I'll grant you that Bruce was not funny in the sense that
stand-up comedians are funny, but he was good. His act was good.
The pace of his act was an integral part of that.
And he was funny:
"If Jesus had been killed twenty years ago, Catholic school
children would be wearing little electric chairs around their necks
instead of crosses."
"I sort of felt sorry for the damn flies. They never hurt anybody.
Even though they were supposed to carry disease, I never heard
anybody say he caught anything from a fly. My cousin gave two guys
the clap, and nobody ever whacked her with a newspaper."
Funny.
D.A. Ridgely|3.26.07 @ 8:52PM|#
Yeah, I think Mr. Gillespie is wrong in his appraisal, but it is
ultimately a matter of taste. Bruce was never uproariously funny
the way, say, Prior at the top of his game could be. But there are
culture shift problems here that warp our own ability to appreciate
him in his generation. Listen to cutting edge jazz from Louie
Armstrong's Hot Fives and it doesn't sound so revolutionary today,
but it was then and anyone hearing it back then knew it.
Same with Bruce for his era, and he got a big reaction, too.
But Bruce started taking himself way too seriously eventually, plus
he was, in fact, persecuted by the police and courts. (Persecution
aside, the same sort of argument can be made about Hitchcock after
the French critics declared him a genius and his work went downhill
after that.)
I'm not saying Bruce was the funniest comedian ever or even that he
was the most influential (though he is certainly among the most
influential, sometimes for all the wrong reasons). But anyone who
contends he wasn't funny at all is, in my opinion, simply
wrong.
|3.26.07 @ 8:54PM|#
DAR,
Yeah, the later Lenny recordings are very interesting, but as he
speaks more and more about his trials, he's less and less funny.
I'd still listen to his trial stories over Jello Biafra's (and I
enjoy Jello).
A lot of Lenny Bruce is also available on eMusic.
Goldwater Conservative|3.26.07 @ 9:28PM|#
Bruce was influential, in fact, his direct descendant is George Carlin and it shows. The persecution of Carlin(the 7 words you can't say) was far milder than Bruce's. I give Bruce his respect as a free-speech martyr and recognize he was a godfather of a line of comedians so wide that Jon Stewart and Lewis Black can be traced to him.
The Wine Commonsewer|3.26.07 @ 9:42PM|#
Hey Karen, Mrs TWC is in your home town and she says it's raining cats and pigs. I sent her off to the airport early this morning without a fresh cup of coffee, which relegated her to some dreadfully bad airport coffee, laced with sugar and white paint. That is nigh on unforgivable and I have felt guilty all day.
|3.26.07 @ 10:07PM|#
TWC, she'll be lucky to get home tonight. It's been raining for
nigh on five hours and likely to continue for about that long
again. On the bright side, Bergstrom Airport does have some really
good restaurants, including, I think, an Austin Java, which serves
actual freshly-ground coffee. Still won't make up for your failure
this morning. I think you'll have to provide jewelry to fix that
problem. At least a good bottle of wine.
Seriously, hope she gets home at something remotely resembling
reasonable. Bergstrom isn't quite Gitmo -- the one in Atlanta,
however, is another story -- but it's still an airport, with all
the charm that implies. I'll send good thoughts.
dhex, masochistic liberal|3.26.07 @ 10:20PM|#
"It's got nothing to do with tyranny. I am not advocating
government involvement. I am saying that a woman should be aware of
what her clothes say."
previously:
"If you dress/act like a whore, don't complain when you are treated
like one."
let me underscore "don't complain" in reference to when someone
else decides to push their will upon you.
do i disagree that people should know what the score is? of course
not. people are fucked and men don't respect the sovereignty of
women. (which is far less important than whether one approves of
how someone else dresses)
do i accept the premise? no, because it is bullshit. men heckle and
catcall; this is partly class-based and partly safety in numbers.
it is bullshit, and it is underscored by two somewhat complementary
memes.
1) men cannot control themselves sexually or emotionally.
2) the only way women can avoid problems is by submitting to the
implicit threat of violence and dressing as inconspicuously as
possible.
way to make dworkin's point for her, dude.
dhex, masochistic liberal|3.26.07 @ 10:23PM|#
or in simpler terms:
sovereignty for women ends when a man's will begins!
Goldwater Conservative|3.26.07 @ 10:54PM|#
let me underscore "don't complain" in reference to when someone
else decides to push their will upon you.
People push their will upon me all the time. Doesn't bother me, it
only bothers me when the government, for which I pay taxes, decides
to get involved.
The Wine Commonsewer|3.26.07 @ 11:27PM|#
Karen, thanks for the good wishes, fortunately she's going to be
there another day talking to the legislature about school choice.
In this case on behalf of virtual charter schools, which she thinks
may become a viable option in Texas.
She is enjoying the rain and the green. Being we live in the
Everbrown hills of So Cal and it hasn't rained this year, it is a
treat for her to see some.
The Wine Commonsewer|3.26.07 @ 11:39PM|#
dhex, I see it a little differently. You ought to be able to
walk through the bad part of town late at night and not get mugged.
Women ought to be able to dress however they want without getting
harassed, raped, fondled, or otherwise hassled. In both cases,
prudence dictates being careful.
The reality is this: There are some men who are jerks, some who are
dangerous, and some who will mistake freedom for an invitation.
Taking that into account has nothing to do with being oppressed,
it's more like using good sense.
Add to the mix that some women enjoy that kind of attention
(catcalls, hoots, howls, gawking) and the argument falls
apart.
Aside from that, with premises such as
1) men cannot control themselves sexually or emotionally.
2) the only way women can avoid problems is by submitting to the
implicit threat of violence and dressing as inconspicuously as
possible.
it is you who have made Dworkin's point.
Obviously most men can control themselves emotionally and sexually
or every woman would be a victim. To think otherwise is, as you
say, bullshit.
|3.27.07 @ 12:18AM|#
Guys, we're missing the most important point of all:
Lonewacko posted here without saying a single word about
immigration.
So here's the real question: What if a Mexican immigrant displays
her underwear in a suggestive manner? Is she assimilating into
American culture and hence no longer a threat to our
sovereignty?
Inquiring minds want to know.
Goldwater Conservative|3.27.07 @ 12:19AM|#
Women ought to be able to dress however they want without
getting harassed, raped, fondled, or otherwise hassled
Everyone should be free of the initiation of force, but not
everyone agrees with this. Clothes say something. It is how humans
must operate by nature. If someone is alone and approached by
someone who looks like a gangbanger they will behave differently
than if he was dressed like a cowboy. Clothes are a statement, and
sometimes that statement says "slut" and I see nothing wrong with
someone using their right to free-speech to point it out.
Obviously most men can control themselves emotionally and
sexually or every woman would be a victim. To think otherwise is,
as you say, bullshit.
What is with emotion? If you think people can control themselves
emotionally are depressed people making a lifestyle choice or
something? Emotions are involuntary or else humanity has been
dealing with sadness incorrectly since the beginning of time.
It isn't an issue of control. People have a right to have bowel
movements, but don't complain if doing it in public or discussing
it with a non-fetishist isn't disgusting. People don't control
feelings of disgust.
The Wine Commonsewer|3.27.07 @ 12:50AM|#
Gold, of course people can control their emotions. Or, more
precisely, absent mental illness they can control how they respond
to their emotions. Let me assure you that if I was unable to
control my emotions I'd be on death row at San Quentin for killing
some jack ass who desperately needed killing. And, I'm so pyscho
that after the deed was done, I'd feel really guilty. So, maybe
you're right.
I'm not clear where you're going with that line of reasoning but my
response was to the Dhex claim that men cannot control themselves
sexually or emotionally. His words, not mine, and I disagree with
his premise. Not sure, but maybe you missed that.
Thow-row, thanks for a little levity. I missed Lone Whacko's post
that wasn't immigration related.
Now, I've got to boot my kids into bed.
|3.27.07 @ 12:55AM|#
TWC-
He's not posting as "Lonewacko" these days. He now posts as "TLB".
Check out the 2:17 pm post.
LarryA|3.27.07 @ 2:20AM|#
Ma'am, you try being a guy for one day, and you try
controlling your boners!
My father set me straight on that excuse fifty years ago. You can't
control getting boners, but you can control what you do with
them.
|3.27.07 @ 2:46AM|#
So here's the real question: What if a Mexican immigrant
displays her underwear in a suggestive manner? Is she assimilating
into American culture and hence no longer a threat to our
sovereignty?
Give me your tired, your poor, your hot, hot Latina hootchie
mamas.
Todd Frye|3.27.07 @ 8:41AM|#
One day a little girl came home and showed her mother a dime.
"Where did you get that?" her mother demanded.
"A man game it to me, to stand on my head."
The mother was horrified. "Oh, you rat. Don't you know he just
wanted to see your underwear?"
The next day the little girl came home with another dime. "What did
I tell you yesterday?" demanded her mother.
"Don't worry," the girl assured her. "I wasn't wearing any
underwear!"
The Wine Commonsewer|3.27.07 @ 9:41AM|#
Thanks Thow-row and I even responded to his comment, not
knowing. Of course, I would have commented anyway.
Stevo, that was excellent.
Todd, you could go to jail for posting that.
Man, we had a storm blow in here this morning, it just flipped the
table over on the deck and slammed it into the wall. Sounded like a
truck drove through the wall.
dhex|3.27.07 @ 9:55AM|#
"Add to the mix that some women enjoy that kind of attention
(catcalls, hoots, howls, gawking) and the argument falls
apart."
most do not, however.
i may have mis-written - i don't buy the idea that men cannot
control themselves. but i think that's what's being reinforced by
the "don't dress like a whore" thing (outside of the inherent
sexism of reducing someone to semi-human status as an
object).
that's part of life, obviously. but i also don't buy that clothing
gives license to inherently abusive behavior. if you've ever
watched a group of men yell at an attractive woman - dressed
conservatively or otherwise - it's first and foremost a group
bonding thing. (what the academic types might call "homosocial
bonding") a "god damn" under the breath is one thing; "hey purple
pants! purple pants where you goin'!" is another; the stereotypical
construction worker "hey sweetie suck my dick" is of course,
something else entirely.
keep in mind we also see a tiny bit of this phenomenon on this blog
any time - and seemingly absolutely any time - a female author,
pundit, etc is featured. their appearance is always factored into
one, if not several comments, and often weighted as a further
negative if the commenter disagrees with their
position/cause/etc.
anyhoo, peep this:
http://www.hollabacknyc.blogspot.com/
how many of them were asking for it?
"Clothes are a statement, and sometimes that statement says "slut"
and I see nothing wrong with someone using their right to
free-speech to point it out."
see, the issue is that the person who decides to interject
unsolicited opinions of this kind of nature - to insult or harass -
is a fuckface. now, i'm decidedly racist against fuckfaces, so this
may just be an issue with me.
dhex|3.27.07 @ 9:57AM|#
"People push their will upon me all the time. Doesn't bother me,
it only bothers me when the government, for which I pay taxes,
decides to get involved."
somehow i don't think you get a lot of random strangers asking you
for sexual favors or treating you like a piece of furniture - i may
be wrong on this, so feel free to correct me.
dhex|3.27.07 @ 10:30AM|#
ok, storytime:
i was riding the f train back from my mma class in queens on a
rather cold and foggy hallow's eve when we hit 23rd and ely by
queens plaza. there were five people on the train; an older black
woman (mid 50s) who had gotten on a few stops before, presumably
after getting off of work from some medical type joint - she had
scrubs on under her long coat - was sitting across from me. down
the way were two guys chatting in spanish, and one older dude
reading a post down on the end. at this stop, a very drunk 30-ish
something guy gets on, sits down and starts doing the drunk guy
talking to himself routine.
at some point between that stop and 63rd/lex (five minutes?) he
turns to the woman, who is minding her own business, and starts
yelling at her. he gets to a choice line - "can you hear me? no one
wants your wrinkled old smelly pussy, you fucking bitch." that's
when i got up in his face and, luckily for both of us, he got off
the train at the next stop.
maybe she was asking for it too?
and you should hear some of the vendors at fundraisers i work at;
anything under the age of 30 will invariably get deeply
inappropriate comments with utterly no provocation. why? because
they can't fight back against guests. i watched some old fucking
waste of space follow one co-worker back to our taxi promising to
bring her to paris that evening. he'd been following her around all
day.
because women aren't fully human in the eyes of everyone,
unfortunately; and due to the general disinterest of others in
getting involved, relatively non-violent harassment gets a free
pass, and perhaps even worse is born from that.
to blame this on skimpy clothing seems impossibly ignorant of
history. it's far deeper than that. (bloom on the beach comes to
mind, actually...)
ellipsis|3.27.07 @ 6:41PM|#
Holy shit! I actually know the two dweebs that did this web
site. Off the rails is putting it mildly. They seem to hold the
belief that any male/female interaction before
marriage is wrong. Which kind of makes it hard to get
married.
They've been spared the wedgie they deserve because they were
homeschooled. But I can give out addresses to rectify that
situation.
ellipsis|3.27.07 @ 6:58PM|#
Also notice the woman with the veil at the top. That's not by
accident. We're talking about the mullah wing of the fundamentalist
theology.
I can't rule out secretly gay. When you're 35 and still not
married, something is definitely going on.
|3.27.07 @ 7:18PM|#
Humans have been figuring out ways to demonstrate their
individual superior sexual traits since we came down from the
trees. All those pointy bras in the 1940s is enough to demonstrate
this fact.
Please don't mention those. I get a bad image of Santa and an elf
chanting "You'll shoot your eye out..."
|3.27.07 @ 7:24PM|#
Guys, any tips here? My older son is eight, so I need to
start studying this.
Just hope he discovers the joys of "alone time" fairly quickly,
otherwise he's going to spend several years in a very...high-strung
state. Even then, he probably won't calm down until his first
serious girlfriend. The best thing you can do is gently advise him
on how to keep from looking like a freak in front of the girls that
he interacts with, since you were there on the other side and you
know how they'll react and what'll send them running in the other
direction. I'm still thankful to my parents for telling me all the
creepy behaviors to avoid while dating.
|3.28.07 @ 3:20AM|#
ellipsis:
"When you're 35 and still not married, something is definitely
going on."
Does that apply to anyone, or just to people who oppose any
interaction between the sexes prior to marriage?
|3.28.07 @ 4:13AM|#
ellipsis:
How the heck did you manage to know these guys?
And I thought they were 17 or something. 35?
ellipsis|3.28.07 @ 1:58PM|#
bachelor: Option 2
Manchester: Sorry, I was referring to their oldest brother, who's
my age. How I know them is a long story, but let's summarize by
saying they live near me.
|3.29.07 @ 4:14AM|#
ellipsis:
Oh, got it. You mean this dude? Says
on his website he got married like 9 years ago. Whatever.
Hehe, if you ever feel like sharing the story about how you know
these modesty guys, shoot me an email. I've been looking at their
site some more and it's... Sheesh.
|4.6.07 @ 4:20AM|#
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