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Whether Loud Be Her Cheers or Soft Be Her Tears
The riots in France have now spread to 300 towns, and have claimed their first fatality. Gregory Djerejian offers a weary comment on the chaos:
I am not one who believes that some pan-Eurabian intifada is in the offing, or that the implications of these riots rival 9/11, or that Shamil Basayev's guerilla tactics are being adopted off la Place de la Republique--as breathless, under-informed 'commentary' has it in some quarters of the blogosphere. But we certainly have a pivot point here, one where the ruling elite's inefficacy and ineptness is being laid crudely bare for all the world to see. They have been tone-deaf and caught off guard by the depth of the alienation in their midst, and it has now caught them very much unawares and seemingly clueless on how next to respond.
Djerejian wouldn't agree, but one especially clueless response came from Interior Minister Nicolas Sarkozy. Here's Doug Ireland's description:
"Sarko" made headlines with his declarations that he would "karcherise" the ghettos of "la racaille" -- words the U.S. press, with glaring inadequacy, has translated to mean "clean" the ghettos of "scum." But these two words have an infinitely harsher and insulting flavor in French. "Karcher" is the well-known brand name of a system of cleaning surfaces by super-high-pressure sand-blasting or water-blasting that very violently peels away the outer skin of encrusted dirt -- like pigeon-shit -- even at the risk of damaging what's underneath. To apply this term to young human beings and proffer it as a strategy is a verbally fascist insult and, as a policy proposed by an Interior Minister, is about as close as one can get to hollering "ethnic cleansing" without actually saying so. It implies raw police power and force used very aggressively, with little regard for human rights. I wonder how many Anglo-American correspondents get the inflammatory, terribly vicious flavor of the word in French? The translation of "karcherise" by "clean" just misses completely the provocative, incendiary violence of what Sarko was really saying. And "racaille" is infinitely more pejorative than "scum" to French-speakers -- it has the flavor of characterizing an entire group of people as subhuman, inherently evil and criminal, worthless...
Meanwhile, it took President Chirac 11 days to make any public comment about the riots at all.
|11.7.05 @ 12:54PM|#
So much for Europe feeling morally superior for not abandoning their underclass like in New Orleans.
|11.7.05 @ 12:56PM|#
I don't understand--why is the comment called clueless? It seems to offer some useful insight.
rox_publius|11.7.05 @ 12:59PM|#
it's a horrifying revelation of my own irrational hatred that i
find myself pleased that those who would tell us to conduct our
business have the results of their own failed policies to deal
with.
logically, i realize that ultimately instability in france and
elsewhere creates negative consequences for us all, but still...
the satisfaction is there. i guess i'm not the bigger man.
|11.7.05 @ 12:59PM|#
I wonder if Sarkozy has just permanently blew his chances for the presidency by his (in)actions?
Jesse Walker|11.7.05 @ 12:59PM|#
Luisa: I accidentally posted an incomplete version of this blog entry for a couple of minutes, and I assume you're responding to that. Just to be clear: I think it's Sarkozy's comment, not Ireland's, that's clueless.
|11.7.05 @ 1:03PM|#
Meanwhile, it took President Chirac 11 days to make any
public comment about the riots at all.
What? Not even a flyover in L'Arm�e de l'Air Un?
|11.7.05 @ 1:08PM|#
Deus ex Machina,
That depends on how the white part of the French electorate
responds.
rox_publius,
Such "Chicken Roosting" commentary has been common since this all
erupted. You can take comfort that you aren't alone.
|11.7.05 @ 1:16PM|#
Does anyone know how far-right leader Jean-Marie LePen has responded to this situation?
|11.7.05 @ 1:20PM|#
I have to wonder just how terribly violent the rioting is for it to spread to 300 cities, but take this long for a fatality.
|11.7.05 @ 1:27PM|#
Deus ex Machina,
Yes, he wants to institute martial law in the effected areas based
on a law enacted in 1955 to deal with unrest associated with the
war in Algeria. The details of such measures are are pretty
draconian, and they include roadblocks in certain areas, the
breaking up of any unauthorized meetings, and the litany of other
things you would see with martial law. Oh, and harsh prison terms
for anyone who violates these measures. I could keep reading the
Front National's website and tell you more if you'd like.
(BTW, I believe its his daughter tha runs the organization more now
than he does, as he is getting into his dottage.)
|11.7.05 @ 1:28PM|#
Eric the .5b,
There have been a number of very serious injuries, including a bus
driver who was set on fire.
The Wine Commonsewer|11.7.05 @ 1:38PM|#
To apply this term to young human beings and proffer it as a
strategy is a verbally fascist insult and, as a policy proposed by
an Interior Minister, is about as close as one can get to hollering
"ethnic cleansing" without actually saying so
Huh? I'd say cleaning the ghettos of scum is fairly
provocative and an apparently accurate interpretation. That it may
not be perfectly precise is open to interpretation. Or maybe
Ireland has his own agenda.
Hey, they should just let them burn down the entire city. That'll
show them how open minded the Frogs are.
Correct me if I'm wrong here but isn't one of the three fundamental
purposes of government that libertarians accept a system of order
to protect the populace from criminals?
|11.7.05 @ 1:41PM|#
THIS JUST IN:
In the midst of the fighting in the worst of the French riots a
Football (soccer) game broke out.
|11.7.05 @ 1:43PM|#
This would seem to be a problem not made better by the equivalence of ethnicity with national identity in much of the world. We've already had this struggle to an large degree, but we had the advantage of not having an institutionalized ethnicity for American citizenship.
|11.7.05 @ 1:46PM|#
Context of the "a Karcher" remark: "Mr. Ajir, a 29-year-old social worker, lives in La Courneuve, a suburb north of Paris where an 11-year-old boy was killed by a stray bullet earlier this year. During a visit to the projects where the boy was shot, Mr. Sarkozy vowed to clean them with "a Karcher," the brand of a German-made high-powered hose. Some observers say that comment, which got widespread coverage in the French media, planted the seeds of the current violence. (f/Hurry Up Harry)
|11.7.05 @ 1:52PM|#
"Correct me if I'm wrong here but isn't one of the three
fundamental purposes of government that libertarians accept a
system of order to protect the populace from criminals?"
It appears to be Hakluyt's job to correct us all when we are wrong.
I'll praise you for being right and reminding us of what is
fundamental.
The Wine Commonsewer|11.7.05 @ 2:03PM|#
Joe, excellent point about LAPD and Gates. I don't know why they did it, but I watched the LA cops run, on national TV.
The Wine Commonsewer|11.7.05 @ 2:04PM|#
Saw-Whet, I appreciate your comments--why don't you sidle on over to Reason oak bar (second longest oak bar online) and I'll buy you a glass of red.
|11.7.05 @ 2:07PM|#
Building on Eric .5b's comment above, I have to add, it took 12 days of "riots" to get one fatality? There are pick-up basketball games in Detroit with higher body counts!
|11.7.05 @ 2:12PM|#
There is nothing to worry about. The Archduke was pretty much the only casualty of note on July 13th. While this was a horrible thing to have happened, those who are predicting that it is an indicator of far worse things to come are engaging in their usual hyperbole.
|11.7.05 @ 2:14PM|#
I'm gleefully rubbing my hands together because I'm about to get
many libertarian converts to anarchism.
Governments will not be able to do anything about this; just as
they are helpless in the face of Bush's War on Terror.
The only solution is to turn down the heat on the afflicted, not
put a lid on them. Even then, there's going to be a whole lot more
boiling over.
|11.7.05 @ 2:17PM|#
Ruthless,
What do you suggest be done about the rape gangs which prey on
young women in the banlieus? Are the rape gangs also part of this
"afflicted" group?
|11.7.05 @ 2:26PM|#
"Correct me if I'm wrong here but isn't one of the three
fundamental purposes of government that libertarians accept a
system of order to protect the populace from criminals?"
Well, it may reflect a difference between a Hobbesian libertarian
and a Lockeian. The Hobbes types claim that government creates
order and security. The Locke types say that order and security are
created by society, which gives government certain powers to
reflect the fact that they value order and security.
What's happening in France, while tremendously overblown, as well
as what's happening in Iraq, are telling indictments of the belief
that order is imposed by government on an unwilling populace...
|11.7.05 @ 2:30PM|#
quasibill,
Well, Gramsci (the only Marxist who can taken seriously) went into
some detail on how populations are always involved in the
decisional process - no matter how oppressive the system. That is
born out by numerous case studies on the behavior of American
slaves.
|11.7.05 @ 2:31PM|#
quasibill,
I think you gave most of my answer to Hakluyt.
I'd add, progress in society is most impeded by the old Alfonse and
Gaston routine: namely, who goes first. Once we get past the
politeness that government should go first, then peace in society
would flow like a mighty river.
|11.7.05 @ 2:39PM|#
Memo to Le Police:
Mon Dieu! Sorry to see you guys getting hosed for 10 straight days.
That sucks. Then again, have to give Les Leaders time to ponder the
meaning of life and the state of things.
I would however gently suggest a solution from having your ass
handed to you every night by marauding goons who are well on their
way to giving Robespierre a run for his money in the destruction
department.
Right there, on your utility belt... next to the Vin Rouge canteen
and the stale Baguette you use to knock the ner-do-wells upside
their dome piece..
It's called a gun.
You use it. To shoot the person attempting to use their own said
gun to do the same to you.
This concept has been repeated, in various forms, successfully in
areas across the U.S. of A.
Regards,
Vince
|11.7.05 @ 2:42PM|#
fyodor,
For some reason I am reminded of Conquest of the Planet of the
Apes. That the book which spawned all the movies was written
by a Frenchman is also sort of odd.
|11.7.05 @ 2:46PM|#
I have to wonder, how much of the outrage over the "Kärcher" and
"racaille" comments actually comes from the residents of the
ghettos and how much from anti-Sarkozy* commentators? As usual, the
only people with voices, with access to world media, are
comfortably off and not of the group directly affected. In most
ghettos around the world, if I'm not mistaken, ghetto residents are
not only the perpetrators of crime, but also overwhelmingly its
victims, so they are sometimes more more receptive to law-and-order
comments than the limousine liberals who supposedly have their best
interests at heart. OTOH, if you feel that your brothers, sisters,
daughers and sons are being called "scum" or "subhuman", I can
understand the anger.
* Not to be too sceptical, but there are a lot of people out there
who hate Sarkozy because of his other policies, and I don't doubt
that they're always looking for another reason to shoot him down.
One user at my ISP seriously compared Sarkozy to Heinrich Himmler.
I think it's telling that while he's called "fascist", his
opponents can't actually come up with anything he's done
beyond talk tough.
|11.7.05 @ 2:58PM|#
"What do you suggest be done about the rape gangs which prey on
young women in the banlieus? Are the rape gangs also part of this
"afflicted" group?"
Hakluyt,
My point is that I DON'T suggest government do anything. Whatever
you want to do would be fine by me.
Government, unfortunately afflicts us all.
Larry A|11.7.05 @ 3:02PM|#
Correct me if I'm wrong here but isn't one of the three
fundamental purposes of government that libertarians accept a
system of order to protect the populace from criminals?
"We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more
perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic
Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the
general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves
and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for
the United States of America.
|11.7.05 @ 3:02PM|#
"clean" the ghettos of "scum."
Maybe he meant exactly that? I.e. blasting the surfaces of the
buildings clean?
|11.7.05 @ 3:03PM|#
Ruthless,
I guess that's what divides minarchists like myself from anarchists
like yourself. The night watchman duties are always going to be
needed.
|11.7.05 @ 3:14PM|#
I should probably just post the entire song here so people won't
have to ask:
Every time I look down on this timeless town
whether blue or gray be her skies.
Whether loud be her cheers or soft be her tears,
more and more do I realize:
I love Paris in the springtime.
I love Paris in the fall.
I love Paris in the winter when it drizzles,
I love Paris in the summer when it sizzles.
I love Paris every moment,
every moment of the year.
I love Paris, why, oh why do I love Paris?
Because my love is near.
______________________________
I have to agree. :)
J'aime la Ville Lumi�re!
|11.7.05 @ 3:15PM|#
"I guess that's what divides minarchists like myself from
anarchists like yourself."
Be careful drawing too many generalizations about anarchists. I too
believe in night-watchman functions. I just believe private
organizations can handle them more fairly, more efficiently, and
with less threat of mission creep or more accurately, power
creep.
That said, the case of the rapes in the banlieus shows that the
state is usually powerless to protect those who rely on it,
especially when the local society doesn't respect a given natural
right. And now we get the spectacle of a state trying to impose a
vision of order that doesn't comport with the established order in
that society. This can end one of two ways - with the state
surrendering its effort, or with martial law and massive injustice
to many innocents who will be collateral damage in the effort to
eradicate the agitators.
That said, I still think that this whole thing is a "pile of bodies
in the Superdome" kind of story. No story ever seems to put into
context this rash of car burnings, as another poster has pointed
out.
|11.7.05 @ 3:20PM|#
quasibill,
The nightwatchman term generally refers to the "nightwatchman
state."
...that the state is usually powerless to protect those who
rely on it...
No one was realying on the state however.
|11.7.05 @ 3:25PM|#
quasibill,
In other words, until the last few years, when first a book, and
now a series of articles, etc. were written on the subject, the
local population in the balieus policed the issue themselves.
Poorly I might add - blaming the young women for being forcibly
gang-raped by a half a dozen guys.
|11.7.05 @ 3:28PM|#
"The nightwatchman term generally refers to the "nightwatchman
state.""
I know. Doesn't change my point that the same functions can be, and
in the past, have been, provided through non-state actors.
"No one was realying on the state however"
?
Your argument all along has been that the French police failed to
enforce French law in the banlieus. And that the banlieus
themselves did not enforce this one aspect (rape law) in the
absence of the apparatus of the French state. So the only people
who protect these women from the rape were themselves and those who
cared for them. Actually, that's true even when the police are
enforcing the law, but's that's another discussion.
Why did the police stop patrolling the banlieus? Was it because
they didn't see the point, as the society wouldn't cooperate with
them anyway? The current situation seems to reflect a bit of the
wisdom of their decision.
|11.7.05 @ 3:35PM|#
quasibill,
And that the banlieus themselves did not enforce this one
aspect (rape law) in the absence of the apparatus of the French
state.
Well, that is just the most glaring of the problems in these
areas.
Why did the police stop patrolling the banlieus?
Because they didn't give a shit. They re-entered the situation
after many calls for them to do so by the residents of the
banlieus.
|11.7.05 @ 3:36PM|#
quasibill,
So yes, a showdown was likely going to happen sometime or another
the police started to assert their authority in these areas. In
that sense, what is happening was all too predictable and perhaps
necessary.
|11.7.05 @ 3:41PM|#
"They re-entered the situation after many calls for them to do
so by the residents of the banlieus."
My impression was that it was more at the behest of other parts of
France, as they were embarassed/outraged over these occurrences.
But even if it was at the behest of residents of the banlieus, was
it all of them? Some of them? A small minority? A few vocal
symbols?
"Because they didn't give a shit."
While I often hammer the police, I'm not sure that this is an
accurate reflection of their flaws. Usually, they cloak themselves
in self-righteousness. Even racism plays itself into a desire to
punish the object, as opposed to neglect.
I can't say that you're wrong, but it doesn't fit my experience
with police.
|11.7.05 @ 3:41PM|#
So the immigrants in France don't like the way they are being treated. I have a simple advice -- go home. BTW, I am an immigrant in this country and know all about trying to strike roots in a new place .
|11.7.05 @ 3:47PM|#
So the immigrants in France don't like the way they are
being treated.
These are the children and in some cases the
grandchildren of immigrants. There is no "home" to "go
home" to. They are supposed to have all the rights of French
citizenship. For various reasons (many of which have been discussed
here or in links) they have failed to assimilate or be assimilated
into the culture (something the french take very seriously).
|11.7.05 @ 3:54PM|#
quasibill,
A number of local women's groups were fairly instrumental in
getting the police to act.
Yes, neglect and apathy fairly well describe the attitude of the
police.
Yuri,
These are second and third generation Frenchmen. If they went to
the homelands of their parents or grandparents they'd find the
places more alien than they find France.
|11.7.05 @ 3:58PM|#
And "racaille" is infinitely more pejorative than "scum" to
French-speakers -- it has the flavor of characterizing an entire
group of people as subhuman, inherently evil and criminal,
worthless...
...a characterisation that certain members of the group seem
hellbent to live up to.
- Josh
|11.7.05 @ 4:13PM|#
"As I recall, ~50-60 people died in the L.A. riots."
Yes, the L.A.F.D.
estimates 58 deaths for the 1992 riots and 2,283 injuries (228
critical).
I'm not sure what your point was though, since my comment about the
body count in a Detroit pick-up basketball game was
tongue-in-cheek.
R C Dean|11.7.05 @ 4:25PM|#
I dunno why, but anyone who uses a phrase like "a verbally
fascist insult" creates instant suspicion in me. What the hell is
that supposed to mean? It made me wonder what Ireland's agenda was
- it sounds soft-headed lefty to me.
Why is it that whenever we get these little stateless microcosms,
these no-go zones for cops, like Nuevo Laredo and now the French
banleius, they always seem to go to shit? And somehow, the
deplorable social conditions that result from the absence of even a
nightwatchman state are, to the anarchists among us, even more
proof of the wonderfulness of anarchy?
Jesse Walker|11.7.05 @ 4:33PM|#
I dunno, R.C. Why do you describe a Mexican city where police
are ubiquitous but deeply corrupt as a "no-go zone for cops"? Or
French welfare suburbs dominated by enormous public housing
complexes as "the absence of even a nightwatchman state"?
Ireland is firmly leftist. He can be a pretty sharp writer, too. I
think he makes a good point about the way Sarkozy's comments fanned
the flames of the riots.
|11.7.05 @ 4:40PM|#
Ooh! Ooh! I can answer the second one!
Because building housing towers has absolutely nothing to do with
the concept of a "night watchman state."
What do I win?
|11.7.05 @ 4:51PM|#
Can someone clarify on the significance of rape in the banlieu? Are there a lot? Recently? Always?
Jesse Walker|11.7.05 @ 5:09PM|#
Joe: He said it wasn't "even" a nightwatchman state. Meaning, it didn't even have minimal government.
fyodor|11.7.05 @ 5:18PM|#
I thought the original beef was that cops gratuitously harrassed the youth of these areas, resulting in the electrocution deaths of the two kids fleeing the cops? Now, that doesn't contradict the possibility that the police neglected their legitimate duties in the same areas, but I would think it would contradict the notion that they had no presence there.
|11.7.05 @ 5:19PM|#
I have to agree that Sarkozy "fanned the flames," but big
fucking deal!
Oh, boo hoo ... boo hoo hoo hoo ... I'm a lame-assed little boy, so
when someone calls me names I burn my banlieu down. Boo
hoo...
What fucking pussies. I say to hell with them. Kill them all and
let Allah sort them out. (And no, I don't mean kill all of the
people in the banlieus, just he violent rioters. You know, the
anal-raping, disabled-women burning fuckwads.)
Jeez, as a libertarian living in SF, I've been called far, far
worse.
|11.7.05 @ 5:42PM|#
Where are the rich, white areas of LA?
Hmmm... off the top of my head... Bel-Air. Hollywood Hills.
Brentwood. Pacific Palisades. I'm sure there's others.
|11.7.05 @ 5:48PM|#
I think he makes a good point about the way Sarkozy's
comments fanned the flames of the riots.
I'm still wondering if Sarkozy's comment was "misunderstood" to be
referring to the people rather than the dilapidated buildings. I'm
having a hard time believing any politician in power in modern
France would say something that is otherwise so clearly offensive.
'Cos I thought Europe was all PC 'n' stuff.
|11.7.05 @ 5:59PM|#
Did the LAPD hide behind the gates of Bel Air? ...I don't
remember that. I remember them being right in the thick of
it, but I remember them standing by and watching looters for the
first day or two.
When you think of a rich, white neighborhood, do you
picture Hollywood Hills and Brentwood, or something more like Santa
Clarita?
|11.7.05 @ 6:16PM|#
It's interesting that there seems to be very little use of
force employed in containing (well, the feeble attempt to contain)
the riots.
The French government was waiting for their surrender to be
finalized before they realized that this was no invasion, it was a
riot being perpetrated by their own people. Almost a week was lost,
just trying to figure out who they were going to surrender
to.
HAA! I kill me. Here come the responses. But it was worth it.
Ron Hardin|11.7.05 @ 6:19PM|#
``And "racaille" is infinitely more pejorative than "scum" to
has the flavor of characterizing an entire group of people as
subhuman, inherently evil and criminal, worthless...''
English is much better for insults. Alas they hardly teach them any
longer in school. Fortunately it's automated
$ insult 20
You ill-proportioned glass of pestilential anole foam
You heartrending drinking horn of malignant honker rags
You base e´tui of unsalutary aardvark sweepings
You beastly pocketbook of hydropic snow goose jakes
You grinding eggcup of ulcerated spring frog ejection
You hateful cone of hypertensive American quarter horse
disgorgement
You unhandsome game bag of scrofulous partridge diaphoresis
You irritating kit bag of soiled sea cow expectoration
You graceless cream pitcher of ulcerous giant ground sloth
ejectamenta
You worrisome sauce boat of malarial bluebill piss
You dislikable drum of tabid Croton bug dingleberry
You rotten crock of innutritious Rocky Mountain goat squirt
You comfortless magazine of unhygenic stickleback urine
You obnoxious tankard of plagued speckled trout purulence
You fetid firkin of scabietic tragopan ptyalism
You vexing splint basket of loose-moraled wren-tit vomition
You tormenting broiler of consumptive jay scoria
You bleak jeroboam of insalubrious beaded lizard fart
You disfigured stomach of rickety bobwhite smut
You ill-favored cuspidor of poisoned Duroc night soil
In fact, a unix archive of the C program is at
http://rhhardin.home.mindspring.com/insult.txt
|11.7.05 @ 6:23PM|#
fyodor,
Until the past few years the police didn't police in any
significant way the banlieus (note that the term in French simply
means "suburb" - but it has come to mean the ethnic slums that tend
to surround the major cities - also note that the banlieus tend to
be made up of two areas: the newer, government constructed block
buildings and the older parts of town, with the former being the
ethnic slums).
SR,
I was just making a factual statement and that is all.
Jesse Walker,
Or French welfare suburbs dominated by enormous public housing
complexes as "the absence of even a nightwatchman
state"?
Its a rather odd combination of the government both neglecting and
supporting the same area depending on the type of "service"
involved.
|11.7.05 @ 8:16PM|#
Dang, I thought those Algerians would abandon the violence they
practiced at home and take to wine tasting with their French
compatriots. I got it, we gotta assimilate them! C'mon, they're
only lashing out because they haven't assimilated. All that violent
history will dissolve into love of cheese, champaign, and ze
French. I mean, if I thought otherwise, I'd have to repudiate my
dogma of open borders, and I sure wouldn't want to do that.
Narrowly missed that one.
I'm an orthodox Jew. I know plenty of Jews radically different from
mainstream American culture. Same for the Amish. And yet they
aren't burning cars on the street and tormenting old women. The
whole assimilation argument is flat out bullshit, an excuse. Why
should any country take the risk of increased violence, in its
hopes to "assimilate" their new immigrants? There are plenty of
both fine and rotten immigrants. Clearly, there are costs incurred
in not selecting (or at least trying to) the better among them. One
need not "assimilate" to be beneficial to society. Besides, exactly
how do you plan to assimilate them in a minimal state? Any attempt
at doing so, like the forced adoption of certain cultural mores,
violates principles of libertarianism (I'm libertarian, but I think
there should be open immigration for the highly skilled, and
restricted or closed for the unskilled). I don't blame Islam. For
all I know, Islam (or their conception of it) is just a reflection,
a product, of their violent manner. Nature or nurture, I don't know
(you could try to elicit the answer from adoption studies).
Locke and Hobbes were both right. Without government, some
societies descend into a Hobbesian state, while others ascend into
Locke's. I thank God that I live in America, a largely Lockean
state, save for those occasional riots. (I live in one of the "rich
white" parts of L.A., westwood.)
|11.7.05 @ 8:18PM|#
well someone has to say it (true or not). Even if it is just for
spite.
I am sure glad the US, unlike France, choose to fight terrorists in
Iraq rather then here at home. :)
Jesse Walker|11.7.05 @ 9:30PM|#
I didn't realize it was un-libertarian to think racism and
poverty had an effect on people. Especially when the most relevant
racists work for the government's police force, and when the
poverty is exacerbated by labor laws and tied up with an extensive
welfare state.
Obviously it isn't "all" about racism and poverty. But who said it
was?
|11.7.05 @ 10:02PM|#
Well at least he didn't say that their mothers were hamsters and their fathers smelt of elderberries...
|11.8.05 @ 7:28AM|#
"And somehow, the deplorable social conditions that result from
the absence of even a nightwatchman state are, to the anarchists
among us, even more proof of the wonderfulness of anarchy?"
No, the deplorable violence and riots that occur when a state tries
to assert its form of order over a naturally established or
traditional order is an example of why states are the cause of most
problems, not the answer.
As Hak has noted, the French state was pretty much not present in
the banlieus for years. And you didn't see mass riots, or raging
gun battles, etc. Yes, the rights of women weren't respected, and
that was awful - but guess what? That's a reflection of their
current culture. Not too long ago - the 1960s, at least - American
culture wasn't too different. Heck, even now, someone who gets
convicted of dealing crack gets a longer prison sentence than most
rapists.
So what does the Paris "riot" show us? First, that you can't count
on the state to protect you - unless you're arguing that somehow
the police did protect those rape victims. Note that this is true
even outside "police no-go zones." Second, that imposing "order"
through the state that is in conflict with an established or
traditional order will always result in social unrest and will
require draconian responses that will violate the rights of
innocents as much, if not more than, the problem that was intended
to be solved. Finally, the Hobbesian myth that in the absence of
government, man turns into animals and randomly kills, rapes, and
robs his neighbor is false - the French state wasn't involved for
years, and the worst that happened was that they let some boys get
away with gang rape (not to downplay how awful that is, but we're
talking large picture here - One could point to the OJ and MJ
trials and make certain comparisons, in that regard.) A natural
order evolved, with self-enforcing social norms. No state was
necessary to enforce "order."
Smart Torontonian|11.8.05 @ 8:33AM|#
How about why libertarians are all going on about how this riot is due to French racism and neoliberalism?
|11.8.05 @ 9:13AM|#
'Cos I thought Europe was all PC 'n' stuff.
That seems to be a popular myth here in the USA. However it lacks
any factual basis.
|11.8.05 @ 9:59AM|#
A number of myths have been blown here. But chief is the myth of
French racial tolerance.
Since at least WWI France has had a reputation as a haven for
American blacks. From musicians like Sidney Bechet and Louis
Armstrong who appreciated the reception they got to "refugees" like
writer James Baldwin and singer Nina Simone who moved there to
"escape" American racism people have gotten the impression that
France is a paradise of racial harmony.
It is one thing to welcome and be intrigued and entertained by
performers and intellectuals (the myth of the noble savage
originated in France too) but now these regular folks, these
factory workers and domestics from Africa showed up and had none of
the mystique or polish of American jazz musicians or the dash of
the WWI soldiers with whom the French were so taken in 1917-8. And
they were here permanently, they weren't visitors, they weren't
"going home".
None of this is intended to excuse the rioters, it is merely to
observe that the curtain has been drawn back and that an
exceedingly ugly side of French life has been exposed.
Everyone recognizes that reforms are called for. The most obvious,
to us any way, is the need to liberalize labor laws to enable these
youths to enter the labor force. Listening to the politicians I get
the impression that that won't happen.
More likely there will be more spending programs and some phony
"multi-culturalism" and affirmative action programs.
Jesse Walker|11.8.05 @ 10:21AM|#
I don't think that Le Scum's comment was about racism and
poverty having no effect on people. I think his (her?) point was
that these things are no excuse for the behavior of the
rioters.
But who's making excuses? There's a lot of comments here, and maybe
I missed one, but I don't think anyone has declared that racism,
poverty, or anything else justifies arson or assault. I've seem
commenters express sympathy for people trapped in a bad situation,
but not for this violent response to it.
gaius marius|11.8.05 @ 10:41AM|#
But we certainly have a pivot point here, one where the
ruling elite's inefficacy and ineptness is being laid crudely bare
for all the world to see.
utterly. this is merely a symptom of a much larger degeneration
among western civilization -- the riots in france could and in fact
have happened in every western nation. bankrupt elites ensconsed in
bunkers clinging to power where their actions merit no moral
alleigance; fractured suspicious masses consisting of a multiculti
patchwork of aggrieved proletariats.
the responses out of de villepin and sarkozy have both exposed the
willingness of the management class to amorally disembowel entire
classes of their citizenry to hold onto a control the merit of
which they abdicate by their very words. and the things they're
saying are the same words i'd expect out of any american or british
management figure just the same.
Everyone recognizes that reforms are called for. The most obvious,
to us any way, is the need to liberalize labor laws to enable these
youths to enter the labor force. Listening to the politicians I get
the impression that that won't happen.
having diagnosed the problem as one of an inability of the west to
any longer culturally assimilate immigrants -- even after two
frecnh-born generations -- thanks to advancing cultural bankruptcy,
i posit that this has almost no chance of mitigating the problem.
better economic management might assuage a symptom -- but that's
all it does.
in the end, even if successful on some level, these jobless
immigrants would be only employed immigrants -- still segregated
from a french social polity that views them as unfrench, still
separatist in fear of becoming like the decadent westerners.
did the civil rights movement assimilate african-americans into the
western mainstream? obviously not -- african-american culture is
more defiant and distinctive by its differences than ever. this is
because the granting of civil rights is only management of the
symptoms of a core problem that runs much deeper.
|11.8.05 @ 10:53AM|#
"bankrupt elites ensconsed in bunkers clinging to power where
their actions merit no moral alleigance; fractured suspicious
masses consisting of a multiculti patchwork of aggrieved
proletariats."
Bravo! What ever happened to "consent of the governed?"
The government has an affirmative duty to go out and seek that
consent, day in and day out. They haven't been doing that in France
(and in a lot of other places). They've been behaving as if the
have a divine right to rule these people, and expecting them to
accept their rightful place within the divinely-ordered system, and
this is what happens.
gaius marius|11.8.05 @ 10:56AM|#
if these folks have been left to their own devices and this
is the result, oh yeah, anarchism is EXACTLY the mess of human
stupidity I would expect it to be
anarchism, in the end, is only the utopian impulse to total
emancipation from any cultural responsibility. the de facto
independence of these ghettos has encouraged their sense of
cultural independence in a nation where a vision of french cultural
distinctiveness, value and uniformity is a high priority. this was
bound to be the root of oppression and violence, and so it is. the
same could be said of any ghetto.
as such, i agree that anarchism -- the dissolution of civilization
-- while perhaps inevitable in time, is not a goal to be worked
toward. however, neither is draconian management by a discredited
elite clinging to power by any means necessary.
france is, like all western nations now, in dire danger of a
devolution into outright tyranny as the management takes any and
all steps to retain power. but what one must work for is a moral
solution for these aggrieved people -- a way to make them feel at
home in france, to make them feel french, not as muslims
proletarians who happen to be in but not of france -- reconciling
their goals with those of western elites and bourgeiosie in a new
social compact under law.
such a solution would have to entail changes which may not be
possible in our ossified society, but are necessary nonetheless to
avoid a regrettable future.
|11.8.05 @ 10:59AM|#
Though I disagree with your depiction of de Vellepin and Sarkozy
as belonging to "the management class." They belong to the
political class, which is something else entirely.
I also disagree with your assertion that better economic
integration wouldn't overcome cultural segregation. It has always
overcome cultural antipathy. People don't come together by having
touchy feely conversations about the need to come together; they
come together by standing shoulder to shoulder as they work
together.
gaius marius|11.8.05 @ 11:31AM|#
The government has an affirmative duty to go out and seek
that consent, day in and day out.
this, however, mr joe, is not enough. the proletariats have to
grant it. and what chance is there of that under the current
compact? these peoples within the people *fear* becoming
westernized -- they work actively against it.
i have, for example, a large number of indian friends who, though
they work technological jobs here in chicago, seek arranged
marriages in india, frequently traveling back and forth to maintain
a cultural home there while living here. many of them resent as
many or more aspects of the westernization of their lives here and
of india as they like. what new compact would absolve them of this
fear and loathing of the west and being western?
the response to this immisicible oil-and-water society is usually
the final abdication of any culture at all -- as the romans did in
advancing hellenic dessication, simply allowing anyone to be
anything they were with little or no assimilation within a morally
and culturally vacuous economic and political construct. this is a
step beyond france that has been taken in the united states most
noticably.
the response isn't a solution, of course, so much as a deferral of
dissolution punctuated by ever more common periods of civil strife.
so we need to find a different way if our civilization is to avoid
the fate of rome.
gaius marius|11.8.05 @ 11:42AM|#
They belong to the political class, which is something else
entirely.
servants of the management class, in the end, which in the west is
now no longer noble but bourgeois. their words represent the
reaction of a fearful commerical class.
It has always overcome cultural antipathy.
"always" is a really inclusive word, mr joe. :) i'd point out the
example of my indian and east asian friends here who are as
economically priviledged as we are, and yet many of whom feel
little or no cultural affinity for the west -- in some cases,
active antipathy.
gaius marius|11.8.05 @ 11:53AM|#
one might also point out the rather more touchy case of an osama bin laden -- a child of western priviledge if ever there was one. it isn't as mystifying as it might seem that so many of the 9/11 hijackers were educated in western universities and decided to forego lives of economic access in the west to act on their hatred of postmodern western culture. terry mcdermott's research paints a rather detailed picture of middleclassmen harboring a deep spiritual conflict regarding their potential position as members of a westernized intelligensia adhering to what they ultimately saw as a cultural betrayal.
dhex|11.8.05 @ 12:24PM|#
put into those terms, this is indeed an intractable
problem.
however...i cannot help but think of the fate of the irish catholic
populations of the united states, pre and post civil war. perhaps
what new immigrants need is another group to look down upon?
gaius marius|11.8.05 @ 1:15PM|#
the fate of the irish catholic populations of the united
states, pre and post civil war
i agree, mr dhex -- proletarians *can* be assimilated under the
proper conditions. but with respect to the american irish: how
assimilated are they? it varies by person of course, but here in
chicago there is a very strong irish nationalist sentiment that has
never disappeared. some neighborhoods are still defiantly irish
villages in an american landscape. politicians can't really be
elected there without being irish.
and i'd argue, like you, that they are a relative success story.
later immigrants show far fewer signs of assimilation.
and i would further argue that the penalties of a refusal to
assimilate have gone by the boards, removing a lot of pressure from
the management class simply because the management class came to
the conclusion in the 19th c that the application of pressure in
favor of an american identity was a recipe for disaster. this is
where america parted company from france.
this was easier to give up in english america because the sense of
a longstanding cultural identity was not a prominent feature of our
society -- a fact that makes america, like germany or italy, more
susceptible to excessive identity crises invented from insecurity
in the form of virulent nationalism.
|11.8.05 @ 1:35PM|#
gaius marius,
Anyone pontificating on French politicians should get a good idea
about how they are trained, especially those in the top echelons of
French society. Nearly all of them go to the same "Grand
Ecole."
joe,
You wouldn't know what France's political class looked like if it
were presented to you on a platter.
dhex|11.8.05 @ 2:06PM|#
gaius:
"but with respect to the american irish: how assimilated are
they?"
deeply. hell, they let their daughters marry prods (or worse, me!)
and everything.
more importantly, outside of one or two enclaves, it is essentially
an non-issue outside of how much one drinks on st. patrick's day
(or, 15 years ago, how much one would drop when the hat was
passed). that's a huge change from 150 years ago, or even just 100
years ago, having heard the stories from my family, most of whom
were both as american-irish and proletarian as one can get (i'm the
first college educated male in my entire family's history, etc)
gaius marius|11.8.05 @ 2:20PM|#
Nearly all of them go to the same "Grand Ecole."
that's exactly as i understand it, gg -- the french equivalent of
ivy league skull & bones. :)
|11.8.05 @ 4:32PM|#
French reaction to invasion or riots:
Level 1: Run
Level 2: Hide
Level 3: Surrender
This has been consistent over the past 100 years.
|11.8.05 @ 5:39PM|#
Murphy,
Yes, that explains WWI; not. This year is 2005. One hundred years
ago was 1905. WWI was between 1914-1918. Honestly, the fact that
people have the notion that WWII is the length and breadth of
French martial history just astounds me.
|11.8.05 @ 5:40PM|#
gaius marius,
A common insult for a graduate of the most exclusive "Grand Ecoles"
is to call them "Bonapartes" or "Emporers." :)
|11.8.05 @ 6:09PM|#
Hakluyt at November 8, 2005 05:39 PM
There are so many things to legitimately criticize about the
French. Perhaps, like me, you find it a shame that people persist
with these silly myths?
|11.8.05 @ 6:27PM|#
Isaac Bertram,
The sort of hyperbole Murphy engages in distracts from a legitimate
discussion of the topic.
Yes, even an individual like me, whose blood practically runs with
the waters of the Seine, sees lots to criticize about France.
|11.8.05 @ 8:48PM|#
gaius,
1) If the existing compact isn't sufficient to gain their consent,
the compact needs to be changed. That's part of going out and
seeking their consent.
2)Your Indian friends may well live and think as you describe. Do
you really think their American-born children will?
3)You would do well to distinguish between structural assimilation
and cultural assimilation. In a multicultural community like the
US, it is possible to have the former without the latter - like
your Chicago Irish example. I'll point out that they aren't rioting
as the North African yoots in France, so what's the problem?
|11.9.05 @ 5:58AM|#
Donug Ireland's take on 'racaille' is actualy unadequate.
Racaille is an old french word, meaning scums indeed, revived for a
few years in the 'banlieux' by the young themselves, sometimes as a
badge of honor, sometimes also in a slang 'verlan' version
'caillera'. So, it's indeed,a heavily charged word, but in a
different way. When Sarkozy used it, it echoes to a lot of people
in those 'banlieux'.
What's also lacking is the context. Sarkozy was visiting
Argenteuil, a suburb of Paris, and stones and others objects were
thrown at him. A woman, from a first floor flat shouted at him ;'
when will you get rid of this 'racaile'. And he respond 'you want
to get rid of the racaille ? We'll get you rid of it'. He was
actualy answering, on the pot, with the own words of the woman. Not
that such an expression is a surprise in his mouth...
gaius marius|11.9.05 @ 9:58AM|#
Do you really think their American-born children will?
they ARE the american-born children, mr joe.
structural assimilation and cultural assimilation
yields a
multicultural community
which is in fact not truly a community at all, but a patchwork
quilt of communities that live in a mutual suspicion, latent though
it may be, which fractures easily under stress.
I'll point out that they aren't rioting as the North African yoots
in France, so what's the problem?
we assume the best case will always exist because that is what
we've had for the last 30 years -- but it won't always be so.
what's going on in france should be a reminder to all western
nations that we are barely held together, multiculturally speaking,
and can come to violence under the slightest pretext. and in that
event, the divisions that we've downplayed for decades will
manifest themselves with a vengeance. that's a lesson of history,
imo.
Daleth Carey Hall|11.12.05 @ 1:39PM|#
People are blowing this way out of proportion--I mean, these "riots" so far have killed one (1) person and destroyed about 7000 cars; compare that to the LA riots in 1992, which, in the space of three days, killed 55 people and caused $1 billion in property damage. I can't help but think a lot of the urge to blow it out of proportion comes from (1) the wacked-out anti-French sentiment of the last few years (i.e., nutjob conservatives hating France because they refused to invade Iraq); (2) complete ignorance about France; and (3) the desire to avoid thinking about our own problems here in the US--any opportunity to focus on someone else's problems is welcome.
Daleth Carey Hall|11.12.05 @ 1:40PM|#
PS, for a different perspective on the French riots, click on my name to visit the part of my blog that's dedicated to the riots...
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