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Truth Hurts (Ann Coulter Unintentionally Persuasive Edition)
Ann Coulter, speaking at a "Ronald Reagan Black Tie and Blue Jeans BBQ," makes quite possibly the best argument ever made for repealing the First Amendment:
"They're always accusing us of repressing their speech," she said. "I say let's do it. Let's repress them."
She later added, "Frankly, I'm not a big fan of the First Amendment."
Her statements received applause, and many attendees said they enjoyed her speech, but some added that they think she's somewhat extreme.
"She's not very subtle, but I always enjoy her talks," Republican Senate candidate Travis Horn said. "They're very hard hitting, but the truth hurts."
Whole thing here. Sara Rimensnyder explored Coulter's "perverse appeal" here.
|10.25.05 @ 12:30PM|#
And this 'truth' is?
This is the money quote from the article:
Black enjoyed Coulter's speech, and said she felt special when
Coulter called UF Republicans "beautiful" at the beginning of her
speech.
Its all about identity politics.
Jeff P.|10.25.05 @ 12:33PM|#
It's only fair. I've long said that Christians should experience
some real prosecution, as opposed to the mild dissent that sends
them into a tizzy these days.
I didn't read the response, but was she reminded that the First
allows her to bash Bush as relentlessly as she has since the Miers
nom?
Dave W.|10.25.05 @ 12:35PM|#
Best singer the Buggles ever had. Wish he could have gotten along with AON for a bit longer in the 80s.
|10.25.05 @ 12:47PM|#
She needs a televised, open-mouth kiss from Madonna. Straightened Britney Spears right out.
|10.25.05 @ 12:51PM|#
The first amendment is way overblown. All scholars of note agree
that it was only written to warm up to the second amendment, which
truly rocks.
I say get rid of the first amendment. That way, the second becomes
#1! Isn't that cool? And if the government comes to the door to
arrest you for speaking out against the theocracy, at least you'll
be pack'n.
|10.25.05 @ 12:54PM|#
Wish he could have gotten along with AON for a bit longer in
the 80s.
Wish he could have gotten along with Yes for a bit longer before
that--Drama was one of the best Yes albums.
As to Ms. Coulter, I'm increasingly disturbed by her appearance
(check the photo in the linked article). And I'm not being
sarcastic or snarky here. She really really looks like she suffers
from an eating disorder. Even just a few years ago, she looked much
healthier. As to her commentary, eh, she's good at annoying certain
people and making money off of it. More power to her.
Dave W.|10.25.05 @ 1:00PM|#
I have wanted to buy Drama for many years now (I was real late to the Yes party). It is surprisingly hard to find through casual shopping.
|10.25.05 @ 1:01PM|#
CrisO:
Something's going on with these once-hot female celebrities turning
into skeletors. It's happening more and more.
Those of you who are old enough: remember in the 70s where
emaciated rock stars, including Eric Clapton and George Harrison,
started wearing those mysterious "skull rings"?
I think there's a connection..
|10.25.05 @ 1:07PM|#
All the more reason why I don't hold out much hope for America
surviving much longer. Sooner or later, it's all going to come
crashing down around us and Democrats and Republicans alike will be
out in force looking to kill one another. The petty, irrational
hatred that the Left and Right has toward one another will consume
this contry, ruining all that has been built, and probably killing
a lot of innocent people in the process.
People like Coulter won't be directly to blame since this
collective rage has been boiling under a failing facade of
"civility" for far too long. However, while the American people
will be at fault for the fall of our country, it will be prods like
Coulter who stir up this hornet's nest of mindless anger, and there
is nothing we can do to shut her up. Freedom of speech, the very
thing she and her conservative followers eschew, applies even to
rabble rousers like her.
|10.25.05 @ 1:08PM|#
>She needs a televised, open-mouth kiss from Madonna.
Straightened Britney Spears right out.
heehee
|10.25.05 @ 1:10PM|#
I have wanted to buy Drama for many years now (I was real
late to the Yes party). It is surprisingly hard to find through
casual shopping.
Any larger music retailer should carry it--it's worth getting. It
was included in the recent series of Yes remastered reissues on
Rhino/Warner, and now includes demos, most of which were recorded
before the Buggles joined/were co-opted into Yes (they shared
management, and 'just happened' to be recording at the same studio
as the currently singerless/keyboardless Yes--their manager was
infamous for pulling such crap).
Some of those demos are from the "Paris Sessions" recorded just
before Jon Anderson and Rick Wakeman left the band--they are so
incredibly bad, that you can really hear how desperately Yes needed
the infusion of life that the Buggles brought to the band.
|10.25.05 @ 1:12PM|#
I have wanted to buy Drama for many years now (I was real
late to the Yes party). It is surprisingly hard to find through
casual shopping.
Any larger music retailer should carry it--it's worth getting. It
was included in the recent series of Yes remastered reissues on
Rhino/Warner, and now includes demos, most of which were recorded
before the Buggles joined/were co-opted into Yes (they shared
management, and 'just happened' to be recording at the same studio
as the currently singerless/keyboardless Yes--their manager was
infamous for pulling such crap).
Some of those demos are from the "Paris Sessions" recorded just
before Jon Anderson and Rick Wakeman left the band--they are so
incredibly bad, that you can really hear how desperately Yes needed
the infusion of life that the Buggles brought to the band.
|10.25.05 @ 1:13PM|#
Apparently nobody here can recognize sarcasm anymore. Jesus
Christ, Coulter can be as offensive as anyone else, but anyone
misinterpreting what she is saying here as serious needs either a)
to get a reality check, or b) to take a vacation from
reason. From Ann's book "How to Talk to a Liberal" (all
quotes taken from this
site:
"(L)et's say I don't care about my country, politics, or civil
affairs. All I want to do is make porno movies. I could spend a
million dollars producing speech of the Debbie Does Dallas variety.
But if I want to engage in speech of the "Vote Against Chris Shays"
variety, I can only spend $2000. It is easier to pander obscenity
in this country than it is to engage in core First Amendment
speech." -- P. 332
"My argument is that the First Amendment doesn't just apply to
working journalists. The First Amendment protects speech that is
robust, wide open, etc. etc., and not just speech that is robust,
wide open, etc., as between competing newspapers (like the Post and
the Times). The First Amendment refers to 'the people,' not to 'the
newspaper editors.'" -- P. 335
Sounds like someone who wants an expansion of First Amendment
rights, not the caricature portayed by Ms. Howling. Ann can make
enough of a caricature of herself without needless distortion.
|10.25.05 @ 1:15PM|#
Has it occurred to anyone that Coulter may be a jaded,
nihilistic leftist who's just having fun toying with the
right?
Reductio ad absurdum, anyone?
|10.25.05 @ 1:17PM|#
Something's going on with these once-hot female celebrities
turning into skeletors. It's happening more and more.
True, but most of them are of the Hollywood actress variety.
Jennifer Connolly is the one that comes to mind for me. She went
from off-the-charts hotness to skeletor fairly quickly. But
actors/actresses are usually nothing more than an attractive bundle
of neuroses, so it's understandable. Political commentators, on the
other hand, you don't expect it so much.
Those of you who are old enough: remember in the 70s where
emaciated rock stars, including Eric Clapton and George Harrison,
started wearing those mysterious "skull rings"? I think there's a
connection..
Heroin? C'mon, a conservative commentator would never do anything
illegal...
Dave W.|10.25.05 @ 1:21PM|#
That sounds fascinating. I got Time and a Word at the Rhino store in LA a couple years back. Shoulda gotten more of them. Sounds like fascinating demo's. I had no idea.
|10.25.05 @ 1:22PM|#
Lord Duppy-
You mean that maybe Coulter is doing an Alan Sokal imitation?
If she was, don't you think she would have revealed the prank and
switched sides by now?
|10.25.05 @ 1:25PM|#
SR
Ann Coulter + baseball bat to face = quality
entertainment
Wow. Rimensnyder was right.
|10.25.05 @ 1:28PM|#
That sounds fascinating. I got Time and a Word at the Rhino
store in LA a couple years back. Shoulda gotten more of them.
Sounds like fascinating demo's. I had no idea.
Fascinating, yes. Something you'd listen to often, no. I haven't
gotten that reissue yet for that very reason. I've heard the demo
stuff on bootlegs before, and I prefer to just listen to the
finished album most of the time, rather than suffering through the
process that led up to it. I wish they had put the demos on a
separate disc. Interestingly, they didn't include demos of the
material that the Buggles brought to the band. One of those Trevor
Horn songs, "We Can Fly From Here," was not recorded for Drama but
was played by Yes on that tour (and now appears on the new Yes live
boxed set)--it's actually better than most of what did appear on
Drama.
By the way, speaking of Time and a Word, years ago I got to know
Peter Banks (the guitarist on that album) pretty well. He had some
stories to tell--Yes may be full of happy-happy la-la-la crap in
the lyrics, but believe me, Yes the business organization is
anything but.
gaius marius|10.25.05 @ 1:28PM|#
All the more reason why I don't hold out much hope for
America surviving much longer.
amen, mr mackenzie. i'd submit to you that america has already
essentially completed the short journey from democracy to empire
over the last sixty years. this administration is just the latest
mortal blow.
as it becomes obvious to all that only one office dispenses all the
power of the american global empire, competition for it won't be
risked on trivialities like rights and elections.
|10.25.05 @ 1:28PM|#
Black said. "She's a little raw, but I think she balances
the left's Michael Moore."
She's definitely gonna have to put on a few more pounds to balance
out Micheal Moore on any scale.
gaius marius|10.25.05 @ 1:33PM|#
Apparently nobody here can recognize sarcasm anymore.
i might be inclined to agree about coulter herself, mr jf, who's
just trying to make money on the rage of others. unfortunately,
there is the matter of all the enraged people she's talking
to.
Her statements received applause, and many attendees said they
enjoyed her speech, but some added that they think she's somewhat
extreme.
that doesn't exactly ring of critical assimilation of high satire.
most of these folks don't think of swift or juvenal when they're
listening to coulter. they, like most people, not being very smart,
think that the truth hurts.
|10.25.05 @ 1:36PM|#
The petty, irrational hatred that the Left and Right has
toward one another will consume this contry, ruining all that has
been built, and probably killing a lot of innocent people in the
process.
Don't go all apocalyptic on us, Akira. Politics in the USA would be
a lot healthier if more people were willing to stop being PC and
mealy-mouthed and say what they really mean. If politicians would
do more of this, there would be less of a need for the commentariat
to act as a surrogate. Our politics have become staid and
motionless.
Also, look at our history. Politics was WAY more of a bloodsport in
prior eras than it is now. And commentary may not have been as
in-your-face as what folks like Coulter and Carville do today, but
it was often more vicious in a more subtle way.
|10.25.05 @ 1:37PM|#
"Wow. Rimensnyder was right."
You seem to be presuming that I'm advocating hitting Coulter with
the bat.
|10.25.05 @ 1:39PM|#
gaius:
You are a better judge of the character of an audience than I am. I
suppose African-Americans who laugh at "kill whitey" jokes at
comedy shows are irredeemable racists who are going to stick a shiv
in my back at the first opportunity.
|10.25.05 @ 1:55PM|#
Coulter's not worth a lot of discussion, no matter where on the
aisle you sit, but I do wonder how trustworthy the source is. Not
to disparage Gainesville's best paper, but the Independent
Florida Alligator is a student publication with (usually)
leftwards leanings. I can just see a student writer getting a
little too gleeful about a gotcha comment taken out of context. Not
that I'm defending Coulter, who doesn't seem to worry much about
what comes out of her mouth.
Oh, and Go Gators, for the record (I owe the school that after
insulting my alma mater's student paper).
|10.25.05 @ 2:08PM|#
If a man shuns some of the Amendments he's being assertive but if a woman does it she's a bitch.
gaius marius|10.25.05 @ 2:18PM|#
African-Americans who laugh at "kill whitey" jokes at comedy
shows ... are going to stick a shiv in my back at the first
opportunity.
many would sincerely love to, mr jf, and don't only out of fear for
their immortal soul. and can you blame them? i can't; indeed, i
rather thank them for their forbearance in light of events as
recent as katrina.
i think you underestimate the deep, irretrievable resentment that a
vast majority of african-americans (rightfully, imo) have of an
american political system and management class that has done a very
great deal to isolate, humiliate and repress them as a proletariat.
some simple humor, fwiw, can only be a temporary assuagement of
that grievance.
Robert Cote|10.25.05 @ 2:26PM|#
It was 1729 when Jonathan Swift made his "Modest Proposal" and still people don't get it. Look at the responses; baseball bats to her face for entertainment purposes, calls to shut her up, remove her right to vote, degradation of her appearance. She's smiling in the photo because she's too rich, too thin and she's laughing at YOU.
|10.25.05 @ 2:32PM|#
Al Franken said on David Letterman last night that Karl Rove and Dick Chaney should be executed. Everyone seemed to think that was funny. I guess that represents what the Democrats really think since Coulter's statement apparently represents all Republicans. Is there a reason why anyone should care what Franken or Coulter either one have to say? Its a joke people. Get over it.
gaius marius|10.25.05 @ 2:43PM|#
It was 1729 when Jonathan Swift made his "Modest Proposal"
and still people don't get it.
as with swift, however, mr cote, the problem is surely not in the
satire -- one woman's words, after all -- as in what it
mocks.
swift's proposal mocked a very real, exploitative and inflammatory
racism of many englishmen toward the irish, a persistent condition
among the english that constantly plagued ireland for centuries
until emancipation. many millions of irish ultimately were murdered
by the neglect, engineered famine and armed suppression of the
british government which swift so plainly thought inhuman.
coulter speaks to an audience that is similarly monstrous in its
judgments and intentions -- and she frankly is not possessed of the
sense of moral indignation that swift lived with, but is instead
merely motivated by money to rabblerouse around ideas she may even
sympathize with.
comparing her to swift is a terrible injustice to swift.
|10.25.05 @ 2:46PM|#
Yes Gaius all Republicans are monstrous. The next I get an audience with the vast right wing zionist conspiracy, I am going to make sure they know that you are onto us. Be very afraid. Be very afraid.
|10.25.05 @ 2:47PM|#
many would sincerely love to, mr jf, and don't only out of
fear for their immortal soul. and can you blame them?
Gee, gaius, it sure is a good thing that those dark-skinned savages
are so god-fearing, or else they'd be killing whites left and
right.
gaius marius|10.25.05 @ 2:50PM|#
Al Franken said on David Letterman last night that Karl Rove
and Dick Chaney should be executed.
everything i said above re: coulter is ultimately true re: franken.
this is not a partisan issue. it's an issue of passionate
incivility undermining our society.
gaius marius|10.25.05 @ 2:52PM|#
Gee, gaius, it sure is a good thing that those dark-skinned
savages are so god-fearing, or else they'd be killing whites left
and right.
are you recharacterizing my views to fit what you want them to be
because you're afraid of losing an argument on its merits, mr jf,
or because you're not bright enough to understand what i'm saying?
:)
|10.25.05 @ 2:55PM|#
The worst thing that can be said about Coulter is that she makes
Franken sound fit for public discourse.
The worst thing that can be said about Franken is that he makes
Coulter sound fit for public discourse.
Jeff P.|10.25.05 @ 2:58PM|#
The problem here is that neither Coulter or Franken have a clue
what they are talking about. They are not partaking in political
discourse, they are tribes of monkeys screaming at each other. They
do not even muster enough irony to qualify as a guilty-pleasure
trainwreck.
Harlan Ellison once said you're not entitled to an opinion, you're
entitled to an INFORMED opinion. Coulter doesn't even come close.
Rich people bashing each other ad hominim to sell books is not
debate. It is no less pop culture zeitgeist than boy bands and
shitty movies and whatever else is considered "it" these
days.
We really need to ignore these people.
|10.25.05 @ 3:01PM|#
John-Al Franken doesn't get invited to be a speaker at the Democratic National Convention every four years. Coulter does. That's the difference.
|10.25.05 @ 3:05PM|#
gaius:
C'mon. Stating that many blacks would love to kill whites, and it's
only for fear that they might go to hell that they won't is
demeaning at best, and the most despicable form of racism at worst.
You can claim I'm recharacterizing your views all day, but it
doesn't change what you said. Unless there was a level of sarcasm
which I missed?
|10.25.05 @ 3:09PM|#
Jeff P.,
Amen. Thank you. Although I'd still like to see that open-mouthed
Madonna kiss on TV. That would be a "Save Until I Delete" TiVo
moment.
|10.25.05 @ 3:12PM|#
John-Al Franken doesn't get invited to be a speaker at the
Democratic National Convention every four years. Coulter
does.
She DOES???? Why???
|10.25.05 @ 3:19PM|#
She DOES???? Why???
She looks a lot better on TV, eating disorder and all.
All Franken manages to do these days is make Joe Piscopo rise on
the ranking of humorous SNL alumni.
|10.25.05 @ 3:25PM|#
Goddammit. Why am I not surprised linguist was the one who
nailed me on that? OK, it should be phrased in a way that implies
that Coulter is invited to speak at the Republican national
convention, not the Democratic one.
Better?
fyodor|10.25.05 @ 3:26PM|#
John,
Franken didn't say they should be executed. He said they
would be. Subtle difference, I know, but the absurdity of
the latter is what made it clearly a joke, and a little bit funny
even.
Though overall Franken's performance was rather mediocre. He was
particularly pathetic at the end when Letterman joked that he
didn't care where the book was sold cause he already had his, and
all Franken could muster was a muttered, "yeah."
|10.25.05 @ 3:39PM|#
Shem,
I don't remember her ever speaking there, but fine. If you hold the
Republicans responsible for her, then I am sure you have no problem
with all Democrats being considered to agree with Michael Moore. I
recall him having a place of honor with that other miserable
bastard Jimmy Carter at Democratic Convention.
|10.25.05 @ 3:40PM|#
"Where were you when Ann Coulter said we should ditch the First Amendment? 9/11. 9/11. 9/11." (sung with an Alan Jackson accent)
gaius marius|10.25.05 @ 3:42PM|#
Stating that many blacks would love to kill whites, and it's
only for fear that they might go to hell that they won't is
demeaning at best,
ah, so, you're not bright enough.
listen, rather than attempt to paint others with the darkest
phobias and projections you can imagine, how about trying to view
my comments with a modicum of respect for the commenter? do you
really think i'm an abject racist based on this comment? really?
because i must say that would indicate vastly more about you than
me, mr jf.
now, do you want me to revisit what i said?
many would sincerely love to, mr jf,
this is true of all of us, regardless of race. this people have
been enslaved, raped, murdered, and engineered genocidally for
centuries at the hands of a white power elite -- that is their
history, and the awareness of it is everywhere in african-american
art, music and literature. how could they not feel the impulse for
revenge? to feel so is human.
and don't only out of fear for their immortal soul.
this is not a dogmatic question to be reflexively rejected by
militant atheists. one's soul can be understood to mean one's
connection to one's history, society and civility. read w.e.b. dubois to
understand. refusing violence against an aggressor is the
preservation of the moral self over the horrible impusles of raw
emotions like revenge in spite of the contemptibility of the
aggressor.
and can you blame them? i can't; indeed, i rather thank them for
their forbearance in light of events as recent as katrina.
i think you underestimate the deep, irretrievable resentment that a
vast majority of african-americans (rightfully, imo) have of an
american political system and management class that has done a very
great deal to isolate, humiliate and repress them as a
proletariat.
again, read virtually the entire product of african-american
literature. it's impossible to miss on an intelligent reading, even
if it is as difficult to understand for a modern bourgeois
american, conditioned to believe himself a noble thing in spite of
his awful history of economic exploitation -- which he disavows as
though such self-forgiveness was redemptive -- as the contempt of
the third world for american imperialism is for an american
patriot.
|10.25.05 @ 4:05PM|#
gaius marius,
one's soul can be understood to mean one's connection to one's
history, society and civility.
I figured you would quote Plato and Aristotle on these matters.
:)
|10.25.05 @ 4:13PM|#
"conditioned to believe himself a noble thing in spite of his
awful history of economic exploitation"
So, gaius, you've crossed the line into collective consciousness
and insanity here at last.
|10.25.05 @ 4:41PM|#
I wish I knew whether the problem is that Democrats and
Republicans are about to start killing each other or that
they aren't. My ISP is home to a lot of liberal Democrat
types, who have frequently been heard to say things like "All
Republicans make me sick" and to make "jokes" about killing
Republicans. It is an article of faith with these people that Bush
stole the election and should be impeached.
Or at least that's how they talk. Who knows what they actually
think? If they actually believe this, what's the message they're
sending? That they think it would be OK to massacre their fellow
Americans - or that if the election actually were stolen, all
they'd do is sit on their hands and gripe? On the other hand,
suppose they don't believe it. Is it a good idea to go around
talking like you do? Does it further useful political discourse to
act like you really believe in starting a holy war? I'm all for
sarcasm and satire, but I think you have a problem when it becomes
the basis for the majority of your communication.
|10.25.05 @ 4:44PM|#
Ann Coulter is jsut another bomb thrower that wants to sell a lot of books. She reminds me the type that would be on The Jerry Springer Show. I just ignore Ann Coulter now, most of the things she says doesn't have much subtance anyway.
|10.25.05 @ 4:54PM|#
again, read virtually the entire product of african-american
literature.
Wow! With this reading recommendation, gaius just out-Gunneled
Gunnels!
[My asserted point is] impossible to miss on an intelligent
reading,
With both barrels! :)
|10.25.05 @ 4:56PM|#
gaius:
Try saying what you mean next time. Also, try reading what others
say, as nowhere did I call, or even imply, that you were a racist.
I did most definitely state that your comment could be interpreted
as racist. You, however, think I'm stupid, which hurts, man. It
really does.
|10.25.05 @ 4:57PM|#
I'd like to state, for the record, that I don't want to shiv
anybody. :)
Geez, what a butt-kissing Uncle Tom! Stop consuming yourself with
self-hate and stick somebody already. You'll feel more
"authentically black" immediately. :)
(Sorry, I used to read too much race stuff during the 1980s.)
|10.25.05 @ 5:00PM|#
Note to self: Jot down "I suggest you read the entire product of African-American literature before you embarass yourself further" for future use. :)
gaius marius|10.25.05 @ 5:03PM|#
gaius, you've crossed the line into collective consciousness
and insanity here at last.
it's simply a duplicitous fraud, mr jdm, to believe that one bears
no responsibilities for the acts of one's ancestors when one reaps
the rewards of their activities (incluing the nefarious ones) so
easily. i know that antisociety and antihistory is the religion du
jour -- but that doesn't make it any less ridiculous.
want to credibly claim independence from the actions of your
ancestors? sell everything you own and burn the money. see a
hypnotist and wipe your mind clean of every memory of your parents
and grandparents and schooling. erase your name and records from
the bureaucracy of the state. start anew as a blank slate, left in
the care of a she-wolf outside of civilization. then i'll respect
your opinions on being "self-made" and "independent".
gaius marius|10.25.05 @ 5:04PM|#
I'd like to state, for the record, that I don't want to shiv
anybody. :)
much appreciated, mr duncan. :)
gaius marius|10.25.05 @ 5:06PM|#
nowhere did I call, or even imply, that you were a
racist
really, mr jf?
Stating that many blacks would love to kill whites, and it's only
for fear that they might go to hell that they won't is demeaning at
best, and the most despicable form of racism at worst. You can
claim I'm recharacterizing your views all day, but it doesn't
change what you said.
that doesn't imply anything? really? lol!
gaius marius|10.25.05 @ 5:07PM|#
and neither does this, i suppose?
Gee, gaius, it sure is a good thing that those dark-skinned
savages are so god-fearing, or else they'd be killing whites left
and right.
you shouldn't make claims that can be so easily dissembled by
things you yourself said a few hours ago on the same page, mr
jf.
|10.25.05 @ 5:09PM|#
JD,
People get so upset about Coulter, but read Democratic Underground
or Atrios or Kos sometime. There are a lot of really angry,
alienated. violent sounding Democrats out there. Fortuneately, the
are mostly self-loathing, over educated, privileged, nuerotic white
people on those sites, so they are not really much of a threat to
anyone but themselves. That said, it can't be good for political
discourse.
gaius marius|10.25.05 @ 5:16PM|#
There are a lot of really angry, alienated. violent sounding
Democrats out there
amen, mr john -- but why do you excuse republicans, who suffer
exactly the same manner of neurotic failure?
or is this a reprise of your constant harping against every
government bureaucracy under the sun as worthless, inefficient and
obstructive -- except the largest and most wasteful one of all, the
american armed forces, which you adulate as though it were your
infallible god?
|10.25.05 @ 5:17PM|#
"want to credibly claim independence from the actions of your
ancestors?"
Dependence on our history is not the same as moral responsibility
for its sins, and it is duplicitous fraud to claim otherwise. Do
you want to claim that each of us has a responsibility to help his
fellow man? I'm all ears. Want to claim that the actions of my
ancestors make it impossible for me to be a moral person? I'll call
it nonsense.
What are you asking for here? Bleeding heart redistributionism for
the third world? Are you pretending there's no arguments about how
to best raise the lot of mankind? Or that the answer is easy and
obvious? You know better.
|10.25.05 @ 5:20PM|#
"Where were you when gaius marius finally went apeshit?" (sung with the accent of Alan Jackson) :->
|10.25.05 @ 5:28PM|#
Bottom line: Coulter is no friend of freedom. Nor, therefore, of you or I. Coulter is a statist and a hypocrite through and through. Well, we knew that already, but now Coulter has officially announced it.
|10.25.05 @ 5:37PM|#
gaius:
This is very simply logic here. Please follow along.
1) You said, regarding my statement about African-Americans not
wanting to kill whites simply because they laughed at "kill whitey"
jokes, "many would sincerely love to, mr jf, and don't only out of
fear for their immortal soul. and can you blame them? i can't;
indeed, i rather thank them for their forbearance in light of
events as recent as katrina."
2) I said "Gee, gaius, it sure is a good thing that those
dark-skinned savages are so god-fearing, or else they'd be killing
whites left and right." This was a sarcastic restatement of your
original words. If you can find "Gee, gaius, you sure do hate
blacks, don't you" in that sentence please help me find it.
3) I later said, "Stating that many blacks would love to kill
whites, and it's only for fear that they might go to hell that they
won't is demeaning at best, and the most despicable form of racism
at worst. You can claim I'm recharacterizing your views all day,
but it doesn't change what you said." This was in regards to the
content of your statement, not the person making said statement
(you). Once again, if you can find "Gee, gaius, you sure do hate
blacks, don't you" in that sentence please help me find it as
well.
gaius marius|10.25.05 @ 5:37PM|#
Dependence on our history is not the same as moral
responsibility for its sins
in other words, mr jdm, you feel entitled to have your cake and eat
it too. :)
What are you asking for here? Bleeding heart redistributionism for
the third world?
no. just a simple admittance that the benefits of bourgeoisie
capitalism that the american affluent middle class (including
myself) were born into have been built in part on -- would indeed
not be possible without -- some of the most egregious sins
imaginable, on a scale exceeding even the holocaust. slavery was
certainly one. the genocide of the native americans another.
admitting the sins is the first step toward forgiveness and
remediation. and it must be admitted -- the effects of slavery will
continue to haunt us for generations if we don't at least get that
far.
Want to claim that the actions of my ancestors make it impossible
for me to be a moral person? I'll call it nonsense.
i agree, mr jdm -- it is possible. but taking responsibility for
that which you and i benefit from is a necessary condition of
attaining that morality.
|10.25.05 @ 5:37PM|#
Paradoctor,
Most people are friends of freedom as long as someone else is in
control. Once someone puts them in charge of something, freedom
becomes a very bad thing.
Gaius,
Go read the comment threads on Little Green Footballs or
Instapundit, or Hugh Hewitt or any Republican site, they are
nothing like the ones on DU or Atrios. Nowhere near full of the
hate and vitrol. You are projecting your own feelings on others
when you claim Republicans, sans Colter are like that. Read Freud
sometime!!
|10.25.05 @ 5:41PM|#
it's simply a duplicitous fraud, mr jdm, to believe that one
bears no responsibilities for the acts of one's ancestors when one
reaps the rewards of their activities (incluing the nefarious ones)
so easily.
Sins of the fathers, gaius? How many generations should bear the
blame for actions the they weren't party to, and couldn't
prevent(as they hadn't existed at that time).
And who should bear the blame? For example, the earliest of my
ancestors didn't hit this shore until 1903, poor fisherman and
farmers from Naples and Poland respectively, who worked in
factories in Waterbury, CT through the 1970's. Are they , and in
turn, am I responsible for abuses caused by Southerners of english
descent?
Now your larger point, I'm sure, is that individualism,
particularly if it asks "why should I do or not do X because Y said
so?", has eroded our once shining society. The same society that
perpetuated these abuses in the first place.
gaius marius|10.25.05 @ 5:41PM|#
thank you for your clarification, mr jf, though i think you're
obviously lying if you claim not to have attempted to impugn my
views with racism. but i'm happy to forgive -- without resorting to
such statements as
Try saying what you mean next time.
|10.25.05 @ 5:42PM|#
Gaius, you seem to assume that everyone's ancestors were either
slaveholders or out west slaughtering Native Americans.
What about those whose ancestors didn't take part?
|10.25.05 @ 5:43PM|#
gaius marius,
Are you suggesting that capitalism came to be because of New World
slave regimes run by Europeans? If so, well, that particular line
of Marxist thinking has been discredited for a long time. I mean
yeah, I like to read Eric Williams and CLR James (and Walter Rodney
for that matter), but I don't buy their theories about capitalism
and the slave trade, European interactions with Africa, etc.
gaius marius|10.25.05 @ 5:43PM|#
Go read the comment threads on Little Green Footballs or
Instapundit, or Hugh Hewitt or any Republican site, they are
nothing like the ones on DU or Atrios. Nowhere near full of the
hate and vitrol
i actually teared up from laughing at this statement.
|10.25.05 @ 5:44PM|#
David,
My family was intimately associated with the slave trade and were
part of the Southern slavocracy to boot. :) I'm just riddled with
collective sin.
|10.25.05 @ 5:45PM|#
I actually teared up from laughing at this statement.
Again, you think that just because you are angry and bitter, every
one else is too. You project on them. Go to the sites right now and
post any comments you think are hateful? If its so easy, put them
up? Or have you ever even read those sites. My guess is you just
assume things to be the case and have no idea what anyone who
disagrees with you actually thinks. Again, read Freud.
|10.25.05 @ 5:46PM|#
David,
Then again, half of my family did fight and die for the Union, so,
they mave gone some way to erasing our collective sin. :)
|10.25.05 @ 5:47PM|#
Hakluyt,
My ancestors raped and pillaged the Roman Empire and helped bring
on the dark ages. How do you overcome that kind of historical
guilt?
gaius marius|10.25.05 @ 5:48PM|#
Are you suggesting that capitalism came to be because of New
World slave regimes run by Europeans?
of course not, gg -- merely that the current state of american
wealth and power was predicated on 1) clearing the economic
potential of some 37 states by genocidally slaughtering their
existing population, and 2) building an essential agricultural
export economy on the backs of enslaved men, women and
children.
we live on the economic rewards reaped of those early actions; i
think it morally behooves us to accept responsibility for
them.
|10.25.05 @ 5:49PM|#
And since I had a several x great grandmother who was Cherokee, but is otherwise white, does that make me simultaneously oppressor and oppressed?
|10.25.05 @ 5:51PM|#
Gaius, I'll point out that your argument is in practical terms
indistinguishable from the justifications various people have for
oppressing and slaughtering those of "enemy" ethnic groups.
If separating living people from historical wrongs by the dead to
the dead is the crazy new religion, get me my E-meter. Otherwise, I
suppose I have to encroach on my own territory, raid my own
settlements, give out smallpox-laden blankets to myself,
etc....
|10.25.05 @ 5:51PM|#
Mediageek,
The Cherokees owned slaves and ruthless conqured a lot of the
southeast during pre-colonial times. Good luck figuring out that
kind of guilt.
|10.25.05 @ 5:51PM|#
we live on the economic rewards reaped of those early
actions; i think it morally behooves us to accept responsibility
for them.
Fair enough. Now, what does accepting that responsibility entail?
(Besides a sincere apology of course.)
|10.25.05 @ 5:52PM|#
Gaius,
Still waiting for all of those hateful posts you claim to exist.
Feel free to put them up as soon as your find them.
gaius marius|10.25.05 @ 5:54PM|#
How many generations should bear the blame for actions the
they weren't party to, and couldn't prevent(as they hadn't existed
at that time). And who should bear the blame?
not interested in blame, mr david. simply saying that, as
beneficiaries of those sins, we bear a responsibility to
them.
What about those whose ancestors didn't take part?
mine certainly didn't, mr mediageek. we were farming in the
lorraine. but it would be ridiculous to say that, as whites moving
to wisconsin in the 1850s, my family didn't benefit from both the
native american genocide that cleared the land and the american
agricultural economy that had been built on slave labor. as such,
have i not benefitted from those sins myself?
|10.25.05 @ 5:55PM|#
gaius marius,
Why? They weren't viewed as immoral at the time (indeed, the
immorality of slavery as a concept held by even a few people only
came into being in the late 17th century - and as a mass movement
in one country in the late 18th century).
Do you really feel like tangling with me on this subject? It may
something like bravado, but I have literally read thousands of
primary and secondary sources on slavery (from all ages).
gaius marius|10.25.05 @ 5:58PM|#
Still waiting for all of those hateful posts you claim to
exist.
there's an intellectual minimum, however miniscule, that merits any
work in responding, mr john. that you don't see the rampant hatred
frequently endemic in Little Green Footballs or Instapundit, or
Hugh Hewitt or any Republican site -- i repeat ANY REPUBLICAN SITE!
-- demonstrates the pathological depth of your political
partisanship.
you'll make an excellent marchman in cheney's revolutionary
mob.
|10.25.05 @ 5:58PM|#
"...ruthless conqured..."
Hear that? I thought you were an anarchist, dude. Way to decieve us
Ruthless.
|10.25.05 @ 5:59PM|#
John,
The Iroquis ruthlessly attacked their neighbors and conquered many
of them before any white person ever had the ability to do so -
they did so with the instruments that they purposefully gathered
via trade with Europeans so as to attack and enslave their
neighbors. The Great Slave Lake in Canada is named after the 19th
century efforts of certain aboriginal groups doing essentially the
same thing as the Iroquis did in the 18th century. All of this
points out how gaius marius' binary victimization theories are full
of holes.
|10.25.05 @ 6:01PM|#
thoreau,
We could get rid of the BIA first and privitize the reserverations.
:)
|10.25.05 @ 6:01PM|#
Hakluyt,
Didn't St. Patrick become a saint not only for converting Ireland,
but also for being one of the first Christians to object to
slavery?
|10.25.05 @ 6:03PM|#
repeat ANY REPUBLICAN SITE! -- demonstrates the pathological
depth of your political partisanship.
But you are not bias, unfair, or projecting or anyting? Right
Gaius? Anyone who disagrees with you is automatically a hate
mongerer, even though you can't point to anything they have said.
They just are that way because you say so. And more importantly,
they are that way because of the group they belong too. Oh that's
fair and reasonable. Sorry to ever question you.
gaius marius|10.25.05 @ 6:05PM|#
They weren't viewed as immoral at the time
indeed, gg, torture doesn't seem to be viewed as immoral now. is
it?
Do you really feel like tangling with me on this subject?
never :) and conveniently i have to go home to gaius minimus. but i
would posit -- philosophically -- that there is more to the
morality that underpinned a western civilization in cohesion than
what passed for its practice at any particular point in its
deterioration (including, of course, the counterreformational
popes). :) it's hard to reconcile mark 12:28-34 with
slavery.
|10.25.05 @ 6:07PM|#
as such, have i not benefitted from those sins
myself?
If the basis for moral responsibility is having benefitted from the
results of a historical action, who alive today can say they
haven't benefitted to some degree, all things considered,
from the atrocities in American history? Is the descendant of
African slaves morally culpable if he has a better life in modern
America than he would have in Africa? What about a guy who just
arrived from the West Indies to get a job in some well-paying
industry?
fyodor|10.25.05 @ 6:07PM|#
John,
You're just gonna give yourself a heart attack or something if you
keep arguing with gaius.
Partisanship is not a partisan disease.
Hey, I like that!
|10.25.05 @ 6:09PM|#
"in other words, mr jdm, you feel entitled to have your cake and
eat it too. :)"
Such a good Catholic. Self-flagellation has no place in morality.
What I want is to find the best way forward.
Unbelievable but true side note: As I was typing this, a black girl
came to my door selling magazines, and trying to promote the sales
as a hand up for under-priveleged people. It instills work ethic in
her and all of that kind of thing, you see, which she wasn't taught
during her upbringing in New Orleans. It was a real heartfelt pitch
about how many of my neighbors were willing to help her out, etc.
She even thanked me for not siccing my dogs on her. I told her I
didn't need any magazines.
|10.25.05 @ 6:10PM|#
John,
St. Patrick was a slave for several years in his life; he is also
said to have banished snakes from Ireland. :)
During the middle ages the Catholic Church's position was that
holding slaves wasn't sinful, though the Church objected to
Christians being the slaves of Jews or "Moors/Saracens." The
Catholic Church was slow to condemn slavery in comparison to
vanguard Christian groups like the Quakers and some members of the
Methodist church.
|10.25.05 @ 6:13PM|#
gaius marius,
The New Testament essentially assumes that Christians will continue
to own slaves. It doesn't anticipate a period when slavery is
immoral as an institution. That's why apologists for slavery from
the 17th century onward were able to use the Bible so deftly
against critics of slavery.
|10.25.05 @ 6:22PM|#
A lot of people don't realize what's really going on. They view life as a bunch of unconnected incidences and things. They don't realize that there's this like lattice of coincidence that lays on top of everything. I'll Give you an example, show you what I mean. Suppose you thinking about a plate of shrimp. Suddenly somebody will say like plate or shrimp or plate of shrimp out of the blue no explanation. No point in looking for one either. It's all part of a cosmic unconsciousness.
|10.25.05 @ 6:27PM|#
Skimming these comments I see a number of people mud wrestling
with a very happy pig.
Coulter is amusing, but should not be taken seriously. She is
incapable of convincing someone who does not already agree with
her. Franken is the same, except for the amusing part.
No, the Lefties will never openly confront the Right, no matter how
shrill their rhetoric. They don't own guns. Instead they will file
an endless barrage of law suits.
Oink.
|10.25.05 @ 6:31PM|#
Hakluyt,
I know St. Patrick was a slave and several of his most famous
tracts condem slavery.
|10.25.05 @ 6:45PM|#
John,
If St. Patrick did write anything on the matter, his influence was
negligible and the Catholic Church did not take an anti-slavery
position until late in the game. Note that the Catholic Church,
through the arguments of de las Casas, argued in favor of African
slavery in New World as a means to save the aboriginal population
of the New World.
|10.25.05 @ 6:54PM|#
John,
In the West the main movers and shakers against slavery were either
Christian radicals like the Quakers or Enlightenment figures like
Montesquieu. Prior to their arrival slavery was not viewed by the
West (using that term in its loosest form) morally as a problematic
institution.
|10.25.05 @ 6:56PM|#
John,
I suppose I should also mentioned the English "working class" of
the 18th and 19th century. Some of the largest protects in English
were over slavery; also, note that many of these "working class"
efforts were bitterly and viciously attacked by the government of
Pitt the younger.
|10.25.05 @ 6:59PM|#
I'm sorry, all you black folks, even though I'm not sure any of
my ancestors ever owned any slaves.
I'm sorry, all you native american folks, which I'm sure at least a
few ancestors on my dad's side did, indeed, bust a cap in, and may
have even had sex with/raped/been raped by one or two.
Now, with that out of the way, I'd like to say that even if I am
benefitting from all these horrible things that happened in the
past, the best thing I can see to do, for everyone involved, is to
put it behind us and try to better ourselves. That goes for white
people, black people, brown people, yellow people, red people, etc.
All this bullshit Christian guilt about how bad our ancestors are
is completely counter-productive. I'm not saying we should forget
the sins of our fathers, but to dwell on them is neurotic.
(For the record, on my dad's side we come from wales, but many
years ago, so I'm sure we were around to kill some indians. Not so
sure we had any money, though, or ever lived in the south. Being
from Kansas, we may have been sympathetic to the slave trade, or we
may have been against it. Tough call there, since Kansas was pretty
schizo about the whole issue. On my mom's side, I'm only 2nd
generation Czech, so we didn't have anything to do with any of
that.)
|10.25.05 @ 7:00PM|#
Bago--Nice Repo Man reference. I say "plate of shrimp" to my husband about 3 times a week and we both know what that means! ;-)
|10.25.05 @ 7:02PM|#
Lowdog,
A European ancestor of yours might have been involved in the
various European slave trades of the middle ages, the classical
period, etc. Though not generally known, slavery was a growth
industry in much of nothern and eastern Europe throught much of the
middle ages - though Vikings" or "Northmen" were some of the
primary contributors to this trade, they weren't the only folks
involved.
|10.25.05 @ 7:20PM|#
Hakluyt - d'oh, but of course, you may be right. I didn't even
think of it, since all the focus seemed to be on what went on
over here. But you're totally right.
Not that I need to tell you that. ;)
In addition, if you want to go back far enough, one of my ancestors
could have had slaves in a Roman province or somesuch. I cannot
trace my family back very far, so it's nearly impossible to
say.
|10.25.05 @ 7:26PM|#
Lowdog,
I guarantee you that at least one of your ancestors was a complete
bastard. :)
|10.25.05 @ 7:45PM|#
I'm German on my dad's side. The ancient Romans, founders of
European civilization, had Germanic slaves.
I'm mixed Slavic on my mom's side. The Slavs were so commonly
enslaved by other Europeans that the word "slave" is derived from
"Slav."
So, European civilization was built on the backs of my enslaved
forebears. If any of you people are of European descent, or benefit
from the use of any European-derived technology or product -- and
yes, that includes the English language, then you owe
me.
Who knows where I'd be today if you hadn't held me back.
PS: If I'm morally responsible not just for my own actions, but for
the evil actions of others that might benefit me in any way, then
it seems to me I have both the right and the duty to morally police
you, lest my own morals be tainted if you do anything I don't
approve of that ultimately benefits me, even if unsolicited.
So put that out, put down that drink, stop looking at that filth,
and put that back in your pants. I want to make sure you can't do
me any morally tainted favors.
|10.25.05 @ 7:47PM|#
Do you really feel like tangling with me on this subject? It
may something like bravado, but I have literally read thousands of
primary and secondary sources on slavery (from all
ages).
Uh-oh. Sounds like Gary's taking umbrage at Gaius' stealing his
bit. Better get the pistols out.;)
John-I hold the Democrats responsible for Michael Moore just as I
hold the Republicans responsible for Coulter. Neither side should
be using these tactics. I freely admit that this was not always so,
however. In the past I have singled out Republicans for their use
of Coulter, as they seemed to be very willing to use her in their
conventions and elsewhere, while the Democrats made attempts to
distance themselves publicly from such tactics. Over the course of
the past year and a half, this has changed, which I do find very
concerning.
Also, in fairness to Gaius, some of those Republican sites are just
as bad as the Democratic ones. Free Republic springs to mind.
They're often not as shrill as DU and the others, but they're just
as hostile to the values of the Bill of Rights as the Democrats
are. Much of this, I believe, is owing to the fact that a lot of
them don't have comments enabled. The shrill ones are rarely the
ones in charge; it's the peanut gallery where things get
irritating.
|10.25.05 @ 7:49PM|#
Wow. Stevo telling somebody else to keep it in his pants. This guilt is some powerful stuff. Never thought I'd see the day.
|10.25.05 @ 7:55PM|#
Al Franken said on David Letterman last night that Karl Rove
and Dick Chaney should be executed.
Ah, so the dems are back on board with capital punishment. Good to
know.
Paul
|10.25.05 @ 8:00PM|#
Shem, in reality I live a life of uncommon purity and nearly monastic chasteness.
|10.25.05 @ 8:06PM|#
it's simply a duplicitous fraud, mr jdm, to believe that one
bears no responsibilities for the acts of one's ancestors when one
reaps the rewards of their activities (incluing the nefarious ones)
so easily. i know that antisociety and antihistory is the religion
du jour -- but that doesn't make it any less ridiculous.
Responsibility is a throw-away word, here. I bear NO responsibility
for slavery. None. I have no ancestors in this nation prior the
very late 19th century- I come from peasants, and am one of the
only people I know that has no royalty in my family. (9 out of 10
people are related to Charlamagne-- or at least that's what
everyone I've ever met tells me).
But I also understand that that's not your main point. And fair
enough. But a butterfly flaps its wings... so what? I can guarantee
you that someone, somewhere has reaped the benefits of the
oppression of my ancestors, somewhere in history. So what... some
19 year old kid in Germany bears 'responsibility' for that?
Negative. All this does is smack of "Look at me, I'm not racist, I
think white people should take responsibility... blah blah blah".
That has been like, SO done before.
A penny earned 300 years ago has little or no bearing on
'responsibility' four generations down the road- unless that fourth
generation is actively oppressing the same people.
And even if one gives nod to the INCREDIBLY tortured thread of
responsibility- what's the recourse? Something tells me it will
involve government, and uhmmm, taxes?
Paul
|10.25.05 @ 8:42PM|#
gaius:
I guess you're home now, and enjoying the family. Lucky you, my son
lives in Virginia, and I'm stuck in Ohio, and I miss him like
crazy.
"thank you for your clarification, mr jf, though i think you're
obviously lying if you claim not to have attempted to impugn my
views with racism. but i'm happy to forgive -- without resorting to
such statements as
Try saying what you mean next time."
"Try saying what you mean next time" was a commentary on your
original sentiment, and was not meant as an insult or "nuclear bomb
debating tactic". I do not for a second believe that you are a
racist; I do however completely believe that your comment that
(paraphrasing) "many blacks do want to kill white people, if not
for fear for their immortal souls" is a racist statement.
I'm sorry that you confused my accusation that your statement was
racist with a condemnation of you as a person as a racist; that was
not my intention, and considering your skill as a debater on Hit
and Run, I did not think you would misintepret me in that way.
|10.25.05 @ 8:50PM|#
gaius:
For what it's worth, you are totally correct that the commentors on
LGF and some other right-wing sites are just as, if not more,
hateful as those on DailyKos, DU, and other left-wing sites. I
disagree that Instapundit is hateful, however, and question how
anyone could even come to that conclusion.
|10.25.05 @ 11:48PM|#
JF,
I don't know what LGF is and don't read it. However, I would still
would like to see examples from whatever site you want that is as
crazy and abusive as the stuff that is routinely on DU, Kos and
Atrios.
|10.26.05 @ 12:39AM|#
Gaius,
Go read the comment threads on Little Green Footballs or
Instapundit, or Hugh Hewitt or any Republican site, they are
nothing like the ones on DU or Atrios. Nowhere near full of the
hate and vitrol. You are projecting your own feelings on others
when you claim Republicans, sans Colter are like that. Read Freud
sometime!!
Comment by: John at October 25, 2005 05:37 PM
I don't know what LGF is and don't read it. However, I would
still would like to see examples from whatever site you want that
is as crazy and abusive as the stuff that is routinely on DU, Kos
and Atrios.
Dag, yo. John, is it really possible that you don't recognise LGF
as the initials of Little Green Footballs?
gaius marius|10.26.05 @ 10:15AM|#
If the basis for moral responsibility is having benefitted
from the results of a historical action, who alive today can say
they haven't benefitted to some degree, all things considered, from
the atrocities in American history?
and not just american history, but all of history, mr .5b?
at the risk of extending this fairly civil discussion into divisive
territory, i think you're approaching the root of the wisdom behind
the concept of original sin.
gaius marius|10.26.05 @ 10:25AM|#
Lucky you, my son lives in Virginia, and I'm stuck in Ohio,
and I miss him like crazy.
i'm sorry to hear it, mr jf. good luck to you.
do however completely believe that your comment that (paraphrasing)
"many blacks do want to kill white people, if not for fear for
their immortal souls" is a racist statement.
mr jf, is it a racist statement to say that many american whites
would not be opposed to killing african-americans? i would say that
is a fairly obvious observation. i merely acknowledge that the
reciprocal is also true.
and -- and this is a very important point -- that has nothing to do
with anyone's genetics.
within the ad hoc american society, we all live with the fact that
millions of members of another culture were captured, caged, beaten
into submission and forced to the will of our own culture.
that is a cultural conflict, not a racial one --
indeed, i don't think "race" has nearly enough deterministic
meaning along such lines to be important.
i am saying that the members of that aggrieved and dislocated
culture hold a deep, powerful resentment toward our culture for the
profound amorality of our economic behavior -- even as the two
cultures exchange some characteristics. that sense of cultural
grief is more than powerful enough, if it is allowed to break free
from the self-imposed constraints of civility, to indulge itself in
mortal revenge. it would be for anyone so aggrieved, imo, and has
often been in the past.
gaius marius|10.26.05 @ 10:29AM|#
She even thanked me for not siccing my dogs on her.
perhaps, mr jf, we can use mr jdm's experience to illustrate what
the disaffected members of the african-american proletariat have
come to expect of the euro-american middle class.
gaius marius|10.26.05 @ 10:35AM|#
If St. Patrick did write anything on the matter, his
influence was negligible and the Catholic Church did not take an
anti-slavery position until late in the game.
some evidence for others, gg, who believe that the catholic church
cannot change. :)
fwiw, you're obviously aware that a religion as a set o ideas and
the imperfect institution which would ostensibly forward those
ideas in the world are not the same. i think one has to be a bit
silly (as you do) to think that the catholic church has been
anything near a perfect expression of holiness on the earth -- such
thinking is a consequence of an institution which forgot about god
and fell in love with itself and its secular aspirations.
but that is not the same as saying that the ideas of christ somehow
advocate enslaving one's fellow man. would you agree?
|10.26.05 @ 10:37AM|#
gaius,
Do you really believe that so many people are fixated on genocide
in this country? What's holding them all back?
Is it possible that the overwhelming majority of people, while
possibly uncomfortable with other races, are more concerned with
actually living their lives than ending someone else's?
gaius marius|10.26.05 @ 10:39AM|#
All this bullshit Christian guilt about how bad our
ancestors are is completely counter-productive. I'm not saying we
should forget the sins of our fathers, but to dwell on them is
neurotic.
to dwell on them, mr lowdog, is i think a powerful antidote to
personal hubris. fwiw, i think that a person who assiduously
attempts to forget them is in fact trying to escape from
something.
|10.26.05 @ 10:42AM|#
mr jf, is it a racist statement to say that many american
whites would not be opposed to killing
african-americans?
No, it would merely be an unsupported opinion, with absolutely no
basis in the real world. Now, if you'll excuse me, I'm going to get
some popcorn and watch the race riot that should be starting any
minute outside my window.
gaius marius|10.26.05 @ 10:45AM|#
If I'm morally responsible not just for my own actions, but
for the evil actions of others that might benefit me in any way,
then it seems to me I have both the right and the duty to morally
police you, lest my own morals be tainted if you do anything I
don't approve of that ultimately benefits me, even if
unsolicited.
in other words, mr darkly, an acknowledgement of responsibility
accompanying reward is a basic rational for social
cohesion?
|10.26.05 @ 10:46AM|#
Hak,
Would it be fair to say that, when you take in a larger scope of
history, pretty much all of us have ancestors that were slaves at
some point or other? This would be especially true if you expand
the definition of slavery to include indentured servitude which was
practically like being a slave without passing on the slavery to
one's children, no?
|10.26.05 @ 10:47AM|#
perhaps, mr jf, we can use mr jdm's experience to illustrate
what the disaffected members of the african-american proletariat
have come to expect of the euro-american middle class.
Here's another true story. Every time I go to the gas station, I've
got middle-aged African-American men asking me if I have any spare
change. From this, we can obviously extrapolate that all black men
need a quarter to call a taxi.
And another thing: it would not be an exagerration to say that many
Maltese men would like to see non-swarthy people killed.
gaius marius|10.26.05 @ 11:02AM|#
I'm going to get some popcorn and watch the race riot that
should be starting any minute outside my window.
unfortunately, you'll probably only be there a few years, mr
jf.
you don't think that many american whites think that blacks should
be rounded up and shot? really? because i know some, i'm sad and
angry to say, and they have a lot of likeminded hillbilly
friends.
|10.26.05 @ 11:09AM|#
"perhaps, mr jf, we can use mr jdm's experience to illustrate
what the disaffected members of the african-american proletariat
have come to expect of the euro-american middle class."
Perhaps we can instead use them to spot a discpicable marketing
tactic. I'd like to find the person behind that magazine scam and
punch them in the face.
Come on, gaius, you can fit this into your narrative too:
it is a symptom of the age of decline in which we find ourselves
that the very real plight of american africans is now used as a
cheap ploy to sell magazines in search of mere lucre. i will point
out the irony that these magazines, btw, are simply more propaganda
meant to perpetuate consumerism among the plebes.
|10.26.05 @ 11:12AM|#
What do you mean by "many" Gaius? I have met a fair amount of
people like that myself, but they seem like a pretty
inconsequential bunch.
The kind of racism that ought to worry people in this day and age
is of a much more subtle, subconscious even, variety imho.
gaius marius|10.26.05 @ 11:35AM|#
genocide
is a powerful word, mr david. i think the pathetic point of view
i'm positing the existence of falls short of that -- but certainly
believes, for example, that two-thirds of black men really do
belong in the criminal justice system -- and that many of those
would be better off dead.
perhaps it's my familiarity with rural america, being from there
and still positioned in chicago, but i'm quite sensitive to the
opinions of this unwashed mass in flyover country.
|10.26.05 @ 4:01PM|#
"If I'm morally responsible not just for my own actions, but for
the evil actions of others that might benefit me in any way, then
it seems to me I have both the right and the duty to morally police
you, lest my own morals be tainted if you do anything I don't
approve of that ultimately benefits me, even if unsolicited."
"in other words, mr darkly, an acknowledgement of responsibility
accompanying reward is a basic rational for social cohesion?"
More like a warning, gaius, that if I accept your view of
"responsibility," then I have a philosophical justification for the
most totalitarian, intrusive government imaginable.
-----
Also, as an aside, I looked at the quotes from LGF and, aside from
a couple of the anti-Islamic comments, they don't appear to hold a
candle to some of the stuff I remember seeing on places
like DU or even Washington Monthly's "Political Animal" blog. But
this is, of course, a very subjective judgment, and I admit that I
don't have time this week to round up counter-cites. There is also
probably an aspect of where one's sympathies tend to lie, whose ox
is being gored, and the tendency to remember the most outrageous
and offensive comments more than the calm and reasoned ones.
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