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Naval Anti-Defamation League
In that innocent era, the early '90s, how we laughed at those P.C. ninnies who argued that phrases like "dutch treat" were offensive. Well, look who's playing the aggrieved-minority card now.
Jeff P.|8.25.05 @ 5:12PM|#
From now on I will swap the phrase "drunken sailor" with "sitting US President."
|8.25.05 @ 5:16PM|#
I am an ex U.S. Navy lieutenant, and I can assure you that the
archetypal drunken sailor still exists, and is in fact quite
common.
Take a bunch of young men, raised to see alcohol as a forbidden
fruit, put them on a ship where it is denied to them for weeks at a
time, then cut them loose in a port where the locals are quite
happy to sell to them, and nature takes its course.
The guys who are protesting are possibly the sort who hardly ever
go to sea (and hardly ever swear the big, big, D too I'll warrant),
delusional, or not sailors.
|8.25.05 @ 5:33PM|#
These guys ought to be happy that's ALL the stereotype they
have. Here's some more:
Bounces checks like a sailor.
Bangs Mexican hookers like a sailor.
Drives drunk and kills somebody like a sailor.
Shows up at parties he wasn't invited to and starts fights like a
sailor.
Can't read or do math like a sailor.
Washes airplanes for 16 grand a year like a sailor.
|8.25.05 @ 5:37PM|#
Your callous show of contempt for the U.S Navy and the fine
blue jackets that have fought and died to defend you sickens
me.
Isn't it kind of a stretch to call a title that had the word
"drunken sailors" a show of comtempt for the U.S. Navy? Is it just
me or do people really go out of their way to get offended these
days?
|8.25.05 @ 5:42PM|#
David,
It's not just you.
As I live in a Navy town (and used to be a bartender) I can tell
you from experience these twits are living in a dreamworld. I'd add
to that but stereo typist summed it up better than I ever
could.
P.C....it's not just for liberals anymore.
Of course it won't really get interesting until someone files a
class action suit.
|8.25.05 @ 5:46PM|#
I can't read Balko's site from my office, but maybe he was sticking it to drunken yachtsmen and not U.S. naval personnel?
Tim Cavanaugh|8.25.05 @ 5:48PM|#
How about an Air Force anti-defamation league, seeing as how
more than 90 percent of all ordnance dropped on Iraq in both Gulf
Wars (IIRC: It's in that neighborhood anyway) was dropped by the
United States Air Force, and the remainder was dropped by the U.S.
Navy and all other allied forces-yet you'd never know that
from any movie, video game, or TV show, all of which depict Navy
aviators as the only air defense (or offense) this country has
(probably because the Navy spends orders of magnitude more on
Hollywood outreach than any other service branch).
You want a group of people who are actually defending this
country and not getting an ounce of credit, look no further than
the United States Air Force.
|8.25.05 @ 5:48PM|#
As I say, I don't write the headlines. But I do think it's
funny that most of the email I'm getting is about drunken sailors,
not arrogant Republicans.
Boy...now THAT one needs a little explanation 'cause unless he's
got some hard facts to back that one up, I don't see how he could
make that conclusion. I seriously doubt the indignant ones are
putting their political affiliation in their e-mails.
From my experience, Republicans are every bit as likely to get
twitchy over stupid, inconsequential bullshit as anyone else.
Radley...if you're listening in...how 'bout some data on that
one.
|8.25.05 @ 5:52PM|#
Uhhh, what's a dutch treat? Is it dirty? The only definition I know is as in, "going dutch" on a date. Is that offensive to the dutch?
|8.25.05 @ 5:53PM|#
The letters kind of remind one of the old Monty Python episode
on cannibalism in the Royal Navy:
"I abhor the implication that the Royal Navy is a haven for
cannibalism. It is well known that we now have the problem
relatively under control, and that it is the RAF who now suffer the
most casualties in this area."
- Letter from Capt. B.J. Smethicke in a white wine sauce, with
shallots, mushrooms, and garlic
http://www.astro.uu.se/~hoefner/quotes/q_monty.html
|8.25.05 @ 5:56PM|#
What'll we do with a drunken sailor,
What'll we do with a drunken sailor,
What'll we do with a drunken sailor,
Earl-aye in the morning?
Way hay and up she rises
Patent blocks o' diff'rent sizes,
Way hay and up she rises
Earl-aye in the morning
|8.25.05 @ 5:57PM|#
What are the odds that these same sailor boys get all pissy when asked not to use terms like "fag" or "punjab" or "Hijee"
|8.25.05 @ 5:59PM|#
madpad,
He wrote an article attacking the Republicans (savaging them,
actually), adn fox news put a reference to Drunken Sailors in the
title.
He is sommenting that most of the protests he has received are
about the headline rather than the content. Since it is his inbox,
I don't think he needs a source to back it up: he is the
source.
|8.25.05 @ 6:17PM|#
From now on I will swap the phrase "drunken sailor" with
"sitting US President."
AMEN!!!!!!!!!!!!
|8.25.05 @ 6:33PM|#
What's amusing is that the headline referred to "sailors". Not US Navy sailors. Not military sailors. Just...sailors. Like, as in, someone who travels in a boat. Yet, the Navy guys took it upon themselves to presume that it was a jab at Navy sailors...
|8.25.05 @ 6:44PM|#
Uhhh, what's a dutch treat? Is it dirty? The only definition
I know is as in, "going dutch" on a date. Is that offensive to the
dutch?
"Dutch treat" means the same as "going dutch" on a date. In other
words, you get invited, but have to pay your own way. I guess it
implies the Dutch are cheap. If anybody still mentally linked the
old term to the actual Dutch, that is.
You know what term I find offensive? "Indian giver."
No, I take that back ...
(Credit: Emo Phillips.)
|8.25.05 @ 6:45PM|#
Anyone notice that the Fox changed the title.
Conservatives giving into-PC, I love it.
Interesting coincedence since I was just reading Jonah Goldberg at
NRO reaming a local radio station for firing a commentator who made
anti-Islamic comments.
|8.25.05 @ 6:58PM|#
Speaking as someone who lives on sailboat, I am offended that our naval servicepersons consider themselves to be sailors at all. Everyone knows Navy ships have no sails.
Britton|8.25.05 @ 7:06PM|#
I've been a sailor since 88, and I can attest that young squids
in a new port have a tendency to get drunk and spend a lot of that
cash they've been saving up underway.
Beer and whores don't grow on trees, you know.
|8.25.05 @ 7:09PM|#
The Mad Scientist,
Has the Navy actually decommissioned the U.S.S. Constitution?
|8.25.05 @ 7:16PM|#
Matthew Hogan:
That Monty Python line was the first thing that occured to me when
I read: "I think you could have used another analogy other than
'Drunken Sailors'. I spent almost 23 years in the Navy and I can
honestly say that the U.S. Navy has taken great strides in changing
that perspective."
|8.25.05 @ 7:28PM|#
Shawn, I think the Constitution is still a bona-fide U.S. Navy ship. At the least, the Navy is the body conducting the public tours of the ship. Ah ha! The Navy has a whole website just for the Constitution. However, since they almost never actually SAIL her...
|8.25.05 @ 8:04PM|#
I agree that the term "spending like a drunken sailor" is offensive and inappropriate, and I'm glad that these proud, patriotic naval personnel took the time out from fucking each other in the ass to express themselves.
|8.25.05 @ 8:08PM|#
madpad, I think you misunderstood Balko's comment.
He's noting that, while he hasn't received any messages from
Republicans who object to being compared to sailors, he's received
a ton of mail from sailors who object to being compared to
Republicans.
;-P Thhhppppttttt!
|8.25.05 @ 9:10PM|#
I agree that the term "spending like a drunken sailor" is
offensive and inappropriate, and I'm glad that these proud,
patriotic naval personnel took the time out from fucking each other
in the ass to express themselves.
Joe,
Outstanding!
|8.25.05 @ 9:29PM|#
Never had a Dutch treat, but my brothers did give me Dutch
rubs.
Tim, the reason the Air Force gets no love is, any real soldier
knows they're nothing but "flyboys."
|8.25.05 @ 10:11PM|#
Heck, the British Royal Navy was drunk every day for more than 300 years. All around the world seaports have reputations for rough and tumble drinking. Sorry to the U.S. Navy for not getting the drunken sailor image out of our heads OVERNIGHT.
|8.25.05 @ 10:40PM|#
Tim,
The Navy led with _Top Gun_ and the Air Force responded with _Iron
Eagle_. A bad beat. But reallym when the Air Force can't even
muster a competitor to _Pensacola: Wings of Gold_, things are in a
dire shape...
Anon
|8.25.05 @ 11:16PM|#
Joe:
I needed a good laugh, whew.
Captain Awesome: Can I make a political pro-capitalist statement by
shooting one of those 'protestors' in the head? Since, while
protesting, it doesn't seem to matter if you violate the rights of
others.
|8.26.05 @ 12:19AM|#
I don't get bent out of shape by the term "drunken sailor"; most
stereotypes have a grain of truth as their basis. But I spent
several years in the Navy way back before most of you little snots
were even a gleam in some sailor's eye and I will tell you the same
thing that I told the editor, back then, of Sol III ( an early
REASON competitor): Attitudes toward military people(read enlisted
men) such as yours are one of the prime reasons why a military
draft has usually been necessary in this country. Do you really
expect men to volunteer for an organization in which they are
referred to as GIs (Government Issue = government property), where
they have less legal status than a Negro had in Mississippi? Where
they will be paid only a little more than what they could make at a
fastfood joint! Where they won't have the same rights as any other
government employee because...by god! it's their "DUTY" to serve
their country!?? Do you expect that they will volunteer to be
looked down on by their fellow countrymen or to be relegated to the
company of prostitutes ( "decent" people discourage their "nice"
daughters from associating with those nasty ol' sailors.)
But come to think of it, I guess a bunch of them would volunteer
for the military if, thanks to our lovely government and our
crooked, monetary-inflating financial institutions,...if thanks to
them there aren't any decent-paying jobs left in the country(
except as some tax sucking, beaurocrat, like maybe a city
planner.)
dagny|8.26.05 @ 12:42AM|#
I gotta say, "dutch treat" is pretty accurate, too. Dutch people
are cheap. Maybe not actual living-in-the-Netherlands-Dutch, but
the Dutch in West Michigan certainly are.
I can say that, my grandma's from Allendale :) (1/4 Dutch). The one
the "multicultural assistants" at my university were big on is you
can't say you were gypped, because that's offensive to gypsies.
|8.26.05 @ 12:43AM|#
complexisomorphism, holy crap that is an awesome answer!
And, reputations suck when you get stuck with someone elses. To,
further the cross-reputationalizing, my experience with enlisted
men was from college in San Diego, Marines and Navy men like to
show up at your party and make women uncomfortable enough to leave,
then invite over all of their friends. But (actually
non-sarcastically) I do have love for our personal in-house
mercenaries. And when they die for some stupid reason, all I can
say is, "it's a crying shame part of their contract is to do
whatever some wacko we elected tells them to."
The Wine Commonsewer|8.26.05 @ 12:47AM|#
Sailors have come a long way since the post WWI days when there
were signs warning that Sailors and Dogs, Keep Off the
Grass so stop bitching.
Besides, I know exactly how drunk sailors spend, I've hung with
many of them. And if you really want a treat go for a drive with a
drunk sailor. VBG
Come on Joe, now your sound like a Marine....talking about fag
sailors and such.
Stevo, LOL, but I thought that was a Stephen Wright gag.
BTW, drunk Marines aren't any more frugal.
|8.26.05 @ 1:41AM|#
I'm convinced that there are people out there who just can't get through the day without being deeply offended by something...
|8.26.05 @ 1:49AM|#
Linguist: "Uhhh, what's a dutch treat? Is it dirty? The only
definition I know is as in, 'going dutch' on a date. Is that
offensive to the dutch?"
Mynheer Linguist, myabe you should take a good look at
http://www.nationallampoon.com/dutch/dindex.html and especiailly at
the cartoon at
http://www.nationallampoon.com/dutch/dutch2.html
|8.26.05 @ 6:36AM|#
Speaking as a former frequently drunken sailor:
1. joe's joke was cute, but mainly I see it as a good argument to
bring back the draft, if only to get rid of the current widespread
ignorance that currently exists about the military. Truth be told,
the Navy has for quite some time had a place for gays in it's
ranks, and any sailor could tell you they're called Medical
Corpsman. From my experience the gays in the Navy only ran into
trouble when they tried to be something else, say, something manly
like bosuns or gunnery mates. Caveat, I've been out for 25+ years
now.
2. Tim speaks of the Air Force's bombing predominance, I will
assume he has his facts right. What the Navy had through the Cold
War which probably did as much to keep the peace as anything was
the intercontinental missiles aboard nuclear submarines. Although
the Navy hasn't seen a lot of action really since WWII, I think it
is rightly respected (feared?) throughout the world. At this point
the Navy is mainly used as a strategic projection of national
power, as the naval historian George Thayer Mahan advocated, but
the devastation that an carrier group can wreak upon an enemy,
especially coastal cities, is something I wouldn't want to be
anywhere near when it happened.
3. When I was in there was a whole effort going on by Naval PR to
change the image of sailors as sloppy, drunken clowns to that of
proud professionals serving their nation. Well, to quote the Byrds
song, to every thing there is a season. When you've been proudly
serving your nation out at sea for two or three weeks in severe
weather and you can hardly remember when you had a good night's
sleep, when you get into port you need a drink, and 12 or 13 will
be better than 2 or 3, thank you. At least that's how it was for me
& the other drunks dragging ourselves back to the ship at 4
am.
Also, at least if you're single, you usually have about a month's
pay burning a hole in your pocket. "Spending money like a drunken
sailor" is one of those great commonplace truths that are right on
the nose, much as some people might not want to admit it.
|8.26.05 @ 8:15AM|#
I for one am grossly offended by these stereotypes. Mariners throughout history were stalwarts of sobriety, discipline, and good manners. Think of pirates and privateers.
Jeff P.|8.26.05 @ 8:23AM|#
But what about Sub-Mariners? Pointy-eared, wing-footed bastards! Always attacking us surface-dwellers. They hate us for our free oxygen!
|8.26.05 @ 8:35AM|#
There are only two things I hate: those who are intolerant of other people's cultures. And the Dutch.
|8.26.05 @ 9:24AM|#
"Spending money like a drunken sailor" is too good of a simile to disappear from common usage. So the sailor boys need to stop being so sensitive (a sensitive sailor for Christ's sake!) or they need to come up with a more attractive simile to replace it. How about "Spending money like a rapacious golddigger"?
|8.26.05 @ 10:29AM|#
Caveat, I've been out for 25+ years now.
Out of the navy, or out of the closet?
|8.26.05 @ 10:41AM|#
You want a group of people who are actually defending this
country and not getting an ounce of credit, look no further than
the United States Air Force.
Man, the USCG NEVER gets love. No cool movies. No cool
anything. I remember a tonight show episode that had a bunch of
service members in the audience from all the branches, and everyone
from the other branches booed the coast guardsmen. there were only,
like, 8 of them in the crowd. I guess the rest of them were out
actually defending things like ports & harbors and doing SAR
and useless non-Top Gun stuff like that.
I'm not in the CG or any other branch of the military, but i'd
really like to hear why the CG gets so little respect for their
role in national defense compared to the other branches.
I've heard that the CG lost more members in WWII than any other
service branch as a percentage of total members.
|8.26.05 @ 10:49AM|#
Since it is his inbox, I don't think he needs a source to
back it up: he is the source.
tarran,
I think you're a little off base. I completely understand that
Balko's article savages Republicans (and rightly so,
IMHO).
Yet he goes on to state that the people responding to said article
who are indignant by the comparison are NOT
Republicans.
My point is that I don't see how he could possibly have the
information to make that statement with anything approaching
authority.
It would require that EVERY (or at least most) of the posts by
indignant persons include their political affiliation, which I
think is extremely unlikely - though not impossible.
Indeed he is the source, as you accurately point out. But that
source is based on his interperetation of what he's seeing in his
inbox. I merely asked from some clarification as to how he arrived
at that conclusion.
|8.26.05 @ 10:56AM|#
What a mess....
Mr. Cavanaugh gives us the brilliant insight of "ordnance dropped =
importance." This thread is way too short to explain 21st century
combined arms theory to a pop culture critic. Personally, I think
his expertise is better applied to commentary on the Navy and
Marine Corps band.
Joe gives us his riff on "the Aristocrats" which is apparently now
"the Sailors."
The most salient comments here are from the shellbacks (you know
who you are). Spend a few months at sea. Work long hours under
lousy conditions and then dock in the libertarian paradise of
Olongapo City where (if memory serves) San Miguel beer cost 25
cents a bottle and every bar was full of hookers.
I expect those most offended by the phrase "drunken sailors" are
those base-bound starched-shirt prudes who never crossed the Po to
sample the subtle charms of mojo. They thought "Long Time" was a
song by Boston and never entered the secret fraternity of those who
played "Smiles."
They missed quite a party....
Jesse Walker|8.26.05 @ 10:59AM|#
Madpad: He wrote that the mail is "about drunken sailors, not
arrogant Republicans."
"About" does not mean "from."
drf|8.26.05 @ 11:00AM|#
dutch oven.
cleveland steamer...
*giggle*
(Linguist: as far as i've understood it, "going dutch" is pretty
much = "dutch treat", unless there's something else out there. I
thought "hot Karl" was how the girls dug a buggy of mine.)
GOOSE ISLAND!!!!! 8/27, tomorrow at 7:30!!!!!
drf|8.26.05 @ 11:02AM|#
dammit! make that "buddy".
need....more...coffee..... must... get... visions... of....
titlated... RC.... out... of .... brain....... :)
|8.26.05 @ 11:03AM|#
From my experience the gays in the Navy only ran into
trouble when they tried to be something else, say, something manly
like bosuns or gunnery mates.
thoreau, you're the physicist.... why don't you write a monograph
on the decay of gay bosons?
*ducks soon-to-be oncoming tomatoes*
|8.26.05 @ 11:19AM|#
Jesse,
Thanks for the heads up...although now I feel like a dumbass.
Should have read closer (or rather more closely)
|8.26.05 @ 11:54AM|#
Man, the USCG NEVER gets love. No cool movies. No cool
anything.
What about Here Comes the Coast Guard with actor Troy
McClure?
It would require that EVERY (or at least most) of the posts by
indignant persons include their political affiliation, which I
think is extremely unlikely - though not impossible.
I made this as a snarky suggestion on the GOP pork thread from
yesterday. Would we require this of sock puppets?
|8.26.05 @ 12:46PM|#
Man, the USCG NEVER gets love. No cool movies. No cool
anything.
While the movie based on Peter Benchley's "The Island" is pretty
craptacular (1980 starring Michael Caine, not 2005 starring Obiwan
Kenobi...err, Ewan McGregor), the USCG did cruise to the rescue. I
think they got their butts kicked, though.
|8.26.05 @ 1:49PM|#
cgee,
The fair Coast Guard boys do indeed get their butt's all but sliced
off.
However, I think they redeem themselves at the end of "Captain Ron"
by rescuing Martin Short's family along with Kurt Russell's title
character.
IMHO, BTW, a much better film than "The Island".
|8.26.05 @ 5:29PM|#
Would reasonoids really champion a pop-culture burst of
excitement for the USCG given their WoD water-carrier role?
And in the interest of equal time, what about the other two
uniformed services: the Public Health Service (beyond
www.drkoop.com) and the NOAA Corps (though, did I read a story in
Analog about NOAA Corps hurricane research pilots 10 years
ago)?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Uniformed_Services
Of course, the Air Force had plenty of screen fun in Dr
Strangelove.
|8.26.05 @ 8:22PM|#
"a good argument to bring back the draft"
What a sorry excuse for a libertarian website this is getting to
be! Military conscription is nothing but a polite (and dishonest)
phrase for outright slavery. Always was. Always will be. I hope to
Hell this country never has a draft again!
"Shellbacks" Now there's a term I haven't heard in a goodly number
of years...that and the word "Pollywog". Yes, we Shellbacks know
who we are. I just wonder if Bush's prick of an ol'man ever became
one? or John Kerry, the Viet Nam video star? I never cared for
Jimmy Carter's politics, but I'd bet he went through the ceremony,
if he got the chance.
When I was in the Navy, medical corpsmen were called Hospital
Corpsman, (twenty years before, they had been known as Pharmacist
Mates.) Don't know if any were homosexuals, but I know that most of
them were pretty brave dudes. You see, the Marines had no medics,
so they were always assigned a Navy Corpsman. There's more than one
jarhead around today that can thank a Hospital Corpsman for saving
his ass. During Nam they used to pull two guys out of every Navy
basic training company to go play Marine with a nice red cross
target on their backs.
|8.26.05 @ 10:52PM|#
What a sorry excuse for a libertarian website this is
getting to be! Military conscription is nothing but a polite (and
dishonest) phrase for outright slavery. Always was. Always will be.
I hope to Hell this country never has a draft again!
Just having a bit of fun, ya silly bitch. I do find there is a lot
of ignorance about how things actually work in the military,
though.
Out of the navy, or out of the closet?
Sorry jc just out of the Navy.
|8.27.05 @ 1:48AM|#
"Just having a bit of fun,ya silly bitch!"
I'm not silly. And I'm not a bitch. Nor am I or was I, one of those
"medical corpsmen" you spoke of. I guess you'll just have to look
elsewhere for your "fun", Lecher...Fletcher,...whatever your name
is. Just keep on truckin'...
|8.28.05 @ 2:52PM|#
Avast! Reason-- back up a few items to
Friday Fun Link: Masonic Surrealism
In which the 1930 DeMoulin Bros. & Co. catalog of "Burlesque
and Side Degree Specialties... " links innocent readers to a
milestone in the epic history of Naval Defamation :
http://www.phoenixmasonry.org/masonicmuseum/demoulin/jewish_and_swiss_naval_battle.html
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