Tim Cavanaugh | May 10, 2005
Does free will exist if you need to accept Jesus and swear off sex with animals to use it? Woefully underrated straight man Alan Colmes gets an anti-abortion zealot to admit (without much prodding) not only that he had sex with a donkey, but that this was more than just a case of a few bad apples. Transcript here, audio here—and if Assanova's telling the truth about how widespread this practice is, maybe farm subsidies aren't such a bad idea.
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Holy crap!
That was stunning. I'm going to go home now and never, ever talk to
a farmer or his offspring again.
Yuck!
OK, I guess this is another data point in favor of the theory
that one's political ideology represents that which you are most
afraid of. From The Volokh Conspiracy, about two years ago:
"[snip]...And after reading the full transcript of Rick Santorum's
remarks to the AP about homosexuality, it occurred to me that
there's also a fine line between Christian conservative and
porn-king.
Say what you will about Teddy and Barney and the rest of the
liberal standard-bearers on the Hill, I don't think any of them has
ever brought up "man on dog" sex in an on-the-record
interview.
[This] reminds me of a conversation I once had with a senior Cato
official. (Not trying to be mysterious, just don't know whether the
comments were meant for public consumption.) He started off by
noting that it took a certain kind of mindset to, when confronted
with libertarian ideas, immediately spring to the question "What
about a man humping a dead boy dog? Shouldn't that be illegal?" And
he'd run into this sort of thing a lot, had had more conversations
about necrophelia than seemed remotely in order. And he hadn't been
having that conversation with northern liberals.
He went on to generalize this to a "secret sin" theory of
politics-- that people form their political views on the basis of a
generalization of their own deepest darkests. (This, by the way, is
something like the method Hobbes defends, though that fact didn't
come up in conversation.) So: if you think it's only the law that
keeps you from plunging into a life of full-time sexual depravity
and debauchery, you become a moralistic conservative. If you think
it's only the law that keeps you from becoming Ebeneezer Scrooge
and screwing the poor just for the sheer sadistic joy of it, you
become a lefty. And if you look inward and detect a craving for
power, you generalize that to everyone else and become a
libertarian. The moral was that people should listen to
libertarians, believe them, follow their policy recommendations--
and not elect them.
This won't bear too much scrutiny as a general theory, but every so
often something reminds me of it; and there's clearly a little
something there. UPDATE: Sheesh-- while I was sleeping, many people
proceeded to try to make this bear lots of scrutiny. Let me
reaffirm that, while it's true that the Marshall piece reminded me
of this and it's true that the conversation took place as reported,
I have no real commitment to the truth of the underlying claim. I
do tend toward pessimistic politics, so I like to have a thought
like this one floating around in the face of equally simplistic
notions "libertarians must believe that everyone's naturally good"
and "left-liberals must believe that governing brings out the wise
and virtuous in people." But the reduction of political
philosophies to bumper stickers, pro or con, is the antithesis of
what I've chosen to do for a living..."
There is no direct link to the post, but you can get to at the
bottom of this page:
http://volokh.com/2003_04_27_volokh_archive.html
nobody - I could probably go along with that.
It's like when I was in HS and some dumb assholes would be calling
me "a fag" for wearing black clothes and a little mascara (goth
stage) and my friends and I would wonder if it wasn't because they
were afraid they were gay themselves. Cuz for some reason, I was
usually hanging around with chicks more than a lot of these
assholes (although that would be a generalisation).
Nobody -- that Volokh post is great! I've had similar thoughts
for quite some time, albeit not so well thought out. My version:
That which you get most worked up about in society is that which
you fear most in yourself. I began mulling this over some years
ago, when the anti-pornography-crusader county prosecutor of St.
Louis County got oh-so-ironically busted for soliciting
prostitution. And this was not long after televangelist Jimmy
Bakker had his sex scandal.
Does this apply to me? I used to be a conservative, but from a a
pro-freedom, anti-totalitarian (anti-USSR) angle. Now I'm a
libertarian -- an anarcho-capitalist, in fact. And I admit I used
to be a bit of a control freak. Not the kind who enjoys ordering
people around* -- I'm too much of a loner to enjoy the
responsibility -- but more the type who thinks "if it's going to be
done right, I've got to do it myself." Although I've eased up on
that quite a bit the past few years.
*(Except maybe in play. I once met a woman who claimed to enjoy
"being told what to do" ... well, you know.)
Deep in my inner fantasies, though, I'm probably an Evil Overlord.
I mean, if I were an actor, that's the kind of part I'd like to
play. Bwa-ha-ha-ha!
So: Today I'm an anarcho-capitalist! Bwa-ha-ha-ha! And someday --
so shall you all be! I command it! Bwa-ha-ha!
I'm certain that we tend to view things we ourselves can't
handle to be things other people can't handle either.
There's also an old saying or proverb that goes something like:
"That which we accuse others of is nearly always true of
ourselves."
Often times, the only reason we can tell certain people are up to
... certain things, is because we've been up to them ourselves, and
we know and understand all the signs, the behavior patterns,
mannerisms and other subtleties of it.
"being told what to do"...well,you know
Actually, I don't know about that specifically, but I'd rather hear
your story than read about someone boffing a burro. :>
"I'm going to go home now and never, ever talk to a farmer or
his offspring again."
Now, now. Don't let Horsley tarnish your image of all farmers. Most
are too busy listening to Paul Harvey to stud their livestock.
Georgians might be an exception.
Christians like to brag about how awful they used to be, and this guy's whole point is that people are insane and need to be told what to do. It didn't sound like he was lying, but it's certainly possible.
Last night, anti-abortion extremist Neal Horsley was a guest
on The Alan Colmes Show, a FOX News radio program. The topic was an
interesting one - whether or not an internet service provider
should allow Horsley to post the names of abortion doctors on his
website.
Which has what, exactly, to do with Horsley's deviant sexual
behavior?
I hate to throw a damp blanket onto our latest Christian-bashing
feeding frenzy, but even if every single pro-lifer in the country
is clandestinely copulating with animals, relatives, and bathtub
faucets, that doesn't mean they're wrong about abortion.
WRT the idea that libertarians secretly lust for power, and
therefore assume everyone else does--there's an opposite spin on
that: I'm fairly certain that I am *NOT* fit to decide how someone
else can best order his or her own life.
In other words, I think I'd make a bad President (or Senator, or
judge), so I assume everyone else would, too.
I find it more than a little ironic that many of the activists who fight for people's right to choose to engage in certain behavior are now making fun of a man for engaging in a certain sexual practice.
A right-winger having sex with a donkey isn't so different from a right-winger having sex with another right-winger, for heavens sake. Intellectual compatibility covers a lot of sins
Yeah, but if Kerry were president, it'd be worse...all this
would be legal!
Hey, come to think of it, I wish I'd known that earlier...
Alan - I just pissed myself laughing at your post. Holy shit am I gonna steal that.
Crash- I believe there's a difference between kinky sex amongst
consenting adults, and molesting critters.
Unless of course, it's a talking horse.
I find it more than a little ironic that many of the
activists who fight for people's right to choose to engage in
certain behavior are now making fun of a man for engaging in a
certain sexual practice.
We support the rights of consenting adults to engage in whatever
mutual behavior they wish to. If children do not possess the mental
capacity to make their own sexual decisions, then how is a donkey,
with far inferior mental capacities, able to consent? Besides,
libertarians believe that you should have the right, not that this
right should absolve you of any criticism or ridicule. Fucking
donkeys is still well within the bounds of what is tauntable.
"Fucking donkeys is still well within the bounds of what is
tauntable."
And to think that just a few days ago, people made such a fuss
about Mrs. Bush's jerking-off-horses joke...
Mo,
Sexually assaulting a donkey violates no one's rights, since
donkeys don't have any (you can legally kill them after all), so
I'm afraid ass-rape would be legal in Libertopia.
When I was just a wee thing, like in 7th grade or so, I read The
Last Picture Show; and yes, 7th grade is waaay too young to read
The Last Picture Show (my mother was a Nazi about the movies I
watched, but paid no attention to my reading material). Anyway, one
of the earliest scenes in the book, if not the very first scene, is
about lonely small town high schoolers humping heifers and horses.
Totally freaked me out and to this day I've not read another Larry
McMurtry novel. Altho I intend to get around to Lonesome Dove one
day. Anyway, I'm not going to read the Colmes transcript - just too
icky.
Oh all right, one more thing. Many years later at LSU one of my
friends was a brilliant-but-sheltered (12 years with the nuns in
New Orleans) young lady - she completely skipped all freshman and
most sophomore classes and basically started off as a junior (quite
bright, is what I'm saying). Upon hearing the rumor (probably true)
that the Dekes (a frat) included donkey boinking in their
initiation rites, Mary-whoosit exclaimed "Oh the poor donkey!!!
What if she gets pregnant!!!!"
Ok, that's all the man-beast lovin I'm gonna think about or post
about tonight.
Possibly legal, definitely mockable.
It saddens me that we as a species can't seem to get over the
could/should distinction.
crimethink: there do seem to be some pro-animal-rights libertrarians: http://www.strike-the-root.com/4/graham/graham1.html
Q: Why don't Republicans have sex?
A: Who ever heard of a good piece of elephant?
Thank you, be here all week...
Crimethink,
Maybe they should change the title of this post to Ad Hominem, Ad
Infinitim.
That said, someone has seriously posed this question to me: why is
bestiality wrong? After some back and forth, I realized the best I
could come up with is that it's totally gross, but that's enough
for me.
totally gross does it for me as well. again, mockable. dunno if
i'd bother arresting someone for,donkey punching a donkey, as it
were.
there used to be this guy on the a train who sold peanuts for a
walk in detox center in east new york. his tagline always was "i
smoked crack for 15 years, and then i found jesus."
not a selling point.
"dunno if i'd bother arresting someone for,donkey punching a
donkey, as it were."
dhex, you win the prize for best comment on this subject....
Well, I can think of at least one reason against
bestiality.
Animal-to-human disease transmission. We already have avian flu
problems due to living in close quarters with chickens. There is
also the potential origin of AIDS, which probably came from the
blood of monkeys slaughtered for food in Africa (and of course,
that's probably not all the poachers did).
Plus the fact that it's an animal and you are a human being with a
different set of elaborate social and moral qualities, perhaps
another type of animal as we are constantly reminded of by
biologists, but nonetheless another species with little hope of
cross-breeding. ;)
Wait-- hold on-- I take that back. The cross-breeding has already
begun.
"I hate to throw a damp blanket onto our latest
Christian-bashing feeding frenzy, but even if every single
pro-lifer in the country is clandestinely copulating with animals,
relatives, and bathtub faucets, that doesn't mean they're wrong
about abortion."
No, boinking your cow Bessie doesn't prove that you're
wrong about abortion, but it doesn't necessarily mean that you're a
philosophical genius either.
...but that kind of sexual maladaptation must be indicative of
somethin'!
Somehow, when we were all learning to be gay friendly, we lost the
word "pervert", which seems like it could come in handy in a case
like this. Now don't get me wrong, I completely support gay
marriage. ...And I don't care if the PETA people picket my house
for sayin' this, but I don't think this guy should go to jail or
anything for doin' this.
...but he is a pervert, and, as we all used to know, redneck
perverts are funny!
You know, I would channel Rick Santorum, but I just don't think
it's even necessary here.
I mean, damn!
Even more shocking? The fact that Alan Colmes actually put a guest
on the defensive.
By the way, I don't think I believe the story anyway...
...People from other places don't get it, but a lot of the time,
people from the south just tell stories to make other people laugh.
Really, it's a cultural thing, and well, to my ear, this story just
rings that way.
There's nothin' funnier to people from the south, than when people
from somewhere else believe some crazy story they made up on the
spot. I don't know, maybe it's true--but I doubt it.
Boy: Daddy, what's that bad man doing to my donkey?
Father: That's not just any man, son. That's Hitler. And he's
fucking your donkey.
This reminds me of the David Cross bit about the sodomy case in Texas, where some state senators wanted to make it so that it was illegal to have gay sex with another man, but legal to have sex with a dog.
"Then just give em' a good ol' LEGAL Texas dog-fuckin'! Oh, whoah, officer, officer, whoah whoah, what's that? No, sir, no, they're dogs. No, I know, it must have looked funny from out there...the sun kinda hits it funny, makes it look like a guy, but...no, these are dogs. Huh? No, they're all straight."
I grew up on a farm in Georgia and can unequivocally testify
that neither I nor anyone of my acquaintance copulated with any
non-human animals. Although my parents never sat me down and had
the "don't screw the livestock chat", it never occurred to me to do
so. (Come to think of it, we never had the "don't eat people chat"
either, and I have never been tempted to cannibalism). It is not
considered a normal rite of passage and is generally considered
immoral, albeit hilarious. The pride that the interviewee displayed
in his bestial leanings was unusual and renders him, IMO, unfit to
serve as a pet sitter.
It does not impair his qualifications to advocate a coercive
anti-abortion policy. I think that donkey lovers are born that
way.
"I hate to throw a damp blanket onto our latest
Christian-bashing feeding frenzy, but even if every single
pro-lifer in the country is clandestinely copulating with animals,
relatives, and bathtub faucets, that doesn't mean they're wrong
about abortion."
...and it isn't just the copulating with barnyard animals
crowd.
Just because a guy likes to wear panty hose on his head or likes to
dress up in a chicken suit while he's doin' it or even if a guy
just likes to walk around in a diaper just because, well that
doesn't mean he's wrong on the abortion issue.
Just because a grown man is in an incestuous but mutually
consensual relationship with his grandmother and likes to burn
himself with matches, well that doesn't mean he's wrong on the
abortion issue either.
...And just because a guy's collected a small library of books on
the subject of homeopathic proctology and breeds teddy bear
hamsters for obvious reasons, well, it would be a real non-sequitur
to assume that he's wrong on the abortion issue just because of
that.
And just because someone's the kind of pervert who thinks that what
happened at Abu Gharib wasn't really torture, or who gets their
jollys goin' on the internet and arguing that "combatants" aren't
covered by the Conventions, nope, even if someone does that, it
doesn't mean that he's wrong on the abortion issue.
...but that seems like a strange point to make, doesn't it?
Speaking as a Georgian, i'd like to point out that he does NOT represent my state and our normal copulation activities! Please tell me he was joking!
Can't speak for Georgia, but every good New England farmboy knows to do the livestock cuz pumpin' the produce can be hazardous to your health.
SP,
WV is a southern state -- and a redneck one at that? Hmm, my Civil
War knowledge might be a little rusty, but I'm pretty sure they
were in the Union...
Ken Schultz,
The point shouldn't have to be made. And it wouldn't, were it not
for the fact that any moral fault discovered in a prominent
pro-lifer is automatically used as an "argument" against the
pro-life side of the debate.
Yes, of course West Virginia is a Southern state. The South isn't defined by the political makeup of the Confederacy, for God's sake.
SP,
OK, then what is the south defined by, since you also left out MD,
DE, and KY, which are actually further south than WV and were all
slave states..
Bush giving handjobs to horses, anti-abortion extremists raping
donkeys ... this sounds like a job for PETA.
Crimethink,
Just as one should knock spoiled, urban dwellers who do things like
join PETA as having a demented worldview, I think it's fair to
criticize some peoples' "provincial" outlook which is often tied to
ignorance. Some of my favorite people are Southerners, but John
Cougar Mellencamp and those who romaticize the family farm and
small town vis-a-vis the city are overrated.
"The point shouldn't have to be made. And it wouldn't, were
it not for the fact that any moral fault discovered in a prominent
pro-lifer is automatically used as an "argument" against the
pro-life side of the debate."
I get it. ...and just because I don't do any of the things I
mentioned doesn't necessarily mean that I'm right about leaning
pro-Life.
"Yes, of course West Virginia is a Southern state. The South
isn't defined by the political makeup of the Confederacy, for God's
sake."
West Virginia is a southern state because it's east of the states
that border the Mississippi River and south of the Mason Dixon
line.
...although the state's lofty status as a southern state was surely
tainted by the unconstitutional method of its creation and its
tacit support of the rape of our most beautiful state of which it
was once a part.
Personally, the definition of a southern state being one of or east
of the states that border the Mississippi River is important to me
because it means that no, Texas is not a southern state. In fact,
as I've written many times before, if they want to leave the Union
like West Virginia left the State of Virginia, I say we let 'em
go.
Ken,
Well, by that definition AR and LA aren't southern states either,
and parts of Illinois, Indiana, and Ohio are south of the M-D line.
Also, part of WV is further north than the line, indeed at the same
latitude as Pittsburgh.
I guess the South is like geographical jazz.
"Well, by that definition AR and LA aren't southern states
either..."
Both Arkansas and Louisiana border the Mississippi River.
"...and parts of Illinois, Indiana, and Ohio are south of the
M-D line."
...So is Arizona, is there some dispute about Indiana and Ohio
being in the South?
Here's a quick link in regards to Mason Dixon:
http://geography.about.com/library/weekly/aa041999.htm
Based on everything posted here, I've come to the conclusion that the only southern state in the Union is Maine. And now I must lie down for a little while.
"That which we accuse others of is nearly always true of
ourselves."
Ok, which one of you commenters ripped a fart, I know one of you
did it!
"I hate to throw a damp blanket onto our latest
Christian-bashing feeding frenzy, but even if every single
pro-lifer in the country is clandestinely copulating with animals,
relatives, and bathtub faucets, that doesn't mean they're wrong
about abortion."
When I debated the merits of pot legalization with one of those
preachin' bible thumpers on the college campus, I was told that
since I engage and defend an activity deemed wrong by mainstream
society, I therefore had no credibility on debating mainstream
issues. He went on to tell the gathered crowd that people like
myself who participate in sinful and illegal behavior carry the
tongue of the devil and will lead you, the innocent bystander, into
the same extreme behavior. Of course, that only made him an extreme
wacko in the eyes of the crowd.
If this bible thumpers logic runs rampant among his peers, Horsley
should be crucified by his own.
"Modernized Southern States Where Such Humor Is Like A Non
Sequitor: Virginia, North Carolina, Georgia, Tennessee"
Only speaking for GA since I haven't lived in NC or TN (been in VA
now for a few months)....it all depends on where you are. If GA to
you is metro Atlanta, which is now full of people from all across
the country, then your definition of "modernized" is accurate. Now,
if you venture into the "real" state of GA (south GA for
example)it's much more rural and more like what you probably
consider "unmodernized."
The Fox News site doesn't include the poignant final moments of the broadcast, when Alan Colmes and Neal Horsely joined together for an impromptu duet of that timeless ballad "There Will Never Be Another Ewe."
Oh, brother, cue the muted trumpet for that last joke -- wah, wah, wah, wahhhhhh.....
Which has what, exactly, to do with Horsley's deviant sexual
behavior?
You see those a-boats out in the harbor? I build every one of doze
boats! And do they call me Enzo the Boatbuilder? No. You do all
that, and a-nobody call you boatbuilder.
You see that palace up that a-hill? I build a-that palace myself!
And do they call me Enzo the Builder of Palaces? No. You do all
that, and nobody call you builder of palaces.
You see this eight-a-lane suspension bridge we're driving over? I
build this bridge myself! And do they call me Enzo the
Bridgebuilder? No. You do all that, and nobody call you
bridgebuilder.
But you fuck one a-pig...
Personally, I define a "Southern state" as any state in which, if you're at a restaurant and order ice tea, they serve you sweet stuff that tastes like sugar-water unless you ask them not to.
Couple of thoughts about West Virginia: it is indeed a curious
place. Historically, its sympathies have always been divided
between north and south. On the one hand, it's the only state
created by presidential fiat (alone of all southern states except
possibly Kentucky, Lincoln is revered in West Virginia). On da
other hand, Stonewall Jackson was born near what is now
Clarksville. He has his share of fans in the Mountain
State as well.
One other thought, for what it's worth. Kinky Friedman once pointed
out that the area that covers West Virginia (or, if you will,
western Virginia) is among the few regions the Indians didn't put
up much of a fight over. There's a theory that they considered it
cursed ground. (Maybe a high concentration of burial sites, who
knows?) In general, a bad karma kind of place. God knows it was for
Hank Williams, Senior; Hank died there...
Well, that would be an interesting anecdote, if stuff like "cursed ground" and "karma" actually existed.
But people believe in stuff like "cursed ground" and
"karma", and those beliefs cause them to behave in ways
that you and I might consider irrational. To the believer this
behavior is perfectly appropriate. So I found the anecdote
interesting.
Now consider the number of people who voted for Bush or Kerry
because they believe in the efficacy of their parties'
policies. Talk about medieval superstition.
Yeah, you guys are all correct. I am a conservative Christian. I
vote Repupublican. I don't think homosexuals need any special
rights because of their sexual choices. (Ohhhhh, maybe I am a
closet gay.) Wow, you guys are so smart. Whatever.
So in other words, to use your same logic. If a gay guy is
continually harping on his own lack of rights, always in the face
of straights, he must be secretly dreaming about being straight
himself. Gotcha.
Can I just make something clear? This thread is about fucking
donkeys.
How hard is this to figure out? Donkey fucking is a really
straightforward topic.
I say again, this thread is about fucking donkeys.
If you have a problem with this thread, that can only mean you fuck
donkeys.
Paul, you fuck donkeys.
Crimethink, you fuck donkeys.
If you see any scenario in which fucking donkeys isn't the point of
this thread, if you see donkey fucking as no big deal but merely as
a code for whatever boring political cause you're interested in,
you fuck donkeys.
Tim Higgins, you fuck donkeys.
Mason, Dixon, you fuck donkeys.
In my own defense, I'd like to point out that if you look up in
the thread, you'll see that I tried to keep to the donkey
fucking issue, but people kept pulling me in with questions about
the relationship between donkey fucking and the abortion issue,
donkey fucking and the make up of the South, etc.
...Now this is where it gets interesting. Most of us know about
Godwin's law--that all threads eventually lead to a mention of
Hitler or the Nazis. I may be the first to notice a corollary
trend, namely, that all discussions of donkey fucking eventually
lead to a discussion of whether we should kick Texas out of the
Union.
Having identified this corollary to Godwin's Law, I confess I'd
rather it wasn't named after me personally. I suggest we call it
the Horsley Corollary.
OK, so this involves Texas, and it does change the subject from
donkey-fucking. But just a little.
Paul Krassner's *Confessions of a Raging, Unconfined Nut*: "Indeed,
one of LBJ's favorite jokes was about a popular Texas sheriff
running for reelection. His opponents had been trying
unsuccessfully to think of a good campaign issue to use against
him. Finally one man suggested spreading 'a rumor that he fucks
pigs.' Another protested, 'You know he doesn't do that.' 'I know,'
said the first man, 'But let's make the son of a bitch *deny*
it.'"
In my own defense, I'd like to point out that if you look up
in the thread, you'll see that I tried to keep to the donkey
fucking issue, but people kept pulling me in with
questions
Oh, I know how it is. Lampwick and all the other boys are tempting
you, saying, "Come on, we'll drink beer and play pool on Pleasure
Island! Don't worry about that braying you hear! We're just talking
about the abortion debate and the composition of the South! Hey,
what do you think of Texas as the Lone Star Republic, and does the
federal government have the right to coerce membership in the
Union?" Such intriguing questions! You're feeling dazed and
lightheaded just thinking about it! And all the while that sound of
heehawing is getting louder, more tempting...
Wide is the gate and broad the way, my little brothers and sisters,
that leads to jackassery!
http://x2.putfile.com/5/13002034580.jpg
I Love That Donkey Feeling
sung to the tune of You Lost That Loving Feeling
My love for you means more than a passionate kiss.
That's why I'm right behind you watching your hairy tail
swish.
Oh yes you know what I'm saying.
This is love I hear you braying.
I love that donkey feeling.
Oh, that donkey feeling.
I love that donkey feeling.
Now it's gone, gone, gone
Whoa-oh
I have no love for chickens, horses, or goats.
And our dates only cost me a few bags of oats.
You say there's nothing between us.
But baby, I love that Equus Asinus.
I love that donkey feeling
Oh, that donkey feeling
I love that donkey feeling
Now it's gone, gone, gone
And I can't go on
No-oh-oh
Baby baby I love it down here on the farm
And you know I'd never cause you no harm
We have a love...
A love...
A love you can only find in the hay
So don't...
Don't...
Don't you dare say nay
Bring back that donkey feeling
Oh, that donkey feeling
Bring back that donkey feeling
Now it's gone...gone...gone...
And I can't go on...
No-oh-oh...
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