The End of American Religio-Culture Wars?

Ronald Bailey | April 9, 2009

Robertson as satan DC Examiner political editor Chris Stirewalt declares that the Right has surrendered in the culture wars:

...the resurgence of traditional Christian mores and culture that began in the late 1970s has ended.

Stirewalt is corrrect. Once hot button Christian conservative issues are fading away:

There were some raised eyebrows when the White House sought out gay, lesbian, bisexual and transgender parents to bring their children to the Executive Mansion for the annual Easter celebration as a show of inclusiveness. But there wasn’t the kind of shock and outrage that would have greeted the move a decade ago.

Similarly, the fact that gay marriage is now a foregone conclusion is met with mostly a shrug. With Vermont’s move to pass a law allowing the practice, every state will eventually have to acknowledge the legality of gay vows administered elsewhere. Keeping local restrictions will seem pointless and out of date when the laws actually do nothing to prevent the practice.
In much the same way, changes to the way the government treats abortion and embryos provoked some quibbling but mostly silence.

In April last year, I argued that the Fourth Great Awakening was over and that America was moving into a "New Age of Reason." Historians recognize "Great Awakenings" as periods of rising religious enthusiasm that provoke spasms of political activity in the name of enforcing Christian morals. The fourth such spasm began in the 1970s and, as Stirewalt notes, is just about played out. In my article I cited evidence for the end of this most recent awakening including:

(1) Congress' interviention in the tragic Terry Schiavo case polls showed Americans disapproved of Washington’s intervention by almost 2 to 1 in 2005;

(2) Animus towards gays is receding. The Supreme Court's 2003 decision finding sodomy laws unconstitutional was supported by 74 percent Americans. The same poll also found Americans opposed state laws regulating private, sexual relations between opposite-sex married couples (87 percent) and same-sex domestic partners (82 percent). In 1996 only 27 percent of Americans approved of same-sex marriages. By May 2007, 46 percent did, and 62 percent of those under age 35 favored them.

(3) Attempts to restrain biomedical progress in the name of religious values are receding too. By 2007 a Gallup poll found that 60 percent of Americans favor embryonic stem cell research.

(4) The Christian marketing Barna Group finds that only 60 percent of 16-to-29-year-olds identify themselves as Christians. By contrast, 77 percent of Americans over age 60 call themselves Christian. That is “a momentous shift,” the firm’s president told the Ventura County Star. “Each generation is becoming increasingly secular.”

Stirewalt concludes:

Newsweek is trumpeting “The Decline and Fall of Christian America” in a cover line provocatively arranged in the shape of a cross — the symbol of godly sacrifice that Christians will venerate Friday.

Not long ago, writing off Christian America would have caused wide offense. But the tenets of the faith that gave America its moral bearings and a sense of spiritual destiny don’t arouse much passion anymore.

I more hopefully concluded by citing lawyer Clarence Darrow's remarks at the 1908 Personal Liberty League's meeting:

“The world is suffering more today from the good people who want to mind other men’s business than it is from the bad people who are willing to let everybody look after their own individual affairs.” That has been true for a long time now, but we may finally be heading toward a better world—one where Americans are increasingly willing to live and let live.

Whole Examiner op/ed here. Read my "New Age of Reason: Is the Fourth Great Awakening Coming to a Close" article here.

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ktc2|4.9.09 @ 11:15AM|#

I sure hope you're right. It's way past time for these bronze age myths to fade back into the mists of time, recalled only in the addled minds of their adherents and history classes.

Could the nightmare finally be ending? Personally, I doubt it. At least, not for long.

Naga Sadow|4.9.09 @ 11:16AM|#

Hmmmmm. Nope, it's just gone underground for now. Cultural cycle, Ron. Give it some time.

The Angry Optimist|4.9.09 @ 11:16AM|#

not that I'm a supporter of religion, but I wouldn't proclaim the "New Age of Reason" just yet. It's not like people are supporting stem-cell research and gay marriage because they've thought it through; people are still by and large governed by their whims and emotions.

Naga Sadow|4.9.09 @ 11:18AM|#

ktc2,

People will just invent new religions or bring back the old with new additions. Human nature, dude. Hell, atheism is almost a religion now. Belief structure and everything. Kinda fascinating actually.

JP|4.9.09 @ 11:19AM|#

OK. Now, when will the new age of economic reason begin?

Naga Sadow|4.9.09 @ 11:20AM|#

TAO!!! You're back! Bro, where ya been? Has the ban hammer been lifted from your neck?

|4.9.09 @ 11:20AM|#

I'd be more encouraged if the people that were passing up religion weren't picking up socialism in the process. They still want to make and impose rules to guide us all, they just don't have an invisible sky daddy to go with it.

BakedPenguin|4.9.09 @ 11:20AM|#

Naga's right: these things come in cycles. I suspect what looks like increasing secularism is mostly a desire to sleep in and watch the game on Sunday.

|4.9.09 @ 11:24AM|#

Naga and Baked: Yes, religious enthusiasm goes in cycles, but (if the historians are right) generally there is a 30 or so year breather between spasms. Enjoy the new one.

robc|4.9.09 @ 11:26AM|#

Ronald,

one nit-pickity detail. Generally, the great awakenings are FOLLOWED by periods of political activity.

So, the Great Awakening ended roughly about when the political push started happening. I think there was some overlap, but I think GA4 ended about 15 years ago.

KT|4.9.09 @ 11:28AM|#

If Christians acted more like Christ instead of how they actually do act, perhaps their numbers would be swelling rather than thinning.

But nah, it's probably the gays' fault.

Naga Sadow|4.9.09 @ 11:28AM|#

Ron,

In this Brave New World of teh intertubez I would say the moral scolding timing will be cut down to 15 years max. Assuming that we are indeed at the end of a moral scolding era. Time tends to make fools of us all, but I got my fingers crossed.

|4.9.09 @ 11:30AM|#

robc: Could I suggest you read my article?

The Angry Optimist|4.9.09 @ 11:33AM|#

Has the ban hammer been lifted from your neck?

Unfortunately, no. The ban still exists on my home IP. Whatevs.

I'd be more encouraged if the people that were passing up religion weren't picking up socialism in the process. They still want to make and impose rules to guide us all, they just don't have an invisible sky daddy to go with it.

Just so, Mr. Nick, just so. However, at least those people can still be convinced otherwise...every try convincing a true believer? They're willfully ignorant.

Citizen Nothing|4.9.09 @ 11:34AM|#

KT, like Twain (I think) said, there was only one true Christian in history, and they executed him 2,000 years ago.

Citizen Nothing|4.9.09 @ 11:35AM|#

You really got the hammer, TAO?
What'd you do?

|4.9.09 @ 11:35AM|#

Unfortunately, no. The ban still exists on my home IP. Whatevs.

What? How did I miss this? Can someone point me to the bannination thread?

Abdul|4.9.09 @ 11:36AM|#

Nothing energizes the opposition like having one's antagonists in a seat of power. If Obama and a democratic congress push past what most people are willing to live with (stem cell research) and do fringe-y things (the Freedom of Choice Act would nullify state parental notification laws about abortion), the pendulum would swing the other way.

Naga Sadow|4.9.09 @ 11:36AM|#

SugarFree,

He exposed LoneWacko as Chris Kelly. I lost the details after that.

|4.9.09 @ 11:38AM|#

JP | April 9, 2009, 11:19am | #

"OK. Now, when will the new age of economic reason begin?"

Actually, that's dawning now. The Chicago School is finally petering out, revealing themselves to be people whose macroeconomics is cutting edge 1929.

Naga Sadow|4.9.09 @ 11:38AM|#

Ah. I remember now. He violated Reason's Terms of Service by posting LoneWacko's identity and address.

Citizen Nothing|4.9.09 @ 11:40AM|#

LoneWacko unmasked.
I await the graphic novel.

(TAO knows his address, and yet has never kicked him in the balls? Fucker deserves to be banned.)

economist|4.9.09 @ 11:41AM|#

Something important to remember: Less religion=/more reason. By and large, it just means that people are turning to other forms of irrationality.

|4.9.09 @ 11:41AM|#

the innominate one|4.9.09 @ 11:43AM|#

TAO and KT - get out of my head!

robc|4.9.09 @ 11:43AM|#

robc: Could I suggest you read my article?

Im supposed to read BEFORE I comment? That seems unlikely.

Okay, okay...I will read it I guess.

Citizen Nothing|4.9.09 @ 11:43AM|#

The Supreme Court should trade Utah recognition of polygamy for recognition of same-sex.

Naga Sadow|4.9.09 @ 11:44AM|#

Citizen Nothing,

BP made a couple of great comics about him over at Urkobold. Upcoming made for tv movie from Urkobold Studios from what I understand!

KT|4.9.09 @ 11:46AM|#

KT, like Twain (I think) said, there was only one true Christian in history, and they executed him 2,000 years ago.

Yeah, they did. And now they want to recruit our kids!

|4.9.09 @ 11:46AM|#

"people are still by and large governed by their whims and emotions."

And whatever the conventional wisdom happens to be.

jk|4.9.09 @ 11:47AM|#

TAO:
Unfortunately, no. The ban still exists on my home IP.

You have a static IP for your home Internet service?

|4.9.09 @ 11:47AM|#

That's right, all you free-market fundamentalist fucktards can go suck it. Yeah! We're in charge now, and y'all better just sit down, shut up, and enjoy the ride!

robc|4.9.09 @ 11:49AM|#

Ron,

Made it thru 2nd awakening bit of article. I see the distinction but disagree with it. I have always seen the revival periods referred to as the Great Awakenings, not including the other two periods that you and Fogel are including.

|4.9.09 @ 11:50AM|#

You better stop criticizing my plans! Your free-market fundamentalist libertard philosophy got us into this mess!

Naga Sadow | April 9, 2009, 11:38am | #
Ah. I remember now. He violated Reason's Terms of Service by posting LoneWacko's identity and address.

This raises several questions:
1) What are Reason's Terms of Service? Where can I find them.

2) How do you know if a commenter has been banned?

3) How do you know why a commenter has been banned?

4) How many roads must a man walk down before he can tell LoneWacko to shut the fuck up?

Citizen Nothing|4.9.09 @ 11:50AM|#

I still think starting a religion would be a great, recession-proof way to riches. I'm sure I could think of something compelling that's WAY more plausible than Scientology.

Naga Sadow|4.9.09 @ 11:50AM|#

Barry=Tony=Lefiti=Edward . . . this is getting difficult to keep straight. Damn you! Stick to one name that I may more easily mock your statist comments!

|4.9.09 @ 11:52AM|#

I've long believed (with no evidence, just conjecture) that if more Americans actually thought about their beliefs there would be more more agnostics and atheists than polls tend to show.

On the other hand, I believe, if more Europeans actually thought about their beliefs there would be more more believers or theists than polls tend to show.

As I say, no evidence. And if you come back with, Bartram, you're full of shit, I will certainly concede that you could very well be right.

the innominate one|4.9.09 @ 11:52AM|#

economist and Troy - you two, too

You want to know why everyone hates libertarians? Because libertarians don't look at the evidence of what their policies cause, because libertarians are RETARDED!!!

Три будет 390-T73|4.9.09 @ 11:52AM|#

Статьи хорошего вас вы, тоже проверить управлении где то. Вы это собой дизайну комнату, туда голоса полугода но вам. Был не люди каким могут, до этот раздавая работать нее, тд новые глупые кандидата вы. Три будет должен отнимет до, мнение систему всё ты. Мешают гринспана необходимо от вам, бог царь прийти поскольку не, глубже помнить две от. Поток разработчиков но дни, вас какие несложно вы. Без миров проходят горизонте их, платформу безусловно несерьёзный их тд.

Но том важно ошибки редактор, об есть компании большого над. Три тест этот какие за, руки налево начать оно на, от там себе применимы закончить. Не пора разные университет фон, биг он обеда станет уровней, те них пять качества творческую. Он опа поток использует распоряжения, шеф концентрации чрезвычайной предназначенная те. Не джоэла называть управлении две, не руки проектами те, две запустить эзотерическая программировать за. Те том почту программном, вреде нанять содержимое ты не, каким вокруг взяться те них.

Мы огонь убегай обеспечения две, плохой подумаем мог ну. Во над могу взлета содержимое, эти мы работу отнимет, забудем сомнений соответствующим мы уже. До где означает стратегии возможностей. Голоса движение запускали бы биг, том то буду называть состоянии. Те про когда несложно улучшают, про за вопрос хороша программе, шеф те совсем большого страдаете.

мнение систему всё ты!
мнение систему всё ты!
мнение систему всё ты!

Naga Sadow|4.9.09 @ 11:53AM|#

Warren,

Being an insomniac(I sleep about 4 sometimes 6 hours a day) with a 4 to 11 work hours and a girlfriend in Denver enables me to learn many intersting tid bits of info. If you would stop having a life you too could be master of these here intertubez. Choose your path wisely, grasshopper.

|4.9.09 @ 11:53AM|#

CN, try venganza.org. The Flying Spaghtetti Monster loves you. Aaargh! Go and be touched by His Noodly Goodness.

economist|4.9.09 @ 11:54AM|#

the innominate one,
What was that about?

|4.9.09 @ 11:54AM|#

While religious fervor may be cyclical in the short term (100 years or so), the long-term outlook is that it slowly is moving away from its former glory. Religion doesn't produce the world's best artists anymore. It doesn't have the best "scientists" or scholars. It can barely lead on moral issues. It isn't a viable system of laws anymore. There are no grand inquisitors or crusades. Well, crusades maybe.

I guess it depends what you mean by "traditional Christian mores and culture," but to the extent that the phrase represents personal beliefs and actions (as opposed to public policy) I'm not sure that the decline of Religious Right politics necessarily means a decline in religiosity. I'm a Christian and have many Christian friends, and pretty much all of us are against imposing our belief system on others through legislation.

I think the political ebb and flow may stem, at least in part, from the following model: 1.) Religious people perceive declining morality in the country. 2.) Religious people vote in politicians to "restore" morality. 3.) Religious people learn that the politician's idea of morality may not exactly match their own, or even if it does it's not really being implemented as they planned. 4.) Religious people realize legislating morality may not be such a good idea. And then once they forget, the cycle starts all over again.

I realize there are some people that never get past step #2, but I think enough people go through the entire cycle to bring the Religious Right from minority to majority back to minority. And I'm sure it will happen again. And I suspect the overall religiosity of our country will move (probably decline) independent of this cycle.

|4.9.09 @ 11:55AM|#

Are those the new NHS guidelines at 11:52?

The Angry Optimist|4.9.09 @ 11:56AM|#

You have a static IP for your home Internet service?

Sort of, as far as I understand it, Time Warner considers it dynamic but that in the interest of convenience they frequently assign you a number for like, six months or something.

What? How did I miss this? Can someone point me to the bannination thread?

The title of the thread is "Oddly, the Contract went to KBR". I made a spoof post with Chris Kelly's (easily found!) phone number and address (it's registered with 24ahead.com). The spoof post was deleted and my IP was banned without explanation.

Not that I care, but I do find it slightly strange that LW can show up and do nothing more but pimp his blog and refuse to respond to anybody, but I get the ban for flaming the troll.

Like I say, whatevs.

Naga Sadow|4.9.09 @ 11:56AM|#

Citizen Nothing, you fool! The more outlandish the claim, the more likely it will amass a huge following. Take free market economics as your example of what happens when you have plausible claims that can be verified by facts.

My suggestion is to simply claim to be an agent of Gaia demanding her precious stones back. Gold, silver, platinum, diamonds, etc. Path to righteousness sir!

|4.9.09 @ 11:57AM|#

Oh, and to Три будет 390-T73:

Please tell me that "мнение систему всё ты!" translates into "Ziggy Piggy!"

|4.9.09 @ 11:58AM|#

Okay, whoever's spoofing me, you're only proving the point that libertarians are stupid. You guys just can't accept that your beloved Chicago school economics caused this recession and that you are therefore responsible for the suffering of millions. You're also wrong on global warming, and will likely be responsible for the suffering of billions. I wish you guys would just shut the hell up and let the rest of us do what has to be done. And if you keep spoofing me, I will leave. I'm sick and tired of you guys mischaracterizing the position of anyone who disagrees with you.

Naga, you could just be the father of a two year old. 4-6 hours of sleep sounds about right. But the demand for my time at home is greater so I have to do my intertubing at work. One of these days I might accomplish something my company wants done.

|4.9.09 @ 12:02PM|#

You guys can't come up with a comeback, because you don't have my intellect. So fine, go sacrifice a virgin on Wall Street to appease the market. Just as long as it's one of you libertardians.

That's interesting, because LoneWacko attempted to call out my not-so-secret identity and my place of employment. He erred in his attempt, but if TAO got banned for doing that, why is LoneWacko walking tall? I don't care either way, just wondering.

|4.9.09 @ 12:03PM|#

economist - backhanded complement and attempt to be amusing which failed miserably

I left my tinfoil hat at home and several posters are reading my mind and posting my thoughts before I can

iow, I agree with you

explanation ruin any humor value, even if it was meager

Nick,
The FSM will always be a parody of religion. It will never attract true believers. I believe the next great religious movement will be another Christian schism... the LOL Cat-o-licks.

Naga Sadow|4.9.09 @ 12:05PM|#

Pro Lib,

The plot thickens.

Citizen Nothing|4.9.09 @ 12:07PM|#

Pro Lib,
"Luck...protects fools, small children and ships named Enterprise."

|4.9.09 @ 12:11PM|#

The opposition to homosexual activity has more to do with the yuck factor than religion.

The increase in gay rights corresponds with greater exposure to homosexuals. Similar to the increase minority rights.

The increase in media, university attendance and travel have done it.

What?! FSM isn't real?

Sciencedamnit.

BakedPenguin|4.9.09 @ 12:12PM|#

Pro Libertate is right. Lonewacko also thought I was spoof posting him, and tried to post my info as well. He failed only because I know enough not to have my info on ICANN.

If TAO is banned, Lonewacko should also be banned.

|4.9.09 @ 12:13PM|#

I thought I was banned once for an entire month. Turns out I had accidentally changed my handle to Episiarch and was skipping my own comments.

|4.9.09 @ 12:18PM|#

I will believe that the age of reason is upon us when I go to my first weed bar and smoke a big dooby and when the Supreme Court tells Utah that, because of the full faith and credit clause, they have to recognize Vermont same sex marriages.

AND

Washington DC respects the 2nd Admenment and stops defining a "machine gun" as any firearm capable of using a magazine greater than 10 rounds

AND

The voters of Maryland dump Omalley and Mayor Dixon.

|4.9.09 @ 12:21PM|#

Perhaps the 4th awakening is ending, but there is a looming 5th awakening among Christians who seek to use the state to achieve their goals - the "emergent church", lefty, green, "social justice" claiming Christians are slowly but surely on the rise.

These are the kids of the old religious right, who have (rightfully) rebelled against the pro-GOP, pro-war politico-religious place they grew up in. They've also (wrongly) embraced the pro-green, pro-class envy, pro-welfare pro-nanny state regime of the left.

Sigh. Why is it so hard for Christians to accept that achieving their goals (whether reducing the number of strip clubs or the "income gap") should not be done via the use of force.

Christ healed and forgave people himself; he didn't protest and lobby and try to create federal programs to do it with other people's money.

Menstrual Retardation|4.9.09 @ 12:22PM|#

"In April last year, I argued that the Fourth Great Awakening was over and that America was moving into a "New Age of Reason.""

And the Fifth Great Awakening (in 30 years) will be brought to you by sharia law.

JB|4.9.09 @ 12:22PM|#

"That has been true for a long time now, but we may finally be heading toward a better world-one where Americans are increasingly willing to live and let live."

Bullshit. More and more people want to stick their hands in my pants and get into my wallet. To pay for their mortgage, their guilt, or whatever bullshit cause-de-jour.

I don't want to be in your bedroom, but I sure as hell don't want you in my pants and in my wallet.

The Angry Optimist|4.9.09 @ 12:23PM|#

If you guys are curious, here's a post by MAX HATS responding to my spoof post (which was deleted) hier.

That's interesting, because LoneWacko attempted to call out my not-so-secret identity and my place of employment. He erred in his attempt, but if TAO got banned for doing that, why is LoneWacko walking tall?

Interesting. I was not aware that LW tried to to this to other posters.

So now I go from "meh" to "WTF"?

|4.9.09 @ 12:27PM|#

The Angry Optimist,

Ah, yes. I remember that. I was just confused because that was so long ago. I guess I just missed it.

I seem to remember that Dan T. impersonated one of the editors once. I don't think was banned for 3 months.

BakedPenguin|4.9.09 @ 12:27PM|#

FrBunny - I thought I was banned for a while. Then I turned my cookies back on.

Naga Sadow|4.9.09 @ 12:28PM|#

FrBunny,

Really? And no one noticed?

|4.9.09 @ 12:30PM|#

Uh, there are a lot of people who believe in "energy," and who consider themselves "spiritual" these days.

I'm reminded, also, of that very great South Park episode with the atheists battling each other...

The Angry Optimist|4.9.09 @ 12:31PM|#

Sigh. Why is it so hard for Christians to accept that achieving their goals (whether reducing the number of strip clubs or the "income gap") should not be done via the use of force....Christ healed and forgave people himself

Oh jeezum...why do people forget the violent acts and speeches of Jesus?

John 2:15 "And He made a scourge of cords, and drove them all out of the temple, with the sheep and the oxen; and He poured out the coins of the money changers and overturned their tables"

I could cite the "I come not to send peace, but a sword", unfruitful trees being hewn and sent into the fire, wailing and gnashing of teeth, brothers killing brothers and fathers killing sons...

You can try to portray Jesus as an earthly pacifist all you want, but he talked a lot about killing, death, war and suffering all in the name of fighting on "his side".

|4.9.09 @ 12:32PM|#

I thought I was banned once for an entire month. Turns out I had accidentally changed my handle to Episiarch and was skipping my own comments.

Ouch. He would be so outraged if he had internet service.

|4.9.09 @ 12:33PM|#

The Angry Optimist,

Make your comment a cartoon and we'll see if we can get the Bible Belt to riot.

Menstrual Retardation|4.9.09 @ 12:34PM|#

"Are those the new NHS guidelines at 11:52?"

No. I did a traslation and it's just an ad for Men Seeking Men from the Casual Encounters section of Craig's List.

The Angry Optimist|4.9.09 @ 12:35PM|#

John 15:6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

|4.9.09 @ 12:42PM|#

Really? And no one noticed?

Nah, I was kidding. It's easy to pick on Pacific-coasters before breakfast.

SugarFree, is Epi really sans-intertubes right now?

Naga Sadow|4.9.09 @ 12:44PM|#

FrBunny,

Someone claiming to be Epi is on the Pirate Bay thread. Could be an imposter, I guess.

|4.9.09 @ 12:46PM|#

HoneyBunny,

It's the final stages of his move. He's hunting for open wifi networks, so he might not be completely gone.

O EPISIARCH! my Episiarch! our fearful trip is done;
The ship has weather'd every rack, the prize we sought is won;
The port is near, the bells I hear, the people all exulting,
While follow eyes the steady keel, the vessel grim and daring:
But O heart! heart! heart!
O the bleeding drops of red,
Where on the deck my Episiarch lies,
Fallen cold and dead.

|4.9.09 @ 12:47PM|#

FrBunny | April 9, 2009, 12:13pm | #
I thought I was banned once for an entire month. Turns out I had accidentally changed my handle to Episiarch and was skipping my own comments.

nice burn, snoogans

shecky|4.9.09 @ 12:48PM|#

|4.9.09 @ 12:50PM|#

As if religion kept socialism at bay.

Nothing keeps socialism at bay.

|4.9.09 @ 12:51PM|#

[fumes]

Your time will come innominate one. My elaborate scheme for justice is lacking only one precious component, which I plan to purchase using funds from my new Nigerian Prince friend's money.

It's due any day now.

|4.9.09 @ 12:56PM|#

You will pay, Bunny. I have just a short time at this access point. But you will pay.

He's hunting for open wifi networks, so he might not be completely gone.

H&R demands certain efforts be made. I expect him to set his alarm for 04:30 to post once or twice each morning, if it won't disturb TIO's mom too much.

SNAP!

|4.9.09 @ 12:57PM|#

|4.9.09 @ 12:59PM|#

I have just a short time at this access point.

That was actually pretty cool. You're like Jason Bourne, only with more annual rainfall and an ever bigger crush on Ben Affleck.

|4.9.09 @ 1:02PM|#

Actually, I remember when LoneWacko was banned. It was back a few years ago. Don't know what got him the hammer, but when he came back his Anti-Mexican blatant bigotry rhetoric was toned down.

|4.9.09 @ 1:03PM|#

It's not TIO's mom, Bunny. It's your dad.

|4.9.09 @ 1:04PM|#

I didn't say religion kept socialism at bay. I was implying that people often expel one dogmatic belief system for another rather than no other. They can both exist simultaneously in society, and in one person's mind if they have room for that much crap.

Some might say libertarianism is such a system of beliefs, but so far I've found it far less contradictory and hypocritical than the rest of religious and economic systems.

|4.9.09 @ 1:05PM|#

Put he said he only touched me that way...

|4.9.09 @ 1:06PM|#

"Show me on the doll where Episiarch touched you."

"It be quicker to show the places he didn't."

|4.9.09 @ 1:08PM|#

Put he said he only touched me that way...

You probably believe it when guys say they love you, too.

|4.9.09 @ 1:09PM|#

"Show me on the doll where Episiarch touched you."

[Points to doll's heart]

Awww! All fixed?

|4.9.09 @ 1:14PM|#

That's better, Bunny. Much better. I'm a whore, so appealing to my vanity is a sure win.

..|4.9.09 @ 1:14PM|#

gay, lesbian, bisexual and transgender parents

What, no asexuals? That's discrimination.

|4.9.09 @ 1:15PM|#

And they left out genderqueers.

|4.9.09 @ 1:16PM|#

Will I regret searching "genderqueers" at work?

The Angry Optimist|4.9.09 @ 1:18PM|#

No, FrBunny, I'll give you a quick definition:

"Genderqueer (or "Genderfuck") = Attention Whore"

High Every Body|4.9.09 @ 1:18PM|#

So fine, go sacrifice a virgin on Wall Street to appease the market.

She won't stay a virgin long past Chambers and Broadway with this bunch.

|4.9.09 @ 1:29PM|#

FrBunny,

wiki:

Genderqueer and intergender are catchall terms for gender identities other than man and woman. People who identify as genderqueer may think of themselves as being both male and female, as being neither male nor female, or as falling completely outside the gender binary. Some wish to have certain features of the opposite sex and not all characteristics; others want it all.

And genderfuckers are people who don't outward resemble the gender they are, but do not dress that way as a sexual fetish (cross-dressers) or as a prelude to gender reassignment surgery (transgender.)

|4.9.09 @ 1:34PM|#

Hermaphrodites - it's the best of both worlds!

|4.9.09 @ 1:35PM|#

Episiarch,

So, how is Seattle?

Good grief. In my day we just called them the Drama Club. NTTAWWT, etc.

|4.9.09 @ 1:38PM|#

As if religion kept socialism at bay.

As if there was ever any conflict between religion and socialism.

I take it noone here has ever met an English or Canadian socialist.

If you ever get into a discussion with one odds are it won't be long before they tell you "you are your brothers keeper." And that will only be the beginning of the Bible quoting.

In fact the central figures in socialism have been Christians and expecially evangelicals.

Only in America where the conflict over evolution, sex ed in schools and abortion split the busybodies into the secular and religious does this conflict exist.

My biggest fear is that somehow, someday the religious right and the religious left will mend fences. You think the welfare/nanny state is bad now, if those two get together your mind will boggle like it's never boggled before.

Think Jimmy Carter/Mike Huckabee/Bill Moyers/Pat Robertson all agreeing how you need to be saved...good and hard.

|4.9.09 @ 1:39PM|#

Pro Libertate,

He's left his access point for now. He's going to try and be on later.

|4.9.09 @ 1:41PM|#

SugarFree,

Do you merely keep tabs on Episiarch through a GPS chip embedded in his flesh, or do you control him directly through telepathy?

phalkor|4.9.09 @ 1:41PM|#

I never notice anything:

In my head Epi, Naga, and lmnop are all the same poster. Don't ask me to explain why, because it doesn't make sense.

Same goes for John and joe. Also MNG and TAO. Same people all of them. In fact all posters on H&R are assigned one of only four distinct voices. Conclusion: there are four people who post on H&R.

That settles it.

the innominate one|4.9.09 @ 1:42PM|#

Isaac - don't forget, the guy who developed and pushed the pledge of allegiance was a Christian socialist

|4.9.09 @ 1:44PM|#

In all fairness given the way Bill Moyers has been talking lately I maybe should not have included him.

But he sure was one of those "you are your brother's keeper" types who was going to make good and sure you got to work keeping your brother just the way he thought you should, back in the day.

|4.9.09 @ 1:45PM|#

Mr. Bartram, I think this amalgam is where we are heading. The social justice folks on the left using the Bible to convince the right minded christians that the poor need to be looked after. Those gop christians use their political savvy to help all the good taxpayers to help the poor. Anti abortionism and anti gayism is old hat. Anti poverty will be the new christian right's battle cry.

If they get everyone to pitch in, then it will be less painful to the individual, as well as being the right thing to do. God will be mighty pleased.

|4.9.09 @ 1:46PM|#

PL,

He's my Facebook Friend.

Naga Sadow, Technologically Re|4.9.09 @ 1:49PM|#

SugarFree,

What is this "Facebook" that you speak of? Is it anything like the MySpace account I never use?

|4.9.09 @ 1:50PM|#

Sugarfree,

are ya'll Tweethearts too?

Naga Sadow|4.9.09 @ 1:52PM|#

phalkor,

Don't be stupid. Epi is clearly at the top of that pyramid you created with me and lmnop. I have but a dry sense of humor. Not sure how to think of lmnop besides funny. Epi is in a league of his own.

|4.9.09 @ 1:54PM|#

Neither of us Twitter, thank you. If I want to talk about what I had for breakfast, I'll just write about it on one of my numerous blogs.

Well, this could be a good opportunity to yank the Republicans in a more libertarian direction.

With the Christian right out of the picture, they won't have to kowtow to them on abortion, gay rights, and evolution.

Libertarians ought to seize the chance.

|4.9.09 @ 1:55PM|#

Wow, imagine if you could hook the Random Sentence Generator into it's own Twitter feed. Best. Twitter. Ever.

|4.9.09 @ 1:57PM|#

"I'd be more encouraged if the people that were passing up religion weren't picking up socialism in the process. They still want to make and impose rules to guide us all, they just don't have an invisible sky daddy to go with it."

That's why I put religionists and leftists in the same intellectual category, Nick. The only difference between religionists and liberals is that the latter have replaced God with the State Almighty.

Art-P.O.G.|4.9.09 @ 1:57PM|#

In fact all posters on H&R are assigned one of only four distinct voices. Conclusion: there are four people who post on H&R.

Lurker, Wingnut, Gregarious, Monomaniacal Troll, Tech Whiz, Sausagefest Disrupter, Estonian Guy. That's at least 7 types. +Hybrids.

Naga Sadow|4.9.09 @ 2:00PM|#

ART P.O.G.,

Dude! I hate that Estonian guy. Something about him . . .

|4.9.09 @ 2:01PM|#

Monomaniacal Troll sure has a nice ring to it. Is that me?

Art-P.O.G.|4.9.09 @ 2:01PM|#

Epi is clearly at the top of that pyramid you created with me and lmnop.

Eeewwwwwwwwww.

Naga Sadow|4.9.09 @ 2:03PM|#

SugarFree

When does he have connection again? I wanna know why he seems to be moving ever further away from any possible meeting with me. How am I supposed to give him this letter here telling him how I feel about him?

*holds letter up, sobs*

Art P.O.G.,

You had to there. It was awkward . . . at first.

Art-P.O.G.|4.9.09 @ 2:04PM|#

|4.9.09 @ 2:04PM|#

Naga,

It doesn't matter if he's in Seattle now. The restraining order is still in effect.

|4.9.09 @ 2:06PM|#

Art,

You left out Spoof Wingnut, which we have more of than actual Wingnuts.

And what's the def of lurker? Do you mean the people how only pop in once in a awhile, but clearly read the board. (Something I did for years, by the way.)

|4.9.09 @ 2:08PM|#

Do you mean the people how only pop in once in a awhile, but clearly read the board.

Do you mean people that actually have, you know, jobs?

phalkor|4.9.09 @ 2:08PM|#

I've read this since 2007, started jerking off into the collective pool of bile just last summer. Still warm, still juicy.

Art-P.O.G.|4.9.09 @ 2:09PM|#

That could be compelling.

|4.9.09 @ 2:13PM|#

"Oh jeezum...why do people forget the violent acts and speeches of Jesus?

John 2:15 "And He made a scourge of cords, and drove them all out of the temple, with the sheep and the oxen; and He poured out the coins of the money changers and overturned their tables"

I could cite the "I come not to send peace, but a sword", unfruitful trees being hewn and sent into the fire, wailing and gnashing of teeth, brothers killing brothers and fathers killing sons...

You can try to portray Jesus as an earthly pacifist all you want, but he talked a lot about killing, death, war and suffering all in the name of fighting on "his side"."

Don't forget "Bring me mine enemies that I might slay them."

Art-P.O.G.|4.9.09 @ 2:14PM|#

Sugarfree, Twisted Merkin. Right on both counts. Usually, when I see a poster arguing with a spoof troll, it's one of those lurkers that actually has a job.

OO===D|4.9.09 @ 2:14PM|#

I post here under at least fifty different names.

|4.9.09 @ 2:16PM|#

Libertarians may get a foot in the door in 8 years when obama is done. There will probably be a significant number of voters looking for smaller govt, more freedoms etc. But it won't come in cahoots with the repubs. The GOP sold it's soul to the christian conservatives years ago and that's not gonna change anytime soon. McCain had to backpedal and kiss the asses of the church leaders to get the nomination. As wellas picking Uber Christer Palin.

I think we should also have a category for The Sublimed, former Regulars who still drop in on occasion. Jennifer, thoreau, Stevo Darkly, de stijl, smacky, etc.

High Every Body|4.9.09 @ 2:18PM|#

Jennifer is still here fairly regularly isn't 'she'?

|4.9.09 @ 2:19PM|#

00===D,

I use the same name but several different personalities. It seems to work better for me.

???|4.9.09 @ 2:23PM|#

"I use the same name but several different personalities. It seems to work better for me."

Huh?

|4.9.09 @ 2:26PM|#

???,

IOW, you never know what kinda ignorance based, stupidity laced, unbelievable bullshit I might pull right outta my ass next.

|4.9.09 @ 2:30PM|#

Libertarians may get a foot in the door in 8 years when obama is done. There will probably be a significant number of voters looking for smaller govt, more freedoms etc.

Just like what happened after FDR huh? Millions in the streets demanding to be freed from the chains of a less burdened life.

Ravac|4.9.09 @ 2:30PM|#

And what's the def of lurker? Do you mean the people how only pop in once in a awhile, but clearly read the board.

*unlurks*

Yes.

*relurks*

OO===D|4.9.09 @ 2:32PM|#

"IOW, you never know what kinda ignorance based, stupidity laced, unbelievable bullshit I might pull right outta my ass next."

I go with ever changing names so i don't become annoying and redundant like the curd boy does.

|4.9.09 @ 2:34PM|#

I stick with the same name so the people I insult don't forget me.

|4.9.09 @ 2:36PM|#

This thread just gave me a headache.

|4.9.09 @ 2:37PM|#

[gives Solana virtual aspirin]

Probably some kinda side effects from the lurking device that ravac is using.

Orange Line Special|4.9.09 @ 2:41PM|#

Pro Libertate: Actually, I "erred" intentionally. Let's just say I'll stick with Amazon for my chatchki purchases.

Frankly, I'm a tiny bit shocked that someone in your position would have an online conversation with someone who was sleazily pretending to be someone else.

|4.9.09 @ 2:43PM|#

Me, too. But I'm easily fooled.

|4.9.09 @ 2:46PM|#

"Just like what happened after FDR huh? Millions in the streets demanding to be freed from the chains of a less burdened life."

They were less burdoned because they didn't have any job responsibilities. Unemployment stayed at double digits throughout the 30's.

|4.9.09 @ 2:53PM|#

I keep the same name all the time out of respect to Daniel Day Lewis at the end of The Crucible.

That guy was serious about his name.

phalkor|4.9.09 @ 3:00PM|#

In all seriousness, there's candy in the back of my van. Hurry! Get in before it's all gone!

VM|4.9.09 @ 3:09PM|#

*follows phalkor to van, with images of an over-sized "oh henry" bar awaiting...*

Brett Stevens|4.9.09 @ 4:12PM|#

I consider liberalism a bronze age myth.

I also consider pluralism a bronze age myth.

In fact, they're one and the same myth: that civilization requires nothing from the individual.

|4.9.09 @ 4:22PM|#

Americans are more religious than ever. What else explains the fawning worship for the current occupant of the White House?

Johnny Nowhere|4.9.09 @ 4:28PM|#

So this is the New Age of Reason following the Fourth Awakening?

I lost track after the rectification of the Vuldrini and the third reconciliation of the last of the McKetrick supplicants.

|4.9.09 @ 4:56PM|#

Thanks, SF. I'm feeling a little better...

|4.9.09 @ 5:01PM|#

Well after a president who thinks he was appointed God, what could be better than one who thinks he is God?

And the Isaac who posted at 12:21pm isn't me, but I generally agree with the thrust of his commentt.

There definitely is a trend towards a leftish, greenish religiousity showing up in some of the megachurches or nondenominationals.

|4.9.09 @ 5:27PM|#

Libertarians ought to seize the chance.

Agreed. What a noble, if Sisyphean, task to try and make the Republican party ideologically coherent.

Meanwhile a poll says only 54% of Americans think capitalism is the best system, with 20% preferring socialism. This despite the negative connotation. If Republicans want to become even more radical in their adherence to economic darwinism in the face of widespread public opposition, all the while truncating their base--whose activism is the only reason they've been able to win at all--they can surely knock themselves out.

engineer|4.9.09 @ 6:09PM|#

"Lurker, Wingnut, Gregarious, Monomaniacal Troll, Tech Whiz, Sausagefest Disrupter, Estonian Guy. That's at least 7 types. +Hybrids."

We sci-fi technical geeks are very offended that we haven't been included in your list.

engineer|4.9.09 @ 6:13PM|#

Tony,
I don't 54 to 20 is a bad ratio. That said, I'm pretty sure alot of theose 54% define capitalism differently than I would.

And I always assumed that all liberals (who make up about a quarter of the population) were proud socialists anyway. So the figures are not at all surprising.

engineer|4.9.09 @ 6:15PM|#

"So this is the New Age of Reason following the Fourth Awakening?"
Apparently we are experiencign the French version.

Hazel Meade|4.9.09 @ 6:29PM|#

Meanwhile a poll says only 54% of Americans think capitalism is the best system, with 20% preferring socialism. This despite the negative connotation.

Yeah, 54-20 in the middle of a recession and a banking crisis, and this is your argument that the Republicans should move left?

Although I would agree that the negative connotation of the work 'capitalism' does tend to hinder it's popularity. It's pretty surpising that most Americans can still see through the socialist bullshit that is constantly being flung at them.

engineer|4.9.09 @ 6:35PM|#

Hazel Meade,
Unfortunately, I'm sure that most of those 54% favor "capitalism" as long as nothing bad (failure of investment, outsourcing of job, not getting as favorable terms as one wants on a loan) happens to any of them personally. In other words, they expect the impossible.

engineer|4.9.09 @ 6:38PM|#

Since words like "capitalism" and "socialism" tend to have slippery definitions, a more useful poll would ask people about their positions on various economic issues and ask them to rank the salience of those issues.

engineer|4.9.09 @ 6:39PM|#

For example, if by "capitalism" I thought you meant "$700 billion dollar bailout of failed banks", I probably would prefer socialism.

engineer|4.9.09 @ 6:42PM|#

"Just like what happened after FDR huh? Millions in the streets demanding to be freed from the chains of a less burdened life."

Depends on who you are. If you are lazy, have no ambition, and have a flare for running up debts and never saving, you'll love the Obama administration, and will certainly feel less overburdened. If you don't fit this category, however, you'll likely find government policy less than optimal.

|4.9.09 @ 6:48PM|#

and this is your argument that the Republicans should move left?

My preference would be for Republicans to continue doing what they're doing.

If, however, they were paying me to advise them, I'd tell them that the country is and has been moving left, and you don't win national elections by going in the opposite direction of the country.

engineer|4.9.09 @ 6:48PM|#

If I may rant: As I've mentioned, I'm doing a buttload of work in engineering school. This is in part because I've always enjoyed science and mathematics, but the other major factor is that the degree pays for itself easily. But if I'm not going to be that much better off as an engineer than as, say, an art history major, what the hell's the point? Or, if I didn't want to waste the next 2-3 years, why not just go to trade school? I have no confidence in Obama's claim that 95% of Americans will see a tax cut. I think he'll buy support with it for awhile, until the higher marginal tax rates cause investors to shift to low-risk and/or lower-tax investments. The next group on the block will be upper-income professionals, and I figure I'll probably be entering that group just as soon as its screw-over turn comes up. Whoopee.

engineer|4.9.09 @ 7:05PM|#

No offense necessarily meant to art history majors or trade school graduates. Unless you get on my nerves, then it is fully intended.

|4.9.09 @ 7:09PM|#

If, however, they were paying me to advise them, I'd tell them that the country is and has been moving left, and you don't win national elections by going in the opposite direction of the country.

The point of doing politics is to change the country, not follow the polls around like a sick puppy. You don't lead by moving whatever direction the wind is blowing at a given instant. The best test of someone's sincerity is what they are willing to stand up for when it isn't popular.

engineer|4.9.09 @ 7:12PM|#

Hazel Meade,
While your version of proper government policy-making probably best approximates the intent of our founding fathers, I doubt it would sell well today. The democracy has replaced the republic, and I doubt that the republic will ever be restored.

|4.9.09 @ 7:12PM|#

The best test of someone's sincerity is what they are willing to stand up for when it isn't popular.

Republicans must be very, very sincere.

engineer|4.9.09 @ 7:14PM|#

While I don't always agree with him, and think that he sometimes associates himself with wackos (possibly the LoneWacko?), Ron Paul is the only member of the government with any integrity.

engineer|4.9.09 @ 7:16PM|#

"Republicans must be very, very sincere."

Hardly. They just want to make their distance from the current government policy perfectly clear. If they regain power, I doubt they will have changed much. We'll simply have a different administration and corresponding cronies.

|4.9.09 @ 9:56PM|#

People aren't getting less religious. They're just joining the oft-ignored religious left.

|4.9.09 @ 9:59PM|#

What kind of morons would think that a country that consists of more and more strongly catholic Latin and Southern Americans is going to become secular?

Oops, forgot where I was.

|4.9.09 @ 10:14PM|#

Latin = Central

long fucking day.

MJ|4.9.09 @ 10:22PM|#

This may be a new era of irreligiousness, but that is not a synonym for Reason. Previous ages, supposedly based on the ideal of "Reason" produced the French Terror, communism, and fascism. "Reason" is often the excuse of badly motivated men who wish to use their fellow human beings as a means to an end, and are constrained from doing so by conventional morality. Abandoning straightforward religion in favor of a new god of "Reason" allows them to shrug off the old morality. It is telling that the examples given that the religiousity is failing is given as the Schiavo case and embryonic stem cells, the ethical nub of both involves the legal objectifying of human creatures.

Considering the poll that only a bare majority of Americans favor capitalism over socialism right now, one suspects that these trends are part of the same wave of thinking. If so, I suspect it is one that liberty loving people will eventually rue.

|4.10.09 @ 10:23AM|#

If, however, they were paying me to advise them, I'd tell them that the country is and has been moving left, and you don't win national elections by going in the opposite direction of the country.

HAHA! That must be why, with a sitting Republican president in the middle of a major economic recession and one of the most unpopular wars since Vietnam, Obama just barely took half the country in this last election.

Right.

Socially, Americans are drifting left. But fiscally? If anything, I think Americans are drifting right.

Based off my friends and family, mixed Republicans and Democrats, I think a massive chunk of the American electorate is becoming more, well, libertarian. Even if they don't call it that.

economist|4.10.09 @ 11:28AM|#

MJ,
You stole my post from yesterday! I said tthe same thing, but more succinctly.

Lol, just trollin'.

economist|4.10.09 @ 11:30AM|#

"But fiscally? If anything, I think Americans are drifting right."

No, I'm pretty sure the majority of Americans have drifted leftward on economic issues. Note that the two major candidates in the last election were economic statists. Not a good sign.

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