Kimchi Pizza?

North Korean Dear Leader Kim Jong Il has accomplished a miracle: Pizza in Pyongyang.

It has taken almost 10 years of work, but North Korea has acquired the technology to launch a project very dear to its leader's heart—the nation's first "authentic" Italian pizzeria.

That's a long time to go without a decent slice, and I feel for the guy. But this is a pretty serious case of reinventing the wheel, no?

For those of you keeping score at home: 

  • New York, center of capitalism: 1,520 pizza joints (search pizza and pizzeria here)
  • Pyongyang, communist hermit kingdom: 1 pizza joint

(To be fair, there are those who say it's impossible to get a decent slice outside New York, even in the good old U.S. of A. While I'd submit New Haven pizza as holding its own, I understand the sentiment.)

And the Pyongyang v. New York pizza smack-down above doesn't even take into account per capita figures. New York has 9 million residents. North Korea has 24 million (starving) residents. Thus this charming contrast:

Despite the food shortages high-quality Italian wheat, flour, butter and cheese are being imported to ensure the perfect pizza is created every time.

Via Volokh Conspiracy, where we are reminded of another glorious chapter in North Korean culinary history: "Kim Jong Il's plan to provide pizza for the toiling masses of North Korea seems to have worked out better than his earlier plan to alleviate food shortages by breeding imported giant rabbits, which was aborted when the greedy Dear Leader decided to eat the initial batch of rabbits himself."

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  • Anonymous||

    I lived in Jersey growing up, and the pizza was good. Not as good as you can get in New York, but still good. But, I went to school in Philadelphia and the pizza sucked. Didn't have a good slice for 4 years.

  • ||

    For those of you keeping score at home:

    New York, center of capitalism: 1,520 pizza joints (search pizza and pizzeria here)
    Pyongyang, communist hermit kingdom: 1 pizza joint


    This is obviously due to the fact that NK does not want to overwhelm us with pizza places everywhere. They are preserving a diversity of choices by restricting them.

  • ||

    To be fair, there are those who say it's impossible to get a decent slice outside New York, even in the good old U.S. of A.

    Those people are either idiots or insufferable snobs and should be given a wide berth by everyone else.

  • ||

    While I'd submit New Haven pizza as holding its own, I understand the sentiment.

    New Haven's pizza is overrated. Try Luna Pizza, located in West Hartford and Glastonbury. Absolutely excellent pizza.

    A pizza can't even begin to be considered good if it's not thin crust with fresh mozzarella. Since that excludes the towering majority of pizza in this country, including in NYC, there is very little good pizza to be found.

  • EJM||

    Kimchi Pizza?

    Obviously, you've never had sauerkraut on a pizza; maybe a visit to, say, a Glass Nickel Pizza location is in order.

    (Personally, I'm still waiting for kimchi brats.)

  • wingnutx||

    I've been meaning to try kimchee on pizza for years.

    Mexican chorizo on pizza is sublime.

  • McKolohe||

    Despite the food shortages high-quality Italian wheat, flour, butter and cheese are being imported to ensure the perfect pizza is created every time

    I would think that should be 'because of food shortages'. Furthermore, the solution to food shortages (in the short run) is to *import more food*.

  • Kolohe||

    kimchi brats

    Throw some cayenne, ginger and sesame on the sauerkraut and you'll have close to the same thing.

    Chorizo is great. Any type of sausage on pizza is great.

    Cabbage on pizza? I'm not so sure.

  • Reinmoose||

    I moved from NY a few months ago to Texas.

    I've pretty much given up my hunt for pizza here, except there is one place that is owned by a Jersey guy who had a pizza place in Jersey before coming down here that looks promising... I don't dare try it though because I'm afraid that if it sucks my hope will be all gone.

    SOMEONE SEND ME ONE!! MAIL IT OR SOMETHING!

  • EJM||

    Throw some cayenne, ginger and sesame on the sauerkraut and you'll have close to the same thing.

    I'm actually waiting for a maker of specialty brats to take the plunge and produce a variety that, yes, puts kimchi inside the brat.

  • Reinmoose||

    Kolohe - where does one even get pizza in Hawaii? I don't think I've ever seen anything other than chains or silly gourmet California style pizza.

  • ||

    But, I went to school in Philadelphia and the pizza sucked.

    Heretic.

    Mango,
    Your food-related posts are cool- a subject near and dear to my heart (specifically, my left anterior descending artery).

  • ||

    SOMEONE SEND ME ONE!! MAIL IT OR SOMETHING!

    I could have sworn I heard about some place being willing to do this. Call these guys and ask them if they'll freeze one and send it to you.

  • Reinmoose||

    Epi -
    There's a place in my hometown that will mail their pepperoni rolls. They're not my favorite thing ever, but they may just have to be what I resort to.

    I will check out this place you link to though

  • I Kahn O\'Clast||

    My town used to have a great pizza place but they thought so well of themselves that they moved to the big city and now the closest slice is 30 minutes away (and the closest good slice is closer to 45 mins).

    We've taken to making our own and we're getting close to mastering the art. We might even open our own pizza parlor.

  • ||

    "To be fair, there are those who say it's impossible to get a decent slice outside New York, even in the good old U.S. of A."

    They're probably forgetting about that country

    you know that country that's to the south of Solvenia

    with all the loud irritating people

    who drive about on mopeds

    but don't wear Fred Perry's and addias three stripe and have excellent collections of Ska, punk and northern soul

    not Mods

    Italian's!!

    To be fair, I've gotta say for me Italian pizza is shite

    gimme the deep pan stuff any day

  • McKolohe||

    Big Kahuna's (srlsy) now next to the airport.

    There's apparently some new mom&pop places in Kaimuki, but I haven't tried any out.

    Boston's North End used to be pretty good, but imo has declined somewhat since it's founding about 10-15 years ago.

  • Gimme Back My Dog||

    open letter to everyone who moved from NY:

    Nobody gives a fuck that you are from NY. Stop working it into every conversation. If the pizza there is so fucking good, move back. There are planes leaving for NY every few hours--even a backwater like the place you live now has airports!--be on the next one.

    And fuck the Yankees while you are at it.

  • Paul||

    To be fair, there are those who say it's impossible to get a decent slice outside New York, even in the good old U.S. of A.



    They're lying. You can get good slices many places, the only question is where, and what exactly denotes a "good slice".

  • Cool Cal||

    1. Anyone that says pizza in Jersey is almost as good as pizza in New York must be referring to Central Jersey, not North East Jersey (Johnny Speciale's on Anderson Ave in Fairview!)

    2. Who wants to bet the pizzeria in North Korea will claim to be the Original Famous Ray's.

  • Mike Laursen||

    Butter? Not olive oil? Do the Italians use butter in their authentic Italian pizza?

  • Reinmoose||

    Big Kahuna's? Airport?

    Never would have thought to look there. Not like I look to eat pizza when I go to Hawaii, though.

  • ||

    SOMEONE SEND ME ONE!! MAIL IT OR SOMETHING!


    like get some bread

    cover it tomato sauce and cheese

    add some onions lightly fried with oregano, paprika and cumin

    add some peperoni, minced beed and the most important ingredient

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italian_sweet_pepper

    diced into half inch cubes

    stick it in the oven for 20 minutes

    :)

  • Paul||

    A pizza can't even begin to be considered good if it's not thin crust with fresh mozzarella. Since that excludes the towering majority of pizza in this country, including in NYC, there is very little good pizza to be found.

    That's a new angle, just get so snobby that you declare that good pizza (or whatever your item of desire) simply doesn't exist within the human sphere.

  • Reinmoose||

    Gimme Back My Dog -

    They should just come up for a new name for NY Pizza so that everyone else doesn't feel so intimidated when we all use the word "pizza" to describe something different. I'm not one to insist that any pizza that is not NY pizza is necessarily not good, just that it is not the same product. Would a southerner go to NY, eat something called "BBQ chicken" that is in fact grilled, and quietly sit there and be like "this is good BBQ?" No, I don't think so. In fact, I've been in that reverse situation.

    NYers, when together, talk about Pizza. Get over it.

  • ||

    Boboli pizza shell + pizza stone + your own toppings = better than 90% of pizzerias.

  • ||

    "I'm not one to insist that any pizza that is not NY pizza is necessarily not good"

    hahah man I want you on my side next time I meet some Italians

  • ||

    New Haven's pizza is overrated. Try Luna Pizza, located in West Hartford and Glastonbury. Absolutely excellent pizza.



    The places with the big reputations in Wooster Square, Sally's and Pepe's, are overrated. However, some of the lesser known places in the area are great. Dimatteo's is fantastic, best pizza I've ever had, including NYC. Modern is good. Bar and Yorkside are both decent (and Yorkside's calzones are great), neither are overrated or overpriced. The only New Haven pizza I have had that wasn't at least decent was Broadway Pizza, they suck. I will give Luna a shot if I am passing through West Hartford though.

    A pizza can't even begin to be considered good if it's not thin crust with fresh mozzarella. Since that excludes the towering majority of pizza in this country, including in NYC, there is very little good pizza to be found.



    Thin crust that is just slightly chewy, with sauce that has just a hint of sweetness. Now we're talking, fellow pizza connoisseur.

  • ||

    five dollar little caesars pepperoni is fine by me. after having anosmia from a concussion for over fifteen years, my sense of taste is not 100%. My sense of smell has returned slowly over the last 13 years but I still can't smell sweet or flowery things.

  • Reinmoose||

    MM

    I mean, I can appreciate Chicago style pizza, or Sicilian pizza, for example. I definitely prefer the NY style above all others ever.

    Thin crust that is just slightly chewy, with sauce that has just a hint of sweetness

    Good lord there are "NY style" pizza places down here that are proud of their crispy cracker-like crust.

  • Xe O\'Nes||

    Yo, fuck Kim Jong Il.

    As for pizza, you can find decent pie restaurants in surprising places if you just look around.

  • ||

    That's a new angle, just get so snobby that you declare that good pizza (or whatever your item of desire) simply doesn't exist within the human sphere.

    As the moose has elucidated, when people from the NY metro area say "pizza", we mean a very specific thing. Normally I would call it a "pie", but I didn't want to confuse people.

    I'm sure there are very delicious creations made with dough, sauce, and various other cheeses and meats and vegetables. Those are not pizzas. People should stop calling them that.

    Thin crust that is just slightly chewy, with sauce that has just a hint of sweetness. Now we're talking, fellow pizza connoisseur.

    Indeed. Light sauce and light on the fresh mozzarella, so everything melds together. With basil leaves and fresh crushed garlic. Now I'm hungry.

  • ed||

    Americans have forgotten how to cook. Making a decent pizza is easy. I made some little grilled ones the other day with goat cheese, black olives and octopus. Delightful, if not a little kinky.

  • ||

    here are those who say it's impossible to get a decent slice outside New York

    The best pizza in the country is in Chicago. Pizza equal to anything available in NYC is available all over the eastern seaboard. The best pizza in the DC area (at least it was when I left town for the silicon valley) is Generous George's in Alexandria.

    -jcr

  • ||

    Thick crust or thin, use whatever toppings you like, whatever cheese you prefer. The quickest way to screw up a pizza is with too much sauce. This ain't bread bowl soup we're makin'.

  • ||

    ed, how did you keep the octopus from gettin rubbery?

  • ||

    I'm a big fan of Yorkside Pizza in New Haven. It's Greek style, so a little different than the norm.

  • ed||

    Cook it quick and very hot, bro'. I pre-grill the dough, add the toppings and put in a 500F oven.

  • Jeff P||

    Is thee anything else in the western world, aside from perhaps rock music, that has been mutated, adapted, co-opted, overhauled, redefined, and argued over as fervently as pizza?

  • robc||

    Jeff P,

    BBQ?

    Although, as far as I can tell, no one from the carolinas, Memphis, KC, Texas or Owensboro* would call the stuff from other places "not BBQ". They will argue over which is best, but the term is allowed to be used. Unlike the moronic New Yorkers in this thread.

    *Yes, Owensboro KY - it is to mutton what Memphis is to pork ribs.

  • ||

    I definitely prefer the NY style above all others ever.


    No arguments here!

  • Pendulum||

    So, since I'm going to NYC for my first time as an adult this week, can someone tell me where I can get a decent pizza? I'm staying in the Little Italy area, but I'll be visiting Brooklyn too.

  • robc||

    Pendulum,

    I recommend anything with "Ray" in the name - its a big chain and they all taste the same. :)

  • anarch||

    Tradition has it that the number of pizzerias and taxicabs in NYC, like the price of a slice and the cost of a subway ride, always match, so that when one goes up the other will too.

    That's tradition, before google made everything checkable.

  • ||

    Pendulum, try here. Seriously, you can't do much better than that. Don't get anything on it but (if you want) fresh garlic and basil.

    Unlike the moronic New Yorkers in this thread.

    So touchy, rob. We know you call it pizza, it's just not correct.

  • ||

    I'm a big fan of Yorkside Pizza in New Haven. It's Greek style, so a little different than the norm.



    It also has the latest hours of any restaurant in the New Haven area, which is convenient when a show wraps up at Toad's at 2 am. Their milkshakes are pretty decent as well.

  • ||

    Episiarch, you plagiarizing heathen, what do you eat, matzo bread pizza? Thin crust is crap. John C. Randolph speaks truly.

  • EscapedWestOfTheBigMuddy||

    as far as I can tell, no one from the carolinas, Memphis, KC, Texas or Owensboro* would call the stuff from other places "not BBQ".



    I am deeply temped to suggest that everyone should always prefix "BBQ" with a locale. SO that I don't risk a repeat of the experience of showing up at a BBQ expecting brisket, brauts, and tamales (proper, south Texas BBQ) only to be confronted with pieces of chicken. Chicken, I tell you!

  • robc||

    Epi,

    Pizza is rectangular, thick and upside down.

    And, yes, I recognize the irony of that last bit.

  • ||

    The Chicago area has food from all over the world. I live in the far west burbs and I'd be hard pressed to define what "Chicago pizza" even is because I've never had the same pie twice.

    I eats lots of Chinese and south-east Asian food. The worst Chinese food I've ever had is in Arkansas and Southern Misery. I hate to get all racist, but when you see white people cooking your Chinese food, don't expect too much.

  • ||

    BBQ chicken? Blasphemy!

    If it ain't fried, it ain't the yardbird.

  • robc||

    I am deeply temped to suggest that everyone should always prefix "BBQ" with a locale.

    Im okay with that, just as long as everyone realizes it is all still BBQ. BTW, Yankees and Californians, cooking on a grill is not barbecuing. That is grilling.

    BBQ MAY be done on a grill. Everything done on the grill is not BBQ.

  • Reinmoose||

    robc -
    There were some boys from Tennessee in one of my offices in NY and, when trying BBQ up there, they did, in fact, insist that it was not BBQ.

    I don't know what else to tell you. Like I said, there should be a different word because what we're talking about is not the same thing - not just different versions.

  • Reinmoose||

    Pizza is rectangular, thick and upside down.

    You are describing Sicilian sausage pizza.

  • robc||

    Moose,

    Notice I said Carolinas, Memphis, Texas, KC and Owensboro. It is quite possible that what they got in NY wasnt BBQ at all. I have known a number of yankees to tell me they were hosting a BBQ and when I showed up, they were grilling burgers. WTF?

    There are legit reasonable varients (and unlegit ones). Including with pizza. For example, Im okay with banning anyplace that upon ordering your pizza asks you which sauce you want.

    What?
    Marinara or Alfredo?
    Um, didnt I just order pizza?

    Now that you can not call pizza.

  • robc||

    You are describing Sicilian sausage pizza.

    I notice you used the word pizza in the description. Point to all the non-NYers.

  • ||

    One word: Ledo's

    That's all there is. God why did I move to the west coast, so far from Ledo's.

  • ||

    Seconding Totonno's. I last ate there, outside, on a warm late August night waaay back in '05. I still remember how great it was. Just found this, randomly:

    http://www.thepauperedchef.com/2007/09/new-haven-pizza.html

  • EscapedWestOfTheBigMuddy||

    BBQ chicken? Blasphemy!



    That's Virginia for 'ya.

    Luckily there was free beer, so I was able to buffer my system after the shock. After that it wasn't bad.

  • ||

    Pizza is rectangular, thick and upside down.

    Siciliano pie is crap. Sorry. If you dig it, fine, but that ain't pizza.

  • ||

    Free Beer can cover a multitude of sins.

  • Brian E||

    I live in the far west burbs and I'd be hard pressed to define what "Chicago pizza" even is because I've never had the same pie twice.

    There's two kinds of Chicago pizza, just like there's two kinds of Chicagoans. North side pizza is thick crust pan pizza in the Gino's style. South side pizza is thin and cut into squares, ala Barnaby's. The common element to both is corn meal in the crust.

  • anarch||

    I am deeply temped



    Shirley, you jest!

  • Reinmoose||

    rob -
    I think you just need to get over it. We're very happy to concede that you don't have hamburgers on a grill as a BBQ.

    Have you ever been to NY and had a slice or two, there? Seriously.

    We have such an insane population of Italian Americans (original immigrant families) with a tremendous amount of competition - you know, that whole free market thing we always talk about here? Is it any wonder NYers are always on about an Italian American dish that is a staple of their diets?

  • Reinmoose||

    would you seriously tell a French person who had a Kroger's baguette to shut up about it not being a "real baguette?"

  • ||

    Moose, you moved to Texas. I'm moving to Seattle imminently, and I fear for my pizza. Though Seattle is probably a little safer, food-wise.

  • Reinmoose||

    Seattle will at least have good Asian, I suspect.

    I've been there and there is some decent food to be had.

    Pizza though...

    What I've come to accept is that one should eat what's best to the locality. I will save my pizza eating for when I go home.

  • ||

    Free Beer can cover a multitude of sins.



    It's been known to cause a multitude of sins as well (but mostly the fun ones).

  • ||

    What I've come to accept is that one should eat what's best to the locality.

    Good point. The seafood there is phenomenal. There is an Italian deli downtown right next to Pike Place Market which makes fresh mozzarella every weekend and has Parma and San Danielle prosciutto, and even jamon. Their bread is good too. So that's something.

    The broccoli rabe there is weird, though. Thinner and different from the Andy Boy you get around here. I'll have to work with it more.

  • ||

    While we're on the subject of being anal about regional food, can we stop calling every cheesesteak sold in the goddamn world a "Philadelphia cheesesteak"?

  • robc||

    would you seriously tell a French person who had a Kroger's baguette to shut up about it not being a "real baguette?"

    Yes.

    The extra qualifications are unnecessary.

  • Reinmoose||

    While we're on the subject of being anal about regional food, can we stop calling every cheesesteak sold in the goddamn world a "Philadelphia cheesesteak"?

    Yes, Next?

  • robc||

    Have you ever been to NY and had a slice or two, there? Seriously.

    I havent been in NYC in 24 years. A decade since Ive been in New York state. So no.

    But, Im personally fine with NY style pizza. Im a pizza universalist. Thick, thin, whatever, just make it good. And not froo-froo. Hence the alfredo comment.

    BTW, the worst pizza I think I have ever had was in Rome, Italy. Point of that? Not sure there is one other than I dont put much into Italian heritage having much to do with making good pizza.

    We're very happy to concede that you don't have hamburgers on a grill as a BBQ.

    Thats fine, but that isnt the point. Grilling isnt even trying to BBQ. However, as someone who prefers Memphis style BBQ (and was just there 2 weekends ago attempted to OD on it) I wouldnt tell someone who used a vinegar or mustard based sauce (shudder) that what they were making wasnt BBQ. Ditto chicken. You can BBQ chicken or mutton or even beef, it aint my preference but it is still BBQ.

  • ||

    Regarding pizza in Hawaii -- one of my favorite pizza places in the world is in Hawaii. It's called Boston Pizza and it's in Kailua.

    http://maps.google.com/maps?latlng=138775529349760485

  • robc||

    You can also make a lambic outside the Senne Valley. But the crap that Sam Adams called a lambic isnt one.

  • ||

    BTW, the worst pizza I think I have ever had was in Rome, Italy.

    Roman pizza is very different from anything you would normally have had. Was it a disk of thin dough with some sauce on it and then a fat chunk of mozzarella in the middle, and it doesn't even melt to cover the entire thing? That's what I had multiple times in Rome. All the Americans I was with hated it because it was weird, so I ate theirs for them because it was good.

    Yeah, it's not NY pizza either. I think we as Americans get to be proud of creating a huge, signature dish from ethnic European origins that ended up being quintessentially American.

  • 0 girls, 0 cup||

    While we're on the subject of being anal about regional food, can we stop

    a) Whaddaya mean "we," White Man?

    b) Immediately. Yuck.

  • robc||

    I think we as Americans get to be proud of creating a huge, signature dish from ethnic European origins that ended up being quintessentially American.

    Yep, and it was done in multiple locations in America too. All slightly different, all still pizza.

    Was it a disk of thin dough with some sauce on it and then a fat chunk of mozzarella in the middle, and it doesn't even melt to cover the entire thing?

    Pretty much, except your description sounds good and what I had was nasty.

  • ||

    Pretty much, except your description sounds good and what I had was nasty.

    If I recall correctly, it may have had a lot of oregano in it (the sauce). I like oregano, but am extremely cognizant of its presence because my Italian-cooking grandmother detested it, so it was in none of her dishes. I seem to recall a strong presence of oregano.

    If you don't like oregano, you would hate it.

  • ||

    To be fair, there are those who say it's impossible to get a decent slice outside New York, even in the good old U.S. of A.

    They be idiots. Gimme some of that good Chicago style, the best of which is strangely enough available in Berserkeley CA - Zachary's. Once carried one (half cooked) onto a plane going home to Portland OR with me. I got the dirtiest looks from the rest of the passengers (and crew).

    Generous George's in Alexandria

    Damn, you just made me realize how much I miss that place. Not so much for the pizza, but for the heaping plates of pasta.

  • ||

    Aaaaa!!

    I don't know if it's just because North Korea has been a literal hell on earth for so long, but where are the protests about this regime?

    I don't ever hear anyone defending the North Korean regime, left or right, but while we have protests over Sudan, Tibet, Iraq, Iran, Israel, ad nauseum, one rarely hears much of a peep about North Korea. Is it just simple fatigue?

    It's morally unconscionable, really. This is worse than the Rawandan geoncide, and has been going on for decades. There should be mass protests outside every North Korean embassy night and day. What gives?

  • EscapedWestOfTheBigMuddy||

    Hazel,

    I figure that we went toe-to-toe with the Chinese over Korea in the 50s. Now, we can't do anything forceful about North Korea unless and until the Chinese are on board. Can't starve them out with out cooperation from Peking, either.

    And for now, China is not playing ball.

    So we keep umptidy thousand heavily armed and highly trained men and women staring across the DMZ, and wait. And try to get the Chinese to at least lean on Dear Leader about the rockets and nukes.

    ::sigh::

  • ||

    Can't starve them out with out cooperation from Peking, either.

    I didn't think they needed our help in that.

  • Kolohe||

    There should be mass protests outside every North Korean embassy night and day. What gives?

    There is no DPRK embassy in the US?

  • Kolohe||

    Damn missed 'every'. Snark technical foul.

  • EscapedWestOfTheBigMuddy||

    More on Korea...

    Perhaps the best thing we can do for now is to set up as many sporting links and cultural exchanges as possible.

    But we've got to get them coming to the west as well as going to North Korea.

    Stories from exsoviet athletes, performers, and minor diplomatic functionaries suggest that humdrum, everyday scenes from rich, free cultures can have a surprisingly strong effect on their thinking at times.

    Mind you, this is a slow strategy. We're talking long term thinking, here.

  • ||

    Episiarch,

    Seattle's not bad for food. Try Wild Ginger. I went there a couple of times while in Seattle and liked it. Not for pizza, of course. It's Asian fusion. It's on Third Avenue next to the WaMu building. Or whatever that building is called now.

    Seafood is good in Seattle (great requires being on the Gulf, sorry), but as for pizza, well, I'd lower my standards now, to avoid disappointment.

    By the way, if you like mountain hikes, I went on a fantastic day hike in the North Cascades--the Cascade Pass. I highly, highly recommend it.

    Hazel,

    We don't support freedom for cultures that lack pizza.

  • EscapedWestOfTheBigMuddy||

    Can't starve them out with out cooperation from Peking, either.

    I didn't think they needed our help in that.



    It's the usual story: they'll feed the soldiers and the elite even while the rest of the country starves. All the while collecting enough in donation to limp along.

    So even trying puts us (the good guys, remember) in the awkward position of says "We'll just sit here and eat our Big Macs while we watch generation after generation of short yellow people suffer." I'm not very comfortable with that, you?

  • EscapedWestOfTheBigMuddy||

    Pro Lib wins.

  • Kolohe||

    I'm not very comfortable with that, you?

    As Tony Soprano would put it while shrugging his shoulders, "Whatcha gonna do?"

    Bad: The tyranny of the former soviet bloc.
    Worse: The tyranny of the formerly Maoist PRC.
    Worst: Trying to do anything about it directly

    And I'm not even talking about going nuclear. A bigger and perpetual vietnam+iraq for the last half century would have been bad enough. For everyone.

  • Kolohe||

    I used to be evangelical about liberty.

    Iraq cured me of that notion.

    Now, I'm satisfied to preserve and protect, at home and abroad. Which is still a pretty tall order, but one more grounded in realpolitik. And thus more likely to be successful.

  • ||

    Pro Lib wins.

    Agreed.

    I figure that we went toe-to-toe with the Chinese over Korea in the 50s. Now, we can't do anything forceful about North Korea unless and until the Chinese are on board.

    Well, I don't mean government diplomatic actions. It wierds me out that there's no protest movement about it. If there was some kind of political pressure in countries around the globe - like there is over Israel, or Sudan, say, then the Chinese and others might feel a little more impelled to actually take some action.

    But as it is, it's like nobody gives a shit about the people of North Korea. They might as well not even exist. There mgiht even be more opposition *inside* North Korea if the people there knew that we gave a crap.

  • EscapedWestOfTheBigMuddy||

    Can't starve them out with out cooperation from Peking, either.

    I didn't think they needed our help in that.



    Yeah. I see what you mean.

    Maybe the usual suspects can see to the heart the dilemma (which Kolohe put so succinctly) on this one, or something.

    But as it is, it's like nobody gives a shit about the people of North Korea. They might as well not even exist.



    From where I sit, we rarely have the first clue what they are going through. You don't get a lot of exposes, or any celebrity spokesthings.

    That's got to be part of it. Oppressed peoples and foreign suffering seems to go through cycles of fad and popularity in the popular culture.

  • Kolohe||

    if the people there knew that we gave a crap.

    How are they going to know? The population is the most isolated in the world. TV and internet are heavily censored, shortwave is likely hard to receive or disregarded from a cradle to grave propaganda program.

    And looking it up, there actually seem to be very few DPRK embassies around the world. The only free countries that have one look to be UK, Germany, Switzerland, and Sweden. The rest are in former soviet bloc or third world countries.

    And there is still an official UN mandate for the Korean peninsula, the US and a few allied forces there are technically under UN control. Based on the UN's track record, that's probably the level of involvement you want from the 'world community'.

    (there is also the case that Korea, China, and Japan have a long a complex history together, which makes the normal 'free Darfur/free Tibet' type sentiment for DPRK a bit to straightforward for the regional geopolitics.

  • EscapedWestOfTheBigMuddy||

    That's not the blockquote I meant, damnit.

    I wan't to quote Hazel...this bit:

    Well, I don't mean government diplomatic actions. It wierds me out that there's no protest movement about it.



    Shouldn't this thing have a preview button or something....

    What?

    You mean it does....

    Oh.

  • ||

    By the way, if you like mountain hikes, I went on a fantastic day hike in the North Cascades--the Cascade Pass. I highly, highly recommend it.

    No hikes for me, ProL. I am too damaged from too many accidents. Hiking is just pain for me. I play my tennis and take my Vicodin.

  • Kolohe||

    The way to 'fix' North Korea is the way the PRC is going. Hopefully when Kim Jong Il finally takes the eternal celestial dirt nap, his successor will want to open stuff up. Especially if he sees that the CCP was able to do so and retain all the power that matters.

    However, the jury's still out on the CCP experiment; this economic slowdown is their first big crisis since '89. If they are able to do it without either everything falling apart, or a bunch of tanks in downtown beijing again, that will be a good thing and close enough to a miracle for this agnostic. And it should motivate the nextgen DPRK leadership to take the same risk of opening up.

    And of course, hopefully long term the CCP and the KWP will open up the political process as they see the same oligarchy basically retains power in western democracies.

  • ||

    It wierds me out that there's no protest movement about it.

    Talk about joez law!

    C'mon Hazel, it's the right theory amongst the cosmos, it's just the wrong people in charge. No need to protest over that.

    Feeling a little weird that I can actually explain that.

  • Seer||

    there are those who say it's impossible to get a decent slice outside New York

    ...

    The best pizza in the country is in Chicago.

    This. Give me something from Gino's East before you try passing off some lousy thin piece of grease and cracker as a pizza.

  • ||

    Fuck Chicago and New York. I'm getting pizza-hut delivered.

  • Naga Sadow||

    Fools! JCR and Seer are correct! It's been years since I've been back in Chicago but I still remember the pizza! Teh AWESome!

    Epi,

    Ouch! I messed up my right knee right after Christmas and have really missed running. Might try a short mountain hike like Pro Lib suggested. I'm flyin out to Denver in a few hours.

  • Naga Sadow||

    brotherben,

    *Shakes head in sympathy*

    Your attempts to deny The Word on pizza will not come to fruition! You will see the light in time.

  • ||

    naga sadow, I'm an overweight, unemployed slightly delusional, neo-marxcist thrilled with Obama and his plans. I'm not really interested in what a bunch of pizza nazis think. I love Super Supreme Deep Dish Pan Pizza

  • The Angry Optimist||

    Go get 'em, brotherben. While NYers throw tantrums about all of us Faithless Heretics in the Church of the Pizza, we're enjoying stuffed-crust, because it's fucking delicious.

    I'm sure there are very delicious creations made with dough, sauce, and various other cheeses and meats and vegetables. Those are not pizzas. People should stop calling them that.

    No. One. Cares. "People" will continue to call them any damn thing they want, sans input from the Church, thanksverymuch.

  • ||

    Oh, and while I'm enjoying the Pizza Hut, I can shoot squirrels in the back yard of the 1450 sq foot house on a 100x200 foot lot with a property tax of under 400 dollars a YEAR.

  • JB||

    Communists are retards. So are wannabe-be communists (socialists, liberals, democrats).

    On a side note, New York pizza can be ok, but most of it is soggy, greasy cardboard.

  • ||

    JB, yup. retards. And we are in power, so all you non-retardos need to work harder to pay for the pizza. On your dime, we might develop a taste for the good stuff. You lost to the retards, Bwaaaahahahahahaha.

  • Beelzebud||

    JB you epitomize the right wing in the country right now. Belligerent, angry, irrational fool.

    Enjoy the next 8 years.

  • hke||

    South Korea has the best pizza. Can anything really top this?
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R6AqC0512oY

  • ed||

    Lest anyone doubt my grilled pizza with goat cheese,
    black olives and octopus, behold, and salivate.

  • ||

    Yo, Lil' Kim should get a clue and make like Deng Xiaoping... does he have any idea how much pizza there is in Shanghai?

    Seriously, you can't swing a dead panda without hitting a pizzeria in this town. Chain pizza (Pizza Hut, Papa John's, Dominos), "chi-talian" local knockoffs, proper expat pizzerias run by Americans and Italians... there's even a local chain called New York pizza, which I daresay makes a damn fine slice; I eat there about every week.

    Socialism with Chinese Characteristics FTW.

  • TofuSushi||

    Sounds like a western plot to destroy the health of North Koreans while major American cities are trying to ban this poison.

    BTW, TofuPizza is delish!

  • dhex||

    "While NYers throw tantrums about all of us Faithless Heretics in the Church of the Pizza, we're enjoying stuffed-crust, because it's fucking delicious."

    it's ok to be wrong, broham. it builds character. :)

  • ||

    Actually, the best pizza in the world is made in Scotland. Behold the Pizza Scotia! Made from the best thing on Earth: haggis.

  • The Angry Optimist||

    I suppose, if you wanted, you could stick to the idea that only sparking wine made with grapes from Champagne can be called champagne.

    you would, of course, be subject to warranted derision :D

  • dhex||

    yes but you'd also be technically correct, which is the best kind of correct there is!

  • Bronwyn||

    My Dear Husband was responsible for opening the first Papa John's store in South Korea.

    Special toppings include shrimp, bulgogi, pickles, sesame, and potato chunks.

    Dear Husband also opened the first Papa John's store in Shanghai, the Bahamas, and Trinidad & Tobago.

    Not that that has much to do with anything... just makin' conversation.

  • EJM||

    I don't know if it's just because North Korea has been a literal hell on earth for so long, but where are the protests about this regime?

    Hazel, you could always start here. ;)

  • ||

    To be fair, there are those who say it's impossible to get a decent slice outside New York, even in the good old U.S. of A.

    Those people are morons.

  • B||

    Some of the best pizza I've had recently was in Vietnam. Not "NY pizza" at all to be sure, but sublime nonetheless.

    Fish sauce on pizza is a revelation.

  • ||

    I'm an overweight, unemployed slightly delusional, neo-marxcist

    All you needed to say was that you are a neo-marxist, brotherben. The rest pretty much follows as the night follows the day.

  • Thomas Paine\'s Goiter||

    http://www.atimes.com/koreas/CH04Dg01.html


    I'm assuming that the writer of this article helped get that pizza joint off of the ground.

  • JB||

    brotherben, one day I might tire of you and your ilk pointing a gun at my head. Woe when that happens.

    Beelzebud, I will enjoy all my time. I hope you enjoy your abortion when Obama runs this country into the ground and there are no laws to protect peons like you.

  • Brian Sorgatz||

    Kolohe - where does one even get pizza in Hawaii? I don't think I've ever seen anything other than chains or silly gourmet California style pizza.

    As a Californian, I must protest. Limiting pizza to the Italian-American traditions of New York is like limiting rock and roll to African Americans. If white Brits like John Lennon and Mick Jagger can introduce new things to rock, why can't we on the west coast take pride in the creations of the California Pizza Kitchen?

  • EscapedWestOfTheBigMuddy||

    Now, I'm not widely experienced in this area, but when I think of California Pizza, I think of Woodstock's Pizza (the one in IV, but I understand the one near Berkeley is the same).

  • ||

    the one in IV

    Heh-heh. Never-never-land. Home of the 35 year old sophomore.

    My best friend and his wife got their PhDs there. Good times.

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    With many new announcement about the wizard of oz movies in the news, you might want to consider starting to obtain Wizard of Oz book series either as collectible or investment at RareOzBooks.com.

  • sathi2000||

    i guess i have to eat it to believe itsujan and i had one of these at a pizza hut in south korea. it was amazing. we should get together and try to make this sometime soon.
    http://www.mirei.com

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