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About Those Five Million "Green Collar" Jobs...
...is a made up number that is meant to "inspire," according to its promulgators. As the Wall Street Journal reports:
The Apollo Alliance, a San Francisco coalition of environmental and labor groups, ... released a study in September. It concluded that five million green jobs could be had with an investment of $500 billion -- more than three times Mr. Obama's number [ of $150 billion].
Kate Gordon, co-director of the Apollo Alliance, says the numbers are less important than the message. "Honestly," she says, "it's just to inspire people."
Earlier this week, my colleague Jacob Sullum pointed out in his superb column "Green Herring":
...both the Apollo Alliance and Obama, who has liberally borrowed from its ideas, mistakenly treat the manpower required to reduce greenhouse gas emissions as a measure of success, when it should be viewed as a cost to be minimized.
|11.7.08 @ 2:51PM|#
LOL, rest assured that the idiots of Wall Street could care less
about Main Street America, they only care about one thing,
THEMSELVES. Greedy, money hungry bottom feeders.
Jess
http://www.Ultimate-Anonymity.com
SIV|11.7.08 @ 2:53PM|#
Damn. I was planning on reducing our dependence on foreign oil by riding my new pony to my high-paying green-collar job.
|11.7.08 @ 2:55PM|#
Sure half of you are going to die, but we will have full employment as the live half buries the dead half.
|11.7.08 @ 2:57PM|#
John, it goes well with Planned Parenthood's goal of "making
every child a wanted child" by killing off the unwanted ones.
It's like Stalin said, if there's a man who has a problem, if you
get rid of the man, you get rid of the problem.
Nigel Watt|11.7.08 @ 3:04PM|#
These people really don't realize that the government can't create jobs, do they?
sage|11.7.08 @ 3:04PM|#
Maybe you guys should wait for Chairman Mao-bama to assemble his politburo before you pass judgement. Just a thought.
|11.7.08 @ 3:08PM|#
It concluded that five million green jobs could be had with
an investment of $500 billion -- more than three times Mr. Obama's
number [ of $150 billion].
If those were productive jobs providing a needed product or
service, wouldn't the investment and job creation take care of
itself?
Bingo|11.7.08 @ 3:14PM|#
Jim: About $100,000 per job. Should be enough to buy a bag of apples once they get done printing the cash to pay for autoworker pensions.
|11.7.08 @ 3:16PM|#
Oops. Make that $100,000 per job. Still a lot.
And The Onion has the definitive word on the subject:
"Obama Promises To Stop America's Shitty Jobs From Going
Overseas"
http://www.theonion.com/content/video/obama_promises_to_stop_americas
Lefiti|11.7.08 @ 3:32PM|#
George Bush must have called his Wall Street cronies to make things look bad for Obama. Smooth transition my ass! He's cheating!
|11.7.08 @ 3:50PM|#
If those were productive jobs providing a needed product or service, wouldn't the investment and job creation take care of itself?
You're just one of those greedy capitalists that don't understand
that corporations just want to rape our environment and poison our
water supply. The only reason that they haven't is because the
people like Obama care enough to protect us.
After writing that I realized that it might sound like something
you might hear these days. I was, of course, kidding..
|11.7.08 @ 3:50PM|#
Please tell me someone is sock puppeting lefiti
Seriously, if the "green jobs" were productive, we would make money
on them because they would produce more than they cost.
|11.7.08 @ 4:05PM|#
It's actually a good thing that Obama is going to create so many green collar jobs. What with all the government spending and requirements to force green industry and consumption, people will need more than one job just to put food on the table.
Paul|11.7.08 @ 4:11PM|#
The Apollo Alliance, a San Francisco coalition of environmental and labor groups, ... released a study in September. It concluded that five million green jobs could be had with an investment of $500 billion --
Similar system to what Mayor "No talking, no drinking, no smoking"
Nickels uses for 'job creation' here in Seattle. He sits down with
a paper napkin, figures out how many square feet of office space
could be built, then calculates how many cubicles could be
placed into that total square footage, and that's how many jobs
will be created with his South Lake Union plan.
I'm told that's how politics works. You either get on board, or get
out of the way.
DannyK|11.7.08 @ 4:13PM|#
Seriously, if the "green jobs" were productive, we would make money
on them because they would produce more than they
cost.
Exactly! Now you're getting it!
I think the most easily justified part of the green jobs package is
improving basic infrastructure -- this is something that's a
governmental function anyway, it'll act as an economic stimulus,
and it's essential for improving energy efficiency. Three birds
with one stone.
Seward|11.7.08 @ 4:14PM|#
Might I suggest that this is an example of "government failure?" How could such a program as this be remotely defined as "efficient?"
DannyK|11.7.08 @ 4:14PM|#
@Paul:
The good news for you: Gregoire didn't steal the governor's race
this time.
The bad news: um...
Lefiti|11.7.08 @ 4:14PM|#
No puppet, man. George Bush is the bottom line for every problem we are facing today.
Paul|11.7.08 @ 4:18PM|#
George Bush is the bottom line for every problem we are
facing today.
Agreed. We need more and varied bottom lines.
economist|11.7.08 @ 4:19PM|#
To the Guy Sock-Puppeting Lefiti,
Please don't beat a dead horse. We all know that Lefiti is a giant
douche. He says enough to embarrass himself without other people
attributing stuff to him.
|11.7.08 @ 4:20PM|#
I dunno, that doesn't sound like too much money for 5 million
schmucks running on treadmills to generate clean power for the
country. I figure they'll work in shifts to keep the initial
capital investment costs down.
Oh, that's not what they'll be doing?
|11.7.08 @ 4:23PM|#
I think the most easily justified part of the green jobs package
is improving basic infrastructure
We could just do that anyway. They don't have to be "green".
Further most of the infrastructure that needs repaired are roads
which are not very green. If there is a "green project" out there
that is needed and profitable the private sector will do it without
the government help.
it'll act as an economic stimulus, and it's essential for improving
energy efficiency.
Since energy costs money, we already have plenty incentive to be
efficient. As far as it being an economic stimulus, the money has
to come from somewhere. You either borrow it or you tax it. Either
way it id money being taken from another purpose. You are robbing
Peter to pay Paul. The only "economic stimulous" is for people to
be more productive. Everything else is just moving money
around.
God it is going to be a long four years.
sage|11.7.08 @ 4:23PM|#
The good news for you: Gregoire didn't steal the governor's
race this time.
She didn't have to. Don't forget that she only needs to carry King
County. And in King County, dead people, felons, and infants can
vote. And they can vote as many times as they like. For some odd
reason they mostly vote for the Democrat.
economist|11.7.08 @ 4:31PM|#
If we're really so worried about unemployment, I have an idea to
start an Antarctic colony. This way we can send our surplus
population to settle there and extract natural resources for the
mother country.
The only downside is that the penguins are getting smarter, and now
have firearms. We should therefore expect heavy native
resistance.
|11.7.08 @ 4:32PM|#
It concluded that five million green jobs could be had with an investment of $500 billion -- more than three times Mr. Obama's number [ of $150 billion].
Apollo Alliance says, "Give 'em $100k per year!"
Obama says, "Give 'em $30k per year!"
I guess it really depends on what types of jobs are being
discussed. I can easily see generating 5M jobs for $30k a pop in
almost any area except San Francisco, Los Angeles, D.C. or New York
City.
|11.7.08 @ 4:33PM|#
Reminds me of one my favorite lines from "Yes, Minister" in which the chief bureaucrat explains that, in government, one doesn't measures success in terms of results but in terms of activity. Having lots of people pursuing this green nirvana is far more important than achieving it.
|11.7.08 @ 4:34PM|#
"If we're really so worried about unemployment, I have an idea
to start an Antarctic colony. This way we can send our surplus
population to settle there and extract natural resources for the
mother country."
How about buying Siberia from the Russians? They are going to need
cash with the price of oil the way it is. Their population is
emploding. They could retrench into a smaller area and give us the
empty parts left over. They can even keep the oil. The rest of it
can be set up as a free government colony, kind of like Alaska used
to be.
Seward|11.7.08 @ 4:35PM|#
economist,
Beyond a few pilot projects I suspect that none of this will ever
come to pass.
|11.7.08 @ 4:39PM|#
Several studies estimate that $1 invested in renewable
energy or energy efficiency commemorative plates would yield
up to four times as many jobs as $1 invested in oil and
gas conventional dinnerware, whose basic infrastructure of
forks, spoons and knives has been around for years.
FTFY
economist|11.7.08 @ 4:40PM|#
John,
Good idea. Though I was planning on making that the resettlement
area people who fail to love, serve, and praise the almighty Obama
(PBUH).
economist|11.7.08 @ 4:42PM|#
Several studies also indicate that if we had five million people
pedaling stationary bicycles connected to generators, we could
replace 10%* of the electricity currently produced by coal-fired
generators.
*This number was removed from my ass during my annual colonoscopy,
as the doctors feared it might be cancerous.
|11.7.08 @ 4:45PM|#
We can call the infrastructure improvement program, oh,
something like, oh, Works Progress Administration or something. I
know it's not catchy but maybe it could be used. We'll build stuff
and things. It worked when I was a kid.
Oh wait....
|11.7.08 @ 4:46PM|#
"Damn. I was planning on reducing our dependence on foreign oil
by riding my new pony to my high-paying green-collar job."
I will ride my unicorn, as soon as Obama delivers it. It shoots
rainbows from it's eyeballs.
|11.7.08 @ 4:52PM|#
" Though I was planning on making that the resettlement area
people who fail to love, serve, and praise the almighty Obama
(PBUH)."
That was my plan to and I am hoping to be one of the ones
re-settled.
Seriously though, I don't think any of this stuff can happen. The
facts are
1. George Bush broke the bank and we are going to have an enormous
deficit this year thanks to the bailouts.
2. We are at the begining of what appears to be a massive
recession.
3. There is a limit to how high the deficit cna go before the bond
markets rebel and it seems we are getting close to it right
now.
4. Only a lunatic bent on ensuring that his side never gets in
power for a decade or more would engage in a massive tax increase
during a deep recession.
5. Since the economy is contracting and we are not sure where we
are on the Laffer curve it is unclear how much if at all raising
taxes will actually increase revenue.
6. Obama's bag of goodies that he has promised liberal interests
groups is going to very very expensive.
7. There is no peace dividend like there was in the 1990s. Even if
we pulled out of Iraq tommorow that would only be $120 billion a
year which is chump change these days.
Am I missing something or is there no where to get the money to do
all of this stuff? I don't see how you do it. In the end, the
Republicans' spending bender may be what saves us from the
Democrats' going on another one.
sage|11.7.08 @ 4:56PM|#
Am I missing something or is there no where to get the money
to do all of this stuff?
Duh. You just print more of it!
|11.7.08 @ 5:00PM|#
The entire 'green job' panacea reeks of Ghandi's Indian solution; we'll deny use of efficient technology and return to the day of sheer manual labor to assure full employment. Time for sackcloth garments? But then BHO will tax our labor induced CO2 exhalations and demand we buy bogus carbon offsets at the company store...
Not That Michael|11.7.08 @ 5:22PM|#
I dunno, that doesn't sound like too much money for 5
million schmucks running on treadmills to generate clean power for
the country.
We could save the environment and eliminate childhood obesity in
one fell swoop. Betcha wish you thought of that one, eh Rahm?
Eh?
DannyK|11.8.08 @ 12:32AM|#
Am I missing something or is there no where to get the money
to do all of this stuff? I don't see how you do it. In the end, the
Republicans' spending bender may be what saves us from the
Democrats' going on another one.
Ah yes, the "Bush's profligacy will force Obama to be responsible"
theory. As I recall, Bill Clinton abandoned most of the promises
he'd made to his base in 1992 to fix the deficit and pass NAFTA.
This made him very very popular with the Republicans, who then
treated him with great respect, especially after the 1994
election.
That's clearly the model Obama should emulate.
Seriously, I'm looking for a silver lining here. I'd much rather
have bridges that don't fall down and a Smart Grid than billions
more being given on silver platters to big companies. Hell, AIG has
already spent $8-9 billion on handjobs alone!
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|11.8.08 @ 2:14AM|#
I always cringe a little when I see or hear the term
"green-collar jobs." What a bunch of bullshit. They're really no
different than regular laboratory, engineering and other high-skill
jobs building regular energy, except this is rarer.
Overall, I think people foretelling some kind of "green revolution"
are just full of it. Unless we elect a bunch of new leaders who
actually give a shit, it's not gonna happen. It will only happen
incrementally, at best. Obama's not gonna pass a whole bunch of
alternative energy investments overnight. We've been trying to get
to alternative energy for over 30 years! It still hasn't happened,
just like we've failed to pass immigration reform, but it becomes a
big issue at least once every 5-10 years.
The creating jobs nonsense forgets that gov't is not the best
determinant of what kind of workers are unemployed. Hell, the labor
stats on the unemployment rate don't even break it down into kinds
of workers! It just says a percentage. How do you know that a lot
of those are high-skilled workers? High-skilled workers are much
more likely to find new jobs relatively easily even if they do get
fired, so it's hard to imagine they'd be out of a job for
long.
Ultimately, most of the unemployed are probably low-skilled workers
who cannot benefit and take these green jobs b/c they're just not
trained for it. So this "green-collar" job bullshit is just that.
The only way they'll fill those jobs is enough scientists,
engineers, etc. decide to quit their jobs and work for the gov't,
and then those employers now have lots of rapid job openings and
are screwed. So there's no real net gain in jobs, just a
switch.
I never believed that 5 million jobs number for a second. How gov't
can create 5 million permanent high-skill jobs effectively doesn't
add up.
Guy Montag|11.8.08 @ 9:26AM|#
Thank goodness nobody at Reason endorsed anybody with in this election with these crazy ideas . . .
|11.8.08 @ 3:18PM|#
Correct Brandon
We learned in 9th grade science - energy = energy. It takes x
number of kilowatt hours to heat my house and keep the lights on.
It doesn't matter if you generate it with coal or a windmill.
The only way to create 5 million new jobs is to create 10 million
new jobs minus the 5 million jobs lost in coal mining, railroads,
etc.
|11.9.08 @ 6:14PM|#
I think Obama is going for starry eyed liberal college grads who will work for 30k/year. Now the Alliance are thinking the same, maybe, but 30k to the worker 70k to Alliances overhead. Already the wheels of industry are on it spinning.
Kate Gordon|11.10.08 @ 5:12PM|#
Dear Reason,
I was misquoted in the WSJ article. what follows is my response to
the editors.
Thank you,
Kate Gordon
Re: article entitled - "Does Green Energy Add 5 Million Jobs?
Potent Pitch, but Numbers Are Squishy'
Dear Editors:
The Wall Street Journal, in an article about clean energy
investments and green-collar jobs printed on November 7, 2008
incorrectly asserted that varying job creation estimates are
"squishy." I was surprised by a quote attributed to me that implied
that Apollo's five million job number is "just to inspire
people."
Well, the projection of five million green-collar jobs is accurate
and inspiring. It is inspiring to think of a federal investment
strategy that can catalyze the American economy by creating new
demand for clean energy and energy efficiency systems. It is
inspiring to think about the investments in job training to help
scale up America's workforce to prepare to make, install, and
maintain these products. It is truly awe-inspiring to think of the
millions of Americans that can be put to work all over this
country, in a huge range of occupations, moving America toward a
clean energy future.
But it is not just inspiring - it is accurate. In The New Apollo
Program, we argue for a $50 billion annual investment program over
ten years. It is an investment in all sectors of the American
economy: from green construction to energy efficiency retrofits;
from our transportation system to our power grid; from our existing
factories to cutting-edge research, development and deployment
opportunities. Based on a comprehensive study on a very similar set
of proposals that was done for Apollo in 2004 by economist and
Nobel laureate M. Ray Perryman, this level of federal investment
will create or retain at least five million jobs in America. Most
of these are on-site construction, manufacturing, and
transportation jobs - jobs in industries that tend to pay a
family-supporting wage and benefits, and that have anchored
America's middle class for generations.
Dr. Perryman's data show also that the economic benefits of the
Apollo investment strategy don't stop at on-site jobs. These
investments will create millions more jobs in associated
industries, like the trucking companies moving the wind turbines,
the lawyers and accountants helping broker deals between new clean
energy businesses, or even the small restaurants and stores
catering to the linemen and women upgrading the transmission grid
in countless towns across the country.
Other studies, such as the "Green Recovery" paper recently released
by the Center for American Progress, also include the positive
economic impact created by, for instance, lower energy bills as a
result of more clean energy options. Lower bills equal more money
in consumers' pockets, equal more spending in the local economy,
equal more jobs. These "indirect" jobs are included in
President-elect Obama's green jobs calculations, explaining why he
comes to the five million job number with a lower initial
investment. The different numbers are by no means "squishy." They
are the result of different initial assumptions, leading to
different results.
What is not in doubt is that clean energy policies and investments
create jobs. Just look at Newton, Iowa, where laid-off Whirlpool
employees are now making wind turbine blades for General Electric.
Or Sacramento, California, where a disused nuclear plant is now
home to a solar array capable of generating as much power as the
plant ever did.
At Apollo, we are awestruck every day by stories like these, and by
the sheer potential scale of the new green economy - an economy
that can and should create millions of high-quality, decent jobs
for hardworking Americans who want to make a decent wage while also
fighting back global warming.
Darn right we're inspired. Aren't you?
Kate Gordon
Co-Director
Apollo Alliance
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