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Philadelphia vs. Ben Franklin's Secret Shame
Speaking publicly in front of Philadelphia's Independence Hall may soon require a license.
Mayor Michael Nutter signed the law in April amid concerns that some [tour] guides were perpetuating gross inaccuracies, including false claims that Benjamin Franklin had 69 illegitimate children and that three-time widow Betsy Ross killed her husbands.
City officials say they are trying to protect the history that brings millions of tourists to Philadelphia and generates billions of dollars in revenue every year. They don't want anyone leaving town believing that Ben Franklin stands atop City Hall (it's William Penn) or that homes were once taxed based on how wide they were.
"Tourism is a major part of our local economy," said Douglas Oliver, a spokesman for the mayor. "It is reasonable to ensure that tourists are getting accurate information."
I haven't been on a tour of Philly since I was forced to go as a kid, but I'd be more inclined to go back had anyone informed me about a murder-crazed seamstress-patriot. The Institute for Justice will represent three tour operators who are suing for their right to speak freely about the right to speak freely. On the flip side, Philadelphia Daily News columnist Elmer Smith has a column entitled "Should History Ignorance Be a Protected Right?" You could read the whole column, but Trey Parker and Matt Stone have already summarized it for you.
|7.7.08 @ 12:23PM|#
I haven't been on a tour of Philly since I was forced to go
as a kid, but I'd be more inclined to go back had anyone informed
me about a murder-crazed seamstress-patriot
I kind of want to move to Philly now just to start a tour guide
business featuring completely made up facts.
|7.7.08 @ 12:32PM|#
The city of Philadelphia has it'e collective head implanted
firmly between it's collective butt cheeks.
When I think of all the fabrications and omiisions that were part
of the public school U.S. history curriculum I was
taught subjected to as a child, the
government banning alternatative, even bullshit, versions is
downright laughable.
thoreau|7.7.08 @ 12:36PM|#
I have a friend who's a history professor these days, and bad tour guides just drive him up the wall. When he was a college student, he made it his mission to debunk stories told by campus tour guides.
gorgonzola\'s foil|7.7.08 @ 12:46PM|#
As a Philadelphia resident I have to ask: The DAILY NEWS, home of the cranky Mr Anti-Political Correctness Mike Smerconish, came out with an editorial against the IJ in this case? Get out!
Guy Montag|7.7.08 @ 12:49PM|#
I knew the banning of voting in bars was just the beginning of
the downward spiral of Philly.
JsD,
It does not stop at the gun school level. In college I had
an Astronomy professor spread all sorts of falsehoods about the US
Space Program. Might have had something to do with her being a
non-select for the Astronaut Scientist Program. One of her best
ones was that Neil Armstrong got to walk on the moon first because
he was the mission commander and RHIP. Did not bother mentioning
that the LEM Pilot was Buzz Aldrin, who needed to stay at the
controls while the Commander went outside to check things
out.
Oh, if anybody does the Pentagon tour any time soon, I have a list
of corrections to that one too.
|7.7.08 @ 12:52PM|#
Philly just wishes it was Washington D.C.
Surely D.C. has some dumb-shit laws like this, right? If not,
Philly got there before DC! Just like how Philly was the CAPITOL
before DC!
Jennifer|7.7.08 @ 12:53PM|#
A woman in spiked heels and fishnet stockings can't walk up
to a car and say, "Hey, Joe, wanna give it a go?" even though she,
too. is arguably working in the city's tourism industry.
That's one of the stupidest analogies I've read all week.
Prostitution laws have nothing to do with free-speech restrictions
or the lack thereof.
Guy Montag|7.7.08 @ 12:53PM|#
Wouldn't there be a fraud basis for suing the
operators?
Possibly. So, I take the tour and then take the operator to court
to get my $15 back?
How about folks around there record these guys and post their
nonsense on the intertubes, with appropriate corrections and
laughter?
Kramer (& Rusty)|7.7.08 @ 12:56PM|#
Of course, uh, this is Central Park. This was designed in 1850 by Joe Peppitone. Built during the Civil War so the northern armies could practice fighting on . . . on grass.
t3knomanser|7.7.08 @ 12:59PM|#
Does this law apply to tour guides that give free tours of the
grounds? Does it apply to tour guides giving tours of privately
owned property?
I ask, because nobody seems to be addressing that point, which is
obviously the most important element of this debate.
Here's the thing: if you wish to turn a profit through your use of
public land, than the public has every right to regulate your use
of that land. Vendors can't sell souvenirs on public land without
permits, why should tour guides be any different?
If this only applies to tours given on public land by tour guides
selling their services, then I have no issue here. Nobody's free
speech is being restricted, nor is their right to do business.
robc|7.7.08 @ 1:01PM|#
that homes were once taxed based on how wide they
were.
I recently (like within the last month) heard this as an
explanation for an older neighborhood in Louisville being entirely
shotgun houses. Is this a common myth or did property taxation
actually ever exist this way?
Guy Montag|7.7.08 @ 1:04PM|#
Sorry to hype on my office building so much in one thread, but I
hear that the gun schools still pass around the myth that
the Pentagon was built with five sides to represent the five
branches of the military!
1. There have never been 5 branches of the US military.
2. It is shaped this way because it is the shape that fit the
proposed location, location was changed bu shape kept and FDR liked
the unique shape for a building.
Jennifer|7.7.08 @ 1:05PM|#
Check this out, from the column:
That point [about the importance of free speech] may have been
exceeded yesterday by a fine young lawyer named Robert McNamara
from an organization of constitutional zealots called the Institute
for Justice. The institute claims a long string of successes in its
campaigns to get government off the backs of small businesses.
[Examples of stupid laws IOJ fought, all mentioned on Hit and Run
back in the day.]
It's good to know that there are still young people in America
who rise up in righteous indignation over these abuses of
government power.
But the institute and I part company on their campaign to
strike down a law signed by Mayor Nutter in April to require Center
City tour-guide operators to be certified, licensed and
knowledgeable.
So the columnist agrees with and admires the IOJ's opposition to
laws requiring licenses for florists, interior decorators or
hair-braiders, but the second the IOJ does something with
which the columnist disagrees, they become "constitutional
zealots?" How does Elmer Smith define "zealot": anyone who
disagrees with me on any issue?
Gratuituous cheap name shot: "Mayor Nutter" is a fine example of
political truth in advertising.
Fluffy|7.7.08 @ 1:05PM|#
Here's the thing: if you wish to turn a profit through your
use of public land, than the public has every right to regulate
your use of that land. Vendors can't sell souvenirs on public land
without permits, why should tour guides be any
different?
Because we have a Constitutional amendment that says that what you
say on the public commons cannot be restricted by law?
If I am a tour guide operator who is just absolutely
adamant that the Revolutionary War didn't really happen, the
city of Philadelphia is restricting my right to say that on my
tour.
Possibly. So, I take the tour and then take the operator to
court to get my $15 back?
The fact that the amount in question is too paltry to justify
litigation would seem to me to further argue against the merits of
the law. Having conditioned the public to accept the licensure of
occupations in "scary" cases [Oh noes! We have to license
surgeons!] the state is now gradually expanding licensure into
areas that have absolutely no meaningful public health or safety
impact. This is what we get for trying to be reasonable and not
lynching the first legislator who wanted to license any occupation
whatsoever. [I mean a general historical "we", of course.]
Guy Montag|7.7.08 @ 1:07PM|#
robc,
Not sure. I would guess that one could find someplace
where that is true.
I seem to remember that there was some practical reason for the
shotgun houses, had more to do with livability. Also, seems like a
good shape for increasing dwelling density without chopping up the
lots too much.
|7.7.08 @ 1:07PM|#
I am shocked that tour guides routinely omit the fact that Spiro Agnew routinely visited Philly to bugger the crack in the Liberty Bell...
t3knomanser|7.7.08 @ 1:09PM|#
"Because we have a Constitutional amendment that says that what
you say on the public commons cannot be restricted by law?"
But you don't have any right to make money doing it. So long as
this law doesn't apply to people giving tours for free or on
private land, there's no issue.
|7.7.08 @ 1:10PM|#
Quite a conundrum for me. I'm pretty radical in how far I go
with free speech. About the only thing I make exception for is
slander and fraud.
I'd be good with a fraud suit based on the tour guide representing
his information as factual. But what kind of damages are we
talking. Besides, most people would rather hear the myth anyway,
that's why they tell them.
But it's a big deal to me. Tour guides spewing bullshit has really
ruined a lot of my tourism. I want to know the factual history,
it's important to me. But I don't want to be a historian. Unless
your personally acquainted with someone who can give you the scoop,
you're pretty much screwed on anything you haven't researched
yourself.
|7.7.08 @ 1:16PM|#
While I was in the aforementioned public school system, a wise
man wrote these words.
♪When I think back
On all the crap I learned in high school
It's a wonder
I can think at all
And though my lack of edu---cation
Hasn't hurt me none
I can read the writing on the wall♪
It seems appropriate for the thread.
|7.7.08 @ 1:17PM|#
ed | July 7, 2008, 1:15pm | #
People who go on tours deserve to be lied to.
Why do you say that?
Jennifer|7.7.08 @ 1:17PM|#
I'd be good with a fraud suit based on the tour guide
representing his information as factual.
But is it fraud if the person doesn't know it's false? All
lies are untruths, but not all untruths are lies.
robc|7.7.08 @ 1:22PM|#
Can I sue the Charleston SC ghost tours for fraud? Im pretty sure they were just making shit up. But it was entertaining.
Elemenope|7.7.08 @ 1:23PM|#
And fraud in many jurisdictions requires some direct pecuniary motive on behalf of the liar following directly from the lie (I know it does here in RI). Otherwise it's merely a form of 'false advertising' or 'bad business practice', a minor civil matter.
|7.7.08 @ 1:35PM|#
And here I thought Benjamin Franklin was that dude who got roaring drunk, pretended to screw the Liberty Bell--while smacking its make-believe butt, which led to its cracking--and said, "Thy liberty is my wench." Damn those tour guides!!!
|7.7.08 @ 1:39PM|#
Jennifer,
If the tour guide spewing information as historical fact, then she
is representing herself as being a historian. If what she's saying
can be readily shown to be bullshit that no first year history
student could mistake as accurate, then I'd say it's fraud.
But if the guide started the tour by saying something like "I am
not a historian and what I tell you today may or may not be
historical fact. But you can be sure that everything I tell you is
a genuine legend of Philadelphia and part of our American
Heritage." I don't think one in a thousand of the hat-wearing,
camera-toting boobgeois would bat an eye.
|7.7.08 @ 1:45PM|#
Indeed, when I'm able to suspend disbelief even I can buy into the fun. I've had a fine time being told the "history" of Paul Bunyan and the like. What pisses me off is when the make up crap about actual historical people and events.
Fred|7.7.08 @ 1:48PM|#
What is the problem here? No on is restricting their right to speak, only saying they need a permit.
Naga Sadow|7.7.08 @ 1:51PM|#
Oh . . . so then when a history teacher of mine jokingly ripped
off Family Guy for a few laughs on the holidays last year I was
supposed to be offended?
From the lips of the teacher: As we all know Christmas is the time
of year when Jesus rises from the grave to feast on the flesh of
the living . . . BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!
|7.7.08 @ 2:30PM|#
Why is a new law always the "solution"? What makes it so hard
for people to understand that there are usually voluntary means to
resolve issues such as these.
How hard is it to require your employees to read the same pamphlets
they sell to the tourists? How hard is it for a supervisor to ride
along and audit them? How hard is it tell them not to repeat false
myths about Franklin and Ross? You don't need a law, you just need
to start firing the tour guides who refuse to stick to the facts!
Now that we have a law, the guides are going to stop adlibing and
start reading from prepared scripts. Thus the tourists are poorer
off.
|7.7.08 @ 2:37PM|#
"Should History Ignorance Be a Protected Right?"
Indeed. It's well established that the Earth was created 6,000
years ago by the omnipotent hand of YHWH, and I don't think it's
too much to ask that people are threatened with jail time if they
say anything different.
|7.7.08 @ 2:38PM|#
A tour guide is not representing themselves as historians. They
are representing themselves as tour guides, i.e. people who
couldn't get a better job than giving tours to tourists at $10/hour
in 100 degree heat.
Hell, they probably tell whoppers just to see how many people will
believe them, and so they have something to joke about with the
other guides.
Jennifer|7.7.08 @ 2:48PM|#
If the tour guide spewing information as historical fact,
then she is representing herself as being a historian. If what
she's saying can be readily shown to be bullshit that no first year
history student could mistake as accurate, then I'd say it's
fraud.
I have a book of odd-trivia facts, published within the past few
years, which makes a bullshit claim that many still believe: if
you're at the bottom of a deep well on a sunny day, you can look up
and see stars in the sky. By your standard, can I sue the publisher
for fraud?
Guy Montag|7.7.08 @ 3:01PM|#
Theory: BernieS of 2600 Magazine, GTA-SA (plus other RockStar games), and Off the Hook fame is a well practiced social engineering expert, longtime resident of Philly. He could have put all of these false "facts" out there in a manner believable by tour guides. The result, of course, is an overreaction by government as many madcap hyjinks ensue!
|7.7.08 @ 3:14PM|#
When I think of all the fabrications and omiisions that were
part of the public school U.S. history curriculum
Yep, and it wasn't just in history. I remember my junior-high
science teacher telling us that fish are able to get oxygen from
the water because water molecules are made up of two hydrogen atoms
and one oxygen atom.
Guy Montag|7.7.08 @ 3:21PM|#
Brian Courts,
Don't forget that one of "leaving the atsmophere to escape the
gravitational field of the earth"!
|7.7.08 @ 3:26PM|#
I have a book of odd-trivia facts, published within the past
few years, which makes a bullshit claim that many still believe: if
you're at the bottom of a deep well on a sunny day, you can look up
and see stars in the sky. By your standard, can I sue the publisher
for fraud?
You say it's a book of "odd-trivia facts". So it's claiming to be
"factual" yet not authoritative. I could go either way on this, but
even if it is fraud, what's the liability? What are your damages?
The price of the book? Or the price of the book times the ratio of
BS to good information?
Which is the point I was trying to make about the tour guide. As
much as I feel cheated, even if I went as far as to call it fraud
(which I'm not very emphatic about), where does that get me? My
money back from the tour? Not worth pursuing.
I don't know what to do about BS tour guides. I just know they
really piss me off. I don't see a legal remedy and I don't see the
market as any help.
|7.7.08 @ 3:40PM|#
The width-based peoperty tax is real, but I could only find it
in New Orleans. The tax is much younger than Philadelphia, which is
a pretty old city by American standards.
Oddly, houses are still built as if they were taxed this way even
though they aren't. Fernandina Beach, FL has some.
|7.7.08 @ 3:44PM|#
Don't forget that one of "leaving the atsmophere to escape
the gravitational field of the earth"!
Ah yes, the infamous "there's no gravity in outer space"
explanation. Always loved that one too.
Fluffy|7.7.08 @ 3:51PM|#
The people who own the property, i.e. the
citizens.
The Constitution does not say anything about an exception to the
first amendment for speech where you make money.
If it did, the state could ban the sale of books by any authors it
found acceptable, and then say, "Your speech isn't banned if you
want to give your books away for free." Sorry.
What is the problem here? No on is restricting their right to
speak, only saying they need a permit.
No, they're saying that you need a permit and you can only get a
permit if you state that you accept government definitions of
historical orthodoxy.
In addition, it may be a complete non sequitur to talk about this
law as a way to protect historical accuracy anyway. The proposed
law does not, in fact, make it illegal to offer historically
inaccurate tour information. It makes it equally illegal for me to
offer both inaccurate AND accurate tour information in
Philadelphia. If I don't take a test and get a license. Similarly,
if I take a test and get a license, it would not be illegal for me
to offer completely nonsensical information on my tours.
|7.7.08 @ 4:36PM|#
Well Put Fluffy. But what about my desire to have someone knowledgeable show me around and give me the straight skinny. Do I just have to suck on it because there aren't enough people who give a rat's ass for the market to respond? That really blows. I could be getting so much more out of seeing stuff, if only I knew how to seduce History and Anthropology majors.
|7.7.08 @ 4:50PM|#
I remember my junior-high science teacher telling us that
fish are able to get oxygen from the water because water molecules
are made up of two hydrogen atoms and one oxygen atom.
Electric eels maybe...
|7.7.08 @ 4:56PM|#
Here's the thing: if you wish to turn a profit through your use of public land, than the public has every right to regulate your use of that land. Vendors can't sell souvenirs on public land without permits, why should tour guides be any different?
By that logic there would be no problem with laws forcing tour
guides to provide false information. Since the public is
providing the land, they get to decide what tour guides say,
no?
Tym|7.7.08 @ 5:08PM|#
I remember my junior-high science teacher telling us that
fish are able to get oxygen from the water because water molecules
are made up of two hydrogen atoms and one oxygen atom.
Stupid, so they think fish perform electrolysis?
I remember my 8 grade science teacher saying that a radioactive
element will decay forever because you can always cut the number of
atoms in half.
Also remember a 4 grade teacher saying that the word hot in hot
chocolate is an adjective, it is not, because it is not a piece of
chocolate that is hot, "hot chocolate" is like a single word, a
noun.
|7.7.08 @ 5:42PM|#
Tym,
You've never heard of a cup of chocolate? Chocolate was originally
consumed exclusively in its liquid form--it wasn't until Europeans
discovered it that it was formed into bars.
|7.7.08 @ 5:49PM|#
The Armenian genocide never happened. If you clain it did, you can be prosecuted in Turkey. Methinks this is a VERY bad idea.
Syd|7.7.08 @ 6:58PM|#
Guy Montag | July 7, 2008, 1:04pm | #
Sorry to hype on my office building so much in one thread, but I
hear that the gun schools still pass around the myth that the
Pentagon was built with five sides to represent the five branches
of the military!
1. There have never been 5 branches of the US military.
2. It is shaped this way because it is the shape that fit the
proposed location, location was changed bu shape kept and FDR liked
the unique shape for a building.
The Pentagon was built in that shape to confine the devil
imprisoned in its center. That's why we're referred to as The Great
Satan.
|7.7.08 @ 7:15PM|#
Generally speaking, whenever govt. is in the business of
determining what is Truth (tm) and what isn't - we're in trouble.
It's the fundamental problem with the fairness doctrine - and man
are there cries for a new fairness doctrine on the left.
There are narrow areas where govt. should step up and carefully
regulate Truth (tm). Doctors who are giving medical advice,
Lawyers, food labels.
But TOUR GUIDES? Cmon.
|7.7.08 @ 7:19PM|#
"I don't know what to do about BS tour guides. I just know they
really piss me off. I don't see a legal remedy and I don't see the
market as any help."
The "remedy" is to stand next to the tour guide (but no so close as
to be harassing them) and CORRECT their misstatements.
This could actually be very funny and entertaining to do.
Remember, the cure for bad speech is good speech - not lots of
laws.
|7.7.08 @ 8:34PM|#
"Because we have a Constitutional amendment that says that
what you say on the public commons cannot be restricted by
law?"
But you don't have any right to make money doing it. So long as
this law doesn't apply to people giving tours for free or on
private land, there's no issue.< /i>
So I guess that if publishers sell their magazines and newspapers,
rather than just giving them away for free, there's no
constitutional objection to requiring them to be licensed by the
government? Come to think of it, that's not such a bad idea: I keep
reading all kinds of incorrect stuff in the MSM, and I think that
government licensing is just the thing to keep them accurate.
Then we can move to the intertubes, or at least those sites that
accept advertising. (Hit and Run, you're on notice!)
miche|7.7.08 @ 10:12PM|#
I don't know what to do about BS tour guides. I just know they really piss me off.
I never went in for tours until the trip I'm on right now. We're in
Rome celebrating my little one's 17th birthday and we gladly forked
over a few extra euros to skip the line and do a tour of the
Colosseum. Saved a few hours of waiting time, got some good info
(not my first trip here) and left the group early to go have some
drinks. We were going to do the same today at the Vatican but
Little Bit took a second look at the 3 hour line and said that the
church was making enough cash and she'd be happy with St. Peters on
its own. (in the end a very good thing as the train and bus workers
went on strike- it was hard enough to find a cab while most people
were still waiting to get in.)
|7.7.08 @ 10:16PM|#
Army, Navy, Air Force, Marines, Coast Guard
You tell the Marines they're part of the Navy.
ben|7.7.08 @ 11:37PM|#
I guess I have to stop telling people Philadelphia was annexed from the Kievan Rus in 1583 after the local daimyo was drawn and quartered at Tyburn Cross...
html rooter|7.8.08 @ 2:25AM|#
Who screwed up the HTML tags?
seamus seems to have clogged the html toilet with his "< /i>"
up there
But there, nothing a little plunging couldn't fix. :)
dpsc|7.8.08 @ 3:33AM|#
Elaboration on the facts is a long-standing tradition in our
Republic. In fact, after the Reasonista-engineered revolution I
plan to give tours of the Reason offices.
I'll point out historical oddities like: "This is the desk upon
which our Imperator [Gillespie] first enjoyed the licentious
company of Septimus Welch. When later asked, his only remark was:
'Postrel really was better.' I've always felt that he regretted
having her strangled during the Night of the Long Copier Ribbons."
And so forth.
Of course, having achieved an absolute anarchic state through their
labors, the remaining heterodox Reasonistas will likely have my
tongue cut out for that. Oh well, vita longa, lingua brevis, as I
always say, or rather mouth incomprehensibly.
Guy Montag|7.8.08 @ 4:24AM|#
George,
Now try looking up when the Pentagon was built and when the Air
Force was created.
Bonus points for finding out where the Coast Guard fits in the
federal government.
|7.8.08 @ 10:20AM|#
seamus seems to have clogged the html toilet with his "<
/i>" up there
Oops. Sorry about that.
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