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The Truth is Out There
Via Breitbart, I submit the following without comment:
The Vatican's chief astronomer says that believing in aliens does not contradict faith in God.
The Rev. Jose Gabriel Funes, the Jesuit director of the Vatican Observatory, says that the vastness of the universe means it is possible there could be other forms of life outside Earth, even intelligent ones.
In an interview published Tuesday by Vatican newspaper L'Osservatore Romano, Funes says that such a notion "doesn't contradict our faith" because aliens would still be God's creatures.
|5.13.08 @ 2:31PM|#
Can we give the Vatican some credit for not trying to contradict science? (Also, credit to the Jesuits. They always come off as incredibly well reasoned theologians.)
Fluffy|5.13.08 @ 2:32PM|#
So that novel I read where the Church sends some Jesuits in an asteroid to Alpha Centauri to convert the aliens there was TRUE! I knew it!
Neil|5.13.08 @ 2:34PM|#
Bill Clinton, after he became President asked his staff to find
out whether there are UFOs, and who shot JFK.
For once I and Bubba would have done the exact same thing.
robc|5.13.08 @ 2:36PM|#
CS Lewis thought the same. Covered it in both fiction and
non-fiction. He considered the following possibilities:
A. Aliens wouldnt be "fallen"
B. Aliens would be corrupted and unredeemable
C. Aliens would be fallen and the gospel would need to be spread to
them.
D. Aliens would be fallen and had their own means of
salvation.
I think those were the only options he considered. He also said we
would have to figure out which applied after meeting them.
Dello|5.13.08 @ 2:36PM|#
I believe that there are aliens, because I refuse to believe that in all the vastness of the universe, humans are as good as it gets.
|5.13.08 @ 2:37PM|#
Jim Bob, that first Hyperion novel is still one of my all-time favorites. The series steadily declined thereafter, although Dan Simmons generally rocks. His Song of Kali is also one of the best horror novels ever written, IMO.
|5.13.08 @ 2:39PM|#
Can we give the Vatican some credit for not trying to
contradict science?
No. Once the Vatican retracts their demonstrably false pronouncement
that latex condoms don't stop HIV/AIDS then we can talk about
giving them credit. Until then, they're a pariah.
Episiarch|5.13.08 @ 2:39PM|#
Bill Clinton, after he became President asked his staff to
find out whether there are UFOs, and who shot JFK.
And Chris Carter and the X-Files were born...via secret
government funding.
Neil|5.13.08 @ 2:44PM|#
Episiarch, I know your feelings about 80s tv shows. But what about 90s tv shows?
|5.13.08 @ 2:45PM|#
Pratchett, as always, said it best:
The truth may be out there, but lies are in your head.
And I'll add that it is the RCC [among many others] that keep them
there.
Shirley Knott
robc|5.13.08 @ 2:46PM|#
He wouldn't tell us if he did recieve any, but I bet he
did.
Once again, using the presidency for personal gain.
grrgle|5.13.08 @ 2:46PM|#
Didn't the Vatican astronomer get in trouble last year or so for saying something about evolution, or birth control or something? I think it was evolution.
|5.13.08 @ 2:47PM|#
We have not one speck of physical evidence that alien life exists anywhere. So aliens are rather like God in that way. It's understandable that the church should encourage faith rather than empirical observation. However, the vastness of the universe makes the existence of alien life appear plausible, whereas the vastness of the universe seems to make many fundamentalist Christians recoil in horror, clinging to their visions of God's 6000 year old playset. At least the Catholic Church is trying to come to grips with reality.
|5.13.08 @ 2:49PM|#
R C Dean,
I have read almost all of Simmons's published work except Song
of Kali. I will purchase it when I can.
His characterization of far-future religion may be more apt than
even I thought, though. When we make contact, it won't be long
before somebody's telling the aliens the good news.
Fluffy|5.13.08 @ 2:50PM|#
Oh, sorry robc, my bad.
I thought:
And what answers did he receive?
referred to the CS Lewis questions. As in, you had posted twice in
a row and forgotten to switch identities. Stupid me.
Move along, nothing to see here.
|5.13.08 @ 2:54PM|#
A good article on ET (or lack thereof) and the human prospect,
from a cosmological point of view:
The Great Filter:
Are We Almost Past It?
|5.13.08 @ 2:54PM|#
In an interview published Tuesday by Vatican newspaper L'Osservatore Romano, Funes says that such a notion "doesn't contradict our faith" because aliens would still be God's creatures. "And," he added, with glee, "we could have sex with their children".
Plant Immigration Rights Suppo|5.13.08 @ 2:55PM|#
If you take the stories about angels in a literal sense would
they not technically be "space aliens". Also, how would the INS
handle space aliens? Is this really what INS Division 6
does**
** NOTE: If you do not understand this reference you obviously have
not seen Men In Black.
robc|5.13.08 @ 2:58PM|#
Fluffy,
Also the filter thing autofills my name, so I dont screw up naming
on those occassions I do post under a fake name.
|5.13.08 @ 2:58PM|#
"If you take the stories about angels in a literal sense would
they not technically be "space aliens"."
I think this is what Van Daniken argued.
I remember reading those books as a kid and thinking "wow, this guy
just PROVED they are out there and have been here!"
|5.13.08 @ 2:58PM|#
I think it is important that the assertion was that a belief in
aliens would not contradict a "belief in God." Belief in the truth
of the scriptures, however, is quite another thing. Genesis,
Chapter 5, says quite clearly, "In the day that God created man, in
the likeness of God made he him..."
We styled ourselves "God's favorites," because we were made in "the
likeness of God," and were given dominion over all of "God's
creatures." I think it is interesting that the vatican assertion
was that aliens would also be among "God's creatures."
So would aliens simply be animals? If they didn't look or think
much like us, which species would more accurately reflect "God's
likeness"?
While belief in aliens would not necessarily preclude belief in
"God," it would be hard to believe in a God who made us in "his
likeness" -- i.e., the God of catholicism -- if we were to
encounter sentient aliens, Unless, of course, they seemed exactly
like us.
Not being especially religious, I nevertheless hope that I live to
see the answer to these questions.
Episiarch|5.13.08 @ 3:01PM|#
Episiarch, I know your feelings about 80s tv shows. But what
about 90s tv shows?
Well, Neil, would you say that Beverly Hills: 90210 was
better before they graduated, with its insanely campy morals and
drug/alcohol hysteria, or that it was better after they graduated
and became a sort of Melrose Place-lite?
I say before graduating. Nothing can beat Brenda saying "but
Brandon, she smoked pot!!!"
Episiarch|5.13.08 @ 3:02PM|#
Sigh, my lack of typing skills would give me
away.
I don't know about that.
robc|5.13.08 @ 3:05PM|#
JAM,
Since I mentioned CS Lewis above, I will also mention that he
covered the "God's likeness" issue within his Space
Trilogy.
The aliens on Mars(who were much older than the human race) were of
all different shapes. But still all made in the image of God. The
aliens of Venus (who were younger, in fact newly created) looked
like humans. Only green skinned, IIRC. The main character was
confused, but it was explained to him that it was obvious. Once God
took human form, all his creations from that point on that were
made in his image looked like men.
Maybe not theologically sound, but it was interesting. Quick
review:
Out of the Silent Planet - mediocre at best
Perelandra - very good
That Hideous Strength - ditto, gave me nightmares, only book to
ever do that
Neil|5.13.08 @ 3:05PM|#
I think before they graduated, after that it jumped the
shark.
What did you think of Lois and Clark?
|5.13.08 @ 3:06PM|#
I read something in SciAm about a Level I Multiverse. Apparently it's fairly commonly accepted by cosmologists that there's probably intelligent life elsewhere in the universe (although the odds that such ET-ALFs have come into direct contact with earthlings is exceedingly small).
robc|5.13.08 @ 3:06PM|#
Episiarch,
Jenny Garth is going to be playing the school counselor or
something in the new version of 90210 coming out soon.
Paul|5.13.08 @ 3:16PM|#
after he became President asked his staff to find out
whether there are UFOs, and who shot JFK.
Neil, he got the exact same answer as everyone else: "No" and "Lee
Harvey Oswald".
|5.13.08 @ 3:17PM|#
No. Once the Vatican retracts their demonstrably false
pronouncement that latex condoms don't stop HIV/AIDS then we can
talk about giving them credit. Until then, they're a
pariah.
Technically this is true though. The NIH says proper use of condoms
reduces the risk by 85%. Stopping it would mean 100% reduction for
proper use. This doesn't mean that their recommendations aren't
bunk, but they're technically right.
|5.13.08 @ 3:21PM|#
Neil, he got the exact same answer as everyone else: "No" and "Lee Harvey Oswald".
'Cept he probably got a knowing wink with each answer.
|5.13.08 @ 3:23PM|#
The NIH says proper use of condoms reduces the risk by 85%.
Stopping it would mean 100% reduction for proper use. This doesn't
mean that their recommendations aren't bunk, but they're
technically right.
That's not the Vatican's stance. According to the link,
the Vatican's stance is that the AIDS virus can permeate the
condom. This is simply false. There is a difference between condom
failure rate (which has to do with breakage and unexpected removal)
and the ability of latex to prevent the passage of viruses.
Fr. Guido Sarducci|5.13.08 @ 3:28PM|#
I hear-a also that-a the Holy Father says if they are
intelligent, you know, like-a us, then they should be converted and
some a them the Church, she'll-a ordain, too.
But not-a the female aliens. That would-a be going too far!
Abdul|5.13.08 @ 3:41PM|#
Cardinal Trujilo cannot retract the statement about condoms.
He's dead. (Although I suppose the Church is founded upon the idea
that death doesn't stop all communication).
In his own words, he based his statement on scientific studies (I
can't vouch for the studies).
catholic.org/featured/headline.php?ID=488
While Trujilo claimed condom failure rates of 15-20%, the WHO
claimed it was more like 90%. Is it worth it to quibble over
5-10%?
|5.13.08 @ 3:50PM|#
Apparently it's fairly commonly accepted by cosmologists
that there's probably intelligent life elsewhere in the
universe
Even if the emergence of intelligent life is very rare, we have no
reason to believe it is completely unique. The universe is very
large. In a very large universe, even very rare events will happen
many times.
(although the odds that such ET-ALFs have come into direct
contact with earthlings is exceedingly small).
Over a sufficiently short time frame (in cosmoligical terms, tens
of thousands of years is pretty short), sure.
|5.13.08 @ 3:53PM|#
I remember reading those books as a kid and thinking "wow,
this guy just PROVED they are out there and have been
here!"
That is understandable. Now if you're an adult and still swallow
that Chariots crap, you have a problem or six.
|5.13.08 @ 3:54PM|#
I believe that there are aliens, because I refuse to believe
that in all the vastness of the universe, humans are as good as it
gets.
Although I'm open to the possibility of other intelligent life in
the universe, I do believe they would have to be equally as slimy
as the human race or worse. The reason being that in order for
intelligence to evolve, natural resources need to be scarce enough
on the home planet that intelligence is an asset worth evolving
(i.e. it carries enough advantage to be naturally and/or sexually
selected).
The scarcity of natural resources is what causes human sliminess
(i.e. politics).
Tacos mmm...|5.13.08 @ 3:54PM|#
Jesus clearly hasn't come back yet because he's busy being crucified on other planets. Using a conservative estimate from The Drake equation of two civilizations per galaxy, three years of Jesus time per civilization and 125 billion galaxies, he'll be back in 750 billion years.
Zeno|5.13.08 @ 3:58PM|#
life on other planets would be a blow to hardcore creationists since the Bible seems to make it clear that no other planets were mentioned. Obviously there are ways to reconcile this: God could have placed simple forms all around the universe. Or there could be denial that the life is actually extraterrestrial - it could be blamed on contamination from whatever probes detected it.
|5.13.08 @ 4:03PM|#
While Trujilo claimed condom failure rates of 15-20%, the
WHO claimed it was more like 90%. Is it worth it to quibble over
5-10%?
Dead or not, he wasn't talking exclusively about failure rates. He
was talking about the AIDS virus passing through a latex
condom, which simply doesn't happen. Failure rates are almost
exclusively due to human error, not due to the physical properties
of a condom.
TallDave|5.13.08 @ 4:04PM|#
What about aliens grown from stem cells?
My kittens are hoping any aliens we find are small and
delicious.
BakedPenguin|5.13.08 @ 4:04PM|#
In a very large universe, even very rare events will happen many times.
And if evolution is a universal phenomenon, it will help act as a
catalyst for intelligence wherever life appears.
|5.13.08 @ 4:05PM|#
There was a Wired magazine article which they discussed that the
Catholic Church theologians in the 17th presumed life on other
planets and wondered if Jesus was their messiah or if they would
have their own messiah. The Catholic Church also has physicists
priests and the like.
As for Jesuits, I was taught by one who wasn't convinced there was
a god (and he intimated he wasn't the only Jesuit to believe that).
It got me to thinking.
TallDave|5.13.08 @ 4:06PM|#
I believe that there are aliens, because I refuse to believe
that in all the vastness of the universe, humans are as good as it
gets.
But are they in our light cone?
My guess is, probably not. The weak anthropic principle says it
doesn't matter how big the fluke that produced us was. So
intelligent life could be almost infinitely improbable.
ktc2|5.13.08 @ 4:07PM|#
I guess they're going to start letting the Gelgameks appear in public now and not just at secret Vatican meetings about pedophile priests.
|5.13.08 @ 4:08PM|#
Over a sufficiently short time frame (in cosmoligical terms, tens of thousands of years is pretty short), sure.
'Course, this scenario's possible.
Alien: Greetings, Earthling, we come in peace.
T-Rex: RaaarrrggggHhhhh!
Alien: Argh! Motherf***ing T-Rex bit my arm off!
Guy Montag|5.13.08 @ 4:13PM|#
Shouldn't this be about extraterrestrials rather than about humans crossing borders, illegally or not?
EJM|5.13.08 @ 4:13PM|#
A Vatican astronomer said something very similar in a publication from a few years ago.
|5.13.08 @ 4:23PM|#
As for Jesuits, I was taught by one who wasn't convinced
there was a god (and he intimated he wasn't the only Jesuit to
believe that).
Jesuits have some interesting ideas about faith. In short, at least
some of them define faith as believing in something in spite of
your doubts.
They regard the utterly convinced, those who harbor no doubts, as
being somewhat (dangerously) deluded.
Guy Montag|5.13.08 @ 4:25PM|#
They regard the utterly convinced, those who harbor no
doubts, as being somewhat (dangerously) deluded.
Idunno if I am buying that one . . .
|5.13.08 @ 4:27PM|#
Abdul, Abdul, Abdul...
I believe you missed the greater point of my post.
Cardinal Trujilo cannot retract the statement about condoms.
He's dead.
I assume Trujillo's statement was an official statement on behalf
of the Vatican's Pontifical Council for the Family, not just a
personal musing. A full retraction by the PCF, or any other
authorized Vatican spokesman would suffice. In the spirit of
Realpolitik, they wouldn't even have to admit they was wrong -- the
goal here is harm reduction.
While Trujilo claimed condom failure rates of 15-20%, the WHO
claimed it was more like 90%.
I think you mean that WHO claimed an effectiveness rate of
90% (which is a 10% failure rate), not a failure rate of
90%.
Is it worth it to quibble over 5-10%?
Yes. That's a huge number of infections prevented and lives
saved.
The overall point is that the PCF was lying, in direct
contradiction to scientific evidence, and they knew it.
Episiarch|5.13.08 @ 4:29PM|#
If some aliens dropped by 100 million years ago, didn't find us because we weren't here, and then had themselves a Berserker War, that would explain why we haven't heard from them. And as a bonus, the Berserkers should be showing up any day now.
|5.13.08 @ 4:30PM|#
Heh, this thread simply can't be complete without mention of
The High Crusade, by Poul Anderson.
I don't see intelligent life on other planets as contradicting the
bible. There's no reason why ol' Yahweh would've seen it necessary
to mention other planets to Moses & Co. However, if even an
appreciable fraction of the alien worlds required the services of
Jesus, then there might be, uh, issues. :-)
Neu Mejican|5.13.08 @ 4:32PM|#
"the likeness of God,"
You assume this has something to do with physical form...not
required by any means.
Theologians typically refer to the likeness being some more
abstract aspect of God(e.g., freewill, morality) rather than
physical appearance.
A red-herring, in otherwords.
Neu Mejican|5.13.08 @ 4:35PM|#
if even an appreciable fraction of the alien worlds required
the services of Jesus, then there might be, uh, issues.
:-)
IF the belief is in a being omnipotent and existing outside of time
and space, then not really.
TallDave|5.13.08 @ 4:40PM|#
You know, if we did encounter aliens more advanced than us, the
most salient question would be whether the aliens practice
something like liberal democracy.
Because if not, they'd most likely subjugate or exterminate us.
|5.13.08 @ 4:42PM|#
Question:
Why does any rational person care about what a guy who believes in
utter nonsense thinks about life in the universe?
There is no god, and there are likely numerous other civilizations
in the universe.
And it's pudding time.
|5.13.08 @ 4:51PM|#
Jamie,
Why does any rational person care about what a guy who believes
in utter nonsense thinks about life in the universe?
Personally, I don't give a rat's ass what any Vatican official
thinks. However, the fact that a large number of people do
believe what they say makes it necessary to respond to them.
Although it's tempting to not engage their lies and thus hasten
their slide into irrelevance, that contradicts the principal of
harm reduction.
Plant Immigration Rights Suppo|5.13.08 @ 5:10PM|#
"Why does any rational person care about what a guy who believes
in utter nonsense thinks about life in the universe?
There is no god, and there are likely numerous other civilizations
in the universe."
Because, unfortunately, the Vatican is a very influential
institution. Any bit of rationality that comes out of the Vatican
might convince Terra's Catholics to be a bit more rational
themselves. I call this a good thing. It liken it to the PRC moving
a bit towards capitalism; far from perfect, but a positive move
nonetheless.
|5.13.08 @ 5:10PM|#
they'd most likely subjugate or exterminate us.
So you're James Woods' character in "Contact"?
The Wine Commonsewer|5.13.08 @ 5:33PM|#
Because if not, they'd most likely subjugate or exterminate
us.
Or, worse, grilled medium rare, on the plate next to the spuds.
Andy|5.13.08 @ 6:06PM|#
All this talk of God and aliens and not one mention of my
favorite cute cult, the Raelians?
They advocate capitalism as the best way to advance science (yay!),
liberal sex ed (yay!) and also an IQ qualifier for public office
(yay?)
Oh and something about building a landing strip for the spaceship
that is definitely coming back sometime soon.
TallDave|5.13.08 @ 6:17PM|#
they'd most likely subjugate or exterminate us.
It's how nearly all human societies behaved pre-Enlightenment. I
don't know any reason to think aliens would be better than us.
TallDave|5.13.08 @ 6:18PM|#
Or, worse, grilled medium rare, on the plate next to the
spuds.
Why not? Worked for the Aztecs.
|5.13.08 @ 6:20PM|#
Here is a list of things that will
send me to hell. Take effeminancy and drunkedness. Am I going
to hell because I wore an earring? Am I going to hell because I get
drunk a lot? Hell, am I going to hell because I got drunk while
wearing and earring?
My question is, do the aliens have to deal with all these stupid
bullshit rules?
Plant Immigration Rights Suppo|5.13.08 @ 6:25PM|#
"12.SEDITION - any offense against the state short of grave
insurrection or treason: tumultuous assembly of people in
opposition to lawful authority: the stirring up of such
opposition."
Troy, this is the one I am going to hell for.
Plant Immigration Rights Suppo|5.13.08 @ 6:26PM|#
"26. The Ultimate Sin of Damnation - Rejecting the Lord Jesus
Christ, the Son of the Living God"
And this one
|5.13.08 @ 6:36PM|#
I can't let this opportunity pass without pimping my favourite
'Jesuit & space aliens' short story - Clarke's 'The
Star.'
(Ah, the Society of Jesus. History would be so much less
interesting without you...)
|5.13.08 @ 7:14PM|#
"...after he became President asked his staff to find out
whether there are UFOs, and who shot JFK."
"...he got the exact same answer as everyone else: 'No' and 'Lee
Harvey Oswald'."
If Bubba had been smart, back in those days before too many people
knew how to photoshop things, he might have enlisted facial
recognition software to scan through the states' DMV photo records,
in search of a face (possibly disguised or altered) that
statistically matched Elvis'. After that exercise, he would have at
least been able to say with some confidence that, if still alive,
Elvis didn't have a driver license or DMV ID card, which would have
been more information than he probably got from the JFK and UFO
questions.
|5.13.08 @ 8:38PM|#
Re "in his likeness": this can't possibly be referring to the
physical form of humans, since in Christian theology God does not
have a physical form of his own (aside from Jesus, but that's
another story). It's more likely a reference to the ability of
humans, like God, to choose their actions, in contrast to the
wholly instinct-driven behavior of other animals.
So, if aliens exist, and they have free will, then they too would
be "in God's likeness".
Also, the text of Genesis
1:28 does not say man was given dominion over all God's
creatures:
And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.
The list of dominated entities would not include creatures not
inhabiting Earth.
|5.13.08 @ 8:46PM|#
if even an appreciable fraction of the alien worlds required
the services of Jesus, then there might be, uh, issues.
:-)
The Letter to the Hebrews says that Jesus' sacrifice was done "once
and for all". I believe the Catholic position would be that aliens
would be in the same boat as a Buddhist monk living in India in 400
BC -- they would be saved by Christ's once-and-for-all sacrifice,
but judged not by their faith in Jesus, but according to a
different standard, since they obviously never had the opportunity
to hear the Gospel.
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