Reason Writers Around Town

June 29, 2007

At the New York Sun, Brian Doherty celebrates New York City's favorite libertarian residents.

Comments

D.A. Ridgely|6.29.07 @ 11:52AM|#

In its concentration of grand human achievement, in its cosmopolitanism and grace, combined with a winning self-assured pugnaciousness, New York is the living embodiment of the openness, dynamism, and sheer human will that energizes the free markets that libertarians celebrate - and that makes New York the richest, biggest, wildest metropolis in human history.

Biggest in what sense? Tokyo and Mexico City have larger populations. I ♥ New York, too; but most paeans to New York are really aimed at admiration for Manhattan, not the Five Boroughs, and sure as hell not including, say, Newark.

|6.29.07 @ 11:52AM|#

No wonder New York was the cradle of American libertarianism. Rothbard supposedly once told an interviewer (I'm quoting from memory): "We have anarchy in New York--and trust me, it works fine."

Question for the floor--what's the better example of liberty in action? New York or Rothbard's other haunt, Las Vegas?

D.A. Ridgely|6.29.07 @ 11:59AM|#

Question for the floor--what's the better example of liberty in action? New York or Rothbard's other haunt, Las Vegas?

If you think there is anything the slightest bit libertarian (let alone anarchistic) about Las Vegas, you haven't been there.

|6.29.07 @ 12:00PM|#

I've been to NYC. I absolutely don't understand the attraction. If your net worth can be counted in the tens of millions, I can see how you might want to spend a month or two out of the year in NYC. But if I had to interact with the New Yorkers on the street day by day, my every breath would be dedicated to finding a way to get the fuck out.

Sure the city has its advantages, but the costs are orders of magnitude above what I'd find attractive.

|6.29.07 @ 12:02PM|#

Warren - I don't understand it either, but 8 million plus do. To each their own, i guess.

dhex|6.29.07 @ 12:05PM|#

eh, you can live here for less. well, at least i can.

also ny summer weather sucks, but the women here are so beautiful that no amount of broken glass could express it.

vegas is a fucking nightmare made out of glass and concrete. it is the place where dreams go to die.

|6.29.07 @ 12:14PM|#

dhex,

Sorry, our women are much better. We even have most of your best women as they emigrate away from said city.

|6.29.07 @ 12:20PM|#

Agreed, PL. If only they didn't bring with them that cursed, annoying accent!

|6.29.07 @ 12:20PM|#

eh, you can live here for less. well, at least i can.

Huh??? I live in bufoo MO now, so it's too apples and oranges for comparison. But a few years ago I was paying $700 a month for a 1300sqft third floor walk-up with a view that extended for twenty miles.

What will $700/mo get you in NYC? A very small closet in a very high-crime neighborhood is my guess.

the women here are so beautiful that no amount of broken glass could express it.

If your content to look at them, I'd say you have a point. But I want to interact with women, and NYC women, like NYC men, have a harsh abrasive exterior. It's a personality callus. that the city wears onto people.

|6.29.07 @ 12:36PM|#

This blog entry does hit upon one of my favorite themes - why do so many libertarians (including most of the Reason staff) freely choose to live in the high-tax, nanny-state areas? Doesn't this amount to "voting with your feet" that this kind of governing situation results in the most desirable places to live?

I still have never gotten a good answer for this one. Anybody?

|6.29.07 @ 12:37PM|#

In the Bronx, my three bedroom/two bath 20th floor apartment has views of Van Cortland Park and the Palisades. Not too shabby for 950/mo.

Only suckers and the rich pay full price for anything in NYC.

And yes, the ladies are better looking than elsewhere. Even our homeless have more class!

Doug|6.29.07 @ 12:39PM|#

Women from New York, if you like, long faces, large noses and long black curly hair.

D.A. Ridgely|6.29.07 @ 12:39PM|#

Dan T., because the cultural, social and intellectual options of life in "bufoo MO" (is that a real place?) leave much to be desired.

Doug|6.29.07 @ 12:41PM|#

The absolute best New York has to offer... http://www1.istockphoto.com/file_thumbview_approve/2304141/2/istockphoto_2304141_woman_with_green_eyes_and_long_wavy_hair.jpg

Episiarch|6.29.07 @ 12:45PM|#

NYC can be great (I lived there for 7 years) but there are a great many things that grate on you after a while if you are a libertarian. First and foremost the repressive gun laws and the near-impossibility of legally carying concealed.

|6.29.07 @ 12:46PM|#

Dan T., because the cultural, social and intellectual options of life in "bufoo MO" (is that a real place?) leave much to be desired.

I agree, but shouldn't this lead us to conclude that "big government" (at least in the contemporary American sense) helps to develop and maintain such a rich cultural, economic, and social atmosphere?

|6.29.07 @ 12:52PM|#

shouldn't this lead us to conclude that "big government" (at least in the contemporary American sense) helps to develop and maintain such a rich cultural, economic, and social atmosphere?

That would explain why Soviet Russia and Red China were apogees of cultural, economic, and social life.

Cities are economic engines par excellence. The cultural and social life they support are luxuries that only a gigantic economic engine can support. Similarly, the leftist claptrap that infests their political life is also a luxury.

Saying that the political and economic burdens that leftist municipalities impose on their citizens are responsible for the economic and cultural life of the city in any way is kind of like saying that Donald Trump's wife is rich because she wears lots of diamonds. Ya got your causality arrow pointing in the wrong direction.

dhex|6.29.07 @ 12:52PM|#

my first apartment in 1998 was $400 a month to split a 2 bedroom, 1100 sq foot 2nd floor of a house in richmond hills, queens. nice immigrant neighborhood, very quiet, about 10 blocks from forest park.

now of course i spend more than that but i live in downtown brooklyn and pay 25% under market rate. it can be done.

also, new york in the summer is unbelievable. words fail to do it justice.

D.A. Ridgely|6.29.07 @ 12:54PM|#

I agree, but shouldn't this lead us to conclude that "big government" (at least in the contemporary American sense) helps to develop and maintain such a rich cultural, economic, and social atmosphere?

Not at all. It should lead us to consider whether and to what extent government is a necessary ingredient in urban life, and most libertarians would agree that some such government is absolutely necessary. Big cities produce a huge amount of garbage which in turn attracts rats, too, but no one argues that means the rats are a good thing.

Brian|6.29.07 @ 1:01PM|#

City May Seek Permit and Insurance for Many Kinds of Public Photography

|6.29.07 @ 1:01PM|#

Dan T.,

To answer your on-going query, it's because lots of people of all kinds live in those cities. It's not like there's some libertarian enclave that we could all go to. And, of course, snarky remarks about culture only being in a couple of cities in the U.S. (what a ridiculous statement that is) aside, the fact is that libertarians have to go where the jobs are, too.

Also, a number of us don't live in NYC or LA. Even of the staff, I think some live in the Midwest.

|6.29.07 @ 1:10PM|#

I used to hate New York, until I spent some time living in L.A. After that, the charms of NY became self-evident.

So how does L.A. rate on the libertarian scale?

|6.29.07 @ 1:12PM|#

Dan T.-

People are leaving the the states with big governments for states with smaller ones. In the east, they are going from the Northeast to the Atlantic South. In the west, they are going from California to Arizona and Nevada.

David Rollins|6.29.07 @ 1:21PM|#

Dan T:

Just because we choose to live in the nanny state doesn't mean we choose to pay the taxes. My one-man Nevada corporation just happened to require my consulting services in Manhattan for a large bank, which paid me corp-to-corp (i.e., no withholding). Of course the corporation paid the rent, utilities, etc.

I think there's a saying that the higher taxes are, the fewer people pay them. Go brush up on your "How I Found Freedom in an Unfree World".

dhex|6.29.07 @ 1:25PM|#

it goes without saying that nyc government is totally fucked.

well, actually it can be said again. it's not like rudy invented shitty, he just made it moreso.

|6.29.07 @ 1:25PM|#

I still have never gotten a good answer for this one. Anybody?

Completly dealt with nyah

Rhywun|6.29.07 @ 1:52PM|#

most paeans to New York are really aimed at admiration for Manhattan, not the Five Boroughs, and sure as hell not including, say, Newark.

People are leaving the the states with big governments for states with smaller ones. In the east, they are going from the Northeast to the Atlantic South.

This is of course a by-product of people leaving the states with high populations for those with fewer people.

|6.29.07 @ 1:54PM|#

I lived in Vegas for 5 years. I would rank it very libertarian in many ways. Prostitution is practically legal, no last call, you can drink on the street, and cops look the other ways on most of the shit that is illegal - as long as your not being belligerent and violent.
No state income tax. No corporate tax.
they have tried to legalize marijuana twice, last time it came very close.
The Mayor is an ex mob lawyer. He has his faults but you gotta love him for being such a maverick. the guy is often seen at strip clubs and parties. I've even seen him drinking a martini at a press conference.

Rhywun|6.29.07 @ 2:02PM|#

[sorry, my previous post got cut off]

most paeans to New York are really aimed at admiration for Manhattan, not the Five Boroughs, and sure as hell not including, say, Newark.

Living in Manhattan for 2 years taught me how little it currently resembles the Manhattan in our heads. The outer boroughs are more "authentically" New York now.

People are leaving the the states with big governments for states with smaller ones. In the east, they are going from the Northeast to the Atlantic South.

This is of course a by-product of people leaving the states with high populations for those with fewer people. I think it's more or less universal that high concentrations of people result in more nanny-ish government.

also, new york in the summer is unbelievable. words fail to do it justice.

Disgusting, smelly, sweaty--I'm sure I can think of others :)
I'm sure you had all the tempting flesh in mind, but it's hard to ogle it when you have to be barricaded in air-conditioned comfort for four months.

What will $700/mo get you in NYC? A very small closet in a very high-crime neighborhood is my guess.

Well, $1000 will get you a smallish two-bedroom in a safe neighborhood in Queens, minutes from Midtown. I had one such place for 7 years. $700 will get you something decent if you don't have your heart set on Manhattan.

Moving to NYC was the smartest economic decision I ever made. Rents are outrageous, of course, but the prices of nearly everything else are the same or only slightly higher than everywhere else.

GILMORE|6.29.07 @ 3:05PM|#

Warren | June 29, 2007, 12:00pm | #
I've been to NYC. I absolutely don't understand the attraction.

Thank you for visiting. Have a nice day. Please dont come back.

This is (near) my corner. the last guy who complained about NYC.

http://i68.photobucket.com/albums/i40/uncleheavy23/DSC01474-crop.jpg

bedford avenue in summer is a river of hotties. There is no comparison. come see if you dont believe me. San fran can kiss my ass. california can kiss my ass for that matter. sweden can hang, but they dont have the range of flavor. in your face, planet!

|6.29.07 @ 3:10PM|#

For a guy from Montana, I was absolutely blown away by NYC. The smell and traffic alone were enough to make me toss out my meth pipe and say, "Won't be needing this." Jebus, what a city. Can't say that I'd want to live there, but if you don't walk away with some appreciation for the sheer magnitude of the human machine in action, then I guess you're either missing what NYC is, or you've let it become background noise. I fucking loved it.

|6.29.07 @ 3:15PM|#

GILMORE,

Ah yes, I see now it was my attitude that created all the hostility. Sorry. I'll stay away, and everyone will be happy.

Good photo link. Thanks for making my point.

Does even one hottie on Bedford Ave have the time of day for a middle aged, middle class, engineer?

dhex|6.29.07 @ 3:19PM|#

"Does even one hottie on Bedford Ave have the time of day for a middle aged, middle class, engineer?"

if you make enough money, yes.

|6.29.07 @ 3:22PM|#

dhex,
Being middle class would rule that out, no?

GILMORE|6.29.07 @ 3:38PM|#

Does even one hottie on Bedford Ave have the time of day for a middle aged, middle class, engineer?

Yes, but it's probably a 'he'.

Peace, mein freund. You dont speak 'ballbusting', which is the most frequently spoken language in this town, followed by spanish, hebrew, chinese, polish, portuguese, italian, arabic, hindi, swahili, guido-english, ebonics, and english.

|6.29.07 @ 3:51PM|#

Willing to concede that the Apple Place can at times almost reach parity with Chicago. Almost.

|6.29.07 @ 3:52PM|#

You dont speak 'ballbusting'

That brings up something else. I've also spent some time in the deep south (Mobile AL). And I'll say this, I'd much rather have someone say something like "Hey assmunch, who told you you could stand there" when what they mean is "Good morning", than have someone say "May I help you?" when what they mean is "Go fuck yourself".

GILMORE|6.29.07 @ 4:43PM|#

Warren | June 29, 2007, 3:52pm | #
..."You dont speak 'ballbusting'"

That brings up something else...

Oh, poo poo warren. Quit with the generalizations. The #1 comment visitors say about NYC is "no one is nearly as rude as i expected!"... people's ideas about what this city is comes mostly from TV. Unless you've lived here, you dont know.

And i've lived in the south too (TN). We each have our issues to some degree.

GILMORE|6.29.07 @ 4:49PM|#

...that said - amusing recent brooklyn anecdote =

I'm at a house party in park slope, and call a car service to pick me up. I give him the address, and he goes, 'ok we'll send somebody'. I ask "how will i know he's here?" And he goes, "[Pause] How will you know? Cause I'm gonna send a fucking missle from Iraq up your ass is how you'll know. He'll call you, einstein. I have your # here. Goodbye."

No one has ever said they'd send a missle from iraq up my ass before. That was new. Only in Brooklyn. Part of the point is that no one takes anything too seriously. Ergo, ballbusting. If you get 'offended', it's mostly your problem, if you see what i mean. It's like... fuhgettaboutit. etc.

Rhywun|6.29.07 @ 5:13PM|#

than have someone say "May I help you?" when what they mean is "Go fuck yourself"

Actually, one of the things I like about NYC is that when someone means "Go fuck yourself" that's probably exactly what they'll say.

The Spook of Wisdom|6.29.07 @ 5:14PM|#

NYC? The South? Fuck both of em ... I'll take my firmly grounded, sensible, freedom loving Midwestern Ohio over either of these two ANY day of the week. I am in the Navy, and have spent considerable time in both of the aforementioned locales ... each has their own unique signature, and can be appreciated to a degree. I would rather hari-kari than live in either.

GILMORE|6.29.07 @ 5:41PM|#

I'll take my firmly grounded, sensible, super fucking boring, freedom loving Midwestern Ohio over...

Fixed that :)

|6.29.07 @ 7:08PM|#

I have lived in NYC for two years and I see none of what I constantly referred to as "greatest city in the world." I see nothing more than an open-air shopping mall filled with silly NYU, Columbia, Harvard and Yale grads who think a decent education involves being able to quote Noam Chomsky. You can't even get mustard on your hamburger at any of the big chains nor can you find toothpaste at Bed Bath & Beyond! (near Lincoln Center anyway) It's ridiculous and the very idea that nearly everyone of "importance" in this country thinks this is or should be the goal makes me sick to my stomach.

I'm from the Midwest and while people there are ignorant, they are at least aware there is a world outside what they know. I do not see that here in NYC nor have I seen that anywhere on the Eastern seaboard. I think its the education system that keeps telling generations to completely ignore large segments of their own country. New Yorkers have no idea what it means to be Americans, though as a smoker I've been pleasantly surprised by how much I enjoy not having any smoke around.

NYC has its moments of amazement, those brief and fleeting seconds where you cannot deny the City's potential but then you get a whiff of piss or step on that nasty black stain in front of every restaurant, even the "five-star" ones, where they've put the garbage every day for decades and you realize that NYC is nothing more than a dream gone awry.

But it could have been a great dream and maybe that's why it breeds so many libertarians. I have never spent so much time thinking about my freedom as when I've had it dictated to me some clueless stupidly arrogant New Yorker.

How American can you be if you've never driven a car!? Or even want to.

New York is exactly what I'm afraid the US will turn into... because they've had a couple hundred years longer to fuck it up.

GILMORE|6.29.07 @ 7:51PM|#

NYC is nothing more than a dream gone awry.

You're still a tourist.

2 years is bullshit. I didnt understand this place for 15-20 years. I still cant find my way around brooklyn, and i grew up here.

The problem for most if not all is that NYC is incomprehensible, in the literal sense that there is too much going on here to possibly digest other than a fraction in most lifetimes. If you're from the midwest and you come with preconceptions about what an ideal urban landscape is supposed to be, then you are doomed to see something that falls short. But if you come from here, you realize its one of the only places in the world you can talk to your palestinian bodega owner like a buddy and talk about world affairs, and also get the opinion of the hasidic guy shopping there... and that night bump into a russian ballerina on the skids and meet a midget oscar-nominated actor (peter benchley) hanging out with her... and then have your car service tell you that they're sending a missle from iraq up your ass. :) It's not about the garbage or the shitty politics. Or mustard on your fucking burger (??). it's about people.

I also tell people that NYC is not america. I had to explain this to all my visiting british coworkers. We who live here know that. We dont care particularly. The place is in some ways more american than america, because it's still an experimental, mixed colony that is struggling to find a balance. Its an interzone, and we dont need the people who cant deal with it. There are more than enough who can, and they are mostly good neighbors.

NY isnt about the civics (corrupt and ineffective) or the infrastructure...its about the mix of people. if you dislike the actual dynamics of pluralism, you cant deal with the place. But if you can, it's a one of a kind thing that is an endless source of profitable human interaction. You cant live here in a shell and be happy. It drives most people nuts. If you are someone who thrives on the differences of other people, and the energy of individual ambition, then it's a feast.

anyway, fuck this. I dont need to defend the character of my home. it stands on its own. You all can have your opinions, but they dont matter unless you've put in your bones here. Critism from a distance, or casual observation of minor annoyances is meaningless. The blogger at Clublife often shits hard on this town, and i concur with him most of the time. But thats because we're both irish kids from the boroughs who hate guidos. :) He is allowed to shit on the city. Others at least need to state why their opinion should matter before any resident here should let their BS go unstomped on.

end rant

|6.29.07 @ 9:19PM|#

"if you dislike the actual dynamics of pluralism, you cant deal with the place."

I find it funny when New Yorkers get offended by people who disagree with their view then immediately disparage the person who disagrees. Typical New Yorker.

So pluralism is merely about having many different kinds of people in one place? Funny, I thought it was about differing groups of people finding common ground with the most agreed-upon answers becoming the consensus. I believe that is why we have checks and balances in our three-tiered government, the direct result of the dynamics of pluralism in the Founding Fathers, but what do I know? If you want to talk about the actual dynamics of pluralism in action, the Midwestern portion of the US is the pluralistic since most of the laws are written to benefit the coasts at the expense of the "flyover" states.

I came to New York and have stayed this long because I like to hear 15 languages on a 20 minute walk, to BS with the Armenian brothers who run the bodega down the street and to strike up random conversations about random topics with random people in random places. That, you can find here in NYC, and only here, with little issue. But after 30 seconds to a minute, you know what all those New Yorkers want to talk about? How great New York is and how happy one must be to get out of the "flyover" states or when you leave out where you're from the assumption that NYC is better than wherever you came from. Some of us just came here to see what the place is like. Yet 90% of these same people, when asked what other parts of the country they've seen will answer with Cali, Florida, Colorado or Texas. Few if any, have even ventured into the central time zone or even down South. Those that have, however, understand the true potential of New York. A place where one has an opportunity to be him or herself without fear of reprisal... that place is not what this City is, has been or ever will be due to the arrogance of the 15-20 "lifers" who walk around this place like they own it. Profitable human interaction becomes much more rare an occurrence when everyone acts like they are the only person who matters. You get glimpses of greatness but it all becomes the same bullshit far too quickly.

Yet, there is no other place in the world where you can work with people from India, Pakistan, the Dominican Republic and even the Midwest and have vibrant conversation, the "endless source of profitable human interaction," that could make this place what New Yorkers assume it already is. Yet for whatever reason those conversations, while starting out pleasant and provocative, all in the same: you are meaningless unless you agree with me completely. It has boiled down to that with every single New Yorker I've met who has been here more than 7 years. Every single one.

If that is pluralism, Gilmore, you can shove it up your ass. How's that for a tourist? Actually, that's answer you should understand quite well since it's quoting most of the New Yorkers I've met while being a "tourist."

Two years is more than enough time to learn that New York is for the people who were born here and don't know any better, the extremely wealthy and immigrants who love whatever taste of freedom they can get.

Diversity is a word that has no meaning in this City, Gordon. You call yourself a New Yorker and talk all high and mighty but you know as well as I do that without familial ties , a large bank account or a rent-controlled apartment, enjoyment of New York is tied to the money you spend. You can't have that "profitable human interaction" without forking over money first. That must be the profit you are talking about.

Time for an $8 beer.

|6.30.07 @ 12:54AM|#

I lived in Manhattan for 8 years. It's nothing but a sad museum of it's former self. It's nothing but a breeding ground for metrosexual trust-funders. Some women are beautiful, but the majority are just super, super vain so that a gallon of makeup makes them look hot from a block away if you only stare at their fake titties. New York is desperately trying to become LA. It's too bad, it used to be a cool place. There used to be a real drive there. Everything on Broadway is a sad retread (1 out of 10 shows is actually new, everything else is a movie adaptation, revival or musical bio). Famous music venues are gone (CBGB, Wetland) after they embarassed themselves. The clubs are still filled with drugs, congrats on that. The Lower East Side has three places left, and everything else is a sorry brunch joint for former frat boys from the Upper East Side. People go to New York nowadays to try and extend their pathetic adolescence. Diversity and pluralism? Is that how you pat yourself on the back because you're the first person to work as an equal with a foreigner? Nice. Congrats to you. I'm sure you can defend it, and to each his own. But I think my opinion is now known.

|6.30.07 @ 6:29AM|#

Having never been to NYC, I can say that it's a bunch of bullshit to say that even the great city of NY (which I do, indeed, think would be a great place to visit and one in which I'd have tons of fun) is somehow so much better than a city than one like Madrid, LA, San Francisco, Paris, or hell, even my city of Phoenix? Culturally, Phoenix sucks in many ways, but there are plenty of hotties here, too, if that's one of the criteria (of course it is). :) Also, there is plenty of talent here, you just have to know how and where to look.

Anyway, I just hate to hear over-generalised statements as much as anyone, I suppose. It's a form of elitism that just rubs me the wrong way.

|6.30.07 @ 6:36AM|#

Oops, fucked that post all up.

Anyway, I was only going to say in the beginning, was that having not been to NYC before, I can't comment on it's hotties or how libertarian it is.

GILMORE|6.30.07 @ 10:07AM|#

Typical New Yorker.

probably my epitaph

generalize

GILMORE|6.30.07 @ 10:50AM|#

duffs, north 3rd and wythe, $2 beers

|6.30.07 @ 11:01AM|#

This article struck me as content-free - just color commentary.

I really enjoy reading Reason. But I respectfully request fewer articles like this.

Rhywun|6.30.07 @ 11:35AM|#

I lived in Manhattan for 8 years. It's nothing but a sad museum of it's former self.

Sad but true. That's why I moved to Brooklyn. When they were showing my apartment in Chelsea a couple months ago, it was just one trust-fund kid after another, many of them emitting squeals of enjoyment that the rent on a tiny studio was "only" $1,800. My new, unfashionable Brooklyn neighborhood is still very much "NYC" but at a fraction of the cost and without all the most annoying traits of Manhattanites.

How American can you be if you've never driven a car!? Or even want to.

A car-free life is so much less stressful, I wouldn't have it any other way. And walking around, enjoying the city, watching people, is a far better way to live than cooped up in a car. If you miss driving, go back to Ohio. All the things you enjoy about NYC are only possible because it wasn't built for cars.

Ron|6.30.07 @ 4:14PM|#

A city that has a better connection with libertarianism is Chicago. Milton Friedman, F.A. Hayek, Gary Becker, and Judge Richard Posner have been associated with the Univeristy of Chicago, at some time. And, the three leading lights of libertarianism mentioned in the article, have lower influence outside libertarian circles due to their "a priori" methodology, than the Chicago libertarians.

|6.30.07 @ 10:55PM|#

1. I live in New York City. Now, it's not the Randian symbol of achievement, but in fact the emblem of the costs of collectivism: taxes are high, rent-control makes housing costs insane, prices for everything have become inflated, people are sardined into public transportation every day, and many of the public schools are terrible.

2. So of the "five central figures in American libertarianism", who are the other two?

Brooklyn Represent|7.1.07 @ 11:26PM|#

Keep writing articles like this and the Manhattan Institute will probably keep inviting you back.

Dennis|7.2.07 @ 12:24AM|#

Dhex: eh, you can live here for less. well, at least i can.

Warren: Huh??? I live in bufoo MO now, so it's too apples and oranges for comparison. But a few years ago I was paying $700 a month for a 1300sqft third floor walk-up with a view that extended for twenty miles.

Pretty sure dhex was responding to your comment that you'd need a net worth in the tens of millions to want to live in New York. Indeed, mine's just a wee bit less than that and I'm doing just fine. No, it ain't cheap, but there are plenty of us here, living in Manhattan and NOT driving Bentleys, but not living in closets either.

If your content to look at them, I'd say you have a point. But I want to interact with women, and NYC women, like NYC men, have a harsh abrasive exterior. It's a personality callus. that the city wears onto people.

Well, that's just incorrect. Somebody's been watching too much TV...

|7.2.07 @ 10:48AM|#

Dennis: Some people, like you, will always have a crush on the city and be willing to overlook its many flaws. More power to you.

For those who don't know anything about New York: (1) it is not possible, save for fluke, to live alone in Manhattan or many areas of Brooklyn/Queens for less than $1400, and you are more likely to be in the $1600 to 1800 range. When you look at city and state taxes in addition to federal taxes, you have to make around $60,000 just to break even. Many get around this by living with roommates. This is fine for kids, but in NYC, it is acceptible to live with roommates, i.e., like kids, well into your 30s. (2) living in Brooklyn is a solution for many. However, rents have risen so drastically in the last 4 years that Brooklyn and Queens will soon cost as much, if not more, than Manhattan. Williamsburg, Park Slope, Greenpointe and many areas of Clinton Hill and Long Island City are already at Manhattan-level prices. Heck, even Red Hook has luxury apartments now. This is not something that the free market will "fix" because there is such an influx of wealth. Sure, much of the wealth is unearned (trusts, settlements, lotteries, etc.), but it is also the center for i-bankers and big time lawyers who also bring in wealth. The question is really about how far gentrification will spread, and the trend doesn't seem to be dying.

It should be noted that New York is no longer the creative capital of the country. Artists long ago ceased to be able to afford living there, and the internet has reduced the need for the coffee house communities that used to thrive in Soho and the Village.

Both Warren and Dennis are correct. New York can be abrasive and cold. You have to really want to live there. On the upside, the girls hit on the guys and will sleep with anything in the sapiens species. I guess they have to justify all that makeup.

Dennis|7.2.07 @ 1:15PM|#

This is great...

Warren complains that New York women are too difficult to interact with - (If your content to look at them, I'd say you have a point. But I want to interact with women, and NYC women, like NYC men, have a harsh abrasive exterior.)

Lamar complains that New York women are too easy to have sex with - (On the upside, the girls hit on the guys and will sleep with anything in the sapiens species.)

This could mean Lamar is much better-looking than Warren. Or has much better game. Or is a big liar. But, most likely, what it means is that New York is a really, really big city and if you talk to 10 different people, you'll get at least 10 different opinions on it.

Which is why, when I hear someone try to describe the "average" or "typical" New Yorker or explain who does and does not live here, I immediately know that person is full of shit.

I can't even describe the typical person who lives in my building, much less the city, and we've got people on this thread - who don't even live here - snorting about "typical New Yorkers," our "personality callouses," and the sexual habits of New York women. Hilarious.

|7.2.07 @ 9:02PM|#

I lived there for 8 years Dennis, so don't say I don't know what I'm talking about. My point was that you and Warren are both right in your opinions. It's a giant freakin' place with a million different things going on.

I have to wonder: Perhaps you are the one with difficulty understanding people. In what world is the "upside" of limitless amounts of sex a "complaint"? Perhaps in Utah, I guess.

I recognize that my complaints about NY are specific to me. I think ex-frat boys, trust-funders, do-nothings, most i-bankers, all lawyers and most husband hunters are shitty people. If that's your cup of tea, NYC is the place for you!! OK, that was a cheap shot, but you get my point. I would be more polite, but I lived in NYC for 8 years......

Dennis|7.2.07 @ 9:17PM|#

I stand corrected - you didn't complain about the women. You just called them all whores. Sorry for being such an asshole...

|7.2.07 @ 9:27PM|#

Typical New Yorker..... :)

Dennis|7.3.07 @ 12:58AM|#

Fair enough. :)

|7.3.07 @ 11:57AM|#

NYC is a great place to live if you're on the make, and if your job is in one of the industries that is concentrated in NYC (such as media or banking) then it may very well be worth it to live there.

But as a former lifelong NYer, I'm glad to have left. Cost way too much money for too little in return. And for Libertarians loving NYC? Undoubtedly it was because of all the inspiration from living in a system where everything is done bass-ackward. What better to focus the mind to raging about the tribulations of wealth-stealing collectivization than actually living it day-by-day without the threat of the gulag?

I'd much rather see Libertarians move down here to Delaware, the native population is much lower and an influx of, say, 100-200k right-thinkers would really change things.

|7.5.07 @ 5:26PM|#

Not only New York City but the surrounding suburbs were home to the founding fathers of libertarianism. Leonard Read came East from California to found the Foundation for Economic Education on the banks of the Hudson in Irvington. There was Henry Hazlitt journalist and economist in New York as well. It is not surprising. Despite what one may think of the day to day aspects of living in New York - it is no worse than other major cities of the world - there is a brain power there that is the innovator in domestic and international finance and trade as well as communications. Thus it is no surprise that in such an intellectual environment would germinate the seeds of libertarianism.