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The United States Is Full, Chapter MCXVII
The war on cucumbers continues:
Summer vegetables are ripening in fields across North Carolina, but farmers fear the bounty could go unharvested if a growing labor shortage continues.
The farms that supply Nash Produce were among many across the state that couldn't find enough workers last fall, and farmers say the problem could escalate this year. Enforcement raids have increased the cost to immigrants of sneaking over the border and discouraged many illegal immigrants from coming.
Some worry that North Carolina will end up like California, where portions of last fall's crops rotted in the fields and ripe fruit fell from the trees because workers didn't come to pick them.
This year, contractors are predicting that labor will be tight again, said Joyner, president of a cooperative of about a dozen growers, which includes Leggett. He said his farmers are so worried that they refused to plant all the cucumbers he could have sold this year.
"They asked me, `Well, if I plant them, can you promise me I'm going to get them picked?' " Joyner said. "And I can't."
"Americans today don't want to sweat and get their hands dirty," said Doug Torn, who owns a wholesale nursery in Guilford County. "We have a choice. Do we want to import our food or do we want to import our labor?"
To recap: Government criminalizes mutually beneficial exchange through protectionist labor policies; innocent cucumbers rot. (Some will never even have the chance to be born.) Tobacco, sweet potatos, and Christmas trees are also in jeopardy.
Read reason on criminal Christmas trees here.
|6.14.07 @ 3:01PM|#
This would probably be the wrong thread to type out a stirring Ron "Build the Wall" Paul endorsement, huh?
|6.14.07 @ 3:06PM|#
There absolutely IS an hourly rate that would supply the demand
for labor.
Unless the Law of Supply and Demand has been repealed.
PS. I'm willing to pay Twice as much for cucumbers (or actaully
whatever it takes).
|6.14.07 @ 3:09PM|#
Maybe we can turn the tide by pointing out that the lack of
Christmas Trees (or Christianized Pagan Trees, if you prefer) will
harm the children.
"Let these migrant workers in, for the children."
It works for them, right?
|6.14.07 @ 3:09PM|#
There was a similar article last week in the Detroit Free Press--farmers here are about to plow their asparagus crops under, because there's nobody to harvest them. And I like asparagus!
|6.14.07 @ 3:11PM|#
"There absolutely IS an hourly rate that would supply the demand
for labor."
But there still may not be a point where the farmer can grow them
and still make a profit. In that case, the rational thing to do is
wait it out, or (if it's looking like a long-term trend) choose
another line of business.
|6.14.07 @ 3:12PM|#
Now I am an open borders guy and all, but this story kind of
bothers me.
The farms that supply Nash Produce were among many across the
state that couldn't find enough workers last fall, and farmers say
the problem could escalate this year. Enforcement raids have
increased the cost to immigrants of sneaking over the border and
discouraged many illegal immigrants from coming.
If your business model is dependent upon illegal immigrants that
provide lower labor costs due to the fact that they are illegal and
would probably decrease the market price, then maybe your business
model is a bit screwy?
it seems to me that the solution to a lack of labor due to the
government enforcing the law would be to offer higher wages to get
more people into the "diminishing" pool of labor? And then recover
at least some of the costs by passing them on to to Nash produce
who then can either take a smaller profit margin or try to pass the
costs onto the consumer, no?
"Americans today don't want to sweat and get their hands
dirty," said Doug Torn,
What he means is they don't want to sweat and get their hands dirty
at the current cut-rate salary level, no?
|6.14.07 @ 3:14PM|#
Well, according to
this Townhall.com article, the risks of imported food are too
much to bear so we must grow and harvest our own.
So clearly, food prices must increase if we are to a)restrict labor
and b)restrict food imports. I guess the question is, how much are
people willing to pay for domestically grown tomatoes, peaches,
cucumbers and the like? How much would you accept to pick said
fruits and veggies? $5/hr, $10, $20?
|6.14.07 @ 3:14PM|#
The best solution would be to end agriculture subsidies and agricultural tarrifs, so many of these crops could be grown in Latin America. That would also give people there jobs, slowing down the rate of immigration.
|6.14.07 @ 3:14PM|#
KenK is right.
If the farmers can afford higher wages to pick the crops, no harm
no foul. If they can't, we import the crops from Mexico. The
Mexican farm workers still get paid, but their kids don't get
$10,000 per year educations in U.S. public schools.
|6.14.07 @ 3:14PM|#
"...crops rotted in the fields and ripe fruit fell from the
trees because workers didn't come to pick them..."
Sounds like an opportunity to put convicts and welfare recipients
to work.
"He said his farmers are so worried that they refused to plant all
the cucumbers he could have sold this year."
Sell less at higher prices, then you can afford to hire legal
labor.
TEUTONIC DAN T.|6.14.07 @ 3:15PM|#
This would be probably the wrong thread to write to the agitating Ron "building of the winding out "Paul Aufschrift, huh?
Carter|6.14.07 @ 3:16PM|#
"Do we want to import our food or do we want to import our
labor"
Given the externalities of "cheap" illegal alien labor, the answer
is to import the food. Let free markets work, these farmers whining
about labor "shortages" are only in business because of direct and
indirect subsidies.
|6.14.07 @ 3:18PM|#
: Government criminalizes mutually beneficial exchange
through protectionist labor policies; innocent cucumbers
rot.
Like I said, Im for open borders, but I have a question to people
who believe the above sentiment. If the borders did in fact open,
and the labor market pool got a lot more legal/legitimate
immigrants, do you believe that the labor rates will stay the same,
go down or go up due to this change in labor pool?
My instinct is that based on many of these laborers being
legitimate and not illegal the rate for their labor would go
up.
Of course, on the other hand if the pool adds a shit load to the
labor pool that could drive make wages even lower?
|6.14.07 @ 3:19PM|#
Border security and immigration policy are two different issues.
As a matter of fact, a looser immigration policy would improve
border security, by encouraging good-doers (you know, the opposite
of evil-doers) to come in through the front door.
Chicago Tom's comment raises an interesting question - what would
the wage difference be between a seasonal migrant ag laborer with a
work visa vs. one who snuck in?
|6.14.07 @ 3:23PM|#
"I'm willing to pay Twice as much for cucumbers (or actaully
whatever it takes)."
"Sell less at higher prices, then you can afford to hire legal
labor."
Well, glad to know that you are willing to do "whatever it takes"!
I suppose articles like this
are just blowing smoke eh? So, even with the cheap labor food
prices continue to rise, and you want to make sure they soar even
higher. Whatever it takes to make you happy I guess.
ed|6.14.07 @ 3:26PM|#
$3 gas I can handle. But if pickle prices start rising I'm gonna be royally pissed off.
|6.14.07 @ 3:27PM|#
Are you willing to pay twice as much for Food Stamps?
We need to liberalize immigration policy, to avoid unsustainable
growth in the welfare state.
|6.14.07 @ 3:30PM|#
Well, the one plus(??) of higher food prices is that the Federal "Poverty Level" will be more in line with what it was 60 years ago before the "green revolution" since it is based on food, rather than home, prices.
|6.14.07 @ 3:34PM|#
Kwix,
I knew this was coming. Government-mandated, inefficient-ass
Ethanol is beginning to threaten the food supply.
Can we stop fucking around and build some Nuclear Plants,
please?!?
|6.14.07 @ 3:43PM|#
Can we stop fucking around and build some Nuclear Plants,
please?!?
Sorry, this is one of the things that Big Oil, and Greenpeace, 100%
agree on.
NO FUCKING NUCLEAR PLANTS!!! NOT NOW! NOT EVER!!
fyodor|6.14.07 @ 3:44PM|#
Chicago Tom,
The problems with your analysis are that it's too narrowly focused
and static. The increased efficiency that comes with freedom and
free markets increases wealth across the board, which increases the
workers' bargaining power. Don't forget, once they're legal, they
might actually find other things they can do besides pick
cucumbers!!
|6.14.07 @ 3:46PM|#
"To recap: Government criminalizes mutually beneficial exchange
through protectionist labor policies; innocent cucumbers rot. (Some
will never even have the chance to be born.) Tobacco, sweet
potatos, and Christmas trees are also in jeopardy."
And innocent people will not be killed.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angel_Maturino_Resendiz
|6.14.07 @ 3:46PM|#
Sorry, this is one of the things that Big Oil, and
Greenpeace, 100% agree on.
NO FUCKING NUCLEAR PLANTS!!! NOT NOW! NOT EVER!!
All the more Reason to get to work on 'em.
|6.14.07 @ 3:51PM|#
@Ken So, if the government implements stricter immigration controls, "innocent people will not get killed?" Excellent, it's a deal. But we're holding you to that promise.
Duckman|6.14.07 @ 3:52PM|#
I know this is going offtopic, but without nuclear, we're not going to make ANY dent in greenhouse gas emissions. There are no alternatives to reducing greenhouse gas emissions that are not either too small to make an impact or require radical decreases in energy consumption that the average American will not accept.
|6.14.07 @ 3:52PM|#
Ken,
Does that mean that if I can find a case of a xenophobe who killed
somebody, we can get rid of them, too?
|6.14.07 @ 3:53PM|#
Ken,
According to the FBI, approx 168,000 murders occur every year
nationwide. So what are you saying, that since 15 of these were
committed by this particular illegal immigrant, we should more
strongly restrict immigration?
Anecdotal evidence is not exactly a strong premise...
PROOF
|6.14.07 @ 3:55PM|#
Duckman,
40% of the energy consumed in the United States is lost in waste
heat.
With just slightly better technologies, we could cut everyone's
energy consuption by a third and nobody would notice a
difference.
Once upon a time, it was assumed that wealth and the acreage of
land under tillage were eternally linked. Today, people make the
same erroneous assumption about wealth and energy consumption.
|6.14.07 @ 3:55PM|#
Then again, neither is poor grammar...
Preview! *smacks head with hammer*
Preview! *smacks head with hammer*
Preview! *smacks head with hammer*
|6.14.07 @ 4:04PM|#
Well, according to this Townhall.com article, the risks of
imported food are too much to bear so we must grow and harvest our
own.
Maybe we can go back to eating grass. It would put the appendix to
good use, with the side benefit of protecting the fuzzy puppies
from the nefarious commies.
MattXIV|6.14.07 @ 4:05PM|#
Chicago Tom's comment raises an interesting question - what would the wage difference be between a seasonal migrant ag laborer with a work visa vs. one who snuck in?
I think it could be higher or lower depending on how the tradeoffs
work, but probably higher.
Upward pressures:
-The farmer no longer has to worry about the immigrant being kicked
out by the authorities while the job is half done.
-Employers who didn't want to hire illegal immigrants (whether
based on principled or practical reasons) will now be hiring from
the same pool.
-The immigrants have a stronger negotiating position because the
employer can't treaten to make legal trouble for them based on
immigration status.
Downward pressures:
-The immigrant is no longer going to be adding a risk premium based
on potentially getting deported.
-It's harder for employeers to screw legal immigrants out of money,
so the risk premium from that will go away.
-If larger number would take advantage of the visas than are
currently entering illegaly, the labor market wouldn't be as
tight.
|6.14.07 @ 4:10PM|#
I can't speak for cucumbers or asparagus, but some food is sold
on an exchange such as the CBoT. Some farmers have nothing to do
with the price they receive for their goods. For those, they can
not charge more because their labor costs are greater. They have to
eat the extra labor costs, no pun intended.
If you feel your not paying enough for food, well you may get what
you wish. Not enough pickers can lead to less food traded on the
exchange, less supply, higher cost.
|6.14.07 @ 4:15PM|#
Taktix:
I saw it on tee-vee. It must have been true, because it was
accompanied by a shot of a power plant with a big steam plume
coming out of it.
Sorry, I don't recall exactly, but I remember it was a decently
reliable source.
|6.14.07 @ 4:22PM|#
There absolutely IS an hourly rate that would supply the
demand for labor.
True enough.
Unless the Law of Supply and Demand has been
repealed.
No it hasn't. But neither has the Theory of Comparative
Advantage.
By raising the wage to a level that gets a native to do the work,
you are pulling that native away from some higher productivity work
that he could be doing instead and missing out on the additional
producer surplus.
That is the principal advantage to the economy of low
skilled immigrant labor.
The key is not that immigrants do the jobs Americans won't do. It's
that immigrants do the jobs that Americans shouldn't do
because Americans can instead do a job with higher value to
themselves and to society.
|6.14.07 @ 4:23PM|#
"So, if the government implements stricter immigration controls,
"innocent people will not get killed?" "
There will still be some, but less.
Taktix
"According to the FBI, approx 168,000 murders occur every year
nationwide. So what are you saying, that since 15 of these were
committed by this particular illegal immigrant, we should more
strongly restrict immigration?
Anecdotal evidence is not exactly a strong premise..."
But this guy is not the ONLY illegal who had a propensity to murder
someone (even if illegals had the exact or lower propensity SOME of
them would have it, so MORE of them overall would mean MORE overall
folks like that).
And as to your anecdotal comment:
According to the FBI, approx 168,000 murders occur every year
nationwide. So what are you saying, that since 15 of these were
committed by this particular illegal immigrant, we should more
strongly restrict immigration?
http://www.city-journal.org/html/14_1_the_illegal_alien.html
|6.14.07 @ 4:24PM|#
You mean the anti-immigration groups don't have long lists of
Americans whose jobs were stolen by immigrants to give to the
farmers?
I wonder how many able, unemployed North Carolinians are sitting on
their rear ends collecting checks from the taxpayers? State UC
offices used to make you take any job you were qualified for or you
would lose your unemployment check.
Fluffy|6.14.07 @ 4:25PM|#
Mike -
Yeah, we can't afford to pull any of our inner city high school
dropouts off of their critical superconductor and NASA work in
order to pick cucumbers. There's too much comparative advantage to
lose.
|6.14.07 @ 4:31PM|#
Fluffy,
If those inner city high school dropouts aren't picking crops now,
I don't know what you're going to do to get them to pick crops in
the future.
|6.14.07 @ 4:31PM|#
I smell, like the migrant workers would say, Mierda De
Toro.
The very powerful farm lobby, which doesn't let us import sugar or
peanuts, could have one of the congressmen it owns increase the
number of visas for farm workers by the time I'm done typing
this.
But farmers don't want legal migrant workers.
They want workers they can rip off and not pay and who won't turn
them in to the state or federal department of labor.
|6.14.07 @ 4:33PM|#
40% of the energy consumed in the United States is lost in
waste heat.
With just slightly better technologies, we could cut everyone's
energy consuption by a third and nobody would notice a
difference.
Yeah, that "waste heat" is also known as entrophy, and I highly
doubt you are going to be able to cut it by a third. No system is
ever going to be 100% efficient.
You aren't mistaking "waste heat", and thinking that all we need to
do is install better insulation to keep "heat from escaping" do
you? That is not what they mean by "waste heat".
However, by simply adopting a French style nuclear program, the
U.S. could eliminate 30% (at least) of its CO2 emmissions, AND save
money in the process.
If you can't accept a large-scale nuclear program (such as they
have in France) as a nessicary part of CO2 reduction, then anything
else you have planned is a non-starter. If the greenies can't
compromise on nuclear power to reduce CO2 emmissions, then don't
expect me to compromise anything to reduce CO2 emmissions.
|6.14.07 @ 4:34PM|#
Once I invent the automatic, solar-powered, cucumber picking machine I'll solve everyone's problem. Maybe I'll go buy a house in Baja with my millions... What's that? I can't buy property in Mexico?! Bummer, forget it then.
Mike Laursen|6.14.07 @ 4:35PM|#
If your business model is dependent upon illegal immigrants
that provide lower labor costs due to the fact that they are
illegal and would probably decrease the market price, then maybe
your business model is a bit screwy?
I'm an open borders type guy, too, and I agree.
|6.14.07 @ 4:35PM|#
Yeah, we can't afford to pull any of our inner city high
school dropouts off of their critical superconductor and NASA work
in order to pick cucumbers. There's too much comparative advantage
to lose.
How many cucumber farms are located in the inner city again?
|6.14.07 @ 4:39PM|#
The very powerful farm lobby, which doesn't let us import
sugar or peanuts,...
The kind of farmers who grow cucumbers and other table crops do not
have a particularly powerful lobby. They also don't get much in the
way of subsidies.
|6.14.07 @ 4:44PM|#
oh, Isaac, say it ain't so! I don't want to live in a world where there isn't a powerful industry group known colloquially as "Big Cucumber."
|6.14.07 @ 4:45PM|#
They don't grow crops in the inner city.
Rex, I know what waste heat is. Your turn: do you know what
cogeneration is? And how it might possibly be relevent to this
discussion?
And while I think it's worth looking into nuclear power -
especially now that pebble-bed technology had made it so much safer
- no one who has actually looked at the issue, and doesn't have an
ideological ax to grind againt environmentalists - takes your
absolutist position that it, and only it, is the solution to global
warming.
|6.14.07 @ 4:47PM|#
There were an
estimated 15,517 murders in 2000,...
I think whoever said "168,000 murders occur every year
nationwide..." is off by a little bit.
You know, just saying.
Scooby|6.14.07 @ 4:51PM|#
"And innocent people will not be killed.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angel_Maturino_Resendiz"
Those fuckin' mexicans- stealing all the good serial killer jobs
from their rightful white owners.
|6.14.07 @ 4:57PM|#
Ken -
But this guy is not the ONLY illegal who had a propensity to
murder someone (even if illegals had the exact or lower propensity
SOME of them would have it, so MORE of them overall would mean MORE
overall folks like that).
The same thing can be said for all people, so you're arguing
against . . . the existence of people? Because some of them will
have the propensity to murder?
Is it just reproduction that should be illegal, or should we be
more proactive by getting rid of the already born?
|6.14.07 @ 5:01PM|#
Mierda De Toro
Just to pick nits .. wouldn't it be Mierda Del Toro ??
What's that? I can't buy property in Mexico?! Bummer, forget it
then.
I don't believe that's true either. Last I looked into it the laws
had been changed so that foreigners could in fact own land/homes in
Mexico. I was told that that Oprah owned a large estate near the
resort I was staying in during my last vacation to Mexico
Yeah, we can't afford to pull any of our inner city high school
dropouts off of their critical superconductor and NASA work in
order to pick cucumbers.
They don't grow crops in the inner city.
If memory serves me, the majority of welfare recipients are in
depressed rural areas. I believe rural areas do in fact grow
agricultural products, no?
|6.14.07 @ 5:22PM|#
Chicago Tom,
I was responding to a particular point someone made about "inner
city high school dropouts."
|6.14.07 @ 5:40PM|#
I was responding to a particular point someone made about
"inner city high school dropouts."
Joe,
My statement wasn't directed at you/your comment. It was merely to
provide context for my comment. Rex Rhino said the same thing you
did as well.
What I was getting at is that the a better response to MikeP's
"Theory of Comparative Advantage" comment is that instead of using
inner city HS dropouts as a rebuttal, a more apt counter-example
would be the large population of rural welfare recipients.
|6.14.07 @ 5:58PM|#
echo "If those inner city high school dropouts aren't picking crops now, I don't know what you're going to do to get them to pick crops in the future." | sed 's/inner city high school dropouts/rural welfare recipients/'
|6.14.07 @ 6:03PM|#
This
story seemed rather funny to me and is all about immigration
policy
echo "If those inner city high school dropouts aren't picking
crops now, I don't know what you're going to do to get them to pick
crops in the future." | sed 's/inner city high school
dropouts/rural welfare recipients/'
Wow a Unix Joke...Fucking HIlarious. Better than slash-dot.
One thing you can do with welfare recipients is withold payments if
the refuse to do jobs that are available to them. Picking fruit is
something just about anyone can do. Unless there is some kind of
specialized skill-set involved.
|6.14.07 @ 6:12PM|#
One thing you can do with welfare recipients is withold
payments if the refuse to do jobs that are available to
them.
Indeed. And you can do that whether or not you raise the
wage.
Somehow I doubt the marginal worker to show up at the farm as the
wage rises will be the welfare recipient. More likely it will be
someone from the local factory, taken away from a more valuable job
by an artificially high wage.
|6.14.07 @ 6:25PM|#
So it's official: "Reason" no longer believes in supply and
demand, economics, and all that kind of stuff.
Or rather, Reason is perfectly willing to embrace fallacious
arguments when they like the conclusions.
|6.14.07 @ 6:49PM|#
I do not speak for Reason, but if I may interject...
No one has denied believing in supply and demand. Instead what they
have noted is that artificially restricting the labor pool, and
then saying it's all okay because supply and demand will induce a
higher wage, is simply bad policy.
If the work can be done for a lower wage, and if someone can be
found to willingly do it for a lower wage, then it should
be done for the lower wage. And if someone with lower valued skills
can be found to do the work, freeing the person with the higher
valued skills to do higher valued work, then the lower skilled
worker should be doing the work.
Thinking that "supply and demand" is an argument against
immigration because wages will rise until workers are found is much
like thinking that "gravity" is an argument against immigration
because the apples will fall out of the tree eventually anyway.
Yes, it's true. But it completely misses the point of the benefit
of immigrant labor.
TLB|6.14.07 @ 6:50PM|#
I confess to not reading the preceding 62 comments; I'm sure in
that number someone has pointed out that Reason is - yet again -
supporting MassiveSubsidies to CorruptGrowers.
As for the linked article, it's BS for the reasons described
here:
http://www.vdare.com/sailer/061008_pearanoia.htm
|6.14.07 @ 7:16PM|#
"What I was getting at is that the a better response to MikeP's
"Theory of Comparative Advantage" comment is that instead of using
inner city HS dropouts as a rebuttal, a more apt counter-example
would be the large population of rural welfare recipients."
The Theory of Comparative Advantage gets some funny results when
government intervention kicks in -- if the thing a citizen is best
at is sucking at the teat of welfare programs, then that is the
"job" they'll gravitate to, leaving immigrants who are not so
proficient at sponging off the rest of us to pick the crops.
Get rid of all the welfare state B.S., so people who don't work
actually go hungry, and those native-born kids will put their
substandard public school education to work and do whatever jobs
for which they have a comparative advantage.
Fluffy|6.14.07 @ 7:22PM|#
Our inner cities are closer to the fields then Mexico and
Guatemala are. How do the illegal immigrants get to where the crops
are? Is there some kind of "bus ban" in the inner cities I haven't
heard about?
If the farmers really, really, really can't find any labor, pay $12
an hour and provide free bus transportation. Voila - labor
force.
|6.14.07 @ 7:22PM|#
The MassiveSubsidy to CorruptGrowers, wacko, is the presence of
vulnerable, illegal workers.
Reason doesn't want there to be vulnerable, illegal workers. So no,
they are not supporting MassiveSubsidies to CorruptGrowers. You
are, by hawking your certain-to-fail prohibitionism.
|6.14.07 @ 7:48PM|#
If the work can be done for a lower wage, and if someone can be found to willingly do it for a lower wage, then it should be done for the lower wage.
That's an argument in theory that ignores the
reality of immigration, labor, and the very fact that we
live in a nation with a central government. Instead of advocating
that the US drop any and all restrictions on immigration (and
perhaps work place safety and child labor laws too) as you argue,
we should make everyone play by the rules as they currently exist
and then work to change them.
There are countless ways that our (any) government distorts the
theoretically perfect market economy we all want. But as long as
countries and nations exists you have to work within that
framework, which will always including giving the government the
power to control its borders.
Fluffy|6.14.07 @ 7:56PM|#
"If the work can be done for a lower wage, and if someone can be
found to willingly do it for a lower wage, then it should be done
for the lower wage."
The reason a free market benefits even the least well off is
because as the amount of wealth in the system grows, and as more
and more workers move into high skill positions, the wages of the
least skilled rise. This is the best defense the free market has
against those who would claim that it doesn't benefit everyone -
the fact that over time, it does.
But that model just doesn't work if every time it looks like the
wages of the least skilled will rise, we import labor from outside
the system to bring those wages down again.
Only a closed system allows everyone to benefit.
You might counter that the "true" market for labor is the entire
world, but I don't think that's the case. Mismanagement of Third
World nations [and I count Mexico as part of the Third World] has
warped the market for labor by producing a huge pool of
impoverished workers. We're asking a handful of quasi-free markets
to carry the burden for a world's worth of unfree ones, and they
just doesn't work.
|6.14.07 @ 8:08PM|#
But that model just doesn't work if every time it looks like
the wages of the least skilled will rise, we import labor from
outside the system to bring those wages down again.
Please explain Connecticut, which has twice the standard of living
of Mississippi, and Mississippi, which has twice the standard of
living of Puerto Rico.
|6.14.07 @ 9:00PM|#
No one has denied believing in supply and demand. Instead
what they have noted is that artificially restricting the labor
pool, and then saying it's all okay because supply and demand will
induce a higher wage, is simply bad policy.
No, that is not the argument. The argument is that there is a labor
"shortage" and that "Americans today don't want to sweat and get
their hands dirty". That's the same economic fallacy promoted by
the Bush administration. They specifically avoid talking about
rising wages, since most people would consider that a good
thing.
There is a potential problem of labor *surplus* induced by the
minimum wage. But since there isn't any maximum wage, there can't
be a labor shortage - period.
And the remark about Americans not wanting to work is just plain
stupid. You don't have to have an economics degree to understand
that everyone takes the best job they can get. Mexicans aren't
masochists who seek out bad jobs.
TLB|6.14.07 @ 9:08PM|#
joe opines: Reason doesn't want there to be vulnerable,
illegal workers. So no, they are not supporting MassiveSubsidies to
CorruptGrowers. You are, by hawking your certain-to-fail
prohibitionism.
They might want some things, or they might not want some things.
All I knows is I can look at the bottom line: ReasonMagazine is
supporting MassiveSubsidies to CorruptGrowers*.
* In the universe that the rest of us inhabit that is.
|6.14.07 @ 9:11PM|#
"your certain-to-fail prohibitionism."
The idea that you can't ever really eliminate x so we might as well
stop trying has probably been used against some iniatives that I
imagine you support (like Matthew 26:11).
highnumber|6.14.07 @ 9:50PM|#
Matthew 26:11 "For ye have the poor always with you; but me ye
have not always."
WTF?
Gahan|6.14.07 @ 10:03PM|#
"But this guy is not the ONLY illegal who had a propensity to
murder someone (even if illegals had the exact or lower propensity
SOME of them would have it, so MORE of them overall would mean MORE
overall folks like that)."
It would also mean a larger pool of potential murder victims,
making you or me no more likely statistically to be murdered.
Mike Laursen|6.14.07 @ 10:18PM|#
TLB, again, can you please explain why you CapitalizeWords in a FunnyWay?
Mike Laursen|6.14.07 @ 11:02PM|#
Fluffy, your logic may be brilliant but there's something I'm
not following:
You talk about laborers either being in or out of the system. But
you started out talking about the system in general (not just the
labor aspect) and how everyone benefits as the amount of wealth
grows.
Does this system in general that you started out talking about have
the same boundaries as the first world where labor is relatively
free? Or is the system in general the entire world's economy?
Seems to me only the latter corresponds to how the modern economy
works. It just is global, no two ways about it. So, does
it have any meaning to talk about importing laborers into it?
To artificially draw a border around the labor market to protect
the laborers within, one would have to also draw a border around
the entire economy they are part of: no immigrant labor, no
outsourcing, no importing or exporting.
Gilbert Martin|6.14.07 @ 11:45PM|#
"Given the externalities of "cheap" illegal alien labor, the
answer is to import the food. Let free markets work, these farmers
whining about labor "shortages" are only in business because of
direct and indirect subsidies."
I agree with this.
Imported food doesn't show up at the emergency room wanting medical
treatment it can't pay for or demand that we provide bilingual
education for it's kids, etc.
Furthermore as I recall Thomas Sowell writing in one of his columns
a while back, global free trade in products is a fundamentally
different thing than free trade in people.
There is still such a thing as national sovereignty and foreign
nationals do not have any sort of fundamental "right" to be here if
the legal citizens of the country do not want them to be enact
immigration laws to restrict the flow of them.
Mexico is essentially exporting the effect of it's own corrupt and
incompetent government to the United States. By allowing this to
continue, we are enabling that corrupt government to continue in
power indefinetly and continue exportng it's problems to us
indefinitly. I don't see how letting Mexico continue playing us for
a chump is a viable policy.
Mike Laursen|6.15.07 @ 12:13AM|#
By allowing this to continue, we are enabling that corrupt
government to continue in power indefinetly and continue exportng
it's problems to us indefinitly.
OK, let's say Mexico were to become part of the United States,
adopting our government as its government. Would you have a problem
with Mexican workers then?
Gilbert Martin|6.15.07 @ 1:01AM|#
I'd have a problem with Mexico becomming a part of the United
States to begin with.
Why should we let them do it just because they wanted to?
If all Mexico become a new series of states within the United
States then "according to our laws" those much poorer states would
then start getting all sorts of federal government money for
education subsidies, upgrading the roads and infrastucture, etc.
etc. - on and on.
It would be another enormous transfer of wealth from those in the
existing states to the new Mexican states.
Doesn't sound good to me.
|6.15.07 @ 1:15AM|#
OK, let's say Mexico were to become part of the United
States, adopting our government as its government.
Do we just get Mexico, or do we have to keep the Mexicans
too?
If we enslaved the Mexicans and made them build their own damned
roads and schools, maybe that would solve Gilbert's concern (which
I concur with btw, it's one of my big reasons for not sending a
horde down there to take over right this very minute).
|6.15.07 @ 1:16AM|#
Duckman,
...There are no alternatives to reducing greenhouse gas
emissions that are not either too small to make an impact or
require radical decreases in energy consumption that the average
American will not accept.
You are right. But Al Gore can make them accept the cuts. joe,
OTOH,
40% of the energy consumed in the United States is lost in
waste heat.
knows nothing about the second law of thermodynamics. But then,
lack of knowledge hasn't seemed to slow Gore down much.
So why don't we solve the whole problem with illegal immigrants?
Screw this "build a fence" stuff. Let them sneak in, round their
asses up, and turn them into slaves. If nothing else we can force
them to walk on electricity generating tread mills until they
drop.
When word gets out that this is the kind of work you'll get for
sneaking into the US, maybe it won't seem like such a good idea
anymore.
And maybe then Al Gore will stop bleating, because our electricity
will be generated by "natural" and "renewable" resources.
|6.15.07 @ 1:18AM|#
do you know what cogeneration is? And how it might possibly
be relevent to this discussion?
Ohhh!!! I do, I do!
But first you have to define "waste heat". Then you have a lot of
work to do, showing that 40% of the "waste heat" in this country is
high enough quality to run a cogen cycle on.
US industry is not stupid. If the economics were there (i.e. if the
quality of the heat was there), the cogen plants would be there
too.
Those illegal immigrants, OTOH, don't yet have a clue about the
trap we're going to be setting for them. Here, little immigrants!
Right this way, I've got a nice treadmill waiting for you.
|6.15.07 @ 2:09AM|#
Warning: make sure your sarcasm meter is in calibration before reading my previous posts.
Mike Laursen|6.15.07 @ 3:29AM|#
It would be another enormous transfer of wealth from those
in the existing states to the new Mexican states.
Would the problem be that the Mexican states would be new to the
United States form of government? Would they come up to speed after
a while?
Or is there something else wrong with Mexico besides the corrupt
and incompetent government?
|6.15.07 @ 7:44AM|#
Or is there something else wrong with Mexico besides the
corrupt and incompetent government?
They aren't used to obeying a competent government.
Don't underestimate the power of long established habits. They'd
have to get knocked around a bit before they got used to a sudden
change like that.
Yet another reason I haven't sent a horde down there to just take
over. The cost-benefit analysis just doesn't recommend it.
|6.15.07 @ 8:21AM|#
So why don't we solve the whole problem with illegal
immigrants? Screw this "build a fence" stuff. Let them sneak in,
round their asses up, and turn them into slaves. If nothing else we
can force them to walk on electricity generating tread mills until
they drop.
Hey, we also could eat them! I've heard that they taste just like
chicken. That would give new meaning to the concept of "importing
our food".
Gilbert Martin|6.15.07 @ 8:45AM|#
"Would the problem be that the Mexican states would be new to
the United States form of government? Would they come up to speed
after a while?"
Who cares whether they "come up to speed after a while" or
not?
Why should existing United States citizens pay huge amounts of
money to get them up to speed?
That is just another form of bailing Mexico out from the results of
their own government's incompetence and corruption.
I read recently that there is some billionaire down there who
recently passed Warren Buffet as the second richest man in the
world. He didn't get that was because he's smarter than
Buffet.
Let the Mexicans pay for their own reformation.
Gilbert Martin|6.15.07 @ 8:46AM|#
I meant to say he didn't get that way because he's smarter than Buffet.
Gilbert Martin|6.15.07 @ 8:49AM|#
Of course this hypothetical is far fetched to begin with.
The Mexicans don't want to become part of the United States.
They want the United States to become part of Mexico.
|6.15.07 @ 10:01AM|#
"I meant to say he didn't get that way because he's smarter than
Buffet."
Uh-huh. No way some dumb fucking spic is going to make money
honestly.
|6.15.07 @ 10:03AM|#
At least in this immigration thread the antis are having no problem admiting they are just plain bigots.
|6.15.07 @ 11:35AM|#
I live in NC.
In 1990 I never saw a Mexican in day to day life.
Today, immigrants are 5% of the people here,
they say, but what I see is much greater.
Nash and Wayne counties, where the pickles are,
have 5% or less unemployment rates.
Pickers might make a $1000 a week,
but then they must move on.
Picking isn't a regular job.
Pickers can't buy a house and stay put.
The hand work field jobs are seasonal.
(see Minute Maid's history trying to change)
To have a work force that is willing to move,
move constantly from county to county,
state to state, following ripening crops,
is not an easy force to fill locally.
Paying more isn't a sure solution in our culture.
Is the US willing to bring in people every year,
year after year, more & more people to pick our crops?
I guess we could go back to renting out prisoners.
Scooby|6.15.07 @ 12:13PM|#
Now we have French immigrants coming here and stealing our NBA
Championship MVP jobs- everyone knows those are reserved for
inner-city blacks.
When will the madness end?
Mike Laursen|6.15.07 @ 12:31PM|#
Let the Mexicans pay for their own reformation.
Your opinion is, though, that if the Mexican people reformed their
government, they would be prosperous. Is that correct?
What do the Mexicans need to do to reform their government?
What's holding them back from making those reforms?
libertreee|6.15.07 @ 1:25PM|#
http://www.mises.org/story/2463
This link has an article that touches on many points raised in this
thread.
One thing that may not have been brought up in the original
cucumber farm article is the chilling effect the potential fines
for illegal workers may have on the farm industry. The farmers may
be reluctant to hire legal as well as illegal workers, and the
workers, legal or illegal, may not want to work due to fear of
being raided. Even if your are legal, who wants to be raided?
The VDARE Libertarians and populist Buchanonite paleoconservatives
and the comments on this thread that talk about immigration
subsidizing the corrupt Mexican government might want to talk about
how their policies are subsidizing the corrupt American police
state.
The Constitution says nothing about the feds being authorized to
control immigration with quotas or anything else. The only
authorization is for the feds to come up with a uniform system of
naturalization. The Early Republic was a Maritime Republic, that
teemed with temporary workers speaking many different languages. No
laws came from the feds establishing quotas until the Chinese
exclusion act of the 1880's. These quotas have arguably done a lot
more harm than good. The quotas on Jewish immigration, such as the
1924 Immigration Act, may have given us the state of Israel and the
whole mess that it entails. In the 1920's and 30's more Jews would
have come here than to Palestine. There might never have been
enough to create Israel with.
Freedom works. The problems that come with freedom are solvable
with freedom. Restrictions on freedom wind up biting you in the
ass, and the means to solve their problems are often politically
mandated away.
Gilbert Martin|6.15.07 @ 1:52PM|#
"Uh-huh. No way some dumb fucking spic is going to make money
honestly."
Some undoubtedly can but the one who is richer than Buffet got that
way through crony connections in the Mexican govt that keep other
businesses from competing with the businesses he owns - like the
Mexican phone company.
Scooby|6.15.07 @ 3:31PM|#
"The quotas on Jewish immigration, such as the 1924 Immigration
Act, may have given us the state of Israel and the whole mess that
it entails. In the 1920's and 30's more Jews would have come here
than to Palestine. There might never have been enough to create
Israel with."
I'm not sure that would be a selling point for the more rabid
nativists- especially the second-to-last sentence.
|6.16.07 @ 8:36AM|#
Check out this article on a Japanese solution to a labor
shortage. With mechanization, the labor shortage/ labor competition
angle is outdated. Practical considerations aside, there's still a
strong moral argument for legalizing immigration.
http://infotech.indiatimes.com/articleshow/2125692.cms
|6.16.07 @ 9:14PM|#
"VDARE Libertarians "
WTF? Contradictions abound!!!
By definition no one at VDARE is remotely Libertarian.
|6.16.07 @ 9:16PM|#
"Some undoubtedly can but the one who is richer than Buffet got
that way through crony connections in the Mexican govt that keep
other businesses from competing with the businesses he owns - like
the Mexican phone company."
of coarse, no gringo ever got rich using his crony connections.
Just the fucking dirty greasers.
|6.16.07 @ 10:06PM|#
"The quotas on Jewish immigration, such as the 1924
Immigration Act, may have given us the state of Israel and the
whole mess that it entails. In the 1920's and 30's more Jews would
have come here than to Palestine. There might never have been
enough to create Israel with."
I'm not sure that would be a selling point for the more rabid
nativists- especially the second-to-last sentence.
Damn straight. I support Israel because I don't want any more Hebes
living here.
Need some way to keep the dirty greaser spics in Mexico too.
And Gilbert Martin agrees with me because he's a bigot just like
me.
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