Reason Magazine
- reason.com
- reason.tv
- reason.org
- Donate
- Site Search:
Reason on Facebook
Reason on Twitter
Reason on YouTube
Reason RSSGet Reason E-mail Updates!
Manage your Reason e-mail list subscriptionsadvertisements
Pagans Proselytize in Public Schools Thanks to Jerry Falwell
Albemarle County Virginia public schools allowed pagans to distribute flyers in the backpacks of school children inviting them and their families an event this weekend where they can learn about and participate in pagan yuletide rituals. Some outraged Christian parents objected. But the delicious part of this story is that a threatened lawsuit by Jerry Falwell's Liberty Counsel legal aid group is the reason the pagans can issue such invitations through the public schools. According to Americans United for Separation of Church and State, this is how it all came about:
The dispute started last summer when Gabriel and Joshua Rakoski, twins who attend Hollymead Elementary School, sought permission to distribute fliers about their church’s Vacation Bible School to their peers via “backpack mail.” Many public schools use special folders placed in student backpacks to distribute notices about schools events and sometimes extra-curricular activities to parents.
School officials originally denied the request from the twins’ father, Ray Rakoski, citing a school policy barring “distribution of literature that is for partisan, sectarian, religious or political purposes.”
A Charlottesville weekly newspaper, The Hook, reports that Rakoski “sicced the Liberty Counsel on the county,” and the policy was soon revised to allow religious groups to use the backpack mail system. Liberty Counsel is a Religious Right legal group founded by Mathew Staver and now affiliated with Falwell.
So some enterprising local pagans thought if it's good enough
for the Christians, it's good enough for us. After all, religious
freedom is for everyone. Whole story here.
Kudos to Pamela Friedman for the tip.
Disclosure: I am a resident of Charlottesville and my last formal
religious affiliation was with the Thomas Jefferson Memorial
Unitarian Church (back in 1975). Also I am not a pagan--not that
there is anything wrong with that. Happy winter solstice holiday to
everyone!
|12.8.06 @ 1:32PM|#
Happy Festivus to you too, Ron.
IMHO, this "backpack mail" isn't a forum made available for free
speech, but an arm of the school used for school business. Ergo, no
God stuff.
|12.8.06 @ 1:33PM|#
Go, pagans, go! As a devotee of Odin, the All Father, I support
you wholeheartedly.
BTW, Christians, you should be careful what you wish for.
|12.8.06 @ 1:35PM|#
I hope they reenact the good old days when packs of early Christians were hunted down by their pagan tormentors and subjected to burnings, death by animal attacks, staked out and consumed by ants, and had they skulls cut open while they were still alive to see if there were spirits lodged in their heads causing such behavior. Then maybe "outraged parents" will learn the difference between persecution and flyers being handed out.
|12.8.06 @ 1:42PM|#
So some enterprising local pagans thought if it's good
enough for the Christians, it's good enough for us. After all,
religious freedom is for everyone.
You haven't got the White House memo, didn't you Ron? "[R]eligious
freedom is for everyone..." UNLESS YOU ARE A SATAN-WORSHIPIN'
PAGAN, CHRIST-KILLING JEW, TERRORIST MOOS-LIM, OR WORST OF ALL, A
GOODLESS COMMIE AY-THE-ST!!!!
|12.8.06 @ 1:49PM|#
I am really curious what a southern pagan is like.
"Y'all gotta embrace the spirit of the goddess."
|12.8.06 @ 1:54PM|#
Oh, just admit it, Mr. Bailey. You wouldn't hold this opinion if
you weren't in the pocket of Big Backpack. Why not just put a
Jansport ad right smack in the middle of the post?
Sheesh.
|12.8.06 @ 1:59PM|#
"Oh, just admit it, Mr. Bailey. You wouldn't hold this opinion
if you weren't in the pocket of Big Backpack. Why not just put a
Jansport ad right smack in the middle of the post?"
Why do I have this feeling that many libertarians have watched too
much Monty Python?
D.A. Ridgely|12.8.06 @ 2:00PM|#
Many public schools use special folders placed in student
backpacks to distribute notices about schools events and sometimes
extra-curricular activities to parents.
Excuse me, but "placed in"? Does this imply the school officials
place them inside the backpacks, themselves?
Bazil|12.8.06 @ 2:00PM|#
In Zeus I trust.
May your holidays be filled with herculian strength, dionysian wine
and orgies and care free joyousness of pam.
May Odin's Beard bless America.
|12.8.06 @ 2:02PM|#
Akira, you allright? Deep end, for sure.
Anyway, second to the default libertarian position on public
schools, I'm kinda with Joe on this. If you absolutely must have
state education, let's at least make it as neutral as possible.
|12.8.06 @ 2:04PM|#
Also wanted to say that I'll be distributing flyers for my next performance art piece. I'll be taking a shit on the local Ten Commandments display, smearing it until it obscures all of them except 6 and 8, then doing an interpretive dance to that Decemberists tune I keep hearing.
|12.8.06 @ 2:10PM|#
You know, when BushCo starting pushing all their faith-based
bullshit, I said to my Bush apologist friend, wait until the
Muslims start hoping on the same gravy train--that will be a sight
to behold.
Looks like the pagans beat them to the punch, but it will indeed be
a great day when Muslims beging to pick the fruit sowed by Falwell
and Co. I want a front row seat for that one.
|12.8.06 @ 2:13PM|#
I hope they reenact the good old days when packs of early
Christians were hunted down by their pagan tormentors and subjected
to burnings, death by animal attacks, staked out and consumed by
ants, and had they skulls cut open while they were still alive to
see if there were spirits lodged in their heads causing such
behavior.
To be fair to modern day pagans, the slaughter of early Christians
had as much to do with paganism as the Bush agenda has to do with
Christianity. It was the Roman state, bolstered by a
(coincidentally, I'm sure) newfound devotion to the god Jupiter,
that instigated the slaughter.
I'm always glad to see pagans getting mentioned in the press. I
would consider myself more of a transcendental humanist, or maybe a
gnostic pantheist, and not keen on organized religion one bit. I'll
definitely come to their mass if they are ever allowed to use
mushrooms as a sacrament, though.
Fuck, can you imagine that? Talk about a fundy's worst nightmare.
They let the UDV use ayahuasca because it tastes like shit and
vomite mixed together, so they don't need worry about their
children giving up Christ. But mushrooms? You can't have religious
ceremonies around MUSHROOMS! Why?
Because it feels good. Fucking puritans.
Ryo|12.8.06 @ 2:16PM|#
I question the very idea of this "backpack mail". While it might save the school money and thus taxpayers, I'm willing to bet it's a very lossy delivery mechanism. Anything I was given in charge of passing on to my parents would never make it to them, regardless of how important (or unimportant) it was. The sole exception being field trip permission slips which had no problem getting through.
thoreau|12.8.06 @ 2:18PM|#
Well, he's definitely not in the pocket of Big Earth.
With his techno-optimism and interest in space travel he might be
in the pocket of Big Mars or even the biggest of them all: Big
Saturn.
|12.8.06 @ 2:21PM|#
May your holidays be filled with herculian strength,
dionysian wine and orgies and care free joyousness of
pam.
Orgies? Where do I sign up for your church?
wingnutx|12.8.06 @ 2:27PM|#
I'm printing up 10,000 X-day pamphlets to fedex to this school district for distribution.
|12.8.06 @ 2:33PM|#
I'm so glad I got through school before the invention of the backpack. Those things will kill you.
|12.8.06 @ 2:34PM|#
I question the very idea of this "backpack mail". While it
might save the school money and thus taxpayers, I'm willing to bet
it's a very lossy delivery mechanism.
If my son is an example, it's a very lossy system indeed. Not that
I'm complaining...
I'm with joe. I don't understand why any church/political crap
would find it's way into "backpack mail" at all. The most "out
there" stuff I've seen in the local school bundle relates to
non-religious/non-political after school activities. I'd be pissed
is the churches were handing out crap, or there were flyers for
political issues.
|12.8.06 @ 2:38PM|#
billl,
"Those things will kill you."
That's why, if it weren't for dishonest Big Backpack shills like
Bailey, we could have a serious discussion and get those things
banned for the sake of our children.
|12.8.06 @ 2:51PM|#
We cannot allow this. It is fucked up. We may have the rite to
religion, but only if it is not some thing that some may be
offended by. Yo gots a right to free speach but not if politically
incorrect.
Wuzupp is Juanita man!!!
Stay the course
|12.8.06 @ 2:57PM|#
Orgies? Where do I sign up for your church?
Just some friendly advice. Take a look at the congregation before
you sign anything.
|12.8.06 @ 2:59PM|#
May your holidays be filled with herculian strength,
dionysian wine and orgies and care free joyousness of pam.
Orgies? Where do I sign up for your church?
Right next to the STD screening station, Jozef
|12.8.06 @ 3:00PM|#
Santorum's kid just starting crying again. Crying bitter tears for little baby Jeebus.
|12.8.06 @ 3:10PM|#
the joyousness of pam? sure, it's a great cooking spray and all, but let's not go overboard.
|12.8.06 @ 3:11PM|#
Henry means me when he says Bush apologist. But he forgets that Bush is the one that said that Islam is a religion of peace. So, I'm sure he's down with it. On the other hand, pagans are clearly loony. I mean, who is their god? What miracles has he/she performed? Worshiping plants? animals? water? Part of a well-balanced diet maybe. But not worthy of a religion.
|12.8.06 @ 3:43PM|#
rac
Your liver would be especially tasty with some fava beans and a
nice chianti
|12.8.06 @ 3:53PM|#
Which is worse, a well-marbled liver, or a well-marbled left anterior descending artery?
John M. Joy|12.8.06 @ 5:05PM|#
I had considered joining the UU church at one point. Trouble is,
I don't know if I could reconcile it (my beliefs, especially
political) with positions taken by the UUA.
Thoughts (from former/current libertarian UUs)?
JMJ
|12.8.06 @ 5:44PM|#
the joyousness of pam? sure, it's a great cooking spray and
all, but let's not go overboard.
Cooking? Ha! Combine it with a game of Twister, and you're sure to
have a Merry Christmas.
|12.8.06 @ 5:54PM|#
JMJ,
There is a small contingency of libertarian UUs. It is fun to
converse with intelligent, thoughtful, knowledgeable folks about
politics even if their views don't always jibe with mine. When we
don't agree, the discussions get better, and they always stay
civil. Respect for people is one of the few tenets of UUism.
I recently was having a conversation with a member of our church
about Wal-Mart. He said something about labor practices. I got to
ask him if he was talking about the foreign labor making the
products they sell or the domestic labor they employ, and then made
the case for why Wal-Mart was good for workers in both cases. I was
able to make it clear that I did care about the workers welfare. We
were in a group meeting, and I think that, at the very least, some
members of our group gave the issues more thought. They aren't all
knee-jerkers.
That being said, my congregation is not the same as the other
congregation near my home. The other one is more involved in
"social action," and seem a little more hippie/socialist. Each
congregation may have a different flavor, so you may find one
church more to your liking than another. Some are more humanist,
some Christian, some pan-religion, some more spiritual, and so
on.
|12.8.06 @ 6:01PM|#
joe,
IMHO, this "backpack mail" isn't a forum made available for
free speech, but an arm of the school used for school business.
Ergo, no God stuff.
If they've opened the "backpack mail" to organizations not
affiliated with the school then it looks like a public forum. For
example, how would one differentiate it from say a bulletin board
open to public commentary, notices, etc.?
|12.8.06 @ 6:10PM|#
I'm curious how Ron got along with the Unitarians in
Charlottesville.
Given that the Unitarian Church is pretty much the Democratic party
at prayer. Or would be if they bothered to pray. (I once attended a
service at the same Thomas Jefferson Unitarian Church, in which a
good chunk of time was taken in distributing letters calling for
the impeachment of Richard Nixon and urging the members of the
congregation to sign the letters, type in their names and
addresses, and send the letters to Washington. I don't recall
whether this was after Watergate hit the fan, or whether it was
just general rage at the Vietnam War, Spiro Agnew, and putting
Howard Phillips in charge of the Office of Economic
Opportunity.)
BTW, it occurs to me that letting Falwell's people and the Wiccan
both distribute their literature is exactly the right outcome from
a First Amendment standpoint. There shouldn't be a doctrine that
holds religious speech (along with with commercial speech
and--since McCain-Feingold--political speech) as somehow worthy of
*less* First Amendment protection than, say, Ulysses.
|12.8.06 @ 6:21PM|#
Given that the Unitarian Church is pretty much the
Democratic party at prayer.
Not only are there other libertarians at my church, not everything
is about politics. Sometimes you have to think about coffee
hour.
And, you liked Nixon and the Viet Nam war? It was before my time,
but analogous to current events. I am not a Democrat. I would sign
statements, in fact, I have signed statements condemning the war
and GWB.
|12.8.06 @ 7:20PM|#
BTW, it occurs to me that letting Falwell's people and the
Wiccan both distribute their literature is exactly the right
outcome from a First Amendment standpoint. There shouldn't be a
doctrine that holds religious speech (along with with commercial
speech and--since McCain-Feingold--political speech) as somehow
worthy of *less* First Amendment protection than, say,
Ulysses.
Yes. exactly.
|12.8.06 @ 8:05PM|#
rac, you raise religious prejudice to an art form.
I mean that. That was brilliant.
|12.8.06 @ 8:21PM|#
Zeno,
The school choosing to pass out information is not the equivalent
of opening up the backpack folders as a public forum. Schools are,
in one sense, information-passing-out machines. Think about
lectures, handouts. Schools have access to information, and they
make choices about what to pass out and how to do it. That's what
schools do.
And the school is not just allowed, but required, to avoid
performing its information-passing-out function for "partisan,
sectarian, religious, or political" purposes, because it is a
government entity.
The statement that "shouldn't be a doctrine that holds religious
speech...as somehow worthy of *less* First Amendment protection
than, say, Ulysses" doesn't apply. By the process of putting the
information into the folders and having the kids take the folder
home so the parents can get that information, they are making it
their - the school's - speech. As such, it sure as heck can be
censored from promoting a sect or religion. The school would be
violating the establishment clause if it used its government
function to further a religion.
|12.8.06 @ 10:21PM|#
I'm a UU, too. While we have a *very* active green movement with
reverent viewings of "An Inconvenient Truth" and a social justice
movement that comes across as a leveler movement sometimes, our
congregation isn't quite large enough for those who don't toe the
party line to feel overwhelmed.
Recently, we had a Veteran's Day service where Vietnam Vets
recalled getting spit on by war protesters and getting disparaged
by the UU church at the time. This service was very well received
with much sympathy for our many members who were and are in the
military.
My wife, who strongly believes in the death penalty, is heavily
involved in the planning for the upcoming "Season for Nonviolence".
There is at least one other member active Libertarian family that I
know of.
Overall, I have found that UUs tend to be willing to discuss ideas
with respect. There are exceptions, but they prove the rule.
|12.8.06 @ 10:39PM|#
"...the policy was soon revised to allow religious groups to use
the backpack mail system."
Does this include, say, atheists from using the system to promote
atheism? How about if someone established a group that argues that
religion is evil, would such a group be able to use this system to
promote anti-religious causes? If not, it's still not fair, and
it's still a violation of the separation of church and state.
And even if it allowed such things, I don't think it's a good idea.
Because it would cause students to face different religious or
anti-religious bias depending on where they live, what religious
groups are in town, etc. Either religion should be kept out of
public schools altogether, or if you must expose them to religion,
all views on religion should be equally available no matter where
you are.
|12.9.06 @ 12:41AM|#
joe,
The school choosing to pass out information is not the
equivalent of opening up the backpack folders as a public
forum.
It could be. It depends on the facts, who is involved, etc.
However, the mere medium does not preclude such a judgment.
Think about lectures, handouts.
And if the school chose to allow lectures by outside groups then it
may create a public forum in doing so. Indeed, there are number of
court cases where that very activity was found to be a public
forum.
And the school is not just allowed, but required, to avoid
performing its information-passing-out function for "partisan,
sectarian, religious, or political" purposes, because it is a
government entity.
From what I can tell you are confusing the "Lemon Test" with the
public forum case law. While related, they follow different
tracks.
Anyway, again, it depends on the facts at hand. Clearly though the
school could create a public forum via these backpack handouts if
chose to do so by passing on information from other parties. All
that it would need do is do it in such a fashion that is
non-discriminatory. That's one of the central positions of the
Supreme Court on the matter.
By the process of putting the information into the folders and
having the kids take the folder home so the parents can get that
information, they are making it their - the school's -
speech.
Unless they open the folders up to other parties, which is
perfectly appropriate under the rulings of the Supreme Court. If a
municipality can create a public space where it "celebrates" the
holidays and opens it up to other parties to do the same thing then
why the same thing isn't possible with these packets. I may not
agree with them, but the Supreme Court's decisions are fairly clear
that such forums are permissable.
As such, it sure as heck can be censored from promoting a sect
or religion.
It isn't doing so if all parties are allowed to enter and comment
in the forum.
The school would be violating the establishment clause if it
used its government function to further a religion.
Only if it was discriminating against a particular religious
belief, and then only if it was doing so in an effort to target
that particular religious belief.
|12.9.06 @ 12:55AM|#
joe,
To be more succint...
The Supreme Court has found no EC violation where the state does
not:
"sponsor … [the religious] expression, the expression … [is] made
on government property … opened to the public for speech, and [the]
permission … [for use] is requested through the same application
and on the same terms required of other private groups." Capitol
Square Review and Advisory Board v. Pinette, 515 U.S. 753, 763
(1995).
|12.9.06 @ 1:00AM|#
Actually, instead of me butchering it, let me just quote it in
full:
Quite obviously, the factors that we considered determinative
in Lamb's Chapel and Widmar exist here as well. The State did not
sponsor respondents' expression, the expression was made on
government property that had been opened to the public for speech,
and permission was requested through the same application process
and on the same terms required of other private groups.
To be found here:
http://www.law.cornell.edu/supct/html/94-780.ZO.html
|12.9.06 @ 1:51AM|#
Rimfax,
Our congregation has had the viewings of Al Gore's movie, too. My
wife thought it might be interesting. I've avoided it because I'm
afraid I'll snicker throughout it while I think of the South Park
episode.
I go to Unity Temple in Oak Park. Where are you a member?
|12.9.06 @ 2:53AM|#
"rac, you raise religious prejudice to an art form.
I mean that. That was brilliant."
Religious prejudice is not only fair, it is desirable. Religions
are belief systems, and belief systems are ALWAYS open to scorn and
attack, however grounded. It makes no sense to say it is perfectly
fair to attack belief systems grounded upon a purported study of
history and economics (Communism) or culture and nationalism
(fascism) but NOT those based upon the alleged utterances and
"inspired" writings of magical invisible beings. Various religious
bullshitters have pushed this "get out of accountability jail free"
card forever, but piss on them--they are just looking for a free
pass.
|12.9.06 @ 10:50AM|#
Somehow, it's very appropriate to discuss Al Gore's movie in a
religious context. His followers sure as hell get vicious towards
anyone they consider a heretic.
-jcr
|12.9.06 @ 11:18AM|#
Please, somebody explain to me why anything Al Gore says is considered news. He's bragged about being a tobacco farmer. He's demonized the trobacco industry. He has demonstrated that he is a career politician, no more , no less.
Larry A|12.9.06 @ 12:45PM|#
Jeff Riddle, pastor of Jefferson Park Baptist Church in
Charlottesville: "If the school allows the Baptist or Methodist
church to send home a note to its students about Vacation Bible
School, it also has to allow the Unitarian Church to send home a
note about its 'Pagan ritual to celebrate Yule'….This kind of note
adds weight to the argument that it is high time for Christians to
leave public schools for reasonable alternatives (homeschooling and
private Christian schools)."
Because they can't stand the competition?
There is a small contingency of libertarian UUs. It is fun to
converse with intelligent, thoughtful, knowledgeable folks about
politics even if their views don't always jibe with
mine.
As a concealed handgun instructor I get asked to do talks and
debates on gun-related subjects. The only two religious
organizations to take advantage of this were the
Presbyterian-related university and the local UU congregation. The
university program was killed before it got off the ground, but the
UU discussion, a part of their ongoing program, was a
well-organized and educational event. Impressed me.
The school would be violating the establishment clause if it
used its government function to further a religion.
To further a religion. The establishment clause
is. "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of
religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof..." The school
therefore has two choices. It may prohibit any religious fliers on
campus, or it may allow all religious fliers on campus. To me the
more Constitutional choice is to allow any religious organization
(including anti-religious ones) free access into the marketplace of
ideas.
|12.9.06 @ 2:10PM|#
I go to Unity Temple in Oak Park. Where are you a
member?
Oh, wow, isn't that the Frank Lloyd Wright building? Oh, wow!
|12.9.06 @ 7:29PM|#
Zeno,
"It could be. It depends on the facts, who is involved, etc.
However, the mere medium does not preclude such a judgment."
Yes, it does. Teachers putting notices into folders for kids to
bring home to their parents has never - never - been a public
forum, but an operation of the school.
"Unless they open the folders up to other parties..."
Again, you're ignoring what a school is. When they hand out text
books, that is information submitted to them by, say,
Houghton-Mifflin. Should Jerry Falwell be allowed to force them to
hand out his pamphlets because they hand out English grammer books
that aren't produced by the school? Of course not.
Although I agree with your last part - if the school had a forum
that it used to provide religious information, it could not
discriminate against religions.
To respond succinctly, putting notices into backpack folders, and
ordering the kids to give the folders to their parents, IS
"sponsoring" that information.
Talldave|12.9.06 @ 11:25PM|#
Freedom of religion, not from religion.
The school is not prohhibited from doing anything. "Congress shall
make no law respecting an establishment of religion" -- is a
schoolteacher Congress?
Talldave|12.9.06 @ 11:35PM|#
And for that matter, is a pamphlet a law?
The militant atheists ran the church out of society in Europe, and
look where it's gotten them: the secularists are dying out while
the mosques are filling. Islam is winning converts, not losing them
to atheism; demography suggests the post-Christian secular
experiment is a nihilistic fantasy whose success is inherently
self-destructive. Does anyone think the emerging Muslim majorities
are going to play by the secularists' rules, rather than vice
versa?
The Constitution is not a suicide pact.
|12.10.06 @ 12:52AM|#
No one was talking about running church out of society. Public
schools isn't society. Churches won't die out just because you take
religion out of schools. They might for other reasons. And I wasn't
aware that militant atheists ran the chuch out of society in
Europe. Where'd you get this info? And where'd you get this info
about Islam converts? All this is news to me.
Oh, and schools are prohibited from doing lots of things. Too many
to mention. But if you want some examples, they may not kill
students, may not rape them, may not kidnap them, may not force
them to eat tuna fish sandwiches . . .
And freedom of religion includes freedom from religion also. Why
should atheists be denied the same rights of expression and
association as religious groups? No reason whatsoever.
Talldave|12.10.06 @ 1:38AM|#
"Public schools isn't society."
Well, it's where the majority of society spends 40 hours a week for
15-20 years being told how to think.
And of course it's not just the schools or the Nativity scene in
the public square. Government continues to grow, and the
secularists belive religion isn't allowed to hold the hand of
government in any way, shape or form: the logical conclusion is
less and less religion will be allowed. Again, if you want to know
secular society turns out, take a look at Europe. Japan may be
xenophobic and technophilic enough to survive its demography
issues, but old Europe is disappearing beneath the rising tide of a
confident faith.
Talldave|12.10.06 @ 1:39AM|#
"Why should atheists be denied the same rights of expression and
association as religious groups? No reason whatsoever."
Who says atheists can't send home pamphlets too?
dhex|12.10.06 @ 2:48AM|#
some religious groups are more insecure than others, perhaps.
or, to use a more modern description, "wussy." i find it hard to
parse falwell's lack of historical perspective in this case
otherwise, unless they're just down with "i know a real religion
when i see one."
"The Constitution is not a suicide pact."
this is a particularly strong meme, i must say. it's fun to spring
on people at parties when they've had a little too much to drink.
you get that classic "boggleboggle" effect that makes social
interaction so worthwhile.
i am reminded of the morbidly obese folk who get "terrorist hunting
permit" bumper stickers for their trucks. man, the first time i saw
that was like the first time i saw a "our god is an awesome god" or
a "senseless acts of kindness" bumper sticker; you think "thank
zog, i've finally lost my mind. no more waiting around for the big
scene, the cops and the tasers and the restraining orders. nice and
calm, in a parking lot on route 17...this isn't so bad."
but then you realize the owner is probably serious.
the world is a very rough place sometimes.
|12.10.06 @ 6:14AM|#
joe,
"Teachers putting notices into folders for kids to bring home to
their parents has never - never - been a public forum, but an
operation of the school."
Are you appealing to tradition? How would the federal courts ever
manage to reform this backward country and its backward laws if
they had to defer to government policies which were backed by
tradition?
|12.10.06 @ 8:50AM|#
The Constitution is not a suicide pact.
I'm no expert on these matters, but "Give me liberty or give me
death," sounds pretty suicidal to me.
|12.10.06 @ 9:20AM|#
joe,
As I wrote it depends on the facts; the mere medium though doesn't
seem to preclude by itself this from becoming a public forum or a
limited public forum.
|12.10.06 @ 9:24AM|#
Thank you, TallDave, for taking off the mask. You want to use
the public schools to advance Christian religion. Sorry, the US is
not a Christian version of Iran, and we don't do that.
BTW, you do know that about half the countries in western Europe
have official state religions, right?
Mad Max,
"Are you appealing to tradition?" No, I'm categorizing the practice
based on its use as a medium through which the schools provides
information to parents.
|12.10.06 @ 10:49AM|#
BTW, you do know that about half the countries in western
Europe have official state religions, right?
That is an excellent point to make, joe. And one that needs to be
made far more often.
The right wing myth of "militant atheist" Europeans is every bit as
silly as the left wing myth of "enlightened, cultured,
tolerant"
Europeans who spend all their time at art galleries and the opera
and enjoying gourmet food.
Europeans tend not to believe in God in the same way as American
fundamentalists do. Church attendance is low and outward displays
of piety are considered in poor taste.
Atheism may be far more prevalent than in the US but among the
Europeans I know there is a tendency to believe that there is some
kind of deity. They just don't spend a lot of time thinking about
it.
|12.10.06 @ 12:34PM|#
Isaac Bertram,
There are a number of majority atheist European countries.
FWIW:
http://www.pitzer.edu/academics/faculty/zuckerman/atheism.html
|12.10.06 @ 1:45PM|#
Is this the thread where I get to slam the damn fool pagen who first thought it was a good idea to bring a tree into a house? And how come the Dawn isn't washing the sap off my hands?
|12.10.06 @ 3:20PM|#
Because Dawn is water-based, and tree sap isn't water soluble. Use an oil-based cleaner like mineral spirits or baby oil, or buy an abrasive soap like Lava or one produced with citric acid.
|12.10.06 @ 3:32PM|#
Shem, what makes a soap molecule a soap molecule is that part of the molecule is water soluble, and part is lipid soluble, allowing the soap molecules to surround oily/ lipid stains and carry them away in water. that's true of Dawn and any other detergent, by definition.
|12.10.06 @ 4:09PM|#
biologist-Pardon me, you're right. Tree sap is actually a type of latex, which makes it vulnerable to oil-based solvents. I misunderstood a friend's explanation as to why I couldn't use oil on latex.
|12.11.06 @ 12:50AM|#
"'Are you appealing to tradition?' No, I'm categorizing the
practice based on its use as a medium through which the schools
provides information to parents."
Whew! For a second there, I thought you'd gone conservative on
us!
Now that we've disclaimed reliance on tradition, what's the
relevance of the fact that "Teachers putting notices into folders .
. . has never - never - been a public forum" until the courts got
involved? I mean, you could just as well say that marriage was
never -- never -- considered a same-sex institution in the U.S.
until activist courts got involved. Or that released-time programs
and school prayer were never considered a breach of the "wall
between church and state" until activist courts started saying
otherwise.
Remember the SWAT principle -- Slavery Was A Tradition! That slogan
will stop the mouths of those pesky conservatives!
|12.11.06 @ 9:44AM|#
I suppose I could explain, again, why folder mail isn't a public forum, but I'll pass.
Site comments/questions:
Media Inquiries and Reprint Permissions:
(310) 367-6109
Editorial & Production Offices:
3415 S. Sepulveda Blvd.
Suite 400
Los Angeles, CA 90034
(310) 391-2245