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So that's where the freedom babes ended up...
Remember the Freedom Babes? Those sun-nuzzled honeys with Cedars of Lebanon painted on their cheeks, who hogged the cameras at Martyr's Square and put a surge of hope (warblogging might help me score chicks?) into the pants of desktop warriors everywhere? The anti-Syrian freedom foxes even created a vogue for the theory that "beautiful women are always on the cutting edge of social trends" (which would be news to anybody who was on the internet before about 1999). It turns out they're also on the cutting edge of some very old social trends. Yahoo News takes you to a protest outside the Israeli consulate in New York:
Democracy-whiskey-sexy diehards, never known for their gallantry, will object that these two ain't all that. (A lie: The one on the left is at least as presentable as any of the girls of March.) The picture also has the signs of being one of those dozen-people-crowded into-a-narrow-frame setups that for the past three years have been used to make pathetically small "pro-Bush" rallies look slightly less unimpressive. But maybe it's time to reconsider the Freedom Babe theory of forward progress. (Even at the height of the fever I'd have traded all these coozes for one old man with electrical-tape eyebrows.) The French army may not be very good at fighting wars, but when they executed Mata Hari (whose incredible life story is always worth reading), they understood something no warblogger ever figured out: Don't put your trust in a pretty face.
|7.20.06 @ 6:22AM|#
The one on the left is at least as presentable as any of the
girls of March.
Just the one? Maybe my standards are different than your's Tim, but
both of these daughters of the Fertile Cresent(assuming that is
they're linage) fall well into my "sexy" scale.
|7.20.06 @ 7:33AM|#
This post seems to imply that the freedom babes in question are being obviously anti-semitic (those "very old social trends" Tim mentions), and while it's possible that they're actually shouting all sorts of anti-semitic racial epithets, that's really not apparent from that photo. That picture shows Lebanese civilians protesting the attacks of a hostile foreign power, and I don't see why that's either surprising or alarming. I can only assume that if some neighboring country was bombing the crap out of America, destroying huge swaths of civilian infrastructure and killing tons of noncombatants, we might be mistreating their flags, too.
|7.20.06 @ 8:13AM|#
I think they are following those old anti-Semitic trends because they are blaming Israel solely; an honest anti-war honey would trod upon a Hezbollah flag or trash its symbol.
|7.20.06 @ 8:16AM|#
Iron Lungfish,
I've always been curious as to how the term "anti-semitic" came to
mean anti-Jewish rather than the broader literal interpretation.
Unless the "freedom babes" are self-loathing, it seems a little odd
to label them anti-semitic since they ARE Semitic (Assuming they
are Arab.), too. Can anyone enlighten me? Why not just call people
"anti-Jewish" rather than hijacking the term for an entire ethnic
group?
|7.20.06 @ 8:21AM|#
I think they are following those old anti-Semitic trends
because they are blaming Israel solely; an honest anti-war honey
would trod upon a Hezbollah flag or trash its symbol.
Right, it's Hezbollah's fault that Israel is attacking unrelated
Lebanese civilian targets. Actually, according to your logic in
earlier threads, the people of a nation are responsible for
militant groups in their midst, so they should stomp a Lebanese
flag as well.
|7.20.06 @ 8:34AM|#
That's right, Mo. Refusing to stand up to evil is granting it
your personal moral sanction. Or do you think governments just
"happen to occur" and we're all just powerless to stop it?
Personal responsibility, Mo...when the U.S. slides into statism,
who should you blame? The people who go about their daily lives and
do and say nothing.
attacking unrelated Lebanese civilian targets
Please provide a link or evidence that Israel is just targeting
civilians willy-nilly. I sense you're just blustering again.
Again, what should Israel have done? What would you have prescribed
for them instead?
|7.20.06 @ 8:39AM|#
Mo,
So Israel is just supposed to sit there and let Hezbollah fire
rockets into its territory? Oh I get it, the Michael Young "why
can't they just attack the South" theory. That is a great idea
because Hezbollah would certainly just sit there and wait for the
Israelis to come and kill them. They would never do anything
unsporting like move to other areas of Lebenon where they knew the
Israelis wouldn't bomb. They would just sit there and wait to die
like the North Vietnamese did when the U.S. tried limited bombing
during the Vietnam war. Isreal has a right to act in self defense
and destroy Hezbollah. The cannot destroy Hezbollah if they
restrict their bombing to one area of the country. I feel bad for
the Lebonese, but the fact remains they have armed militias firing
rockets at another country. The whole thing stinks but it is
entirely Hezbollah's fault. Let's all hope that there can at least
one good thing come from this tragedy; that Isreal absolutely
obliterates Hezbollah killing its leaders and mortally wounding its
rank and file.
The Wine Commonsewer|7.20.06 @ 8:45AM|#
That picture shows Lebanese civilians protesting the
attacks...
It is more likely that these chicks are Americans whose forebears
were Lebanese given that they're protesting in NY.
|7.20.06 @ 9:05AM|#
Ayn_Randian,
I'm under the impression that a lot of Lebanese would love to get
rid of Hizbollah, but that it's not something they have the
strength and ability to do.
John,
I think if Hizbollah actually moved to a different area of the
country, Israel would have a strong argument for bombing there. But
it makes no sense to say they should bomb in the north because they
would move there.
Jennifer|7.20.06 @ 9:12AM|#
Personal responsibility, Mo...when the U.S. slides into
statism, who should you blame? The people who go about their daily
lives and do and say nothing.
What are you doing to prevent this slide, Ayn Randian? Does griping
on the Internet count as "doing something?"
Hey, it's not my fault the US slid into statism--you
should've seen some of the comments I made on Hit
and Run!
|7.20.06 @ 9:12AM|#
a lot of Lebanese would love to get rid of
Hizbollah
They would love to get rid of them so much, that they granted them
23 seats in their governing legislature. If they are the majority
and really wanted to get rid of them, they would. I don't buy the
"powerless Lebanese" argument...further, if Lebanon really wanted
to step up to the plate and get rid of Hezbollah, I would bet all
they would have to do is ask the U.S. or Israel, better yet.
Sandy|7.20.06 @ 9:13AM|#
The alternative to not attacking bridges in the north or central
Beirut, or power generation for Maronite villages (who were, prior
to this conflict, at least moderately pro-Israel, and believe me,
they stomped on some Hezbollah symbols in their time) is NOT "just
taking" rockets. Nobody has criticized them for going after
Hezbollah's military capabilities, but the number of rockets still
being fired at Israel suggests they have been eschewing some of
those military targets in favor of destabilizing the first true
government Lebanon has had in 25 years.
If I were an Israeli with family members killed by Hamas after the
fourth day of fighting in Lebanon, I'd be asking why the raids
aren't fully targetted at Hamas's military capability.
|7.20.06 @ 9:13AM|#
Bombing Lebanor where the Hizbollah isn't is pretty dumb. Just like the joke of the drunk who looks for the key to his house across from the street where he dropped them because it is better lighted...
|7.20.06 @ 9:17AM|#
What are you doing to prevent this slide, Ayn
Randian?
The best I can Jennifer, attempting to educate my friends and
family about government's outrageous trangressions against liberty,
writing articles and letters for local media and websites
advocating the freedomist ideal, donating money to pro-liberty
groups. It may not be much, but if the U.S. were in imminent danger
of falling into totalitarianism, and I didn't speak up, well, I get
what I deserve.
|7.20.06 @ 9:20AM|#
when the U.S. slides into statism, who should you
blame?
Ayn Randian,
When the U.S. slides into statism? Aren't we there? Hasn't
the slide continued pretty much unabated for 200 years? Can you
give me examples of how you been able to slow or stop the slide?
Other than your action-oriented posts on libertarian blogs, of
course...
Jennifer|7.20.06 @ 9:29AM|#
The original Ayn Rand should have done something to prevent Russia's slide into Communism, rather than turn tail and run away. Why were the looters able to confiscate her father's store? Because they had the sanction of the victim.
|7.20.06 @ 9:34AM|#
Right, because when Israel, with its far superior military, was
able to maintain control of Hezbollah when they occupied Lebanon.
Only when they left Lebanon did Hezbollah become an issue again.
And destroying Lebanon's own infrastructure, including military
barracks and power, is going to give the Lebanese the ability to
shed Hezbollah.
If the people are powerless to stop Hezbollah, then they should
bear the brunt. Everyone is in agreement that Syria is the source
of this problem. Why no attack on the responsible party if this is
about personal responsibility?
Some unrelated targets, from CNN:
In its ongoing air assault, Israel's military targeted Beirut, hitting a vehicle in the city's Christian neighborhood -- shocking residents who do not wholly support the Islamic militant group
Israeli forces bombed the Jiyeh power plant south of the Lebanese capital early Sunday, Lebanese army sources said
In the city of Abdeh, about 50 miles (about 80 kilometers) north of Beirut, three Israeli missiles struck an army barracks, officials said, killing six soldiers and wounding 28.
|7.20.06 @ 9:36AM|#
Do you have a point, Jennifer, or are you just trying to tear me
down?
This is why libertarianism [insert comment about why we're not
getting anywhere], because you mention that it's time people
actually do something and everyone sits around going "oh yeah, well
what about you..what have you done?"
At least I am making an attempt.
Freakin' crab bucket effect.
Jennifer|7.20.06 @ 9:43AM|#
Do you have a point, Jennifer . . . At least I am making an
attempt.
First of all, how do you know that the Lebanese haven't made
attempts too, only perhaps their attempts failed as spectacularly
as did your "educate my friends" campaign to turn our own country
into a freedom-lover's paradise? The fact that your failures didn't
lead to anything so bad as Hezbollah resounds to our government's
credit, not yours.
My point, incidentally, is that I have little reason to take
seriously an American sitting in the comfort of his
climate-controlled computer room blaming Lebanese teens for the
fact that Hezbollah runs loose in their country. If Colombia gets
the military wherewithal to invade us, and bombs your home into
rubble, can I take it that you will serenely say "this is my fault
for not doing enough to stop the US government from dumping
herbicides all over their farmland?"
|7.20.06 @ 9:47AM|#
Ayn_Randian falls into collective thinking quite easily:
"They would love to get rid of them so much, that they granted them
23 seats in their governing legislature"
Just like you would like to get rid of drug warriors so much that
you granted them nearly 100% of the government. I guess Cory Maye
has a right to kill your family now.
"That's right, Mo. Refusing to stand up to evil is granting it your
personal moral sanction. Or do you think governments just "happen
to occur" and we're all just powerless to stop it?"
No, but any given individual may decide that it is more important
to live for his family than it is to die in a vain attempt to fight
his state. Again, how come you're on the internet and not out
shooting at the evil welfare state that is oppressing you and your
neighbors?
And finally, the canard of all collectivists, from Marx, to Lenin,
to Mao: But we didn't INTEND to harm anyone! Our intentions were
pure...:
"Please provide a link or evidence that Israel is just targeting
civilians willy-nilly."
I guess if you're killed knowingly or recklessly, it's not murder.
Make you sure you try to use that argument to your local prosecutor
when do your duty by violently resisting the state that you claim
oppresses you and others.
Personal responsibility is PERSONAL. Not collective. I have no
responsibility for what someone else does, even if they claim to be
doing it my name, unless I personally, voluntarily support them.
And when I voluntarily shoot a gun and kill an innocent, I am
responsible for killing them. Noone else. I may be justified in
shooting my gun, but I am never justified in killing an innocent,
only my liability may be mitigated. It can't be any other way,
unless you are positing that the innocent, when he sees me draw my
gun to shoot at third party in his vicinity, has the absolute right
of shooting me to defend himself from me.
That, my friend, is personal responsibility. Something that
Insta-Sellout libertarians and neo-Objectivists and other
collective identity "libertarians" know absolutely nothing
about.
|7.20.06 @ 9:48AM|#
can I take it that you will serenely say "this is my fault
for not doing enough to stop the US government from dumping
herbicides all over their farmland?"
It won't be serene, but yes, it will be our fault for allowing such
immoral practices of our government, for which we pay and have a
say, to run rampant.
*Sigh* I see your point, however...perhaps things have to get so
bad that the we pull a "Founding Fathers" in America again...
Jennifer|7.20.06 @ 9:53AM|#
it will be our fault for allowing such immoral practices of
our government, for which we pay and have a say, to run
rampant.
But the word "allow" doesn't work in this case. I have no doubt
that if you could actually stop Plan Colombia it would be gone. And
for all that you disagree with me on many things, I think you know
there'd be no Plan Colombia if I had any actual say in
things, either. But I don't and you don't. What did you personally
do to "allow" our government to do such things? What could you have
done differently to make Gitmo not exist? Nothing.
|7.20.06 @ 10:11AM|#
Jennifer, not to go Schoolhouse Rock on you, but we do have a
say, it's called the First Amendment, coupled with political
activism and voting. Past that, we have the ability and hopefully,
the drive, to speak out against statism whenever and wherever it
rears its head, from college campuses to our dinner tables.
Or is libertarianism just another word for cynical and jaded?
|7.20.06 @ 10:27AM|#
Randian,
I'd like to know how you think Lebanon could eliminate a problem
that Israel failed to eliminate when they occupied the nation for
20 years.
Jennifer|7.20.06 @ 10:31AM|#
Or is libertarianism just another word for cynical and
jaded?
You say "cynical and jaded;" I say "realist." But could you answer
my question: what could you, personally, have done to make
Plan Colombia not exist? If your answer is "nothing," which I
suspect it is, then you do not bear direct responsibility for
this.
(And I'm asking for realistic solutions, not "I personally could
have taken some guns and led a revolution which wiped out everyone
in the DEA and every member of government which voted for
it.")
P.S. to Tim Cavanaugh: it really isn't fair to judge a woman's
beauty based on a snapshot taken of her in mid-yell.
Warren|7.20.06 @ 10:32AM|#
What could you have done differently to make Gitmo not
exist? Nothing.
That's not entirely true. One could "stop enabling" our government
by not paying taxes, or moving to another country. More committed
radicals would shout publicly that they refuse to pay taxes and
force the government to prosecute and incarcerate them.
Now I am 100% against Gimo, Plan Columbia, etc. but I don't have
anything close to the courage or commitment to get myself arrested.
I don't expect you to either. But it is wrong to say that we are
impotent. There is more that we could be doing. Actually I think I
might get myself arrested if I had a leader like Gandhi, or MLK to
follow.
|7.20.06 @ 10:33AM|#
I don't think it's impossible to foment change in this country.
It's just hard--we're big, and big things have a lot of inertia. To
overcome that inertia takes a lot of people changing their ways or,
perhaps, a smaller number of people banging the drums for change
over a sustained period.
Still, I am not the government. Nor do I have the power or
the resources to fight against everything bad that the government
does in my name. It's one of the reasons I'm attracted to
libertarianism, because I see it primarily as a way to change the
nature of government, to reduce it to a scale where the power of
the government to do bad things at all is strictly limited. I'm
just fascinated by the fact that left and right wingers think that
a system that over and over and over again has allowed things that
appall them to occur when the other party is in power is just
peachy, without ever stopping to consider that maybe the system
itself is the problem, not which joker is running it this
year.
On the flip side--and I've said this before--libertarians are
usually people who want to live their lives free of government
intervention. As such, they're the least likely to get politically
involved or to turn to the government for solutions to problems. I
have maintained and still maintain that there are large numbers of
partial and full-blown libertarians in our society, but this
"apathy" is a killer when it comes to galvanizing them to rework
our political system.
|7.20.06 @ 11:32AM|#
Ayn, you are correct.
As a Greek Orthodox, I know many Arabs. And there is a sizable
number of Christian Arabs in Lebanon and Syria (who are not
terrorists). And I feel for them.
But Hiz was ELECTED to positions of power. They are not just
roaming gangs. They have a political platform and a PUBLIC
agenda--which was very clear in their campaign promises.I.e. they
were voted into power.
People have a responsiblity to get rid of their crazies. I dont
care what religion they are or even if they have a religion.
But if bombs are dropping on you right now and you voted for Hiz,
you have only yourself to blame.
Jennifer|7.20.06 @ 12:03PM|#
But if bombs are dropping on you right now and you voted for
Hiz, you have only yourself to blame.
What if the bombs are dropping on you but you did NOT vote for
Hezbollah? I sure as hell didn't vote for any of the bozos in my
current government.
Jennifer|7.20.06 @ 12:10PM|#
One could "stop enabling" our government by not paying
taxes, or moving to another country. More committed radicals would
shout publicly that they refuse to pay taxes and force the
government to prosecute and incarcerate them.
Even if you did this, it would not make Gitmo or Plan Colombia go
away; all it might do is let you enjoy the feeling of martyrdom
while you rot in jail. And if Colombia managed to bomb our country,
I doubt they'd go out of their way to avoid the prison where you're
incarcerated.
I did not ask what you could do to stand on the moral high ground;
I asked how you could stop Plan Colombia or make Gitmo close down.
Big difference.
|7.20.06 @ 12:19PM|#
Perhaps the lesson (a lesson, anyway) is that, whether
or not it's right, we do share in the credit and the blame that our
societies, cultures and especially governments receive. There was
no doubt a large minority of Germans in WWII who thought their
government's actions were terrible, but they shared in the
suffering that resulted. (Had Germany won, they would have shared
in the benefits.)
That's not necessarily RIGHT, but it is how reality works. It's
also what gives us such an incentive to get our
(gov't/society/etc.) to do what we think is right, rather than just
let it go its own merry way. To loop back to Lebanon, what the
Lebanese are now experiencing is WHY they need to destroy
Hezbollah. Should events turn against Israel, we'll see why
Israelis should have reined in their own government.
Tim Cavanaugh|7.20.06 @ 12:29PM|#
To loop back to Lebanon, what the Lebanese are now
experiencing is WHY they need to destroy Hezbollah.
And while they're at it they need to destroy all earth-bound
asteroids, mass-manufacture perpetual motion devices, and invent a
hot fudge sundae that makes you lose weight. And if they don't do
these things, they deserve to be killed.
Warren|7.20.06 @ 12:38PM|#
Even if you did this, it would not make Gitmo or Plan
Colombia go away
Perhaps (but perhaps your example might inspire others), but you're
missing the larger point. Plan Colombia is financed with Jennifer's
taxes, by paying taxes you bare direct responsibility. It
may be true that you are powerless to end it, but it is
certainly true that it is within your power to withdraw your
support.
|7.20.06 @ 12:46PM|#
Tim,
(1) Where did I say "deserve"? If you let a militia occupy your
"country" (which has arguably thereby ceased to be a state) and
launch attacks against neighbors, they will respond and pound the
living hell out of you. If you're lucky they'll be somewhat
discriminate in who they pound hardest. That doesn't mean you
deserve it, just that it is more certain than taxes.
(2) I started to put in something at the end of my comment about
how it could obviously be reducted ad absurdum, but couldn't find
elegant phrasing and figured no one would be that stupid anyway. I
thought better of you.
Jennifer|7.20.06 @ 1:01PM|#
Plan Colombia is financed with Jennifer's taxes, by paying
taxes you bare direct responsibility. It may be true that you are
powerless to end it, but it is certainly true that it is within
your power to withdraw your support.
So gee, Warren, to be considered the injured parties here all the
Lebanese civilians had to do was allow themselves to be imprisoned,
or killed by Hezbollah, en masse? They're not allowed to
do what I do, which is say "My government sucks but I still need to
try and live my life as best I can?" Lucky for me my country has an
army stronger than Lebanon's.
On an earlier thread I'd made another Colombia analogy: the cocaine
trade is tearing that country apart, and most of the cocaine demand
comes from the United States. So (if Colombia had the strength to
do so) would they be justified in bombing the hell out of the
United States because we haven't been able to eradicate the cocaine
cravings within our borders? Granted, our government's been
fighting the War on Drugs for more than twice my lifetime, but they
need to fight harder, dammit. And if Uncle Sam can't wipe
out the demand for cocaine here Colombia can pound our national
infrastructre into dust, and we deserve it for not having done more
to stop the cocaine trade, right?
Hell, I would say that the US trying to wipe out coke users is a
hell of a lot easier than Lebanon trying to wipe out
Hezbollah--very few cokeheads have things like rocket launchers and
ammunition for them.
By the way, did anyone answer Mo's earlier question at 10:27,
regarding how Lebanon is supposed to wipe out Hezbollah when Israel
couldn't do so in 20 years?
|7.20.06 @ 1:21PM|#
By the way, did anyone answer Mo's earlier question at
10:27, regarding how Lebanon is supposed to wipe out Hezbollah when
Israel couldn't do so in 20 years?
I, for one, don't know. But:
(1) Israel has not controlled Hezbollah's turf since at least 2000;
during that time Hez has grown much stronger.
(2) Neither Israel nor Lebanon need to "wipe out" Hez (desirable
though that would be). They just need to degrade its operational
effectiveness sufficiently that it isn't provoking this sort of
response.
(3) Even if Lebanon can't do diddly about Hez, how does that
actually change anything? Israel, like any state, will respond to
attacks across its borders. Lebanon's ineffectiveness may make us
feel more sorry for its residents, but that doesn't make Israel any
more (or less) culpable for its actions there.
On a different note, can anyone suggest good sources for
information about what targets Israel is REALLY hitting in Lebanon,
and why? I read anecdotes about dairy farms, etc., but rarely find
links. It seems to me entirely possible that Israel really is
hitting a lot of targets unrelated to Hezbollah, which would
justify the outcry from so many quarters. However, the outcry I've
seen appears largely disconnected from any real analysis of this
issue.
Warren|7.20.06 @ 1:41PM|#
So gee, Warren, to be considered the injured parties here
all the Lebanese civilians had to do was allow themselves to be
imprisoned, or killed by Hezbollah, en masse?
No no no, I should have been more clear. I agree with your position
it is wrong to drop bombs the Lebanese civilians. It is only your
assertion that you are guiltless over what your government does
that I wanted to address. That does not mean that I think you
should be held accountable in the same way that the people who
ordered and carried out reprehensible policies should.
|7.20.06 @ 2:10PM|#
"Democracy-whiskey-sexy diehards, never known for their
gallantry, will object that these two ain't all that. (A lie: The
one on the left is at least as presentable as any of the girls of
March.)"
Tim, you are funny man.
|7.20.06 @ 4:38PM|#
"Perhaps (but perhaps your example might inspire others), but
you're missing the larger point. Plan Colombia is financed with
Jennifer's taxes, by paying taxes you bare direct responsibility.
It may be true that you are powerless to end it, but it is
certainly true that it is within your power to withdraw your
support."
Oh come on Warren. Those of us being robbed are not in the wrong
here. (And I hate the phrase "paying taxes." I "pay" taxes for the
same reason I "pay" the robber: I don't like the consequences of
non-payment.) Now, if I voluntarily decided to finance a terrorist
organization that went around killing/injuring folks then that's
quite a different story.
Warren|7.20.06 @ 5:20PM|#
matt,
You make a good point.
But I can't quite concede that as citizens of the United States we
bear no culpability (whatsoever) for the actions of our government.
We all make choices and those choices carry consequences.
I "pay" taxes for the same reason I "pay" the robber: I don't
like the consequences of non-payment.
An alcoholic might say something similar as to why he keeps
drinking.
However, I agree without reservation, that ordinary citizens should
not be punished for the actions of their government. Furthermore I
believe that dropping bombs on people is a horrific act that even
the guilty seldom deserve. Bombing innocent people is
unconscionable.
|7.20.06 @ 5:39PM|#
"An alcoholic might say something similar as to why he keeps
drinking."
I don't really think that's a correct analogy since no one is
forcing an alcoholic to keep drinking. He's making an active,
uncoerced choice to consume what most of us would consider too much
alcohol. One can't say the same for taxes, regulations, unjust
laws, etc.
|7.20.06 @ 7:36PM|#
I am disappointed that a thread on babes so quickly degenerated
into all this lascivious geo-political yakkin'.
Oh, Akira expressed a similar lament. I'm with you, homey.
|7.20.06 @ 8:11PM|#
If a person did not vote for Hiz, then then they should blame
their Gov. for not controlling the crazies. But wherever they place
the blame..it should not be laid at the feet of Israel.
Hiz places their weapons in civilian areas. Israel dropped leaflets
telling people to leave. What more are they supposed to do--send a
personal escort to your home??
|7.21.06 @ 4:14AM|#
(1) Israel has not controlled Hezbollah's turf since at
least 2000; during that time Hez has grown much
stronger.
Yes, but even in 2000, Hiz was infinitely stronger than it was
before Israel's invasion in '82. Hiz didn't exist before then.
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