Heavily Armed Troops Crack Down on Utah Rave

Lots of links, including video, over at Sploid. UPDATE: Try this video link if the first one doesn't work.

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  • ||

    I havent watched the vid yet, working. Can anyone verify if it was actually troops? Cant be, can it?

  • ||

    Was this the kind of 'turning point' event you've been talking about, Jennifer?

    Funny how the retribution for a victimless crime is being set upon by dogs.

  • Matt Welch||

    Matt -- Following most of the links, they described uniformed "troops," including some in camoflauge, and the term "National Guard" was mentioned a lot, including at least one description of a vehicle with a National Guard logo on it. They used helicopters and tear gas and dogs and clubs.

  • ||

    I watched the quicktime. They're troops, and they've got dogs attackin' a dude. The troops came in and shut everything down. It's ugly.

    ...They apparently tear gassed the place!

    Surely there are Soccer Moms out there who are just as concerned about the military targeting America's youth as they are about the prospect of kids dancing. ...Even if dancing is a gateway to heavy petting.

  • ||

    video: http://cutup.org.nyud.net:8090/dir/fascism.mov

    They are wearing camouflage, and appear to be military.

    Even if they are just cops with extra gear, its a distinction without a difference: rifles, body armor, masks, etc. This is not what a civilian police force is supposed to look like.

  • ||

    Rich Ard--

    Haven't seen the video, so I don't know. I was thinking of a turning point where a lot of people who don't use drugs, and don't like those who do, nonetheless are adversely affected by the WOD (as when commenter Phil mentioned how ticked off his wife was when she had trouble buying cold medicine because of the anti-meth hysteria).

    Not that it matters, but were these ravers actually selling drugs, or were they just dancing? Was this a drug rave, or just a big dance party?

  • ||

    They hate us for our freedoms. And we hate us for our freedoms, too.

  • ||

    There's a fair amount of authoritarian police state stuff you can get away with, but you can still cross a line, especially when you're not dealing with "urban" demographics (like a rave in Utah). Sounds like someone got a little carried away. There will be lawsuits over this until the Rapture. I always wonder what they're thinking when they pull some stunt like this. At some point, such lawsuits will be illegal, but not yet.

    The police are so militarized at this point that they often look military: armor, assault weapons. The militarization of domestic law enforcement is another great thing about the War on Drugs.

  • Matt Welch||

    You'll recall a couple weeks back the Czech Republic's very governance structure was shaken to its core after a similar militaristic crackdown on ravers in the countryside. It will be interesting, though not surprising, to note the same thing not happening here.

  • ||

    Matt Welch--

    I don't recall that at all. Was it a Hit and Run post? If so, what was the title and date?

  • ||

    Jennifer,

    Watch the video, and wonder what the hell they need with all that gear. Whatever happened to flak jackets and black swat helmets? These guys looked like the russian troops from Red Dawn.

  • ||

    Matt,

    I have to ask - I remember the Czech story well (also accompanied by terrifying pictures), but did it actually have an actual, quantifiable effect on the government?

    If you read the newspaper "official story," the Utah SNAFU was nothing more than the cops busting up an illegal party with lots of drugs, and "one DJ" said people were being harrassed. This will certainly not be a tipping point, because Americans hate techno and anything to do with raves. I think Europeans care a lot more about their freedom to bump n' grind than we Americans. I can't imagine many of us outside of the Paris Hilton set who would be in their element in Ibiza.

  • ||

    Wait until this makes the news, and an iconic image from the route becomes established in the public's mind.

    Then print up tee shirts with that picture, and the words "They Hate Us for Our Freedom"

  • ||

    Matt - no shit. This is another great example of how the drug war fucks up everything. And it will be another example, I'm sure, of how folks in this country don't give a fuck that their rights have been buried deep into a shit hole.

    Look, I know there's drugs at rave parties, I'm an (ex-)raver myself. And sure, there's a lot of young'uns there - young enough for me to cast an unapproving eye from time to time. But is that an excuse to throw someone to the ground, punched and kicked by 4+ big, heavily armed and armoured gov't thugs? And setting the dogs on these kids? WTF?

    I heard one of the kids remark on the film, something about "they've got guns". Well, I think it's getting to be time for us miscreant, paranoid, gun-toting, freedom-loving, freaks to start asking ourselves just what it's gonna take before we've gotta do something.

    I'm just sayin'...

  • ||

    David--

    I don't have to wonder at all. I've said before, the reason the cops have been militarizing themselves is only distantly related to the WOD--it's because you need military gear to fight The Enemy, and in their eyes all non-cops (a.k.a. "civilians") are The Enemy.

  • ||

    Will this have the same effect as the images of police brutality during the civil rights riots?

    Probably not, but one can hope.

  • ||

    That video is sickening. It's a bunch of fucking stormtroopers breaking up a dance party. I mean, what in the fuck? We really are not far from Robocop-style law enforcement.

  • Matt Welch||

    Jennifer -- here ya go. And Randolph, it had enough effect that there were large daily protests (attended by Vaclav Havel), sharply critical comments from Czech President Vaclav Klaus, and various official inquiries, if nothing else. I imagine (without having checked again) that this might be a tipping point away from the governing Social Democrats, who reacted quite poorly to the whole thing. So I don't know if anyone got fired, but it was the story of the month in Prague.

  • ||

    Matt, thanks for the info.
    To say what I was trying to say earlier in a more eloquent fashion, I don't think anyone in America will get upset over a bunch of "druggies" at some sort of tribal "dance party" getting "what they deserved." In fact, a lot of parents who are worried about their kids getting "meth mouth" or succumbing to the scourge of "the marijuana" will be reassured that the police are doing their jobs.

    Ouch. I think I pulled my scare quote muscle.

  • ||

    David,
    Well the local law folks have to spend that homeland security money on something, you know, to fight terrorists in the Utah canyons and stuff.

  • ||

    Ravers=Drugs=Funding for Terrorism=Terrorism=Osama Bin Laden, therefore:
    Ravers=Osama Bin laden

    Come on people! What? Do you hate America or something?!

  • ||

    I think the funny-as-hell part is that all the parents who say "Meth-head punk kids! Serves 'em right!" were the Hippies who got their own heads busted in the 60's, but think that this is different, somehow.

    Even funnier is that these kids will grow up to be their parents, just like their parents did.

  • ||

    I've been reading and occassionally responding to posts here for a few months, but I don't know if I'll continue. What's the point of being part of a community where the response to U.S. citizens literally being terrorized by their government is
    sarcastic jokes instead of attempting to organize and fight back?

    Is anyone out there working to protect liberty, rather than just wanting to be informed about losing it?

  • The Wine Commonsewer||

    Jesus Chrysler, this is truly scary stuff.

  • ||

    The video link doesn't work anymore - I really want to see it. Just reading the accounts is turning my stomach.

  • ||

    Rhywun,

    Try this:

    http://cutup.org/dir/fascism.mov

    I would link it but always botch the tags in these threads.

  • ||

    Luisa,

    Organizing how? Voting does't seem to work(as the vast majority sees nothing wrong with stuff), non-violent protests don't seem to work, and I don't think that most of the people who post here are violent protest types. Sarcasm and hope for a large scale change in popular attitudes are what we have left.

  • ||

    Well, I guess Big Brother was tired of hearing how the "war on drugs" was an inappropriate metaphor, and decide to put some teeth into the phrase.

  • ||

    Luisa,
    On irregular poster to another. I think it's been decided that Laviathan's gotten pretty big, and that most attempts to fight it are suicide. Posters come here more to console eachother than organize any revolution.

  • ||

    Is anyone really shocked that this happened in the Theocracy of Utah?

    Meanwhile, much larger and more decadent fun happens routinely next door in Nevada. All is not lost, is all I'm saying.

    My advice to Utah youths: "Celebrate federalism and cross the border. Abandon the beehive. Don't get married to your neighbor at age 19. Caffeine won't send you to hell. You look really silly riding a bicycle with a suit on. Have you ever actually read that book? I mean, really."

    I guess I have a lot of advice for Utah youths.

  • ||

    I am glad I moved out of that God-forsaken state when I did. Haven't watched the video yet, but will soon.

    We can only hope that the "establishment's" stupidity will backfire on them someday.

    *crosses fingers*

  • ||

    It's generally a good idea to download and archive stuff like this...

  • ||

    Sarcasm and hope for a large scale change in popular attitudes are what we have left.

    They can have my sarcasm when the pry it from my cold, dead hand.

  • ||

    Luisa,

    As David mentioned, what are we going to do? Of the dozen or so people I know who are aware of the Utah problem, 9 of them shrug and joke because they are light years away from the problem, just as we're light years away from overseas problems: "Can't affect me, those involved must have brought their pain on themselves. If they didn't bring it on themselves, they were just in the wrong place at the wrong time. Cops overreact, we see stories to that effect 6.5 times a year, which is well within the threshhold of tolerance for police abuse."

    We're an enormous country, philosophically and demographically. One incident in Utah does not an Apocalypse make. I'm not being flippant. The microscope that H&R puts on liberty-devouring incidents is good. Someone has to do it. But I'm not about to organize a politically and personally exhaustive movement, or write my Congressfolk, or start wearing Ravers Rule t-shirts because of one bad thing that happened in one place, which we later consumed as sensation-mongers as if it spelled our national doom.

    If nothing else, Americans (at least those of my acquaintance) have a decent sense of perspective. Imagine if, in the span of, say, a week, we heard 10 reports of military-style crackdowns on U.S. dance parties. Now, THAT would awaken the seemingly dormant liberty-lover in even the most apathetic couch potato.

    So, what do you want? That we should toss our H&R bookmarks in the trash bin, hit the streets, and bring down "The Man?" Your provocative appeal to the activist in us all doesn't bring any of us closer to a solution to the problem. The Utah incident is a symptom, to be sure, of totalitarian values meeting presumed tolerance for expanded police powers meeting the systemic enablement of such powers meeting the American indifference to stronger governments eventually eclipsing personal liberty.

    What's your plan for stopping the tide? If it's a good one, I'd support it.

  • ||

    How the hell do a bunch of kids dancing constitute a reason to bring in the Guard? As for the "OMG, But there's drugs at raves!" crowd, a bunch of e-tards armed with glowsticks aren't a huge threat to national security, methinks.

  • ||

    So what's next, Burning Man?

  • ||

    andy-

    A bunch of kids dancing do not constitute a reason to bring in the Guard. It doesn't matter what glowing accessories they use. And no one suggested they are a threat to national security. This kind of leap-frog hysteria is why the thrust of this thread is meaningless.

    kmw-

    No, Burning Man is not next, and you are intelligent enough to know that. Neither are the bare-tittied bike activists who demonstrate on my street twice a year. Or the bare-assed, heavily medicated charity runners who run a few miles from my house once a year. Or the pot-smokers in the middle of the street at any number of street fairs in my town. California is not Utah.

  • ||

    Mr. Lynch,

    "This kind of leap-frog hysteria is why the thrust of this thread is meaningless"

    What "leap frog hysteria?" Do you actually think I think they're ANY threat to national security?

  • ||

    andy-

    By your words, I can only assume that you think SOMEONE thinks they are a threat to national security. I didn't suggest you did, but your remark begs the question, "Who does?" The answer is no one, save the drugs-at-raves crowd you mention. Who are they (posters here? some political force? the "troops" involved? their commanding officers?)? Guess I'm not sure why you'd mention a body of people who freak out about drugs at raves without attributing to them any identity worth debating.

  • ||

    Ok, Luisa, here's a suggestion. I notice at the bottom of the page on Sploid there are "sponsored links" where you can buy used helicopters. Let's hold a bake sale, buy our own damn helicopter, and fight back!

    Oops, I think that may have denigrated into another sarcastic comment. Sorry about that.

    Seriously: as Randolph Bourne said, the ironist is not ironical because he cares too little, but rather because he cares too much. All of us would gladly support something that had a reasonable chance of succeeding, but we're not suicidal.

  • The Wine Commonsewer||

    All of us would gladly support something that had a reasonable chance of succeeding, but we're not suicidal

    Not D, perfectly said.

  • ||

    Start shooting back or you deserve to be a slave.

  • ||

    "By your words, I can only assume that you think SOMEONE thinks they are a threat to national security. I didn't suggest you did, but your remark begs the question, "Who does?"

    I'm aware that no one here likely is among that crowd (save maybe our resident troll(s), Jane/Juanita." I was directing that statement to the people who do think that. (BTW, there's a lot of them.)

    "Guess I'm not sure why you'd mention a body of people who freak out about drugs at raves without attributing to them any identity worth debating."

    This identity is millions and millions of Americans. I'm quite pessimistic as to the future of civil liberties in our country.

  • ||

    "Start shooting back or you deserve to be a slave."


    Lead the way, general! :)

  • ||

    Saw the video, and honestly couldn't make out any dogs. Yes the cops or whoever the hell they were looked scary, but they probably don't know what the hell else to do in BFE with all of the money they've gotten to fight the GWOT. I'd like to see more evidence that this really is an incident that is truly beyond the pale. Of course, I realize that the drug war itself is far, far outside the realm of logic and reason, but is there any HARD evidence yet that this incident is way beyond the usual manner in which the drug war is prosecuted? And please spare me the "not all ravers are druggies" BS. I was one myself, and necked plenty of e's right along with all of my other 17 year old friends.

  • ||

    I believe the technical term for the guys in the cammo, hidden faces, and body armor is pussy. Each and every one, pussy to the core. Prove me wrong fellas.

    If this is still a constitutional republic the unit(s) responsible for that sad joke will be disbanded and off the public payroll by Friday.

  • ||

    but is there any HARD evidence yet that this incident is way beyond the usual manner in which the drug war is prosecuted?

    dpotts,

    If this is standard procedure rather than an isolated incident, wouldn't that be even worse? To me, it seems that SWAT team raids are more commonplace these days.

    Call me silly, but I thought SWAT units were for violent situations(hostage crises, armed robberies, etc. )rather than a tool for crowd management.

  • ||

    This doesn't change anything until many responsible adults (have kids, own house, no felonies) know someone that shouldn't have been tear-gassed AND decide they've had enough unfairness for one year.

    Andrew Lynch said it well 'Imagine if, in the span of, say, a week, we heard 10 reports of military-style crackdowns on U.S. dance parties. Now, THAT would awaken the seemingly dormant liberty-lover in even the most apathetic couch potato.'

    What I do find interesting is the similarity of this agression to Czech-Tek AND a current national meth-crackdown (I don't know id this is real), AND the extradition pledge of Marc Emery.

    Ok, so not 10 things but you can imagine the Drugs are Bad idea is going to get very intense before it intersects with everyones life. Of course, its a matter of faith, to say people will say no more WosD. People of the other faith don't have such a moment they can look forward to.

  • ||

    Got off work and finally saw the video. These guys can all go to hell. And there was a dog on the kid they were holding down. This is why everyone nedds to buy a video camera, how long before we can buy disposable vieo cameras that automatically upload to the internet so they can't be confiscated (speaking as a former college kid who's had my funsavers confiscated)?

  • ||

    Jeff A. Taylor-

    Sigh. I'm starting to feel like joe, and I'm not sure I like the sensation.

    "If this is still a constitutional republic the unit(s) responsible for that sad joke will be disbanded and off the public payroll by Friday."

    No due process occurs that quickly. We can't even "process" killers that quickly. Utah tolerates activities which the more liberal among us would classify as violations of (or more softly, offenses against) basic liberty. Is this a surprise? When did we wake up and squeal, "How could this happen...in Utah!?"

    Does the "constitutional republic" of which you speak magically trump local enforcement at a function peopled by folks who were breaking laws we don't happen to like? Stay out of Utah, that's what I say.

    dpotts-

    "To me, it seems that SWAT team raids are more commonplace these days."

    Are they? Or is the IDEA of "more commonplace" raids just fodder for the sexy Revolution machine? I'm not convinced that walking down the street high on e or weed is going to bring Blackhawks down on my head.

  • ||

    Peter Tisserand-

    You're in the same camp as Luisa. Grand ideals, no venue for realization. I go back to my original question? Why should any of us get verklempt about an overbaked raid in Utah? I'm a Californian, what do I care? Those "15-30" year olds elected to do something in their politically conservative state that would -- duh -- incur the wrath of its enforcement machine.

    Should I care because first it's Utah, next it's California? Or, as kmw said, "So what's next, Burning Man?" Or should I be reaching out to my oppressed brethren in a lesser state, revealing to them the power of the resistance? With so many more important battles to fight, why spend our time on a Jerry Bruckheimer drug bust in the wasteland? (Yes, I just made a value judgment.)

  • ||

    Well, glad there is no murder, rape, child molestation, theft, battery, or assault in Utah.

  • ||

    "I believe the technical term for the guys in the cammo, hidden faces, and body armor is pussy. Each and every one, pussy to the core. Prove me wrong fellas."

    Yeah. Seriously. Rave kids? There probably wasn't a single firearm on anyone there.

  • ||

    It's dejavu all over again. I don't know what the reason for the Czech raid but the pretext for the Utah raid was they didn't have a permit.

  • ||

    Before the day ends, here's a toast....

    * raises cup *
    Bob Moog... thanks for the Love.

  • ||

    help me out here people. isin't it illegal to use the military to enforce domestic law? Or am I just unbeleivably naive?

  • ||

    That's a good idea about contacting local or even national media outlets. I'm not a news junky, but I haven't yet seen any mention of the Utah raid on my local television stations or on network television. Might have missed it, though.

    "Constitutional Republic"? Jeez! I don't think we have actually had THAT since before the days of Lincoln!

    As for the troops: Since when do soldiers get to wear masks? These guys are the "secret police" and they are a bunch of cowards. Just as cowardly as the islamist terrorists that our "fearless leader" is always going on about.

  • ||

    OK, I vented in writing and now asked for ideas to follow through, which I wasn't prepared to do. So here's my shot at some constructive ideas based on about ten minutes of though--hopefully it can lead to better ideas (H&R staffers, any chance of an action-oriented thread?).

    1. Write a letter about this to publications that are read by mainstream readers in a way that can nudge some of them, and try to get specific reporters to investigate and cover this. Point out the difference between first-hand accounts and the pathetic regurgitation of military propaganda in the Salt Lake Tribune.

    2. Get active with a local Bill of Rights Defense Committee chapter. From my perception, they've had more impact than any organization on helping stop Patriot Act II, even if the bulk of "Patriot 1" is on the verge of being renewed/made permanent.

    3. Read up on Secure Flight (secondaryscreening.org is a great resource) and spread the alarm-- this is the pathway to unprecedented gov't surveillance -- and there are compelling arguments against its effectiveness even for those who have no passion for freedom (see reclaimdemocracy.org/civil_rights/ has some excellent material. Supporting groups like BORDC and Reclaim Democracy that defend freedom without the leftist baggage of ACLU might also be a good step.

    4. The folks who say "California is not Utah" are only kidding themselves. I think we're nearing a police state far faster than most of us are willing to admit and averting it will indeed require taking some risks, whether physical, social, our jobs or otherwise. We need to have the courage to be unpopular, to irritate people, etc.

    My ten minutes are up. Hope that's useful at least to start others ideas flowing.

  • G||

    This was a letter I wrote to the author of one of the newpaper articles that was not particularly skeptical of the amount of force used against the ravers.

    "I wonder if you had taken to opportunity to watch some of the video of the police "busting up" the rave in Spanish Fork Canyon. I have included a link to a site with the video. I hope you take the time to watch it. I am an Eagle Scout and have always taken pride in being an American. I have never been to a rave myself but no amount of drug use justifies military tactics taken against American citizens as was evidenced by the video of this party. I am beside myself with anger and disgust at the general lack of vocalized disdain for military tactics being utilized against peaceful Americans. I hope you may take a more critical tone in discussions of this matter. I do not want to see my country turned into a state where we exist at the whim of a militarized police force. We should expect a less hostile stance from our police. One can be forceful without treating Americans like third world hoodlums."

    Its a little Jingoistic but maybe it will appeal.

  • Windypundit||

    What gets me is that the cops are wearing masks.

    I can remember the first time I read about cops wearing masks during raids. It was back in the 80s. Armed men in masks taking people away. That was something they did in communist countries and petty dictatorships. I couldn't believe this was happening in my country.

    Masked gunmen sent by the government to intimidate, arrest, and disperse a crowd of people. I still can't quite believe that's what I'm seeing.

  • raymond||

    Police want parents of teenagers to know the dangers of illegal, clandestine rave parties. Gilbert said that in addition to heavy drug use, raves attract sexual assaults, violence, theft and promote unsafe driving under the influence of drugs or alcohol.

    And that's only the cops.

    (btw: Haven't Americans learned _anything_ from the Whisky Rebellion?)

  • ||

    Wow Andrew. I sure hope my freedom is never in your hands. It's one thing to agree with what was done, as fucked up as that is, but just not caring one way or the other because it was a bunch of punk kids in the middle of nowhere? I think that's the scariest sentiment I've read in a long time.

  • Sean Healy||

    Slightly off-topic:
    Anyone else note the cognitive dissonance between wanting no restrictions on the right to bear arms and decrying the development of heavily armed cops?

  • ||

    Sean--
    What's the dissonance between wanting increased rights for the people and decreased powers of government?

  • ||

    Fark has posted the story. If you have a masochistic urge to depress the hell out of yourself, read the comment board:

    http://forums.fark.com/cgi/fark/comments.pl?IDLink=1633086

  • ||

    I just read more of that Fark board. In addition to the usual "That's what you get for breaking the law" arguments, here's an explanation of why it was GOOD that the cops tried to turn off or confiscate any tapes of the event:

    it's been shown that people looking to provoke an incident are more likely to do so it a camera is pointed at them. No camera, and there's less glory for them. This is a fairly standard operating procedure for LEOs. Also, by seizing the cameras they may obtain video evidence for criminal prosecution, but that may not be such a standard policy. Making them put the camera down actually increases the safety of both the officers and the civilians.

    Jesus wept, and I will too.

  • Rodney||

    �OK you kids, put your hands in the air�
    �now wave �em �round like ya� jus� don�t care! Whoop, whoop!

    But seriously, don't move or we'll blow your freakin' heads off.�

  • ||

    Stuff like this only encourages my daydreams of moving to Alaska and living on an armed compound.

    I'm becoming more and more sympathetic to the Free State Project with every passing day.

  • ||

    Anyone else note the cognitive dissonance between wanting no restrictions on the right to bear arms and decrying the development of heavily armed cops?

    No, but I can appreciate the irony in the police needing more military-style weapons against public with less chance of resistance.

    Over on the Agitator, Radley Balko notes that the excuse for this raid was that the promoters permit didn't allow for the number of attendees. They had all the other permits. He rightly asks when a missing permit because justification for a SWAT raid?

  • ||

    I'll wager that this was seen by the jackboots as a good opportunity for the troops to practice their crowd-control techniques. That's why you saw such an overwhelming response.

    The people who were used as unwilling training manequins should go after those bastards for damages.

    If it was indeed critical to stop the party, I have to imagine that this could have been handled by having a small contingent of cops turning off the power source for the music/lighting; with a larger number of cops standing by to control the crowd if they reacted badly to the end of the party. If the cops/Guard are too stupid to use more subtlety than the 1st Armored Cav to accomplish their missions, then they need to be replaced.

  • ||

    If the cops/Guard are too stupid to use more subtlety than the 1st Armored Cav to accomplish their missions, then they need to be replaced.

    "Subtlety" is only viewed as desirable when you're trying to solve a problem with minimal harm to innocent bystanders. Do you actually think that's what the SWAT team wanted to accomplish here?

  • ||

    Slightly off-topic:
    Anyone else note the cognitive dissonance between wanting no restrictions on the right to bear arms and decrying the development of heavily armed cops?


    If an ill-trained stumblefuck cop can be trusted with a fully-automatic rifle, then I think the government should have no problem letting citizens who often shoot competitively on a regular basis as well as practicing as often as possible own them.

    Seriously. Here in Colorado Springs a couple of months back the cops were called out when five bison escaped from a trailer. Bison are huge animals, nearly 1,000 lbs.

    The cops fired 120 rounds, and missed with more than a handful of them, sending the rounds sailing into a couple of nearby houses and cars.

    That's right. they engaged animals the size of a compact car at close range, and fucking missed. Even a beginning Service Rifle competitor shooting an AR15 should be capable of keeping 10 rounds fired in 70 seconds on a standard SR5 28"x28" target at 200 yards.

    But then again, I guess I'm just laboring under a big ol' heaping pile of cognitive dissonance.

  • ||

    Christ, mediageek. I can shoot better than that when I'm blindfolded and stoned.

  • ||

    If you can't hit a bison with a Bushmaster, you shouldn't be trusted with a fucking hammer.

  • ||

    Yeah, but the true travesty of the whole thing was the official investigation where it was concluded that the cops did a fine job and made no mistakes.

  • ||

    mediageek, that would be what, outcome based bison control? As long as the bison are dead and the officers feel good about themselves, what does it matter how many rounds were expended? I'm just glad they weren't after feral cats because then the whole area would have to be evacutated because of the lead contamination.

  • ||

    G,

    Great letter!

  • Stiff Mittens||

    To anyone who takes the position of: Oh well, this is just one isolated incident of overzealous cops in a very conservative area overreacting to some misbehaving kids and it probably isn't sufficient cause to raise the minuteman alarm bell.

    Didn't your mom ever scold you with the time-worn "do you have to wait until someone gets seriously hurt before you realize that it's not safe to play in the junkyard?"

    Now, I'm not advocating an alarmist, reactionary campaign of retribution (that's the government's job). Some might say you have to pick your battles, but do we have to keep letting things slide until it gets so bad that full-scale armed insurrection is the only way out from under the boot of the oppressors?

    People should make a fuss about this raid, if only to make the rest of the people aware of what happened so they can be on the look out for similar attacks on their own drug-enhanced, hormone-pumping, laser-light dry-hump fest. When someone gets their civil rights violated, or even just a little mussed, then they have a perfect right to cry foul as loud as they can. And anyone who hears their cry and agrees with it should be encouraged to echo it.

    Remember that we (the miscreants and malcontents) aren't a massive, highly organized force. But recent history has shown us that guerilla tactics and swarming behavior can be very effective against such a force. No, this event in Utah doesn't call for an all-out frontal assault on the establishment (some might argue that any such an assault is foolhardy and doomed under any circumstance), but it does demand a response, and a lot of smaller scale responses to power can be just as powerful and effective (perhaps moreso). If every time a minor injustice is recognized by the people and an attempt is made to combat it, that draws some amount of energy and attention from the establishment. If this happens often enough, the establishment gets bogged down trying to defensively swat flies and is unable to focus the bulk of its power on its offensive agenda.

    On the othe hand, reason and sober reflection are a good thing. So, yes, hysteria and panic should be avoided, but not at all costs. This is one instance where erring on the side of caution may actually undermine the overall effort. If someone goes off half-cocked, oh well. As long as they don't waste too much time and energy, it's all good. Just make your case, play your cards, whatever. Then move one to the next issue.

  • ||

    So imo, Luisa:

    If you wanted to help, the help would be spreading the word, getting the attention of othersto watch what is going on. Organizing for somehow someway to get all the visual media that is most likely out there from those who could take pictures without their phones of video being taken away and having that put on display. Then if there is a trial follow the trial bang your pot. I don't believe in people who say they have no choice but to not do nothing. If everyone said that when they had no rights then we'd all be working 16 hour days and we'd still have official color-based segregated schools.
    Grab a pot and spoon and make some noise.

  • ||

    This was psychological warfare. "Hey you potential protesters, check this out, are you SURE you want to come to the protest now?? Yeah, didn't think so."

    The puppeteers orchestrated this in hopes of preventing protests at Bush & Co.'s upcoming visit to Utah.

    It appears their strategy backfired. The protests have gained permanent traction.

  • Sean Healy||

    What I meant about cognitive dissonance is that American cops have historically been armed because the citizenry is. I'm generally sympathetic to libertarian reasoning, although not terribly persuaded by advocates of widespread, unrestricted ownership of firearms, but also recognize that people whose job it is to enforce the law where many people are armed might want to enjoy force superiority. That seems reasonable to me in a democracy where the citizens grant powers of law enforcement to police forces. This isn't to say the Utah police didn't use excessive force, just that it shouldn't surprise supporters of personal firearm ownership that cops want body armor. Where I live now (Ireland) the relationship between the (unarmed) people and the (unarmed) police is generally non-antagonistic. It's nicer to be liberated from guns than it is to be liberated by them, IMO.

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