Lawn Chair Minutemen

Matt Welch | April 4, 2005

In case you don't have the joy of being involuntarily signed up to a half-dozen immigration-obsessed e-mail lists, you may have missed last week's "Minuteman Project," in which a would-be militia of volunteer border-enforcers and Lou Dobbs enthusiasts headed down to the Arizona-Mexico border to Protect Our Sovereignty against illegal Mexicans. Lefty journalist Marc Cooper joined them, and filed a withering report. Excerpt:

At two Minuteman rallies staged today in front of the Naco and Douglas stations of the Border Patrol, there were only about 150 participants. While much hot air has been blown on both sides about these Minutemen exercising the Second Amendment i.e. carrying guns, the overwhelming majority of them are armed only with lawn chairs. Indeed, those drawn to this event (apart from being about 99.9% white) are disproportionaly aged and retired and are no more fit to conduct "civilian patrols" than they are set to run a marathon.

After today's rallies, I expect that a hundred or so might actually spend a few hours (sitting in lawn chairs) on the border in the next few days. In the end, I would be surprised if more than a few dozen actually go out on "patrol" with the hard-core organizers. [...]

During today's gatherings, the Minutemen chanted "Viva La Migra" and chanted "Thank You, Border Patrol!" But the Border Patrol took extra steps to deploy an added number of official spokespersons outside the two stations where the rallies took place. The Border Patrol was emphatic in rejecting the "support" offered by the Minuteman Project. "They are a natural hindrance to us," said Supervisory Agent Jose Maheda. "We don't support them and they are making our jobs more difficult."

Comments

|4.4.05 @ 11:01AM|#

Who doesn't see a horrible incident coming out this?

|4.4.05 @ 11:05AM|#

I wonder if Lonewacko is one of those "minutemen?"

|4.4.05 @ 11:23AM|#

Nothing like having someone looking over your shoulder to see if you actually are doing your job to make a job "more difficult."

|4.4.05 @ 11:25AM|#

Sounds a lot like the aging hippies who had the leisure time to protest the war and Bush in the past few years.

Maybe there should be a law that says only those NOT receiving a check fromt he governmetn are allowed to join protests like this one and the anti war ones? I betcha membership would drop to nothing.

|4.4.05 @ 11:27AM|#

"'They are a natural hindrance to us,' said Supervisory Agent Jose Maheda. 'We don't support them and they are making our jobs more difficult.'"

The Border Service has been infiltrated!!!

|4.4.05 @ 11:30AM|#

I saw on the news today they managed to "catch" (see: "observe and contact Border Patrol officials") 18 immigrants in the act of crossing the border.

Incidentally, are they protecting our borders from terrorists? or protecting American-born dishwashers, maids and farm workers from have their jobs stolen?

If the former, they're probably not very effective...if the latter, they're too late.

|4.4.05 @ 11:30AM|#

Minuteman spokesman: "Gawdammit, my ancestors didn't come here without proper documentation so that their children could grow up in a land that lets people enter without proper documentation!"

Meanwhile, Native Americans observe this group and mutter to themselves, "Wish we had thought of this."

|4.4.05 @ 11:32AM|#

Incidentally, that "jobs stolen" bit in my previous post was a bit of silliness.

You can't "steal" jobs from people who don't want them...

|4.4.05 @ 11:34AM|#

It makes the border patrol's job more difficult because now they have more people they have to account for on the border. Anytime a sensor goes off they have to check whether it's an illegal immigrant or just a minuteman on patrol (one that's possibly armed too... that's a fun person to run into in the dark.)

|4.4.05 @ 11:42AM|#

As far as we know, not one terrorist has ever crossed the border illegally.

New regulations, aside from being remarkably difficult to enforce, seem to be best at catching 1. Activist nuns
2. Democratic congresspersons
3. Foreign journalists on journalist visas
4. People with Indian names mistaken for Arabic ones
5. And people with "names similar to those already on the TSA watch list".

Further proof that activism today is founded almost completely on a combination of hyper-emotional fervor and a lack of common sense.

|4.4.05 @ 11:48AM|#

If those sensors work so well, then how come 2/3rds of Michoacan is living in LA?

Illegals do perform jobs that Americans don't want. But they also take jobs that Americans used to want, like skilled construction jobs and; um, my job.

MP|4.4.05 @ 11:48AM|#

When was activism not "founded almost completely on a combination of hyper-emotional fervor and a lack of common sense"?

|4.4.05 @ 11:50AM|#

Wow, you're saying a leftie journalist spent time with a right wing group and found it easy to mock them? Get out of town! Lefties never mock what doesn't fit their worldview!

Better to hear it from the Minutemen's mouths themselves, before ye judge.

http://lashawnbarber.com/archives/2005/03/15/interviewi/#more-1028

|4.4.05 @ 11:56AM|#

Don Mynack: Any cause that Lashawn and Lou Dobbs can get behind deserves no mockery!

|4.4.05 @ 11:56AM|#

MP,

I have absolutely no comeback for that.

I'd like to think that SOME activism arises out of sincere and credible underpinnings...I just can't think of any.

John,

Sorry about your job...it's inevitable that there is a "bubbling up" effect to letting immigrant take the shit jobs. They'll eventually start taking other and better jobs too.

In any case, I didn't start this...I'm just making an observations.

If it counts for something, I sincerely wish you well.

|4.4.05 @ 11:57AM|#

I never said the sensors work well, I was just saying the Minutemen's presence could be as much as a hindrance as it is a help.

|4.4.05 @ 12:02PM|#

THEY TUK ER JIBS!

It seems just a tad ironic, that these lazy slackabouts have the time to trapse on down to the border and lay around in lawn chairs, all in support of the goal of making sure that Mexicans don't immigrate and "take er jibs"...however, perhaps if these lawn-chair "vigilantes" were actually working instead of galavanting around Texas, then maybe their employers would not be so willing to hire a harder-working immigrant in the first place.

The Wine Commonsewer|4.4.05 @ 12:07PM|#

Hey Matt, I here your stories were as good as your piano playing. :-)

The Wine Commonsewer|4.4.05 @ 12:08PM|#

To clarify, I mean over the weekend at the Ritz Carlton shindig.

|4.4.05 @ 12:12PM|#

MADPAD

HOPE YOU ARE NOT EATING OUT IN RESTUARANTS BECAUSE YOUR FAVORITE UNDOCUMENTED WORKER (ILLEGAL)DISHWASHER,FOOD HANDLER,COOK HAS A 6 IN 10 CHANCE OF HAVING HEPATITIS A,TB. NOT TO MENTION BODY LICE AND OTHER "SPECIAL SAUCES" THAT THEY PUT IN ELITIST GRINGO MEALS. THERE IS NO REAL MEDICAL INFRASTRUCTURE IN MEXICO, EVEN IF THERE WAS, NOT MANY COULD AFFORD IT. AS FOR HYGEINE THE VAST MAJORITY OF POOR MEXICAN HOUSEHOLDS HAVE NO PLUMBING. MAKES FOR GREAT HYGENIC PRACTICES HUH? MAYBE YOU SHOULD SPEND SOME TIME IN MEXICO AND EDUCATE YOURSELF. GO HELP THEM FIX THEIR SOCIAL PROBLEMS BEFORE THEY BANKRUPT MORE OF OUR BODER CITIES.

|4.4.05 @ 12:13PM|#

Damn, I was waiting for the dawgs at reason to finally mention this, I especially expected to hear something when the head of MS-13 (allegedly) issued instructions to go to the border and teach the minutemen a lesson! Can you imagine!?! All in all this seems like it's just going to be a lot of hype and hot air and nothing is actually going to happen. I think internet forums are going to be the most affected by this, as both Free Republic and Democratic Underground have seen a lot of flame wars regarding this topic, will I be adding reason to that list? Let the flame wars begin!

|4.4.05 @ 12:14PM|#

Thanks for your concern! I did "land on my feet" after all. The Invisible Hand really does work, and all that.

I also suspect that a lot of the Minutemen live near me in the Intermountain West. I would rather have them 700 miles and a Grand Canyon away from me than near me.

Evan, the article (if you can believe it) states that most of the Minutemen are retirees and those that aren't have bigger problems in retaining employment than competition from illegal aliens.....

Another funny thing about the Minutemen incident is that the Mexican government is condemning possible abuses of its citizens by Minutemen.

This is the same corrput Mexican government whose officials regularly rob, rape and murder Central Americans trying to sneak into Mexico.

|4.4.05 @ 12:14PM|#

HEY MATT,
WAIT TIL THEY START INVADING YOUR COUNTRY. HOW ABOOT THAT, EH.

|4.4.05 @ 12:15PM|#

Go get em MinuteMen. Open border libertarians are loons.

There's nothing cheap about immigrant labor

|4.4.05 @ 12:26PM|#

Though I am a fan of more liberal immigration, it's funny to hear federal employees whine about citizens watching them do their jobs. Aw, poor babies.

I can just tell that something really, really bad is going to happen as a result of this. I'm not sure who will start it or who will die, but some people are going to wind up in body bags.

Hopefully I'll turn out to be wrong.

Finally, the Best Post Before 10 AM Pacific Award goes to:

Minuteman spokesman: "Gawdammit, my ancestors didn't come here without proper documentation so that their children could grow up in a land that lets people enter without proper documentation!"

Meanwhile, Native Americans observe this group and mutter to themselves, "Wish we had thought of this."

Comment by: SPD at April 4, 2005 11:30 AM

|4.4.05 @ 12:31PM|#

Lawn chairs and guns?

Why am I suddenly thinking of that scene early on in DAWN OF THE DEAD (the original version, not the pitiful remake) where the backwoods folk are sitting in lawn chairs in the middle of the field guzzling beers and watching each other pick off zombies? Anyone remember that?

I'm all for people owning guns and defending themselves, but something about this makes me wary.

|4.4.05 @ 12:32PM|#

I saw on the news today they managed to "catch" (see: "observe and contact Border Patrol officials") 18 immigrants in the act of crossing the border.

That's all they ever said they intended to do. Nothing wrong with having more eyes on the ground for the most violated stretch of border.

The Wine Commonsewer|4.4.05 @ 12:34PM|#

According to my local rag, The Riverside Press Enterprise, there were "hundreds" of these guys in Tombstone over the weekend and it made front page news. They weren't all old and they certainly weren't hippie burnouts. Quite a bit different picture than Cooper paints.

We can laugh till the cows come home but this is not an isolated bunch of wackos. A huge majority of the population of the southwest are pissed about perceived problems associated with illegals. Not to mention that most anglos assume that most latinos are illegal (which isn't true).

As for the Border Patrol, of course they don't like civilian patrols. Their PROFESSIONALS man.

I'm trying not to froth at the mouth like a mad dog here but the BP is pretty near the bottom of my list of pond scum. I LOVED THAT PART IN MEN IN BLACK.......

It's government-made but the problems at that part of the border are enormous. The trespassing, trashing of private property, and crime are very real to those who live in the outlands near the border.

When one rancher got sick of the problem, the family and friends took up target practice near a 'staging' spot for illegals hoping frighten them into finding a new spot. The Border Patrol response was to arrest those guys (on their own private property) and turn them over to the County Sheriff, who of course had to let them go. No Crime, No Time.

Around my neck of the woods the BP just snarls traffic, harrasses anyone who looks Mexican, kills innocents in high speed chases, and makes me screaming mad every time I go through the checkpoint at Rainbow (50 miles from the border).

I'm still wondering if the ACLU sent it's people down there to shadow the posse like they promised. Another bunch of dog wee knees.

Don't get me wrong, I'm totally for open borders. My point is that, rightly or wrongly, there is a massive failure by government, lefties like Cooper, and the media to comprehend the enormous fury that this whole immigration thing generates.

|4.4.05 @ 12:35PM|#

Thoreau,

I wish I could disagree. My guess is that the Minutemen will eventually try to "capture" some American citizens who just look a little "too Mexican". The inevitable aftermath will be ugly.

|4.4.05 @ 12:38PM|#

Aye, and I'd advise you could safely wager that if this "Minuteman" project is successful that we here in Boston will be patrolling the streets looking for those nasty illegal Hibernians seeking to take away our high paying local construction jobs.

The Wine Commonsewer|4.4.05 @ 12:40PM|#

There isn't one single person alive in Amercia today whose forebears didn't come from somewhere else. Not one.

You all came from immigrant stock.

|4.4.05 @ 12:48PM|#

I'm still trying to figure out what all the ruckus is. This sounds like nothing more than "Neighborhood Watch Bolsters Border Patrol."

What's the big deal? I mean I could understand if they were running around shooting people they suspected of crossing illegally... That's BAD. But these people are just calling in groups of people crossing the border illegally and the BP doesn't like that? That's like the cops complaining that the Neighborhood Watch is calling to report break-ins and trespassers.

I'm also confused by the "leftist" reporter. "Only about 150"? If it was a bunch of far-left loons would it read "an overhwelming crowd of more than 150"?

"the Border Patrol took extra steps to deploy an added number of official spokespersons outside the two stations where the rallies took place."

What? You mean the Border Patrol sent extra spokespeople to the heaviest concentration of media regarding their operations??? Gee, that's unheard of. Next you'll tell me that old urban legend that the most media flocks to sensationalist stories rather than sticking to C-Span style coverage!

|4.4.05 @ 12:48PM|#

You all came from immigrant stock.

that's true all over the world for the most part. What's your point?

Mass immigration, legal or illegal with a welfare state isn't fair to the taxpayers. As Milton Friedman says, "there is no free lunch and that includes immigration too"

|4.4.05 @ 12:49PM|#

Hmmm, this situation presents a quandary. I could always buy some sheep to mow the lawn.

However, a certain senator might question my motives,ie, carnal knowledge.

Too many moral choices for a Monday.

|4.4.05 @ 12:51PM|#

My only problem with the Minutemen is a matter of accountability. BP(poor as they are) has a command structure, defined routes of patrol, reports and write ups. The Minutemen are a mob of gun toting civilians with no one to answer to but themselves. I am all for the 2nd amendment, and to self-preservation, but the first Illegal that gets a 308 put in him will spark a major riot.

I can see it now, BP vs Minutemen, National Guard gets called in to "Assist". General revolt and overthrow of the Government. Hrrrm, this may not be so bad after all.

The Wine Commonsewer|4.4.05 @ 12:58PM|#

Billy Ray,

It's a simple point really, this country is entirely made up of immigrants and while migration is seen world wide, most of that migration took place eons ago, not one, two, or three generations back.

Secondly, TANSTAFL? Yeah, Friedman is right, but that isn't what we are talking about. And if it is, then let's abolish social services and the problem is solved.

The Wine Commonsewer|4.4.05 @ 1:00PM|#

Kwix, good points and a smile.

|4.4.05 @ 1:02PM|#

"Mass immigration, legal or illegal with a welfare state isn't fair to the taxpayers."

So, because the state robs me to give money to others, then it's ok to advocate the state robbing me in order to keep out people with whom I have no quarrel? I guess in your world Billy, two wrongs do make a right.

|4.4.05 @ 1:03PM|#

Pro-Minuteman mentality: "Now that me and mine are settled in, we shall close the gates to all others who seek a better life for themselves."

The hypocrisy is so thick in here you could cut it with a knife.

|4.4.05 @ 1:07PM|#

So, because the state robs me to give money to others, then it's ok to advocate the state robbing me in order to keep out people with whom I have no quarrel? I guess in your world Billy, two wrongs do make a right.

That's ridiculous. How is the state robbing you if we enforce our borders?

You might not have any quarrel with illegal aliens, but they're still a huge drain on localities.

|4.4.05 @ 1:09PM|#

"How is the state robbing you if we enforce our borders?"

How is the border patrol funded Billy?

|4.4.05 @ 1:16PM|#

Yeah, Friedman is right, but that isn't what we are talking about. And if it is, then let's abolish social services and the problem is solved.

Standard orthodox libertarian reply. Ain't gonna happen in my lifetime or 50yrs from now. Fact, California would be in the black right now if it weren't for illegals. Public schooling alone. Factor in everyting else and it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out what's happening. When we had previous great waves of immigrants in the 19th century the welfare state didn't exist. You either fished our cut bait. Up to 40 percent of newcomers went home. Now they suck off the state. And the fact that an endless supply of subsidized labor from south of the border is driving down wages for working class Americans. It's also slowing productivity in agricutlure.

|4.4.05 @ 1:21PM|#

BillyRay,

Your first post links to an Op-Ed piece about the economic damage done by illegals working cheaply. Your second post seems to claim that immigrants, legal or illegal, are abusing the welfare system.

Which is it? Are illegals coming to work , or for a ride?

|4.4.05 @ 1:22PM|#

"You might not have any quarrel with illegal aliens, but they're still a huge drain on localities."

Should we deport everyone who's a 'drain' on localities, or just the ones born in Mexico?

Who's more authentically American. . a Mexican who takes risks to get a better job and improve their life, or a lazy white guy who hangs flags all over his house? Which one believes in 'entitlement'?

|4.4.05 @ 1:23PM|#

should say for a free ride

|4.4.05 @ 1:24PM|#

"The hypocrisy is so thick in here you could cut it with a knife." - SPD

What's so hypocritical about requiring people to immigrate legally? You're not arguing that U.S. citizens are hypocritical for being of immigrant heritage but now that they're here they require other people to go through the same process they did, are you?

I'm an open borders kinda guy myself, but if I'm correct, the US still allows a lot of people to migrate to this country legally every year.

In fact, the Nationmaster web-site actually puts the US in the #1 slot for immigrant citizenships. It's sort of old data, since it's from 2000, but I think it does demonstrate the point.

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph-T/imm_new_cit

|4.4.05 @ 1:25PM|#

I think it was in the NY Times where I read that Mayor Bloomberg is distressed about the lack of jobs for college students and teenagers. I guess it never occurred to him that his city is a magnet for illegals and they're taking jobs that were historically done by teenagers.

|4.4.05 @ 1:26PM|#

If even one person is hurt by the Minutemen, there will be a firestorm. I wonder how many illegals were hurt by people BEFORE the Minutemen declared themselves, but that went unreported, because back then it wasn't "news"?

I don't see this group doing any more damage than was done before, it's just that we'll find out about it now.

|4.4.05 @ 1:26PM|#

I�ve always found it interesting that the anti-illegal immigration people focus more on the supply side than the demand side. If you really want to reduce illegal immigration, make it harder for illegals to find jobs, which means stronger fines and enforcement of the companies that hire illegal immigrants. Unfortunately, most of these companies are big campaign donors, *cough* Walmart *cough* ADM *cough*, so you�ll never see a big push to reduce the demand. It�s a lot easier to punish companies hiring illegals than it is to monitor and guard thousands of miles of border and coastline. But the rhetoric is more about keeping the brown people out than punishing people that create the demand for them.

Granted, I have no problems with more liberal immigration policies. I figure jobs that are given to illegal aliens domestically is a better situation than jobs going overseas, but that�s just me.

|4.4.05 @ 1:31PM|#

"Which is it? Are illegals coming to work , or for a ride?" - David

Who says they can't do both? Especially considering the crap wages illegals get paid?

"Should we deport everyone who's a 'drain' on localities, or just the ones born in Mexico?" - sidereal

No one is arguing that people who come from outside the US don't contribute to making the US a great place. (That I can tell.)

But other than the minority of US citizens who are open borders advocates, the argument is usually pretty logical - we should deport the ones who are here illegally, regardless of where they come from. I haven't seen much in the way of solid argument for open borders on this thread yet, so... Is that what you're advocating?

|4.4.05 @ 1:32PM|#

madpad: "You can't 'steal' jobs from people who don't want them..."

You can't steal jobs from people who don't OWN them.

|4.4.05 @ 1:33PM|#

Geeeshhh

Your first post links to an Op-Ed piece about the economic damage done by illegals working cheaply. Your second post seems to claim that immigrants, legal or illegal, are abusing the welfare system.

Which is it? Are illegals coming to work , or for a ride?

Lets see here now. They work off the books for the most part. Pay a little in the way of sales tax. Taxpayers are left picking up the tab for their health care, schooling for kids, extra prison space(50 percent of inmates in California are illegals) and lower quality of life. Just a few examples that lame brain open border types just can't quite figure out.

The Wine Commonsewer|4.4.05 @ 1:34PM|#

Billy Ray, you make good points about the welfare state. You're right, it isn't going away.

OTOH, it is a documented stat whites use social services at higher rates than latinos in proportion to their numbers in the general population. I'm okay with deporting eveyone who uses social services. Are you?

Secondly, the labor from south of the border isn't subsidized. Most of the workers are male they aren't bringing families with them. They work for cash or they work on payroll with social security taxes extracted and paid with no hope of ever recovering those dollars.

If you had experience with illegals you would know that the going market rate for their services is MORE than minimum wage. It's 8-10 bucks an hour an often includes lunch.

And even at that 25-40 percent premium above minimum wage, there are never any white teens, welfare moms, black kids, or unemployed people stopping by my house and offering to clear those got dam mustard plants off the hillside. It is ALWAYS latinos who are presumably illegal.

|4.4.05 @ 1:35PM|#

"I guess it never occurred to him that his city is a magnet for illegals and they're taking jobs that were historically done by teenagers."

Interesting. What's the semantic distinction between someone 'taking' a job and someone 'getting' a job? If you're entitle to an American job by virtue of your mother having the good fortune or good sense to birth you within our borders, you 'get' a job. Elsewise you 'take' it, correct?

"You're not arguing that U.S. citizens are hypocritical for being of immigrant heritage but now that they're here they require other people to go through the same process they did, are you?"

Do some research on 'same process as they did'. Consider that the green card didn't exist until 1950, and that we effectively had open borders (unless you were Chinese) until about 1917.

|4.4.05 @ 1:37PM|#

Mo: "I figure jobs that are given to illegal aliens domestically is a better situation than jobs going overseas..."

Why? Aside from the illegality issue (which begs the question - thanks Radley, by the way) it's none of your business who someone offers a job to either way.

|4.4.05 @ 1:37PM|#

How is the border patrol funded Billy?

To be fair, this same objection could be raised against perfectly legitimate gov't functions, like arbitrating contracts and arresting rapists and thieves and murderers.

I'm all in favor of more liberal immigration, but arguing against the Border Patrol on the grounds that it's tax-funded is just a cheesy way to avoid the bigger issues surrounding immigration.

And it's not entirely clear if CA would be in the black without illegals. Yes, they drain services, but they also keep a lot of businesses profitable, and businesses pay a lot of taxes in CA. To answer the question honestly would require a careful look at the economic situation in the absence of cheap labor. I don't claim to know what the answer would be, but the point is that the answer is not entirely obvious either way. It requires a careful look at a lot of data.

|4.4.05 @ 1:41PM|#

Posted by Brian Courts:

Mo: "I figure jobs that are given to illegal aliens domestically is a better situation than jobs going overseas..."

Why? Aside from the illegality issue (which begs the question - thanks Radley, by the way) it's none of your business who someone offers a job to either way.

It's called "nationalism" or "racism".

|4.4.05 @ 1:49PM|#

It�s a lot easier to punish companies hiring illegals than it is to monitor and guard thousands of miles of border and coastline. But the rhetoric is more about keeping the brown people out than punishing people that create the demand for them.

Good point, Mo.

Hypothetical here: How many people who support limits to immigration would support incarcerating Walmart managers? Taking those white-collar white guys born in the US and putting them in a prison?

How many?

How many want to arrest my sister-in-law, whose nanny is, well, on shaky legal ground? How many people really want to arrest that white, US-born female accountant? And her husband, another white guy born in the US who makes a hell of a lot of money?

Are you really ready to throw them both in prison and leave my nieces and nephews without parents?

Then again, while they're in prison they could probably use their savings to pay the nanny to care for the kids ;)

|4.4.05 @ 1:50PM|#

rob,

"the argument is usually pretty logical - we should deport the ones who are here illegally, regardless of where they come from."

It's essentially a tautological argument. You just get everyone to agree that 'illegal' is bad (easy enough), and then you make 'legal' incredibly onerous, and no one has any ground to complain. Example: my wife is about as braindead obvious an immigration candidate as you can imagine. She's educated, had (at time of immigration) a well-paying job, and was married to an American citizen, and yet the process has taken 3 years, required the use of two separate lawyers, about 300 pages of documents, and nearly a thousand dollars, and she's still just a permanent resident. How is this different from the poll tax?

"I haven't seen much in the way of solid argument for open borders on this thread yet, so... Is that what you're advocating?"

Yes. However, the consequentialist arguments in favor (lowers costs for goods, raises standard of living, yadda) make me vaguely uncomfortable, for the same reason consequentialist arguments against murder make me uncomfortable. I make a principled argument. People have the basic human right, absent their infringement on the liberties and rights of others, to do what they can to make their lives better for themselves and their families. If arbitrary borders infringe on that right (and they do), then I oppose them. Even if you can make a consequentialist argument that it hurts entitled 'native born' Americans. You know, like the Cherokee.

|4.4.05 @ 1:51PM|#

I feel sorry for people who live near popular illegal border crossings. They get screwed over by prohibitionist immigration laws the same way people in inner cities get screwed over by prohibitionist drug laws.

Unfortunately, the "Minutemen" (funny name, I don't recall the real Minutemen having a great deal more firepower and legal authority on their side than their opposition) are responding to the problem with a program that is about as rational as inner city church ladies calling for longer prison sentences and calling the cops whenever three teenagers have a conversation on a sidewalk.

|4.4.05 @ 1:52PM|#

If you aren't prepared to cheer as my sister-in-law and her husband go off to jail, then shut the fuck up about illegal immigration. Support Badnarik's plan: A heavily guarded border, but checkpoints that admit anybody who passes a check against criminal and terrorist databases.

Does anybody see any middle ground between sending my in-laws to prison and doing Badnarik's plan? Well, any middle ground that doesn't involve a hell of a lot of hypocrisy?

|4.4.05 @ 1:53PM|#

50 percent of inmates in California are illegals According to Cal. DOC stats, 38% of the prison population are hispanic. Surely, some of them must be legal.

|4.4.05 @ 1:57PM|#

thoreau, the relevant comparison is not between the status quo, and some fantasy world where there are no undocumented America-joiners in our country. The relevant comparison is between the status quo, and a situation in which every currently document-deprived new American is treated like a regular worker.

Give em their papers, start the state and federal withholding, send 'em to really good schools, and watch California's budget problem, and the Social Security shortfall, disappear.

|4.4.05 @ 2:05PM|#

thoreau,

I agree with you wholeheartedly about Badnarik's plan. However, it is too sensible and will thus disturb the anti-immigrant or "damn furriner" factions.

BillyRay seems to have a problem not necessarily with the immigrants who come here in search of jobs (although they don't seem to appeal to his gringo sensibilities, either), but those businesses who have the gall to hire them. Sounds like someone's itching for a little "government intervention" on this matter, perhaps to force business not to hire undocumented labor.

Yeah, that'll go over well.

|4.4.05 @ 2:05PM|#

Gimme a break.

Interesting. What's the semantic distinction between someone 'taking' a job and someone 'getting' a job? If you're entitle to an American job by virtue of your mother having the good fortune or good sense to birth you within our borders, you 'get' a job. Elsewise you 'take' it, correct?

It's called corporate welfare. When XYZ food company hires an illegal off the books the company is avoiding lots of rules and regulations that they'd be required to honor if a teenager or college student got the job. FICA taxes for one.

What the cheap labor lobby wants is to privatize all the gains that illegals provide, but socialize the expense that occurrs when the country is flooded with unskilled and uneducated peopl

|4.4.05 @ 2:05PM|#

It's called "nationalism" or "racism".

"Apartheid" has also been used.

But by any name, it's all legal discrimination based on a condition of birth. Something that one would think would be pretty unAmerican.

|4.4.05 @ 2:07PM|#

It sounds like to me that old SDP is big on corporate welfare.

|4.4.05 @ 2:07PM|#

What do skills and education have to do with the issue. You don't need a masters degree in physics to bus tables, pick grapes or mow lawns.

|4.4.05 @ 2:11PM|#

Hypothetical here: How many people who support limits to immigration would support incarcerating Walmart managers? Taking those white-collar white guys born in the US and putting them in a prison?

I would. First I'd fine the shit out of em, and if that didn't work a little time in slammer probably would. I've often argued on other forums that the real way to control illegal immigration is to go after people that hire em.

|4.4.05 @ 2:12PM|#

BillyRay

Your new robes are ready.

|4.4.05 @ 2:15PM|#

What do skills and education have to do with the issue. You don't need a masters degree in physics to bus tables, pick grapes or mow lawns.

And those jobs at one time were filled by teenagers, college kids, or those that are down on their luck.

I do lots of snow skiing. Used to be that the resort jobs in Utah for example were filled by college kids earning money for tuition or free lift tickets. Now it's nothing but illegals that are paid off the books.

|4.4.05 @ 2:17PM|#

"It's called corporate welfare. When XYZ food company hires an illegal off the books the company is avoiding lots of rules and regulations that they'd be required to honor if a teenager or college student got the job. FICA taxes for one."

Yes, that is a problem. Analogous to the problem that alcohol prohibition created by severing alcohol distribution from legal conduct. The solution is the same. If you legalize the immigrants, XYZ food company will put them on the books, and will adhere to rules and regulations (or at least as many as they adhere to for college students).

|4.4.05 @ 2:18PM|#

I know I've always won a debate at the Reasonaniac forum when the racism, anti-semitism, or homophobe label gets thrown out.

|4.4.05 @ 2:24PM|#

"To be fair, this same objection could be raised against perfectly legitimate gov't functions, like arbitrating contracts and arresting rapists and thieves and murderers."

I don't believe a "perfectly legitimate gov't function" exists.

"I'm all in favor of more liberal immigration, but arguing against the Border Patrol on the grounds that it's tax-funded is just a cheesy way to avoid the bigger issues surrounding immigration."

If you want to debate my arguments that's fine. But refering to them as "cheesy" is not debate. The issue is: do you or anyone else have a right to take money from me by force and use said loot against people who have done nothing to me?

The Wine Commonsewer|4.4.05 @ 2:25PM|#

"This is the same corrput Mexican government whose officials regularly rob, rape and murder Central Americans trying to sneak into Mexico."

John, this is the same Mexico that has no civil rights, where the jailed are held until somebody feels like throwing them a trial. Where very cop and federale is on the take......

Forward my mail to the Ensenada jail regards, TWC

|4.4.05 @ 2:27PM|#

No offense sidereal, but you don't live in the real world. The reason XYZ food company is hiring the illegals is because they're off the books. If you legalize them, then there's no reason to keep them on. It's like agriculture in California. This addiction to cheap labor has only slowed mechanization thus productivity. A few months ago a bunch of Raisin growers invested in new machinery to harvest their crop. Hundreds of illegals were thrown out of work and started to raise hell about the loss of their jobs. Well this new machinery not only picks the crop better, but you only have to maintain its upkeep and fill it up with gas.

The Wine Commonsewer|4.4.05 @ 2:33PM|#

"Used to be that the resort jobs in Utah for example were filled by college kids earning money for tuition or free lift tickets. Now it's nothing but illegals that are paid off the books"

You assume that anyone with a swarthy complexion is illegal and paid off the books. My old friend Jim from Pittsburgh thought that too when he would visit. That was because all those jobs in Pa were filled by people form West Virginia.

|4.4.05 @ 2:37PM|#

I know I've always won a debate at the Reasonaniac forum when the racism, anti-semitism, or homophobe label gets thrown out.

Hey, if the hood fits...

By the way, there are indeed plenty of people in the United States who commit crimes, collect welfare or work under the table and contribute little if anything to society at large other than litter more mouths to feed. They're commonly referred to as "white trash," and still outnumber illegals and other so-called "drains" on our society. But they get to stay because they were lucky enough to be born here, right?

|4.4.05 @ 2:39PM|#

From SPD:
Pro-Minuteman mentality: "Now that me and mine are settled in, we shall close the gates to all others who seek a better life for themselves."

The hypocrisy is so thick in here you could cut it with a knife

I don't think this is true. You assume that they are all against immigration, which is a huge, and likely erroneous assumption. There's nothing wrong with telling someone to come in your front door instead of tossing a brick through the side window and hopping through.

|4.4.05 @ 2:42PM|#

"No offense sidereal, but you don't live in the real world."

Well, I live in the same on you live in, as evidenced by our chatting. Take that for what it's worth.

"The reason XYZ food company is hiring the illegals is because they're off the books. If you legalize them, then there's no reason to keep them on. It's like agriculture in California. This addiction to cheap labor has only slowed mechanization thus productivity."

Upthread, illegals were taking jobs from college kids and retirees. But now you're saying that they're taking jobs from machines and the college kids are shit out of luck regardless. Which is it? If it's machines, then we both agree that legalizing it is the best solution, right? I get my principled immigration policy, and you get your mechanized productivity that illegal immigration is retarding. You draw up the petition and we can co-submit it.

|4.4.05 @ 2:43PM|#

The hypocrisy is so thick in here you could cut it with a knife

that should have been italicized in my above post.

|4.4.05 @ 2:44PM|#

If it's machines, then we both agree that legalizing it is the best solution, right?

Ja, let's legalize the immigration NOW! Machines rule Ka-lee-foor-knee-ah and that is FANTASTIC!

|4.4.05 @ 2:45PM|#

"There's nothing wrong with telling someone to come in your front door instead of tossing a brick through the side window and hopping through."

Unless you padlock the front door. Then it's kind of a mixed message.

|4.4.05 @ 2:48PM|#

"There's nothing wrong with telling someone to come in your front door instead of tossing a brick through the side window and hopping through."

Unless you padlock the front door. Then it's kind of a mixed message.

I open the lock for everyone except violent criminals and the fraud/theft/b&e/known gang association types.

|4.4.05 @ 2:49PM|#

Minuteman Project provides a map with the locations of each watch group to the Border Patrol. No chasing false alarms from sensors involved. Patrols are stationary. ACLU, press and protestors are acting as involuntary force multipliers as the crossers in waiting cannot tell the difference between the groups. Border Patrol is flanking the area manned by the Minutemen and catching the illegals as they attempt end runs on the Minuteman line. You hate mongers can wish for disaster all you want, sickos. I hope for better than that.

|4.4.05 @ 2:51PM|#

I'm fine with illegal immigrants as long as they don't interfere with our government's sovereign right to collect cigarette taxes.

|4.4.05 @ 2:55PM|#

Great Ape -
"I open the lock for everyone except violent criminals and the fraud/theft/b&e/known gang association types."

So you support the legalization of 99% of current illegal immigration, which is what the loony open-borders types support. So you're a loony open-borders type. Welcome.

OnTheBorder -
"Patrols" "involuntary force multipliers" "flanking" "the Minuteman line"

You've watched Band of Brothers way too many times.

The Wine Commonsewer|4.4.05 @ 3:01PM|#

SPD,

Some local cultural sudies prof of some kind at UCR has been quoted as saying (of course) that all the so-called Minute Men are racists.

But it really is a larger issue than racism. The verwhelming majority of illegals are hispanic and are coming from Mexico and points south across the US border with Mexico. That makes it an issue that is largely about hispanics (latinos, Mexicans, you pick the term you like)

To be concerned with an issue that involves mostly hispanics doesn't necessarily mean that the people who oppose immigration are are racially motivated although that can certainly is a component with some.

Keep in mind that this same UCR prof would accuse libertarians of being racists as well because we oppose social services for illegals (and everyone in general).

|4.4.05 @ 3:01PM|#

Why? Aside from the illegality issue (which begs the question - thanks Radley, by the way) it's none of your business who someone offers a job to either way.

I think you misunderstood me Brian, I prefer a job to go to an American immigrant (legal or not) than to a foreign national.

It's called "nationalism" or "racism".

It�s racism for me to prefer a job be given to a illegal immigrant Mexican to a Chinese person in China? I can see the nationalism aspect (I would be lying if I said it was not part of my reasoning), but my preference for a job to remain domestic is purely rational and self-interested. Assuming equal cost, a company that produces and sells a product domestically pays US taxes. Every dollar of taxes collected from not-Mo, is one less dollar of taxes needed from Mo. Therefore, more domestic production, once again assuming equal price at the end (without rigging the price by taxing imports), is preferable to overseas production.

|4.4.05 @ 3:05PM|#

Every dollar of taxes collected from not-Mo, is one less dollar of taxes needed from Mo.

I don't think you understand federal government budgeting procedures. :)

|4.4.05 @ 3:06PM|#

Every dollar of taxes collected from not-Mo, is one less dollar of taxes needed from Mo. Don't worry Mo, they'll take your dollar too.

|4.4.05 @ 3:12PM|#

Taxes aside, there's always something to be said for wanting to be closer to production and consumption rather than further from it. Most (not all, but most) people find it economically advantageous to be in a large city, surrounded by more buyers for their services and more sellers for whatever they want to buy.

Not saying we should adopt Lou Dobbs' recommendations for keeping economic activity here, but it's certainly nice when it works out that way. And if we can help that happen by not meddling in the economy, well, sounds good to me.

|4.4.05 @ 3:13PM|#

So you support the legalization of 99% of current illegal immigration

Depends on the terms. I don't agree with the current illegal immigrants that help themselves across the Rio Grande. As a sovereign nation we have the right, and the obligation, to check everyone's ID at the door. So long as they're kosher, bring 'em in!

|4.4.05 @ 3:17PM|#

Some local cultural sudies prof of some kind at UCR has been quoted as saying (of course) that all the so-called Minute Men are racists.

yep, same guy who's on record saying that the SW USA will become Aztlan. He's a MeCha prof all the way. Brown power, everyone else has to leave.

|4.4.05 @ 3:21PM|#

". . .Illegals do perform jobs that Americans don't want. But they also take jobs that Americans used to want, like skilled construction jobs and; um, my job. "

I feel for ya John but, if they can do the job cheaper and just as well, what do you expect?

|4.4.05 @ 3:22PM|#

STOP THE PRESSES! I THINK

THE WINE COMMONSEWER

HAS AN ALTERIOR MOTIVE/AGENDA. OBVIOUSLY HE IS SMARTER AND MUCH MORE WELL ROUNDED THAN US STUPID FUCKING COMMOMFOLK. HEY, TWC, WHY ARE YOU NOT THE FUCKING KING, SEEMS LIKE YOU HAVE IT ALL WORKED OUT AND JUSTIFIED TO BOOT. I'M GONNA GO PUKE NOW.

|4.4.05 @ 3:24PM|#

Armando Navarro, Prof.Univ.Calif. at Riverside, Calif. are included in CCIR's taped live CD, audio & booklet entitled "Reconquista - The Takeover of America" . As a prof at UCR, he can be heard screaming (in his own words), his hatred, violence and revolution against America and our citizens he has preached on that campus for many years.

|4.4.05 @ 3:28PM|#

I'm amazed at how much some of the open border loons sound like this clown

|4.4.05 @ 3:28PM|#

Antichris,

I'm sure that your computer can handle lower case letters.

|4.4.05 @ 3:33PM|#

Antichris,

I'm sure that your computer can handle lower case letters.

David,

Maybe it can't. Maybe on his computer your message looks like:

A,

I'.

|4.4.05 @ 3:45PM|#

I'm amazed at how much some of the open border loons sound like this clown

I am equally amazed by how many pro-Minuteman nitwits sound like this clown.

|4.4.05 @ 3:59PM|#

"Do some research on 'same process as they did'. Consider that the green card didn't exist until 1950, and that we effectively had open borders (unless you were Chinese) until about 1917." - sidereal

The process has certainly changed, no argument, but that's not the fault of the people who got here prior to the change and doesn't change the fact that the rules are what they are now. The utility of the current rules aren't something I'd try to defend, obviously, but we're still allowing LOTS of people to legally immigrate.

Regardless of how the process has changed, the people who immigrated here legally did it ... drum roll please for the big reveal ... LEGALLY! Including the large numbers I've referenced that are as recent as 2000.

If you're an open borders guy like I am, then I think we agree. I still haven't seen an argument that defeats the logical argument I usually hear, tho. You state the argument is tautological, and tho it may be, it's an argument that most people have bought off on and I can't really fault them for it. The reality is until you can logically argue that "illegal immigration" is actually a good thing rather than just semantics you don't approve of, there will be no change. Unless we move the goal posts regarding what constitutes legal and illegal immigration. I've got NO problem with that.

I can't figure out how how you can claim that we are "padlocking the front door" when we're at the top of the list of nations for legal immigrations. That just doesn't make sense. I'm sorry your wife is having a tough time with the system, but she's not an illegal immigrant, and eventually I'm sure she'll gain full citizenship as have several of my military friend's wives.

"If arbitrary borders infringe on that right (and they do), then I oppose them." - sidereal

I don't think you can declare any border settled by a war as "arbitrary." But I agree that the best argument is usually from principle rather than consequence.

|4.4.05 @ 4:13PM|#

NITWITS, CLOWNS, LOONS, SOUNDS LIKE MOST OF THE CURRENT ADMIN. AND CONGRESS.
BETTER WAKE UP AND LOOK AROUND AT WHAT IS HAPPENING TO OUR COUNTRY. I MEAN
SPD,TWC,AND THE LIKE
WRITE LIKE THEY HAVE HALF A BRAIN, MAYBE YOU SHOULD USE THE OTHER HALF AND SYNTHESIZE THE INFO THAT YOU VISUALLY GATHER. 1+1 DOES = 2.
THE WHOLESALE COLLAPSE OF SOCIAL PROGRAMS, EDUCATION AND MEDICAL SERVICES(WELL 2 OUT OF 3 OF THESE ARE PRETTY MUCH THERE NOW)IS ON THE BRINK.
IT IS DIRECTLY RELATED TO NO IMMIGRATION CONTROL.
CAN YOU SAY SYSTEMATIC THIRD WORLDIZATION.
GO TO GOOGLE AND SEARCH "SANCTUARY CITY".THIS IS ONE REASON MY UNCLES KILLER WILL NEVER BE BROUGHT TO JUSTICE.
ALL THIS FOR LETTING A GOVERNMENT DO FOR US WHAT WE SHOULD BE DOING OURSELVES,PROTECTING OUR BORDERS.

|4.4.05 @ 4:18PM|#

Antichris,

Wow, undo the CAPS LOCK key bro. My retinas are burnin'!

|4.4.05 @ 4:19PM|#

THE WHOLESALE COLLAPSE OF SOCIAL PROGRAMS, EDUCATION AND MEDICAL SERVICES(WELL 2 OUT OF 3 OF THESE ARE PRETTY MUCH THERE NOW)IS ON THE BRINK.
IT IS DIRECTLY RELATED TO NO IMMIGRATION CONTROL

No, it's directly related to the fact that the progams are inherenlty faulty irrespective of immigration.

|4.4.05 @ 4:21PM|#

ANTICHRIS: the collapse of education, medicare and welfare? woohoo! you are preaching to the choir, my friend. THE CHOIR!

|4.4.05 @ 4:22PM|#

it seems to me that the problem is not so much that people are hiring illegal workers (after all in a true capitalist market who could blame an owner for hiring at the lowest possible wage) but the damage these workers cause to the balance of government social services. illegal immigration is not the issue here. the issue is scaling back government and abolishing government handouts. it also seems to me that an overwhelming number of illegal hispanic immigrants are devout catholics and could find welfare refuge with the church.

|4.4.05 @ 4:36PM|#

Antichris,

I'm sorry about your uncle. I had a very difficult time when my father died, and that was natural.

I found a great therapist through work, and talking to him really helped.

|4.4.05 @ 4:42PM|#

Rob
is that better,and your ears aren't.

shit, didn't know I had a choir, now I'll be at it all day.

Bonzofan
I do agree, but are you saying leave it in the govt. hands to scale back. since when did your vote count.Really, the rcc only cares about young little boys.

|4.4.05 @ 4:43PM|#

SPD writes:I am equally amazed by how many pro-Minuteman nitwits sound like this clown.

The only nitwit I've seen so far is you

|4.4.05 @ 4:44PM|#

bonzofan,

Good points. The tricky thing is selling those ideas to that portion of the map who make it 49% Blue.

I would guesstimate, based on nothing whatsoever, that about 60-75% of people don't think there's really anything wrong with the gov't taking part of your paycheck to subsidize people who can't - or can't be bothered - to make it on their own.

It seems the sort of impasse that usually leads to a lot of gov't intervention and a lot of hypocrisy:

1. The bread and circuses approach means that we're probably not going to get rid of gov't handouts.

2. The flow of illegal immigrants is not going to stop unless we seal the border (politically inconvenient to say the least).

3. The rules are changed to make "legal" the majority of people who currently come here illegally but never commit any real crime once they're here.

I think the Badnarik plan has merit, but I'm an open borders "loony."

|4.4.05 @ 4:45PM|#

And by that ad hominem attack, I can assume you've conceded the argument, BillyRay? I graciously accept.

|4.4.05 @ 4:47PM|#

antichris - That's a LOT better. Thanks amigo!

|4.4.05 @ 4:54PM|#

Having grown up in enchanting New Mexico, I'd just like to toss in my deep, over-riding hatred of permanent border patrol checkpoints. Yeah, I know, they've come up with some great rulings to bulldoze the 4th amendment. Still, every time I'd pull into line at a checkpoint I'd always wonder why we thought the Soviets were so evil. And then to have an agent of the federal government query me as to where I was going and why...well, it still angers me to this day. Sure, sure, just doing their job...

|4.4.05 @ 4:58PM|#

STP, you started with the attacks son. Not me.

|4.4.05 @ 4:59PM|#

JCM,

Is the near a regular border crossing or just randomly with far south NM?

|4.4.05 @ 5:02PM|#

does anyone else feel that it is outrageous that you have to spend $85 dollars for a passport to prove that you're an american citizen?

|4.4.05 @ 5:08PM|#

JCM
You know some say this the last greatest soviet style republic. c'mon, lighten up, "Hey we are the government we're here to HELP you man".

|4.4.05 @ 5:09PM|#

does anyone else feel that it is outrageous that you have to spend $85 dollars for a passport to prove that you're an american citizen?

FYI - they raised the price to $97 last summer

|4.4.05 @ 5:11PM|#

Bonzofan
that price includes your very own state of the art RFID chip. why even have ink or a pic, its redundant.

|4.4.05 @ 5:12PM|#

I think you misunderstood me Brian, I prefer a job to go to an American immigrant (legal or not) than to a foreign national.

Mo, no I think I understood the point - and to the extent it's simply a preference and assuming you wouldn't try to stop me from hiring a foreign national if I chose to, fine. I think it's morally wrong to prefer a domestic stranger to a foreign stranger but it is your right to do so, to be sure.

It's racism for me to prefer a job be given to a illegal immigrant Mexican [rather than] to a Chinese person in China?

Yes. Or perhaps more precisely, it is the moral equivalent of racism when the only basis for preferring person A to person B is a completely arbitrary "accident" of birth.

Self-interest isn't going to save the argument either - a self-interested preference for whites is racism no mater how true the self-interest may turn out to be.

Having said that, let's look at the self-interest part.

...a company that produces and sells a product domestically pays US taxes. Every dollar of taxes collected from not-Mo, is one less dollar of taxes needed from Mo.

And where does that company get the dollars to pay its taxes? Could it be in higher prices paid by Mo? The simple fact is that every dollar the government collects in taxes from those domestically producing companies is a dollar those companies got from you through higher prices.

And what of the companies that you send dollars to in China? The only reason they (or the person who exchanges dollars for Yuan) will accept dollars is because they can get something they like with them. Whether that dollar gets invested or spent on US goods, one way or another it comes back and generates more taxable economic activity, if that's your measure of economic success.

However, the generation of taxes paid by domestically producing companies is not a net benefit to begin with. It is simply is a tax on consumers via an intermediary company. If the goal is collecting tax revenue from consumers, the government certainly doesn't lack for mechanisms to achieve that end regardless of where the production is done.

|4.4.05 @ 5:15PM|#

Great Ape-
Nah, believe it or not, if you live in Las Cruces, NM, the only way you can leave town without being stopped and questioned by the federal gov'ment is to drive towards the border. They've got bp checkpoints on every road leading North, West and East. Visit a relative in Alomogordo? You'll be stopped. Head to the state capital in Santa Fe? You'll be stopped. Great place, makes me all warm and fuzzy remembering. Got me hating authority at an early age.

|4.4.05 @ 5:25PM|#

JCM - One of my least favorite police state maneuvers, the roadblock/checkpoint. I miss the 4th Amendment.

"Federales!"

"Your papers are not in order!"

No matter how you put it, it sounds WRONG. Even if you're trying to catch drunk drivers or illegal immigrants, its too much infringement on law-abiding citizens.

|4.4.05 @ 5:37PM|#

MAYBE YOU SHOULD SPEND SOME TIME IN MEXICO AND EDUCATE YOURSELF. GO HELP THEM FIX THEIR SOCIAL PROBLEMS BEFORE THEY BANKRUPT MORE OF OUR BODER CITIES.

Antichris,

Just read your response to my earlier post.

You've assumed an observation equals an endorsement. Observing that Mexican illegals have taken American shit jobs is not the same as supporting it.

But the obvious fact is that if companies are willing to risk fines and federal legal issues to hire them, they must represent an advantage over the options.

What are the options?

My experience managing restaurants that used illegals (not MY choice) was that the alternatives were usually undependable people with a poor work ethic who had a hard time staying sober.

The illegals represented a last resort that was a marked improvement over the other options. The illegals showed up - usually early - and did their jobs quickly and well. If, by chance, one called in sick, he sent a friend to work in his place.

Usually they were clean - certainly no worse and usually much better than the drunk they were replacing.

I don't pretend to have all the answers and I have my problems with all this.

But at the end of the day, Americans like the cheap produce underpaid illegals help provide.

And many Americans see the jobs illegals will willingly work for minimum wage as beneath them.

Like it or not, they are a significant part of the economy. Get rid of it, and you're just replacing one set of problems with another one.

|4.4.05 @ 5:43PM|#

BEFORE THEY BANKRUPT MORE OF OUR BODER CITIES

God forbid that the rest of the country experience the blight that is San Diego!

The Wine Commonsewer|4.4.05 @ 5:53PM|#

Hey, Antichris,

Sorry to hear that you're bulimic. Now stop shouting.

What? Are you pissed because I pointed out that not everyone who opposes immigration is a racist?

Would that be because you oppose immigration because you are a racist?

Or didn't you actually read my poorly edited post?

Besides,

I AM THE FREAKIN' KING

|4.4.05 @ 5:56PM|#

The Minutemen? Great, just what we need - another bunch of weekend warriors taking the law into their own hands.

The Wine Commonsewer|4.4.05 @ 5:59PM|#

JCM, no shit, don't you hate that?

Where's the probable cause?

|4.4.05 @ 6:05PM|#

JCM,
We�ve got a permanent checkpoint here in Sunny CA as well, between Orange County and SD (there may be more, that I�ve never driven past). When I dated a lovely young lady in Vista, the snarled traffic for my morning drive to work was my reward for this border management. Usually, they�d wave people through without comment or stopping. I can�t remember being stopped or asked a question more than once or twice, if that.

simply a preference and assuming you wouldn't try to stop me from hiring a foreign national if I chose to, fine

Wouldn�t dream of it Brian. I�m a free trader at heart. Since my customers are overwhelmingly on this side of the border, the more people in my area with jobs and an income, the better. At the same time, lower prices for imported good are also a positive to me as well, so cheap foreign goods benefit me. I don�t believe my preference is that big a deal because a) it�s a pretty mild preference at the margins (rather than the Lou Dobbs extreme of wanting to tax imports up the wazoo to protect American workers) b) I don�t care if others act differently than I would. If you want to build all your factories in Karachi or Manila, it�s your prerogative. If it reduces your costs and generates more wealth than one you could�ve built in Oklahoma City, then more power to you.

|4.4.05 @ 6:09PM|#

Wine - Probable cause? More like "probably just because"... Well, maybe the probable cause comes from the confused look on their face when they see the NPR sticker next to the NRA sticker.

That look never ceases to entertain me, but it doesn't go far to make up for being stopped questioned in the middle of the road.

Y'know, I've got really good friends who are cops and I still can't figure out how they reconcile some of this stuff.

|4.4.05 @ 6:13PM|#

Here's something that the overwhelmingly male H&R crowd could go for: Automatic visas for women who look like Michelle Malkin!

|4.4.05 @ 6:22PM|#

Hypothetical here: How many people who support limits to immigration would support incarcerating Walmart managers? Taking those white-collar white guys born in the US and putting them in a prison?

How many want to arrest my sister-in-law, whose nanny is, well, on shaky legal ground?


Fine them civily, for surely. Fine them enough so that the cost of business changes to where it becomes unprofitable to continue the process.

If they continue to violate the law after several instances, then those directly responsible should bear the crimminal costs as well.

This only makes sense unless we're going to change the policy as it is. You shouldn't let anyone, your sister-in-law, or WalMart continue to break a law if the law is in theory sound.

Of course if the law isn't sound, for instance the useless war on drugs, then it's time to take another look.

|4.4.05 @ 6:24PM|#

Michelle Malkin? Compared to most pundits she's attractive I suppose - but that's like saying you won 2d place in a beauty contest that only had 2 contestants...

Now Salma Hayek, Halle Berry, Cameron Diaz and Penelope Cruz lookalikes would all get a free pass from me even if they were known terrorists!

(Which is why I can't get a job with the BP!)

|4.4.05 @ 6:26PM|#

My Louis XIV ode to Michelle Malkin:

Ah xenophobe, well you're looking like something I want,
(finding out true love is blind)
And your little Asian friend, well, she can come if she wants,
(finding out true love is blind)
I want all the self-righteous girls who try to hide their extremism with makeup,
(finding out true love is blind)
You know it's the girl on Fox News with the tight ass I really wanna shake up.

Hey Coultergeist, I wanna squeeze you away until you bleed,
(finding out true love is blind)
And your right-wing friends, well they look like something I need,
(finding out true love is blind)
I want miss little pundit with your glasses and all your books,
(finding out true love is blind)
And I want the stupid girl who gives O'Reilly naughty looks.
(finding out true love is blind)


What can I say? I like the song!

|4.4.05 @ 6:27PM|#

The whole bp checkpoint thing brings home why they put in the 4th amendment...you can be as patriotic and gun-loving and police-supporting as you want, but as soon as you pull into the station and the nice bp officer sticks his head in your car window and asks where you're coming from...you're no longer "free". Make a smart-ass comment (or have the misfortune of being born hispanic) and you'll be standing in the sun for the next 2 hours while they gang-rape your car. I was driving my mother's car one time and after he walked around it and noticed the parking sticker, he asked me if I worked for the university. Now I have to justify to the nice federal agent why I'm driving this particular car? It's just wrong on so many levels. But hey, there ya go--welcome to Amerika, your papers, please.

|4.4.05 @ 6:30PM|#

To clarify, the state of California spends roughly $10,000 per year to mis-educate its children. Eliminate tax-payer funded primary education, then open the borders wide!

|4.4.05 @ 6:34PM|#

Fine them civily, for surely. Fine them enough so that the cost of business changes to where it becomes unprofitable to continue the process.

Well, given how much money my sister-in-law makes, unless those fines are pretty steep it will be cheaper for her to hire a nanny than to stay at home. And since she's had this nanny for quite some time, her preference will be to stick with the nanny that her kids know rather than switch to some stranger.

Hey, here's an idea: You can hire as many illegals as you want as long as you're willing to pay the government a fee! And the fee will be set on an individual basis, as determined by how much the government can get from you before you declare bankruptcy!

Yessirree, we'll protect our sovereignty from that damn free market!

|4.4.05 @ 6:41PM|#

It seems to me that a lot of people on both sides of this issue are missing the point. Legal immigrants are good for us and them!!! Illegal aliens or immigrants are not good for ANYBODY!!! Get more processing points so that we know who is here and what they are here for and where they are. Put a stop to ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION by any and all means and make LEGAL IMMIGRATION easier and faster....What is wrong with this strategy???? Ottie

|4.4.05 @ 6:45PM|#

Ottie-

I agree! Bring the labor market above ground by putting in place very simple and transparent rules that only terrorists and other thugs would try to flout. When the only people who aren't allowed in are terrorists and other people who might hurt somebody else, the illegals will (1) be far fewer and hence easier to cope with and (2) composed almost entirely of dangerous people, so it will make sense from an ethical and practical standpoint to go after them.

|4.4.05 @ 6:45PM|#

thoreau -

Point taken, but jail terms for continued violation change that equation as well. Possibly you're correct that a large fine that isn't based upon the person's/corporation's pay/profit won't matter for some, but the enforcement of the law itself will matter when people go to jail.

And I'm not sure how else you would do it, as this is a civil matter, as with most business matters. It only becomes crimminal after continued ignoring, or proof of fraud or some other crime.

Again though, this all assumes the law is valid as written.

And as you stated, and I agree with, I don't think we can prove illegal immigrants to be a drain completely. I think decent, hardworking illegals (oxymoron?), probably stay low key and pay various small taxes like sales tax when purchasing items, yet take little to none in way of public services because of constantly avoiding government places where they may fear being returned. Of course it's impossible to find out either way due to the definition of undocumented.

|4.4.05 @ 6:47PM|#

Ottie - agreed.

|4.4.05 @ 6:52PM|#

SixSigma-

One thing to keep in mind about illegals and government services is that a lot of them leave their kids in Mexico. Certainly not all, but quite a few. It makes more sense for the father to come here and work and send money to Mexico, and leave his kids there where the money that he sends will go further. Those kids aren't costing the public schools a dime.

So yeah, the question of whether illegals are a net drain is a difficult one.

In regard to another drain on the economy, illegals who go to prison for other crimes: I'd venture that if the process were brought above ground, it would be easier to keep out the criminals. It would be easier for law enforcement to deal with a handful of thieves and rapists and whatnot, rather than trying to keep out a deluge of workers. And if we ended the drug prohibition that piggybacks on top of the smuggling and also sends some of the immigrants to prison, that would further reduce the number of immigrants in US prisons.

Of course, more liberal immigration laws might incur other costs in terms of social services, but my hunch is that liberalization would at least reduce the costs to the criminal justice system. So the net effect would be complicated, and not the obvious drain that some contend it would be.

|4.4.05 @ 7:03PM|#

Illegal aliens or immigrants are not good for ANYBODY!!!

You're kidding, right? Each illegal alien is obviously good for at least two people: the illegal alien and the person employing the illegal alien. Otherwise, the latter would not have employed the former.

Furthermore, by lowering costs of production, illegal aliens are beneficial to the common weal in exactly the same way as improved mechanization.

Put a stop to ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION by any and all means and make LEGAL IMMIGRATION easier and faster....What is wrong with this strategy????

The problem is that the latter must be addressed before the former -- as demonstrated by the complete failure of the United States in dealing with the former.

As for addressing the latter, "legal immigration" should mean showing up at the border, passing a background check, and getting a yellow card that identifies you as someone who has cleared immigration as a nonthreat to the security of the United States.

|4.4.05 @ 7:51PM|#

Ottie for Senate.

|4.4.05 @ 10:59PM|#

As an extension on the very good posts made by The Real Bill and thoreau, maybe we can ensure that only the hardest working illegals make it. How? Make it hard as hell, but not impossible to get in. We can put an obstacle course out in the desert featuring endurance tests for important abilities: perhaps a four day vegetable harvesting marathon in the spirit of Survivor. No water or sleep, if you're still pulling cabbage after 96 straight, welcome to America. Then, for every person we let in, we turn one drunk welfare queen over to the Mexicans. We can drop him off in Acuna and tell them he was stealing Sauza. No way the US can lose on that trade.

|4.4.05 @ 11:01PM|#

I belatedly realized that this forum has jumped the shark. Oh well, at least I make myself laugh...

|4.4.05 @ 11:09PM|#

How about a reality show where the prize is a green card?

Donald Trump can give them tasks, whoever does well gets a green card and whoever doesn't gets deported.

"Pedro, you were smart and maximized the number of strawberries picked by picking in early morning and late afternoon, when people would be less exhausted by the heat. Because of your excellent job as project manager, you'll be exempt next week."

"And Ramon, you were lousy as project manager. So I have to say, you're deported."

|4.4.05 @ 11:24PM|#

Central and South American countries are mass evicting the native peoples of Central and South America. Why?

Are Central and South American Indians native to North America? Let's ask the Comanches.

|4.5.05 @ 12:39AM|#

The Libertarians aren't gonna get anywhere unless they get rid of their stupid purity tests and learn to embrace ultra-right wing, anti-immigration activists.

The Wine Commonsewer|4.5.05 @ 12:40AM|#

You guys keep forgetting that the Native Americans also came here from somewhere else, and therefore are not Native (although they did get here first).

And now they have evidence that anglos were here in North America even before the Natives crossed the Bering Strait from Asia.

|4.5.05 @ 12:43AM|#

thoreau,
It's been done. It's called Gana La Verde, but they get you an immigration lawyer to help you get a green card.

The Wine Commonsewer|4.5.05 @ 12:49AM|#

Rob, Mo, I am so happy to hear about someone else that gets pissed at those checkpoints. Mo, there is another major checkpoint on I-15 near Temecula. New Years Eve 2003 it had traffic backed up for 40 miles.

Believe it or don't, the Repub from Carlsbad (Ron Packard) has actually proposed closing both checkpoints (I-5 and I-15) and re-deploying the BP to the actual frikking border. He got real far with that one.

|4.5.05 @ 12:51AM|#

Huh? The Wine Commonsewer, what evidence of anglos being here before American Indians crossed the Bering Strait?

|4.5.05 @ 1:21AM|#

How about a reality show where the prize is a green card? - thoreau

With each passing day, reality makes satire more difficult.

Reality Show Offers Green Card as Incentive - Fox News, August 5, 2005

As for the "no green cards before whenever" argument, Congress has restricted non-Asian immigration since 1921's Emergency Quota Act.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emergency_Quota_Act

Kevin

The Wine Commonsewer|4.5.05 @ 12:19PM|#

Mariana, The Kennewick Man that was found in Washington state in the late 90's is causcasoid and is about 10,000 years old. If memory serves there were a couple of other similar discoveries on the west coasts of the Americas. At the time of the discovery he was thought to be the oldest human remains ever found in the Americas.

Recently, however, further modern testing was done on a woman discovered on Santa Rosa island in the 1950's and scientists now think that she is even older--at 13,500 years. This is brand new state of the art testing that was done this or last year I think.

The newest theory has more Polynesians and southern Asians in the mix, coming by boat and then traveling the coasts at the end of the ice age.

As I recall from biology many, many years ago American Indians are definitely genetically related to Asians, lending credence to the "land bridge" theory of migration.

Of course, we are all genetically related to each other, but you know what I mean.

|4.5.05 @ 4:35PM|#

TWC

Apparently one of the ancient arrowheads (Clovis?) shows more connection to Western Europe than to Asia, suggesting a migration across the Atlantic.

The local tribes are using Federal Law to prevent The Kennewick Man from being investigated by scientists because what has been discovered already conflicts with their religious beliefs.

The Wine Commonsewer|4.5.05 @ 5:18PM|#

Isaac, that's right, I forgot about the tribal warfare over that guy. A nice PC twist to this as well.

|4.5.05 @ 8:12PM|#

About Kennewick Man, I found this:


6 October 2000
A Question of Race - Forensic Anthropologists Disagree About Racial Characteristics and Bone Structure A controversy erupted when anthropologists said the Kennewick Man resembled Caucasians more than American Indians.

When an ancient skeleton was unearthed in the Pacific Northwest four years ago, some anthropologists said the skull didn't resemble modern American Indians, spurring speculation that Indians weren't the only, or even the first, people to arrive in the Americas. The 9,000-year-old skeleton, now known as Kennewick Man, died when he was 45-50 years old, according to a government study. His pelvis had grown over a 2-inch-long stone point embedded in his hip, perhaps giving him a limp. He also had suffered injuries to his skull and left arm, as well as broken ribs many years before he died. Scientists also took a close look at Kennewick Man's face. Some said the bones looked Asian. Others said they were Caucasian, or even Neanderthal. But just how much can the framework of the body tell about the person who lived inside of it?

Based on measurements of the Kennewick skeleton, the National Park Service report states that the skeleton is biologically affiliated most closely with groups from Polynesia and the Ainu of Japan, a group indigenous to northern Japan who are physically different from most Japanese. Many archaeologists believe the Ainu are the descendents of a population that lived in many parts of south Asia thousands of years ago, and had some physical traits that are similar to Caucasians, such as wavy hair and thick facial hair. "The fact is, Caucasoid people used to be a much wider population," says Gill. "This can be seen in the Ainu of Japan. All of Japan, even just 3,000 years ago were bearded, white people."

So, if true, even the racially pure Japanese are (relatively recent) immigrants.