Torture's Bad, Mmmmkay?

Julian Sanchez | December 31, 2004

The Justice Department takes a step in the direction of the civilized world by expanding its definition of torture, which (one hopes) may reduce the frequency of "fraternity pranks" of the sort complained about by FBI agents in these documents. The full memo is here (PDF). Note that it backs away from, but does not explicitly repudiate, the previous assertion that the president may, at his discretion, suspend treaty-based proscriptions on torture.

Comments

|12.31.04 @ 12:52PM|#

It's war. If we need to use certain methods to obtain information that will shorten the war, save lives and generally be in the best interest of troops/civilians then there should be no limits.

Now, keep this mind, the most gruesome forms of torture are not effective at retrieving information. This has been proven over time. The really sicko stuff that the pacifists are pictureing as they read this post are not the kind of methods employed for retrieving information.

It is war. Another proven little facet of human nature, and not just American human nature, is that if it is perceived that the prisoner is going to be too much of a burden, the typical foot soldier is more likely to give no quarter. It's easier to just kill them outright.

|12.31.04 @ 1:10PM|#

Darth Vader using the Force to crush the throat of his enemy to get the where abouts of one rebel stronghold is not torture. He isn't even touching the guy, for christ sakes! Besides, its war.

|12.31.04 @ 1:23PM|#

I note for the record that Lord Vader's technique failed to help him conjure up the stolen data tapes or find the rebels' hidden fortress. And I think his gloved hand around the throat of the recalcitrant rebel scum was close enough to constitute "touching".

I wonder if Jedi mind-control techniques are constitutional?

|12.31.04 @ 2:09PM|#

Enough of this bickering! Vader, release him!

|12.31.04 @ 2:32PM|#

This is the funniest torture-related thread I've seen!

If Lynndie England starts rolling up her hair like a pair of headphones I'll be worried.

|12.31.04 @ 2:39PM|#

These aren't the torture-authorizing memos you're looking for.

Move along.

|12.31.04 @ 2:40PM|#

I am your father, George.

|12.31.04 @ 3:20PM|#

[Dubbya] I find yer lack a' faith... un'merican.

|12.31.04 @ 5:50PM|#

thoreau,

Was there a reason why you wanted me to throw-up?

|1.1.05 @ 12:00AM|#

"If we need to use certain methods to obtain information that will shorten the war, save lives and generally be in the best interest of troops/civilians then there should be no limits."

This was an unnecessary war to begin with. And who decides on whom we should use these "any methods"? Should we use them on every single arab male we meet? Should we round them all up and hang them by their balls till they give us the goodies?

If you catch Osama or Zarqawi then, ok, but your argument ignores the fact that our methods have probably aroused more emnity towards the US and will end more lives then lives we'll save from the utilization of your methods.

But hey, it's WAR, man! Why bother thinking about any of that? Let's kill us some camel-jockeys!

Happy fucking New Year.

|1.1.05 @ 12:18AM|#

This wouldn't have anything to do with Gonzales' upcoming confirmation hearing, would it?

...NoOOOooo, of course not!

P.S. I love it when burger-eating attack monkeys defend the use of torture. Even if everyone else forgets what they said, in the back of their heads, they'll always know they did it. I just wish they would broadcast their support for torture louder and to a wider audience.

...Tell us again...why is it okay to torture people? Should we differentiate between terrorists and...? Are we bending the use of the word "torture" to include...? This is war, isn't it? Tell us again...

|1.1.05 @ 7:32PM|#

So if a thrill-killer used these techniques on the girl he grabbed before killing her, would he qualify for the death penalty because of the aggravating circumstance of "torture?"

Of. Course. He. Would.

|1.1.05 @ 8:41PM|#

joe, would you want to hand down a death sentence to somebody who can suffocate you by using The Force?

|1.1.05 @ 10:06PM|#

Look, asking me what I'd want to happen to somebody in a black mask who throttled me with the Force is just a way of saying I'm soft on crime. I'm not soft on crime.

joe S. Dukakis

|1.2.05 @ 10:20AM|#

Crime? What crime? Lord Vader was using legal and approved techniques for wringing out the truth from an unlawful combatant (See Conversations with the Emperor, v. III, p. 1370). That's just like you, Mr. Dukakis, to attack the Empire's legitimate authority to protect us from these rebel terrorists. What's next, a protest about the rezoning of Alderaan?

|1.2.05 @ 12:40PM|#

I find nothing in case law or the Geneva Conventions to suggest that asphyxiation is torture.

|1.2.05 @ 3:45PM|#

Ray:

It's war. If we need to use certain methods to obtain information that will shorten the war, save lives and generally be in the best interest of troops/civilians then there should be no limits.

Of course there should be limits and that limit should be that no torture what so ever is permitted. You want to allow savagery if the government can make justification that it was for some cause. Your utilitarian excuses run counter to the fundamental idea of our republic, the sanctity of thre individual. A ramification of this idea is to limit what may be imposed on a small group for the good of the majority.

Full disclosure: I consider the sentiment of that part of your post to be so un-American that you might as well be spitting on the flag. Your post disgusted me.

|1.2.05 @ 8:07PM|#

Everyone remember the Analogies in the SATs?

Torturing a terrorist in a "ticking bomb" scenario : Torturing prisoners as part of ordindary intelligence operations :: Shooting enemy soldiers on a battlefield : Shooting POWs

|1.3.05 @ 4:47PM|#

joe,

Even in that scenario, we can't make it legal. I admit that we can imagine some pretty compelling nightmares but, beside the transgression against justice that is committed when torture occurs, there is just too much room for the government to use that type of a scenario as an excuse. Now, if the president issues an emergency executive order to torture in this type of scenario and the ticking bomb turns out to be real, and the victim of the torture is found to have been able to reveal critical information, that's one thing. If both of these conditions do not obtain, then it's impeachment time.

Did Bush authorize any torture in Iraq or Gitmo? If so, he should be impeached for sure as there's not even the allegation of a ticking bomb.

|1.3.05 @ 5:36PM|#

Oh yeah, I'm really not down with executive orders
in general. It's like the pres. gets to be King if he really wants to. What kind of limited government is that?

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