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All Hallow's Out
There's a breed of fundamentalist Christian that protests whenever a school celebrates Halloween and thus, by their lights, promotes witchcraft. Now those easily offended Christians have some unlikely allies: easily offended witches.
KIRO-TV reports:
There will be no Halloween parties at one school district in Washington state.
Puyallup School District spokeswoman Karen Hansen said school officials have been reviewing the Halloween tradition and decided that time could be better spent.
According to a Seattle TV station, Hanson said there were three reasons that the parties will be canceled. The first reason was that Halloween parties and parades waste valuable classroom time. The second reason was that some families can't afford costumes. The third reason is that it may offend real witches.
She said schools have had complaints from followers of the Wiccan religion who are offended at the way Halloween is celebrated. Hansen said schools are teaching students to be respectful and take account of the discomfort felt by others.
She said that witches with pointy noses are not "respective symbols of the Wiccan religion" and that their district wants to be respectful of that.
She said any students who show up in a costume might be sent home.
Reminds me of an incident I wrote about in the early '90s, when a school district in Iowa City told students they couldn't dress as witches because the costumes could be frightening (!) and had "religious connotations." One girl decided to go as a cheerleader instead. I can't imagine any self-respecting Wiccan approving of that.
|10.21.04 @ 5:31PM|#
Was she a scary cheeleader with a long pointy nose and a hairy mole on her chin?
|10.21.04 @ 5:31PM|#
Since we now have to kowtow to the Wiccans, let me be the first to say that I, for one, welcome our new Wiccan overlords.
|10.21.04 @ 5:34PM|#
This is perhaps the stupidest thing that has ever
happened.
Tomorrow, I'm going to start a cult (sorry, religion) and call the
participants "public schools," then have public schools outlawed,
since they don't represent "public schools" (my cult members)
respectively.
|10.21.04 @ 5:34PM|#
I wonder if one factor in the overall rightward/Republican drift of American politics in the last decade or so has been a reaction to this sort of wacky political correctness.
|10.21.04 @ 5:40PM|#
Isn't hostility to Halloween because Christians find it offensive, which would probably be identified with that "rightward/Republican drift," precisely the same kind of "wacky political correctness"?
|10.21.04 @ 5:41PM|#
I wonder if one factor in the overall rightward/Republican
drift of American politics in the last decade or so has been a
reaction to this sort of wacky political correctness.
Schwa?
|10.21.04 @ 6:17PM|#
Gee, these were the LAST guys I would ever think would go after
Halloween. Certainly the Fundies. My born-again uncle says he
locking his children indoors on 10-31 to keep the satanist child
molesters from getting at them. But the WICCANS??? Don't they
celebrate the celtic feast of Samhain or something?
I mean come on, the Wiccan have turned Salem, Mass. into a New Age
haven thanks to those Puritan dopes in the 1600s. Why should this
piss them off?
fyodor|10.21.04 @ 6:28PM|#
Julian,
Personally, I find them both types of Halloween complaint
ridiculous, but there are differences between them.
Christians who protest Halloween are doing so on the grounds that
it promotes beliefs at odds with their own and which they consider
dangerous. Even aside from my disbelief in Christianity generally,
this would certainly seem to take a kiddie's holiday way too
seriously. OTOH, if one's belief system includes taking witches and
goblins quite seriously as manifestations of Satanic forces, one
might be quite logical to proceed (albeit from a dubious premise)
to the conclusion that the schools are out of line to be treating
such stuff as good clean fun. You'd think the whole nation would be
possessed by the Dark One if celebrating Halloween had such an
effect...but then, there are probably those who think just
that!
The Wiccan thing would be more of a matter of stereotyping and
seems to rest on the notion that kids are going to think all
practitioners of Wicca as the ugly witches of yore and lore. Maybe
Wiccans just shouldn't use the term "witch" if they're really
worried about that? I imagine some probably quite like the
association.
Anyway, which one those two forms of Halloween protest is more
"wacky" or more likely to create a backlash among mainstream types
who just like to see kids having fun, I shall leave alone.
fyodor|10.21.04 @ 6:40PM|#
Akria MacKenzie,
I think most Wiccans like Halloween just fine. But remember,
there's one in every crowd. And notice that the complaints come
from "followers of the Wiccan religion who are offended at the
way Halloween is celebrated." Perhaps they feel their sacred
rites are being profaned, blah blah...
|10.21.04 @ 6:44PM|#
"...if one's belief system includes taking witches and goblins
quite seriously as manifestations of Satanic forces..."
If you think that's fun, hang around the JREF (James Randi
Educational Foundation) Forum where the Fundies who come on
actually agree with the New Age goofballs that psychic powers are
real with one minor exception: Psychics get their powers from the
Devil.
Now, I think that John Edward is a con-man who preys on the
grieving, but I seriously doubt that he's a follower of
Lucifer.
"Anyway, which one those two forms of Halloween protest is more
"wacky" or more likely to create a backlash among mainstream types
who just like to see kids having fun, I shall leave alone."
Kids??? Why should they get all the fun. Each Halloween I get
together with some friends, dress up in costumes (I went as Cpt.
Kirk last year, complete with gold shirt, phaser, girdle and
toupee), cook up a big pot of chili or manwich for dinner, watch
some cheesy horror movies on the big screen, and/or play a session
of Call Of Cthulhu.
Good clean entertainment that any Fundie is sure to condemn!
|10.21.04 @ 6:48PM|#
Fyodor - Nice post, but don't you think its a quite presumptious and self-important of the Wiccans to think 8 year olds dressing up for candy will make any association whatsoever between Halloween and "legitimate everyday witchcraft". As if the kids, outside of the childen of Wiccans, are even aware there is such a thing as a Wiccan.
|10.21.04 @ 6:48PM|#
"I think most Wiccans like Halloween just fine."
Oh I'm sure that's true, just as most mainstream Christians are
more than willing to let their kids celebrate All-Hallows Eve.
However, I've read one too many Ray Bradbury stories as a kid and
the notion that some group of Fuddy-Duddies, be they Fundie or
Wiccan,stomping on Halloween really ticks me off.
|10.21.04 @ 7:03PM|#
I'm so glad that everyone worries about the birth of their lord and saviour, me, every Halloween. :)
fyodor|10.21.04 @ 7:08PM|#
agentalbert,
You're absolutely right, most kids have never heard of Wicca, and I
almost brought that up too. But, to give them the benefit of the
doubt, maybe it's their own kids (and/or kids of friends or
relatives who know them and know they're "witches") that they're
concerned about getting such an awful wrong impression. Of course,
they set themselves up for such when they decided to call
themselves witches!
|10.21.04 @ 8:01PM|#
Back in the bad old days when I was a wee lad nobody cared if we
called it Christmas Vacation.
Despite popular revision to the contrary, we rarely to never had
prayer in public school.
And no christian types had a problem with the annual Halloween
carnival at my elementary school. Or if they did, they kept the
kids home that day.
Fer Chrissakes it's just a bunch of kids having fun.
WTF is the matter with people these days?
|10.21.04 @ 8:18PM|#
Fer Chrissakes it's just a bunch of kids having
fun.
And we must put a stop to it! For the
children!
Wirkman Virkkala|10.21.04 @ 8:50PM|#
On Sunday I blogged a peculiar article regarding this year's
Hallowe'en, which falls on ... a Sunday. Horrors! Many Christian
fundamentalists in the South are all upset. It was quite droll. I
also put a link to something I wrote in the '90s, about an
ecumenical group in the Puget Sound area (where Jesse's story came
from) trying to make Hallowe'en an "interfaith" holiday. That, too,
was droll.
I guess whenever symbols and values and the (nonexistent)
supernatural collide, we're bound to get nonsense. And of course,
in all this the real meaning (!) of Hallowe'en gets lost. And kids
must put up with more posturing by adults. From the outside, it
looks rather as if adults just can't stand children being the focus
of a major holiday.
|10.21.04 @ 8:50PM|#
I worked at a Halloween haunted forest once. It was on grounds
owned by, and employed a lot of regulars from a summer Renaissance
faire, the upshot of which was that maybe 120% of the staff was
some kind of pagan. There was an evil, scary old crone character at
one point which, of course, someone found slanderous to
witches, & reinforced negative stereotypes & nature &
herbal medicine & strong women & the Burning Times (which
are, of course, the Hitler in the pagan Godwin's Law) &ct.
&ct.
The way this was resolved, if I remember correctly, was by
developing for the character a background and motivations which
placed her firmly on the "bad" side of all the offended parties'
theologies. None of this, of course, was communicated to the
audience in any way, with the scene proceeding as previously
planned.
|10.21.04 @ 9:13PM|#
So...you would all be cool with a school encouraging kids to come in on Yom Kippur dressed as cartoon rabbis, with big honking noses, long forelocks, etc.?
|10.21.04 @ 9:23PM|#
Back in '91, my youngest was a second-grader in a midwestern
city. We got a note home from his public school teacher saying
there would be no observation of Halloween in her classroom. She
was a fundamentalist Xian and believed the holiday to be inspired
by Lord Lucifer.
Today, I represent an agency whose developmentally disabled adult
clients tonite are going to a party at a church hall they rented;
at the last minute they were told they could not issue flyers
calling it a "Halloween Party" if the event was to occur at that
church, and could not employ clip art depicting ghosts, goblins
& etc. So, the flyers went out advertsing a "Fall Harvest
Festival" with pumpkins and acorns. (But they are permitted a
costume contest.)
Julian, this all predates P.C. Back in the 60s my best friend's
fundie parents would not let her trick-or-treat.
Anyhoo, I agree with the poster who recommended the entertainment
at the James Randi Educational Foundation forum; watching the
fundies agree with the woo-woo New Agers that the latter possess
psychic and other paranormal abilities, but disagreeing as to the
source of these powers (they are all bestowed by the fallen angel,
Satan, aka Beelzabub, if you really want to know), can be a
hoot.
Reason ought not JUST be about free minds and free markets, but
also the approach to extraordinary claims, conventionally religious
and otherwise.
--Mona--
|10.21.04 @ 9:38PM|#
joe-
There's a HUGE difference between mocking rabbis and dressing up as
a cartoon witch. Witches are basically scary people who use magic.
Stories of witches have existed in cultures around the world long
before. The halloween witch bears little resemblance to Wiccans,
and it is only by a misunderstanding that it is associated with
Wicca.
The cartoon rabbis, on the other hand, are caricatures specifically
created to insult Jews.
A rather large difference, wouldn't you say?
Besides, Jews who get offended by those cartoon rabbis are
responding to a deliberate insult. The Wiccans in question here
were looking for a reason to be offended. And if they really want
to be offended, I say we should oblige them and let the kids dress
up as witches.
|10.21.04 @ 9:56PM|#
Symbols....
Yeah that peace sign on Reason's front door is really a broken
inverted cross. Sign of Satan I tell ya.
My fruitcake sister won't let her son see Harry Potter movies or
read the books because it's, you guessed it.........
|10.21.04 @ 10:05PM|#
Oh yeah, and this stuff is just one more reason on a grocery
list of reasons why public education should be abolished.
Maybe Badnarak should use that as a campaign theme. :-)
|10.21.04 @ 10:10PM|#
"My fruitcake sister won't let her son see Harry Potter movies
or read the books because it's, you guessed it........."
Besides his opposition to Halloween, my Fundie uncle also won't
have mention of Santa among his children. Not just because "Jesus
is the reason for the season," but also because St. Nicholas is a
"papist" concept.
|10.21.04 @ 10:23PM|#
A question: How many times have anti-Halloween fundies been
successful at canceling school Halloween parties? What would have
this Washington government school's administration done if the
protest was coming from Christians and not Wiccans?
I went to Catholic schools K-12, and I do not remember any
particular problem with Halloween for Catholics. Though, probably,
the kind of Chhristian who protests Halloween is not terribly fond
of Catholics, either. I do remember my kindergarten class going to
Mass in costume on All Saint's Day (if memory serves), for some
reason my costume was a devil.
|10.21.04 @ 10:57PM|#
A high school friend of mine came in on Haloween dressed as a
Jehovah's Witness, and went around beating anyone dressed as a
devil with his Bible, screaming "The power of Christ compels
you!"
A good time was had by all
|10.22.04 @ 12:40AM|#
Joe:
Of course we'd be offended if kids showed up in school on Yom
Kippur pretending to be Jews. On Yom Kippur we don't go to public
school. However, if you want to dress up on Purim...it'd be cool
with me.
Jesse Walker|10.22.04 @ 12:50AM|#
The real question is: What if you dressed up as Jews for Halloween?
|10.22.04 @ 12:53AM|#
Akria, St Nick? Papist? I thought St Nick was the brainchild of those child molesting porn consuming Scandanavians. Weel, of course in those days they weren't.
|10.22.04 @ 1:17AM|#
He's a Catholic saint TWC, evangelicals aren't really big on sainthood unless they're Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John.
|10.22.04 @ 1:26AM|#
It could be having something to do with people's having an idea that their opinion have same value as other. Of course, the value of a drunk, too passed out to see clearly, would have a different value from an eagle-eyed Nancy Drew!
|10.22.04 @ 1:34AM|#
So...you would all be cool with a school encouraging kids to
come in on Yom Kippur dressed as cartoon rabbis, with big honking
noses, long forelocks, etc.?
Joe -
In spite of all the claims to the contrary by modern witches, there
is no history of persecution of Wiccans, because there is basically
no history of Wiccans. It's a religion that was started in
the 1950's, though it does draw elements from older religions. Now,
many (most?) Wiccans will tell you that there is continuity with
the ancient Celtic religion(s), or with the pre-Christian faiths of
Europe, and some even go on about the "Burning Times" when witches
were persecuted in Europe. But it's all mythology, kind of like
many of the Christian martyrs. :-) Most witches burned in Europe
were lonely old women or other victims, not witches in the Wiccan
sense. Besides which, the whole insistence on being called
"witches" by Wiccans is just silly. Whatever its roots, "witch"
today carries a negative connotation. It's like libertarians
insisting on being called "liberals," and then getting offended
when the negative connotations brought up by that word get in the
way. There's nothing you can do about it; language changes, get
over it, Wiccans. :-)
Akria, St Nick? Papist? I thought St Nick was the brainchild of
those child molesting porn consuming Scandanavians. Weel, of course
in those days they weren't.
St. Nicholas was the Bishop of Myra in the fourth century, and
attended the Council of Nicaea. He's a saint in the Catholic and
Orthodox churches. So yeah, St. Nicholas is definitely a "papist"
idea; the whole idea of saints is considered silly at best among
conservative Protestants. For something less . . . tame, go here
for the real low-down on Santa Claus. Or is that "Satan
Lucas/Lucifer"? Hmmmm?
http://www.av1611.org/othpubls/santa.html
|10.22.04 @ 2:28AM|#
The term "Halloween" refers to "All Hallow's Eve," or the night
before All Saints Day, a Christian holiday. To try and relabel it a
"Harvest Festival" is ironic, considering that this kind of
political correctness backfires.
After all, in many older cultures a Harvest festival is a time to
celebrate the growing season by honoring the pagan gods who
provided the bounty.
I seriously question whether people who are so dogmatic as to
relabel a holiday in order to disrespect their Catholic origins--
and instead fall smack-dab into honoring animism-- can really be
called Christian. It's just plain idiotic.
And yes, I am an evangelical Xn . . . but not a Fundy. There is a
difference, you know. Unfortunately, sometimes not much. I think it
was Mark Noll (an evangelical Xn scholar) who said something like,
"The problem with the Evangelical [intellectual] Mind is that there
is none." *sigh*
|10.22.04 @ 2:47AM|#
"The real question is: What if you dressed up as Jews for
Halloween?"
Interesting question. I guess it depends on how much the costume
played up stereotypes or unflattering physical caricatures.
If a guy dressed up as a Hasidic Jew, with the side curls and
whatnot, but pretty much played it straight, would that be
offensive?
Even if stereotyping ... What if someone dressed up as the Hebrew Hammer? I don't
think it could be anything but funny. (If you don't know who the
Hebrew Hammer is, you have GOT to follow the link -- but beware:
loud sounds.)
As a Roman Catholic, I wouldn't find it offensive if someone
dressed up as an identifiably Catholic figure. Such as a nun. Or a
priest. Or a Catholic schoolgirl. Actually, I like it when
a woman dresses as a Catholic schoolgirl. Er, an over-18 Catholic
schoolgirl.
|10.22.04 @ 3:32AM|#
So...you would all be cool with a school encouraging kids to
come in on Yom Kippur dressed as cartoon rabbis, with big honking
noses, long forelocks, etc.?
Jesus H. Keerist on a crutch. Some people are so muddled with
political correctness, they seem to fail to grasp even the simplest
of concepts. Wiccans aren't a RACE for fuck sake. And witches
(which don't exist, by the way... hello? lights on? Don't care what
anyone calls themselves) certainly aren't a race, either. Witches
are a part of folklore- and witches as portrayed during Halloween
(er, excuse me, Harvest Festival(tm) times) are of a particular
type, known to fly around on brooms cast spells (which actually do
something). They are based on what people of YORE THOUGHT witches
did. If the wiccans can produce a witch who flys around on a broom
and casts spells, then I might rethink my stance on this.
And furthermore, Halloween goes much further than witches.
Halloween is about dressing up in costumes of all kinds: firemen,
celebrities, mummies, vampires (Can't wait until some 'Goth' group
gets offended by that). Wicca is a modern and recent religion (with
no real central principles) inspired BY western pre-christian
beliefs and folklore. Wicca is akin to me taking some ideals from a
broad group of people say, 3000 years ago(more or less) then
inventing a religion around it and claiming that 'my religion is
really, really old... 'n stuff' to entice some over-educated white
folks to join.
Paul
|10.22.04 @ 3:39AM|#
Jesse:
The real question is: What if you dressed up as Jews for
Halloween?
First I laughed, then in horror, I realized you might just be
serious. Jesse, what do Jews dress like? Perhaps you mean Hasidic
Jews?
Paul
|10.22.04 @ 4:57AM|#
"What do Jews dress like?"
Well, if they're the Hebrew Hammer, they dress kind of
like Shaft, only more Jewish.
http://www.thehebrewhammer.com/
Go. Listen to the theme song.
"He's a complicated Jewwww ... and no one understands him but his
muthah ..."
|10.22.04 @ 6:12AM|#
If I were to dress as a Jew for Halloween, I'd go for
Judah "The Hammer of God" Maccabee, fron Nexus.*
The Catholic holiday of All Saint's Day is an example of the new
religion squatting on the temporal territory claimed by the old
religion, in this case the Celtic feast of Samhain. The same thing
happened with Christmas and the feast of Sol Invictus, not to
mention the Saturnalia. The Christians dropped their Feast of the
Resurrection right on top of that of Ishtar, and we still call it
Easter. No doubt, if we tunnel down we will find still older
precursors of the supplanted celebrations, that were replaced in
their turn. Modern pagans may have revived the closest
approximation of the old religion that they could, but Halloween's
connection to the netherworld is a folk memory of the beliefs of
the ancient Celts, for whom Samhain was a time when the border
between the world of the living and the dead became
permeable.
There has been a big push by teachers to use the Mexican version of
All Saints' Day, el Dia de los Muertos, in their
classrooms, especially in areas with growing Latino populations.
I'd say that there's a difference between teaching about a
culture's festivals and actually celebrating their religious
elements. A good geography or social studies teacher could lead the
kids through the evolution of these days, showing how a new set of
customs is imposed, or emerges from events such as the rise of a
new faith, or conquest. A bad one just treats it like Disney's
Small World.
I don't see how one could satisfy Fundie parents who don't want
their children exposed to the baneful influence of the Adversary
that results from a classmate wearing a Ben Cooper Hot
Stuff+ outfit without actually lying about Halloween's
origins.
As a Catholic schoolkid, we didn't do any Halloween activities on
school time. Costumes were donned at home, and trick-or-treating
was performed until as late as we could get away with. Next morning
we had to do church, but there was no school. This last bit was
related to our friends imprisoned in public schools, until they
were ready to stuff unwrapped Snickers down our throats.
These parents should really get behind school choice. Not only will
they be able to warp their kids the way they think they ought to
go, but the other parents won't have to put up with their
particular use for broomsticks: DIY colonoscopy.
Kevin
* http://www.internationalhero.co.uk/j/judah.htm
+ http://home.att.net/~thft/hot.htm
|10.22.04 @ 8:40AM|#
kevrob,
You're right about the "baptism" of Samhain after the Church began
to spread into Celtic lands. But Easter and Christmas are quite a
different story.
Easter is the Sunday after the 3000+ year old Jewish celebration of
Passover. It coincides with a bunch of pagan springtime festivals,
but that's just coincidence.
Dec. 25 was the date originally (and probably mistakenly)
calculated as Christ's birthday in the 5th century. Perhaps it was
played up as an alternative to Sol/Saturnalia, but the date has an
independent origin.
|10.22.04 @ 8:53AM|#
"Halloween is about dressing up in costumes of all kinds:
firemen, celebrities, mummies, vampires (Can't wait until some
'Goth' group gets offended by that)."
We are offended, mundane one. We have our fat girls writing bad
poetry about it as we speak.
|10.22.04 @ 9:24AM|#
"Jews who get offended by those cartoon rabbis are responding to
a deliberate insult. The Wiccans in question here were looking for
a reason to be offended."
So a Jew who is offended when he overhears someone saying "That
mechanic jewed me out of 20 bucks!" has no right to be so? If the
prejudice is so ingrained that people don't even have to make an
effort to express it, it ceases to be offensive?
"Whatever its roots, "witch" today carries a negative connotation."
Yes, sort of like "jew" in certain circles (mainstream American
culture, 80 or so years ago, for example).
That's really what this controversy is about - a certain prejudice,
against pagans, is so ingrained that people aren't even away it's a
prejudice, consider it fun an inoffensive, consider anyone
knowledgeable enough to get why it's offensive to be crazy, and
feel oppressed when people are insulted by the insults, because
they aren't deliberate.
Three steps to social change - dismissive laughter, violent
opposition, acceptance as conventional wisdom.
John M. Joy|10.22.04 @ 9:42AM|#
I dunno... I'm not necessarily all that opposed - ignoring for
the moment that I'm opposed to the concept of "public" education as
such - to a district wanting to use the school day for the business
of education, and leave the partying to others, afterward. That
being said...
Methinks the objection to the costumes, etc., at Halloween may be
not so much a Wiccan thing as a feminist thing. Quoting
from the introductory material in The Political Palate,
a cookbook by the Bloodroot
Collective (who run a feminist vegetarian restaurant in
Bridgeport, Connecticut):
To us the humorous portrayal of witches at Halloween is comparable to malicious concentration camp jokes about Jews.
FWIW, a few pages earlier:
To us, being feminists or women-oriented means celebrating holidays which predate Judaism and Christianity. The solstices and equinoxes are closed to the earth's rhythms, and celebrating the waning and growing light, seeds sprouting or the harvest brought in, makes more sense than the obscenity of noise and false jollity that is Christmas/New Years, or the celebration of masochism/martyrdom that is Easter.
(All this aside, the cookbook does have some decent recipes -
haven't had a chance to go to the restaurant yet.)
JMJ
P.S. On a lighter note: a friend of mine had the opportunity to
attend a Halloween party at a Catholic college in Pennsylvania some
years back. He dressed as Christ on the cross. Hilarity
ensued.
|10.22.04 @ 10:13AM|#
In my relatively short adult life, I've already seen attempts to
amend the Constitution to outlaw flag-burning and gay weddings, by
people who were not HARMED by these behaviors, but merely OFFENDED
by them. How long will it be, now, before someone proposes the
following amendment: "The right of Americans to be free of offense,
shall not be abridged in any way."
When I was teaching, I would string colored Christmas lights all
around the corners of my classroom, but I couldn't CALL them
Christmas lights without getting in trouble. Therefore, I always
made a point of telling my classes: "These are NOT Christmas
lights; these are non-sectarian winter holiday lights." I'm an
atheist, but I know there's a difference between celebrating a
holiday versus actual religious persecution. Why haven't the
Wiccans been able to figure this out, too?
|10.22.04 @ 10:29AM|#
I just can't figure it all out. Growing up in South Alabama in the late 50's early 60's we had a Halloween Fair at the school and had Halloween parties at the church. (Southern Baptist) Now, Halloween is seen as evil. I dress up as the Headless Horseman and ride my champaigne palomino horse around the community and scare the beejeebers out of the kids and some adults.
|10.22.04 @ 10:31AM|#
Joe-
It occurred to me that you "Jew=Wiotch" argument is fallacious.
Jews existed first, long before Christians came along and decided
to brand them "Christ-killers," whereas 'witch' had a negative
connotation long before people decided to label themselves as such.
It's like if I invented a religion or philosophy and demanded that
my followers refer to themselves as "Baby-killing crack whores,"
and then got offended to discover that the phrase "Baby-killing
crack whore" has a negative connotation.
Maybe Wiccans should abandon the word 'witch' and adopt a more
accurate term, like "New Age followers of a religion invented
during the Eisenhower administration."
Highway|10.22.04 @ 10:36AM|#
Jennifer, I'm afraid you're right about the future amendment. Maybe more people need to read Jonathan Rauch's book Kindly Inquisitors. I thought it was a nice take on that idea.
|10.22.04 @ 11:31AM|#
Interesting, Jennifer. But I don't think the "invented during
the Eisenhower administration" really captures the history. The
"negative connotation" that adheres to the idea of witches goes
back to when Christians were actively working to destroy a religion
that did actually exist, one that had a pedigree longer than that
of Christianity itself. Part of this campaign involved creating
popular imagery that discredited the religion - by turning the
respected crone into a figure of evil and ridicule, among other
things. Another part involved the torture and murder of the
religion's leaders and adherents. Yet another involved the
appropriation of the pagan holidays, and stripping them of their
meaning.
So now, because the second part of the campaign was so successful
that the number of practitioners is relatively small (though
growing), we should accept the first and third parts as normal,
appropriate, right, and free of the taint of religious
prejudice?
|10.22.04 @ 11:43AM|#
joe-
If the Wiccans only objected to little kids dressing as witches
then I might see your point. Maybe.
But they're objecting to Halloween overall on the grounds that it
was (allegedly) originally a Wiccan holiday that got appropriated
by everybody else. What if a Mexican kid shows up with some sort of
decorations for Dia De Los Muertos? Mexicans were celebrating the
Day of the Dead long before any of them encountered a Wiccan
(indeed, the holiday pre-dates European contact) so you can't
accuse them of being insensitive and stealing from Wiccans.
Bottom line is that if Wiccans are upset over the fact that "their"
holiday was stolen, well, too bad. The point is that we have this
holiday that we celebrate on Oct. 31. It may have (allegedly) been
inspired by Wicca, but it's a distinct holiday in its own right.
Modern Wiccans don't get a veto over what anybody else does on Oct.
31. My Chinese friends could always claim that they were
celebrating harvest festivals long before Wiccans existed, and it's
no fair for Wiccans to steal "their" harvest festival.
Consider this: Do Christians get a veto over how everybody else
celebrates during December? Of course not. If we did, then the
Zoroastrians might show up and argue that we "stole" Christmas from
them. (I don't know the details, but I've heard claims that the
Christmas story with the virgin birth and 3 kings and shepherds was
"stolen" from the Zoroastrians. Maybe it was, maybe it wasn't.
Doesn't really matter.)
Hmm, maybe the Wiccans could claim that they are simply a
continuating of ancient nature-worship religions, so any
celebration in late December is really stolen from THEM, and hence
Christmas is a holiday stolen from Zoroastrians who stole from the
Wiccans.
Final thought: The "pursuit of happiness" is written into the
Declaration of Independence. "Freedom from insult" isn't found in
either the Declaration of Independence OR the Constitution.
Hmm...
|10.22.04 @ 12:14PM|#
"Fundies are Fundies whether they quote the Bible or the
Goddess" - posted on the bumper of my friend the Orthodox
Druid
The real issue here is the whole PC "somebody night be offended, so
we can't do this" mindset, which apparently leads to total
paralysis in some public institutions.
There is NO fundamental right to "Freedom from Being Offended by
Others" The closest we come is "the Mad Hungarian can drop you at
300 yards with his Lee-Enfield Mk III - it is unwise to offend him
greatly!"
|10.22.04 @ 12:44PM|#
"by turning the respected crone into a figure of evil and
ridicule"
You're kidding, right? You could be a letter to the editor at The
Onion at this point.
Maybe you should check the timeline. Wicca was invented in the the
1930s, became public in the 50s, and Wiccans started calling
themselves "witches" far more recently than that.
Find another bleeding heart cause to flog.
|10.22.04 @ 12:46PM|#
See what government-run schools get us? Strange debates about
the line between "fun" and "offensive". I've seen incredibly rude
and offensive Halloween costumes plenty of times over the years.
Crucified Christs, male and female body parts, Nazis (that takes
guts), etc., etc., etc. Obviously, those costumes were worn by
adults, but the point is that we generally have an intuitive
understanding of where the line is and where you can get away with
crossing it. Some people are going to be offended by anything you
do--but that's their problem. I, for one, don't accept
what joe has been saying--the path he's describing leads to the
heckler's veto, where one person can stop any kind of
expression. That's a terrible idea.
We should be civil to others, and we should take into account
their sensitivities (even if they aren't entirely rational), but
all of that should be a decision we make as individuals not one
imposed upon us. Certainly, anyone who goes out of his way to
offend someone else faces disfavor from people besides the offended
one.
Returning to the topic of witches, I dated a witch in high school (no kidding). She was a babe, and she didn't openly say witch things (I found out after we were dating). On the other hand, I weighed her, and she weighed more than a duck. Hmmmm.
|10.22.04 @ 12:57PM|#
Hey, thoreau, not to claim that I've met members of all minority religions, but I actually did have a friend who was a Zoroastrian in college. The religion has a few hundred thousand followers left in India, I believe. Anyway, he just about fell over when I identified the supreme being of his religion as Ahura Mazda. Pure coincidence, but I had just read Vidal's Creation, which dealt with Persia back when Zoroastrism still reigned supreme.
As I understand it, there are a lot of bits and pieces of the old religion weaved into the brand of Islam practiced in Iran (e.g., their use of icons). It's fairly well known and accepted that Zoroastrism has deeply influenced Christianity, but what's not as commonly known is how much of an influence it had on Judaism as well. So, all of the major western religions can trace their roots to that old guy Nietzsche wrote about :)
|10.22.04 @ 1:00PM|#
Sorry, thoreau, she predated my training in witch identification (in other words, I didn't see Holy Grail until a little later), so I didn't know to check. Fortunately, she did not turn me into a newt. Or, if she did, I must've gotten better or something.
|10.22.04 @ 1:33PM|#
FWIW: Wiccans & other pagans, witches, feminists, blah blah
blah differ a lot on what to do about the "ugly old crone" witch
stereotype. There are actually quite a few--I know a bunch
locally--who dress up as pointy-hatted "witches" themselves and
have a grand old time celebrating it instead of trying to get
Halloween outlawed in schools or wherever.
Also FWIW--I think the growth and visibility of Wicca etc has a LOT
to do with the fundies' growing anti-Halloween and
anti-Harry-Potter hysteria. The fact that their kids can walk into
any big book store now and find out all about various forms of
contemporary neo-paganism--and maybe even decided they want to
become one--has them scared to death, so they're doing everything
they can to get those references removed from anyplace their kids
might be, and failing that, demonize the hell out of it, so to
speak.
|10.22.04 @ 1:40PM|#
Hey, you all, don't you know the real holiday on Oct. 31 is Nevada Admissions Day? Ahh, the joyful memories of having the day off when I was in (public) school in the 70's and 80's. Lousy immigrants changed it to the last Monday in October. BOOOO. :-) :-) :-)
|10.22.04 @ 2:11PM|#
JDM, I don't really give a fuck about your not giving a fuck
about other people.
Jennifer, I agree with you about overlapping holidays. It's the
"stereotyping people by religion" bit I object to. We wouldn't put
up with it if it was a religion most people were familiar with, or
if the stereotyping wasn't so common.
Now, the fact that people don't intend to offend Wiccans, or
continue a tradition that is comparable to black-faced minstrel
shows, is certainly relevant to the question of whether they, as
individuals, are doing something wrong. For the same reason, I
can't get too down on someone in 1890s Boston for perpetuating
stereotypes about Jews. But that doesn't mean that, in the
aggregate, there isn't a problem with the tradition.
|10.22.04 @ 2:29PM|#
Joe-
The long-nosed wart-faced evil ugly witch stereotype predates Wicca
by a long shot. Furthermore, the witch stereotype refers to a
mythical, semi-supernatural being with magical, malignant powers
derived from a pact with a supernatural force of evil. Wiccans
chose to label themselves with this inaccurate term; any problems
they encounter as a result are for THEM to deal with.
Here's a serious question/analogy for you: On an episode of Penn
& Teller's "Bullshit!" dealing with death, I saw a couple of
modern-day 'vampires'who were basically a couple of black-wearing
Goth extremists who occasionally made small slits in each other's
wrists and sucked out small amounts of each other's blood in a
scene with seriously creepy sexual overtones. And, of course, they
referred to themselves as "Vampires," and I think they believed
they were going to manage to avoid Death but I'm not too sure about
the last part. I have also met a few people who call themselves
'Vampires' and went so far as to have artificial fangs surgically
implanted in their jaws.
Suppose this catches on, and soon the number of Vampire-Americans
is equal or even greater than the number of Wiccans. In order to
avoid offending the Vampire-American community, should we disallow
kids from dressing up as evil members of the walking undead who
insist upon talking in bad Transylvanian accents?
|10.22.04 @ 2:48PM|#
"In order to avoid offending the Vampire-American community,
should we disallow kids from dressing up as evil members of the
walking undead who insist upon talking in bad Transylvanian
accents?"
The answer is obviously yes. If you say otherwise, you just don't
love your fellow man.
|10.22.04 @ 2:58PM|#
Sorry, "fellow non-gender or species specific beings" not
"man."
I thousand apologies for that ugly outburst of un-joe-like hate
mongering. May I be flogged on the (of course synthetic) Tree of
PC-Apostates. (Which should in no way be taken to reflect badly on
apostates from other more apostate-worthy causes.)
I also apologize to anyone named "Tad" (or called "Dad" for that
matter) who might be offended by the connotations of my use of
"bad" in my last sentence. (Which should not be taken to imply that
they should. I love my dad, as everyone should.) (Sorry if your dad
was a drunk who beat you, and you rightly hate him. Didn't mean to
imply that you were wrong to do so. Although, I know it wasn't his
fault. Some of my best friends are alchol-inclined, really, no
blame intended to be spread to alcholics.)
|10.22.04 @ 3:21PM|#
Call me a bigot if you must, but if I had a daughter I wouldn't want her to marry a Vampo-American.
|10.22.04 @ 4:27PM|#
"The long-nosed wart-faced evil ugly witch stereotype predates
Wicca by a long shot."
I suppose that depends on how you define Wicca, whether you
consider Wiccans to be legitimate followers of the tradition that
began before writing was invented. But your attempt to claim no
relation between the wicked witch concept and historical witches is
disingenuous. The "mythical, semi-supernatural being with magical,
malignant powers derived from a pact with a supernatural force of
evil" stereotype is derived from the image put forth in medieval
times by the Church to demonize (literally) practitions of pagan
rites. In a sense, your argument is equivalent to saying that black
people shouldn't be offended by minstrel shows because black people
aren't really like that.
JDM,
There there. Need a hug?
|10.22.04 @ 4:45PM|#
Joe:
Interesting, Jennifer. But I don't think the "invented during
the Eisenhower administration" really captures the history. The
"negative connotation" that adheres to the idea of witches goes
back to when Christians were actively working to destroy a religion
that did actually exist
Joe, that's exactly where you'd be wrong. Wicca was started by a
man named Gardener in the 50's. Oh, and Wiccans themselves claim
that their religion predated christians, but their history is
hidden because they were persecuted. If their religion was around
before the christians, then who the hell was persecuting them then?
Let me introduce you to a very excellent site on Wiccans. Oh, and I
need to say this before I paste in the url: It's a site run and
produced by a Wiccan. I offer you:
www.whywiccanssuck.com
I fear that you have bought into the popular mainstream 'Wiccan'
view of their own 'religion'. I strongly suggest reading his
FAQ.
Paul
|10.22.04 @ 4:47PM|#
Oh, for everyone's interest:
I just created a religion called Seattle Seahawkism. And I'm really
offended by people who dress up in Jerseys marked 'Seahawks' and do
things like face painting and getting all drunk. It makes us look
bad. These people offend me, and it's a practice which should stop
NOW.
|10.22.04 @ 4:56PM|#
joe,
If you don't get why the chronology makes your line of "argument"
even more non-sensical than it otherwise would be, you need more
than a hug.
|10.22.04 @ 7:18PM|#
"So, all of the major western religions can trace their roots to
that old guy Nietzsche wrote about :)"
Rick Wagner?
|10.22.04 @ 7:30PM|#
By the way, the ignorant prejudice faced by "vampires" (and not
the fake Goth kind) is explored in the clever little B-movie
thriller "Blood Ties," available at amazon.com.
Also, you aren't supposed to use the V-word. They prefer to be
called Carpathian-Americans.
The movie isn't exactly a comedy -- they tried to play it straight
and make some serious points about ethnic groups and assimilation.
But there are plenty of funny points. "Vampires are stealing our
jobs!"
Arawyn Walays|10.22.04 @ 10:11PM|#
Greetings and Well Come!
First, I'm Wiccan, I'm male, I'm not offended by children dressing
up as stereotypical witches, but, I am offended when the media and
society misrepresents us. Samhain is our Sabbat, seasonal "holy
day", which honors our ancestors and celebrates the end of the
harvest season.
Halloween is a fun holiday for children and adults which has it's
roots in Samhain, harvest festivals, the Inquisitions, and 19th
Century "All Hallows Eve" parties held by the "elite" in Europe and
the US.
Wicca is a religion which like Christianity, Judaism, Islam and
Hinduism has it's Orthos, Reformists, Eclectics, and
"Fluffy-Bunnies".
There are more Wiccan "traditions" than there are Christian
denominations. We have our PC types who are causing this little
"fuss". Yes, we do have problems with how we are portrayed by the
media, but, most of us enjoy the fun of Halloween.
Yes, Wicca is a modern religion, but, many of our beliefs and
practices are based upon ancient beliefs and practices. Our
Orthodox "Traditionalists" do have a belief in the "Old Ways" being
passed down secretly through their families. Can this be proved?
Most of us who aren't "Trads" don't care.
The terms "wicca" and "witch" both originate in words that meant
"the wise ones" and "to bend and shape".
We use the noun "witch" to identify ourselves with the
pre-Christian era "witches" who were the healers, teachers,
historians, and spiritual leaders in their Celtic and Teutonic
communities.
Why should we call ourselves something different, just because the
Catholic Church of the Dark and Middle Ages demonized "witches" by
calling them evil and labelling them as Satan Worshipers? And,
because Hollywood, TV, and modern Christians perpetuate these
distortions?
Should Hindus and Native Americans stop using their holy swastika
symbols just because Nazi Facists used the symbol?
By the Way: Wicca is Not "New Age". We do not believe in Ascension,
Alien Rescue, or Rapture. Our beliefs and practices are modern
forms of ancient ways and thought. Yes, some New Agey stuff has
crept into some of the Wiccan Traditions, just as it has into some
Christian denominations. But, we are not New Age.
Wiccans, like myself, have stepped out of our "broomclosets" to
educate and inform our society about our religion and to obtain the
religious freedoms guaranteed by our Constitution. We do not
evangelize or proselytize, but, we do answer questions and we do
attempt to clear up the misconceptions and dispell the myths. Many
of us are politically active with most being Moderate to Liberal.
There are a few like me who are Conservatives and work within our
"parties" to oppose the "Christian Right" attempts to Christianize
the schools, courts, and all levels of government.
We are your neighbors, co-workers, and fellow Americans and human
beings.
Our family will celebrate a private Samhain at home on the 31st. We
will join our Wiccan community and the public who wish to join us
at a public Samhain and Halloween celebration here in San Diego
called "Witches Night Out 2004" on the 30th. There will be over 500
of us in attendance. Guess how most of us will be dressed?
http://www.cogcalafia.org/wno.html
Arawyn Walays
Wiccan Priest and Elder
of the Hidden Grove
in Califia
|10.22.04 @ 11:56PM|#
Man, you just gotta love it here. Of course there's a
Wiccan among us. Anyway, thanks for setting the record straight,
Mr. Walays.
As for the rest of you jokers. . .first, Ahura Mazda is not a
car (well, unless he wants to be one). I actually was expecting Lt.
Uhura jokes. I, for one, am not going to risk offending
Zoroastrians, because it's likely that one or two are going to pop
up around here. Second, Zoroaster is the same guy as Zarathustra,
who "thus spaked" to Nietzsche. And no, he's not a car,
either.
Speaking of Nietzsche, I leave you all with a few great lines from
A Fish Called Wanda:
Otto : Apes don't read philosophy.
Wanda : Yes they do, Otto, they just don't understand it.
|10.23.04 @ 4:15AM|#
As for the rest of you jokers. . .first, Ahura Mazda is not
a car (well, unless he wants to be one).
Actually, Ahura Mazda is no longer the term used in
Zoroastrianism, at least last I looked. It had morphed into
Ohrmazd. ;-)
I suppose that depends on how you define Wicca, whether you
consider Wiccans to be legitimate followers of the tradition that
began before writing was invented. But your attempt to claim no
relation between the wicked witch concept and historical witches is
disingenuous. The "mythical, semi-supernatural being with magical,
malignant powers derived from a pact with a supernatural force of
evil" stereotype is derived from the image put forth in medieval
times by the Church to demonize (literally) practitions of pagan
rites.
Except that all that is just not true. The Church didn't invent the
image of witches to persecute the poor pagans. There simply weren't
many pagans in Europe in medieval times. That's not to say there
weren't any, but they were not common enough that the
Church actually had to worry about them. Pagan practices
were still pretty common, but were pretty much divorced from their
roots and were mainly superstition by late medieval/early
Renaissance times, when the modern legends of witches really took
form (persecution of "witches" didn't really take off until the
Reformation and Counter-Reformation).
As Paul said, you've bought into the self-history of Wiccans, which
gives solidarity to the group and a connection with the past. Which
is all well and good, but I'm not going to feel bad about not
buying into it myself. Wiccans/pagans/whatever they want to call
themselves were not a persecuted minority in
medieval/Renaissance Europe, because there weren't enough around to
be persecuted. Wicca is a modern religion, based on fragments of
what we know about a very ancient religion.
|10.23.04 @ 10:45AM|#
grylliade,
I think that Ohrmazd vs. Ahura Mazda isn't so
much a usage issue as one of transcription for us Inglés speakers.
It's like that guy who runs Libya. On the other hand, I don't
really know what I'm talking about. Fortunately, I happen to own a
book called In Search of Zarathustra that I might actually
read, now :)
Roger,
There's always Zeus.
|10.23.04 @ 10:54AM|#
Hey, what in the name of Zeus happened to my accent for ingles? It worked in the preview pane. One of the benefits of running a web site on the side is that you just type in code. Well, at least I do--I'm still a Notepad guy. Anyway, ingles without the accent is the plural for ingle, the Spanish word for groin. I'll let y'all draw your own conclusions from the similarity of the words.
|10.24.04 @ 5:14PM|#
I find it interesting that a self-described Wiccan on this forum
isn't bothered at all by Halloween, while joe (a self-described
Catholic) is arguing that Halloween is offensive to Wiccans. Sure,
the Wiccan on this forum can't speak for all Wiccans, but it's
interesting.
(Before somebody points out that it's a sample size of 1, I am not
suggesting our Wiccan poster is statistically significant, just
that he's interesting.)
|10.26.04 @ 2:03PM|#
Greetings and Well Come! {"well come" = "May well come to
you."]
Like I said in my previous post, there are more varieties of
Wiccans than there are of Christians.
Some are PC and see everything as insult and offense.
Yes, we do get treated poorly at times. For most of a year, I rode
buses to and from work here in San Diego County. You wouldn't
believe how many times people dug out Bibles and started nervously
reading them, crossed themselves, began very loud discussions about
Paul and church events, and started preaching at me, just because
they saw my small pentacle on my necklace.
But, for most of us Wiccans, Halloween is a fun time and getting
upset over Halloween witch portrayals is like Christians getting
upset about Santa Claus. Silliness!
Still, we do consider it offensive when Dr. Laura tells a caller
that Wicca isn't a religion. It's offensive when "witch" is used as
an epithet in TV
sitcoms and dramas, and by newscasters.
PC and Fluffy-Bunny Wiccans are on the fringe and should be
regarded with the same emphasis as say Jimmy Swaggart and Pat
Robertson.
Arawyn Walays
Wiccan Priest and Elder
of the Hidden Grove
in Califia
|11.3.04 @ 3:10PM|#
I just say, if you dont like it, dont particiapate. Dont punish the rest of us non witches cause some find offense to it. i personally am getting sick and tired of having to change everything because it may offend someone. I am offended that people find offense in totally stupd and useless things to be offended about. its just another way to shove an idea down someone elses throat and control them passively when they control thier lives-hence having to try to control someone elses. Go home, keep your kids at home, and let the rest of us have our fun kiljoys. by the way, I am a christian and I personlla yfind nothing wrong with dressing up for halloween I just dress my kids in non scary attire, and leave it at that. Why wreck a normal childhoos thing as innocent as going form house to house dressed up as dorothy and the scarecrow and turn it into some devil worship which now in modern times, is not the case. Get over yourselves and let the rest of us live our lives without other people interferring with how we raise our families. School time wasteed? please!!! in that case lets just lets kids eat thier lunch during historry class since lunch is a waste of time, as well as do away with recess as that is nothing more that play time anytime hence, also a waste of time. That is simply an excuse sine the shcool was probably threatened with a law suit if they didnt do away with celebrating any holidays in any form because of the few buttheads who dont. Make an entire school district suffer because of a couple of losers wanting attention and wanting thier views to be shoved down everyone elses throat, in essence making us follow thier beliefs instead of our own, when we are the majority. As i said before, get over yourselves.
|11.6.04 @ 9:12PM|#
Hello, Ok for starters, I am a real Witch. And as far as I knew Witchcraft (Witches) and Wiccan are 2 different things. For one Wiccan is a religion, and some not all Witches practice it. I my self think that this nonsense is just that nonsense!! Halloween is one of the most powerful nights for a Witch, and Witches and Halloween have been around for over 6000 yrs b.c. give or take a few years. Wiccan religion has been around 50 to 75 yrs give or take some years. So these so called Wiccans need too really read up on the heritage of Witches and Witchcraft.So lets weigh them hmmm.... Witchcraft (Witches) been around longer than Christ, or Wiccan only been around for not long at all. So for all the so called wanna be Liberal Witches that call them selves Wiccans really need too either read alittle bit more about Witches and the Craft or just all and all give up trying and acting too be one. Sorry too any of the non witches or non pagans or non wiccans Im not trying too upset you, Just makes me wanna pull all the straw out of my broom when these wannabes start stuff!! And hell since these Fundi Christians and Wanna be Witches take away our Halloweens the Jews should try too take away our Christmas's cause they dont celebrate it and dont believe that Jesus is the Savior!!! Just making a point folks!!! Thank you for listening too how a real Witch feels about this subject!!
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