Tim Cavanaugh | October 4, 2004
Sen. Orrin Hatch (R-Utah) proposes amending the constitution to allow naturalized citizens to hold an office even Zanzibar-born Freddie Mercury assured Americans he didn't want: the President of America.
The proposed amendment makes for some interesting splits among pols in California (and presumably, other states). Governor Schwarzenegger, no doubt eyeing a federal ban on foie gras, supports the idea. GOP Rep. Dana Rohrabacher has introduced a similar bill in the House. House minority leader Nancy Pelosi is all for it but quibbles over the necessary time of residency and/or citizenship. But fellow Democrat (and naturalized citizen) Rep. Tom Lantos comes out strongly against:
I am irrevocably opposed. Our Constitution should only be amended for the most pressing and substantive reasons. There are 250 million native-born Americans, and there ought to be enough talent among them to find someone to serve as president.
"But," Lantos adds in his most charming Count Chocula accent, "if there is a restoration of the Austro-Hungarian empire, I am ready to consider a joint candidacy with Arnold, provided I am on top of the ticket."
Although the Bush/Kerry race gives the lie to the idea that our native-born talent pool is large enough, I kind of side with Lantos on this one. Being denied the presidency is a pretty light burden for a naturalized citizen to bear, and in the absence of any pressing need, amending the constitution should always be a low priority. But I'm willing to be persuaded on this issue.
Help Reason celebrate its next 40 years. Donate Now!
Try Reason's award-winning print edition today! Your first issue is FREE if you are not completely satisfied.
"Being denied the presidency is a pretty light burden for a
naturalized citizen to bear, and in the absence of any pressing
need, amending the constitution should always be a low
priority."
It's not the politicians who are being denied their rights. It's
the voting public, who 1) are having their voting rights curtailed
for no good reason, and 2) are potentially being denied the best
available leadership.
Granholm in 2012!
Let me get this straight... Republicans want to ban gay marriage
AND allow foreigners to be president?
WTF?
I really couldn't care less on this one. If I were in Congress I
would vote for the amendment if it came to the floor, but I would
exert exactly zero energy to bring it to the floor and debate
it.
I'm curious what Ron Paul thinks about this.
I'm pretty sure I already know what Lonewacko thinks about
it.
I agree that the domestic talent pool is pretty shallow. I'm just
not convinced that the imported talent pool is much deeper. I mean,
is Arnold really the best you can come up with? In the end, I think
that our imported politicians are every bit as shallow and craven
as our home-grown politicians.
Anything from Orrin Hatch is assured to be bad. See, for
instance, the DREAM
Act, of which he's the co-sponsor. Dana Rohrabacher is right
about a lot of things, but occasionally he proposes things knowing
they aren't going to be passed.
We shouldn't allow this for the reasons stated and also because of
the possibility that someone would still - even after all those
years - have allegiances to a foreign land. For an example of why
this is bad, see Peru Mad With
Fujimori Citizenship.
(P.S. If you're unable to read and understand what I write above,
and/or if you're obsessed with me for some other reason, please
seek help.)
Constitutional amendments seem to be the dumping ground for every hair-brained scheme they can come up with: see flag burning for example. How about a trade off? Amend it so Arnold and Bill Clinton could run. Who'd win that one? I'd bet a fair amount of money Clinton could annihilate anyone the republicans have, including W, but maybe not Arnold.
There's this weird feeling of inevitability about Arnold's ascension to the White House, and I swear I've either seen a movie or read a Stephen King book where the smiling robot-Austrian climbs to the top, lets out a wicked laugh as his eyes turn glowing red, and then orders up Armageddon. I can't decide whether this is reason to root for the stupid Constitution-meddling or not.
I gotta speak up for the next generation here, since I just changed his diapers. My son arrived in this nation last year at eight months, and he's already demonstrating greater potential than either current candidate. I want to vote for him for President some day, dammit.
Maybe the Simpsons can update the song "I'm a Amendment to Be" for Ranier Wolfcastle.
I don't know, Arthur, I think our newest nephew (born in the US
in April 2004) is pretty darn cute and intelligent. He could
totally kick your son's ass in a Presidential race!
Given how much common sense and creativity our nephews and nieces
exhibit, I think we should amend the Constitution to say that the
President must be no older than 10.
I just prefer to live in a world where Arnold Schwarzenegger can (and probably will if the amendment passes) become President.
I think this issue just goes to show that, if we're going to go
through the trouble of amending the Constitution, then it's time
for a new method of selecting presidents (and perhaps other
offices).
Since, in most cases, those who want the job should not be allowed
to hold it, I propose that the president be selected by lottery.
Shortest straw gets stuck in the White House for four years. Same
with Congress -- what's more representative than a "statistically
representative sample"? If a telephone poll of a few thousand
randomly-selected people can give results with less than a few
points of error, surely that's good enough for legistlative
representation, no?
Alternatively, we could go with Russian Roulette. It would
certainly avoid all that "recount" bother and "hanging Chad" would
get a whole new meaning.
Re: Peru Mad With Fujimori Citizenship
Fujimori was born in Peru. If someone was born in the US under the
same conditions that person would be a "natural born Citizen" and
so eligible for the office per Art I, Sect 1, Clause 5 of the
COTUS. There are few restrictions on dual nationality in US
law.
I was born in a US Territory to US citizen parents but spent barely
three of my first thirty-one years living in the US. One could make
the case that I could easily have developed an allegiance to the
country that I lived in from age fifteen months to fifteen years or
the the other country I lived in for about fourteen years. I am
also eligible to be prez.
I have a relative who was born in France to US citizen parents. He
is claimed as a "natural born Citizen" by both countries. He has
spent most of his life living in the US, and has had a fairly
prominent public life. He too is eligible.
Your contention that a naturalized citizen would necessarily be
less loyal is unfounded.
Let me get this straight... Republicans want to ban gay
marriage AND allow foreigners to be president?
Naturalized citizens are NOT foreigners. They're citizens of the
United States of America, and it is, in my opinion, wrong that they
are discriminated against.
A naturalized citizen has chosen to be an American, which is more
than most of the other 300 million people in this nation can claim.
We were born here; we're Americans by accident of birth.
Naturalized citizens made a conscious choice to leave the place
where they were born -- the culture they were familiar with -- and
come to what was, to them, a foreign country, and adopt it as their
own. They are among the most patriotic and loyal of Americans; they
should not be excluded from any office just because they had the
misfortune to have been born somewhere else.
Anyway, I'm disappointed that Lantos opposes the amendment -- in
part because I'd have liked to see him run for President himself.
He's a pretty amazing guy.
Is Lone "Wolf" Wacko implying that Orin Hatch is obsessed with
him?
The Dream Act stands for Development, Relief, and Education Relief
for Alien Minors Act, and it does two things: it lets the children
of long time immigrants pay "in-state" college tuition and
it allows long time immigrant children of "good moral
character" to apply for permanent resident status.
I don't see what the Dream Act has to do with whether or not we
should allow someone born outside the borders of the United States
to become President; but, maybe I just feel that way because of my
lack of credibility. For more information about my lack of
credibility, check out this link:
http://www.reason.com/hitandrun/2004/09/are_you_drunk_o.shtml
Back to the topic, I'm also open to persuasion, but I'm sitting on
the other side of the fence. I suspect Alexander Hamilton, for
instance, would have made a terrific President and I think joe's
right about it being my right to vote for whomever I please.
Question: is Arnold eligible to be vice president? Or does his potential elevation to the presidency upon the death of the president disqualify him? If the latter, would not any naturalized citizen in the chain of succession be similarly disqualified? (Kissinger, as Secretary of State, for instance). It would seem that naturalized citizens could be in the chain of succession to the presidency as long as they are skipped over in their turn, should it come to them...there is still time for Dick Cheney to step aside before the debate tomorrow.
Question: is Arnold eligible to be vice president?
No.
From Amendment XII
But no person constitutionally ineligible to the office of
President shall be eligible to that of Vice-President of the United
States.
"Let me get this straight... Republicans want to ban gay
marriage AND allow foreigners to be president?"
Will,
Did you flunk 3rd grade set theory or are you lazy. I'm lazy if
that helps. Tell us the truth now.
As long as we're changing the Constitution to let Arnold be President, how about we replace the Electoral College with a steel cage match, winner take all?
"I suspect Alexander Hamilton, for instance, would have made a
terrific President..."
Article I actually includes specific language so that Alexander
Hamilton was eligible to be President.
Sorry, I've done it twice; typed Article I instead of Article
II.
"No person except a natural born citizen, *or a citizen of the
United States, at the time of the adoption of this Constitution,*
shall be eligible to the office of President; neither shall any
person be eligible to that office who shall not have attained to
the age of thirty five years, and been fourteen Years a resident
within the United States.
*or a citizen of the United States, at the time of the adoption of
this Constitution,* is the Alexander Hamilton clause and was
included for him according to some.
A challenge; why should a citizen, naturalized or otherwise, not be allowed all the same rights and privileges of a citizen born on US soil? None that I see. However, is there a pressing need to amend? Again, none that I see.
Exactly, B. Like I said, if I were in Congress I would vote for
it if it came to the floor for a vote, but I wouldn't be putting
any energy into bringing it to the floor.
Still, although I may consider this amendment a low priority,
telling jokes about it is a very HIGH priority. As are jokes about
any other joke-worthy subject. Hence my suggestion of replacing the
electoral college with a gladiator tournament. I suspect that Jesse
Ventura would beat the crap out of Arnold, btw.
Dan is 100% correct. I am a naturalized citizen and consider
myself American first, I did move here at age 1. Seeing as Tim took
the, obvious, quip I wanted to make about there being enough
candidates from 250 million native born citizens, I will add one
thing. Often naturalized citizens have a more idealized view of
America. The liberties and the quality of life that many citizens
take for granted are often fresh in the minds of a naturalized
citizen even decades after they come over. They will often bring an
energy and a desire to keep the land of the free that came
for.
Put simply, I think your average 60s Berkeley grad is more likely
to implement Soviet economic policies than a natualized Russian
from the same time period (on the flip side, I'd say your average
Southern baptist would be more likely to implement theocratic
policies than the average naturalized Iranian) because they know
where those policies would lead.
I wasn't aware of that Issac, point taken.
Still, it seems absurd to suggest that people like John
Shalikashvili and Madeleine Albright aren't American enough to be
president just because they weren't born within our borders.
A challenge; why should a citizen, naturalized or otherwise,
not be allowed all the same rights and privileges of a citizen born
on US soil? None that I see. However, is there a pressing need to
amend? Again, none that I see.
If the law denies someone a right, and there's no apparent reason
why that person should be denied that right, isn't that, alone,
enough to establish a pressing need to change the law? It seems to
me that any pointless restriction on anyone's freedom should be
removed at the earliest opportunity.
'If the law denies someone a right, and there's no apparent
reason why that person should be denied that right, isn't that,
alone, enough to establish a pressing need to change the
law?'
Absolutely, but I think there are vastly more pressing issues along
these lines. Example; depriving non-American Indians of the right
to participate in ritual peyote use. Utah recently corrected this,
but I think it is currently the only state.
George Washington was NOT born in the United States. He was born
in Virginia, a colony. So the rule might have been for Hamilton,
but avoided wording problems, too, and avoided having the country
ruled by Napoleon -- by vote. Russia may have saved the USA's butt
from France same as it saved many a GI from Nazi guns.
Why does the president have to be a citizen? ha ha. The clause does
prevent one form of constitutional take over.
All I can say is: Presinator 2008!
No, but seriously, could you imagine a more enticing combination of
competence and entertainment value?
Absolutely, but I think there are vastly more pressing
issues along these lines. Example; depriving non-American Indians
of the right to participate in ritual peyote use.
Could you please explain why the naturalized citizens' rights
should be held hostage to the American public's belief that peyote
should be illegal? The two things have nothing to do with one
another.
"I suspect that Jesse Ventura would beat the crap out of Arnold,
btw."
Jesse was SEAL, and is bigger than Arnold to boot. So I'd more than
suspect it. I'd put Arnold as a 20:1 underdog to open.
'Could you please explain why the naturalized citizens' rights
should be held hostage to the American public's belief that peyote
should be illegal?'
A naturalized citizen does not have the right to be elected
president, thats what we are discussing here.
It's not just naturalized citizens. It's also American citizens like myself who were randomly born abroad. American expat kids are usually children of either technical, military, diplomatic, or business people. Not that I'm running for president any time soon.
It's not just naturalized citizens. It's also American citizens like myself who were randomly born abroad. American expat kids are usually children of either technical, military, diplomatic, or business people. Not that I'm running for president any time soon.
'Could you please explain why the naturalized citizens'
rights should be held hostage to the American public's belief that
peyote should be illegal?'
A naturalized citizen does not have the right to be elected
president, thats what we are discussing here
Ok, let me rephrase in a manner you'll be able to understand:
You do not have the right to use peyote. Naturalized citizens do
not have the right to become President. Could you give a reason why
naturalized citizens should have to wait to be granted their (new)
rights until after you have convinced Americans that you should be
given the (new) right to use peyote?
If that formulation is too complex for you, here's an even simpler
one:
A majority of Americans do not think you should be allowed to use
peyote. Please explain why discussion of new legislation should be
indefinitely delayed pending a successful public relations campaign
on behalf of peyote legalization.
thoreau,
You might be remembering "Demolition Man."
Courtesy of IMDB...
LeninaHuxley : I have, in fact, perused some newsreels in the
Schwartzenegger Library.
JohnSpartan : Hold it. The Schwartzenegger Library?
LeninaHuxley : Yes. The Schwartzenegger Presidential Library.
Wasn't he an actor when you...
JohnSpartan : But how? He was President?
LeninaHuxley : Yes! Even though he wasn't born in this country, his
popularity at the time caused the 61st Amendment which
states...
JohnSpartan : I don' wanna know. President.
I think the very first post, by Joe, got the point. The "born in
the USA" requirement is a form of protectionism, restricting the
choice of "consumers" of presidents, to the benefit of the domestic
president-making industry. No wonder the domestic supply seems to
be decreasing in quality lately.
But I also like the idea of selecting presidents by lot. The
ancient Athenians did something like this. They saw elections of
public officials as oligarchal and anti-democratic. See:
http://libertariannation.org/a/f41l1.html (The use of lots to fill
public offices is discussed beginning with the section "Legislative
Branch" but the whole thing is an interesting if lengthy read.)
Isaac Bartram: Fujimori was born in Peru. If someone was
born in the US under the same conditions that person would be a
"natural born Citizen" and so eligible for the office per Art I,
Sect 1, Clause 5 of the COTUS. There are few restrictions on dual
nationality in US law.
The Fujimori case is applicable to, for instance, President Arnold.
What if he has serious problems? Could he seek sanctuary in
Austria? Are there foreign countries that, for instance, John
McCain or Jesse Jackson could ask for shelter?
Which is more likely: John McCain or Jesse Jackson favoring one
specific country when the chips are down, or President
Arnold.
What about President Pierce Brosnan? What if legislation is
proposed that would favor the U.S. over Ireland, wouldn't he feel
conflicted?
There are enough people who have birth citizenship that there is no
need for such a radical change to our most basic document.
And, for those who are unable to follow links, from this:
[With the DREAM Act, Orrin Hatch] and his colleagues are
literally taking opportunities and tuition assistance away from the
children of citizens and giving them to illegal aliens...
Supporters of this bill are unabashedly placing the
interests of illegal aliens above American families who have paid
taxes and played by the rules...
I also appear to have forgotten to include this bit in bold:
(P.S. If you're unable to read and understand what I write
above, and/or if you're obsessed with me for some other reason,
please seek help.)
Okay, so I think we agree we should be able to vote for whomever we wish. But no Republican can propose this amendment - Kerry will just accuse them of trying to outsource another American job.
Yeah,
I am a big fan of Arnolds, but I think that if we can't find a good
president from amongst 260 million citizens. I really think the
problem won't be fixed by allowing immigrants to run.
(Actually the 260 million number is not realistic because it
includes infants, people on their deathbed, and inmates, and
individuals in the military not eligible until they complete their
term)
Please, somebody help me. I need some help. I need help
understanding what the Dream Act has to do with whether or not
foreign-born Americans are American enough to be President.
However, as long as we're on the subject, ...
I didn't go to public schools and yet the government forced my
folks to pay for them. I didn't graduate from a public college or
take out a loan, but the government forces me to underwrite the
public education of other people's children. I don't yet have any
children of my own, but if and when I do, I won't send them to
public schools. Still, when the government spends my money on the
public education of other people's children, it doesn't bother me
much. However, it would bother me and a lot of other people plenty
if we were to find out that the government was using our money to
discriminate against the children of immigrants on the basis of
their parents' national origin.
"Anything from Orrin Hatch is assured to be bad."
If Orrin Hatch proposed a bill to round up all the immigrants in
America and send them back where they came from, would you support
it?
...logically, of course, this has nothing to do with the
topic.
P.S. If you're compulsively propagating xenophobia or obsessed with
me for some other reason, please seek help.
I think the original rationale for the "native born citizen"
requirement remains good. It just makes sense for someone to be
President who owes no allegiance to any other nation, who is a
product of this country, and who has spent enough of his or her
formative years here to know and care about the US from deep in the
heart.
I understand that naturalized citizens can care sincerely for the
US, too, and that native-born citizens can and often have burned
the flag. I agree that some of this nation's "product" is pretty
lackluster, and that some of our immigrants are top flight. I know
that some naturalized citizens have been better, truer patriots
than some native-born Americans. Still, I very much like the idea
that the President -- responsible for the national destiny --
should ideally be 100% a product of the American experience and
gene pool. The US needs to be a country that can "grow its own" top
leaders. At very least, the "homegrown" requirement gives us the
incentive to do the absolute best for our children because, sooner
or later, one of them is going to be the President.
If you're compulsively propagating xenophobia or obsessed
with me for some other reason, please seek help
Lonewacko? Compulsively propagating xenophobia? That's a pretty
wild accusation. What's next -- accusing joe of disliking the Bush
administration?
" should ideally be 100% a product of the American experience
and gene pool"
ouch!
Lone Wolf,
How is it applicable? The fact pattern is completely different
after all. Fujimori was born in Peru (and he became President of
Peru); Arnold was born in Austria (and he became an American
citizen). No analogy exists between these fact patterns.
What would be analagous is a situation where a President born in
the U.S., but whose ancestors came from another country. Are you
stupidly suggesting that people whose parents or grandparents came
from another country shouldn't be able to run for the Presidency?
Because that's the fact pattern you are analogizing to, not to the
fact pattern that concerns Arnold.
Sometimes I think your xenophobia gets too involved in the firing
of your synapses.
James Anderson Merritt,
Still, I very much like the idea that the President --
responsible for the national destiny -- should ideally be 100% a
product of the American experience and gene pool.
No trips overseas? No reading of "foreign books?"
And people say the French are obsessed with their identity.
Dan-
Condescension won't make your point it just makes you look like an
ass.
'You do not have the right to use peyote.'
I do, the constitution provides a right to freely practice religion
unless the state can show a compelling interest otherwise. I
believe this hasn't been tested in the courts anywhere but
Utah.
'If that formulation is too complex for you, here's an even simpler
one:
A majority of Americans do not think you should be allowed to use
peyote.'
The beauty of a constitutional democracy is it takes an
overwhelming majority to abridge my right to freely practice my
religion (provided the state has no compelling interest...) through
a constitutional amendment. If conservative Utah can legalize
peyote for non-native use I find it hard to believe, as you assert,
that a majority of Americans believe I should not be allowed to
practice a peyote ritual (let alone a overwhelming majority).
Either way it is speculation.
'Please explain why discussion of new legislation should be
indefinitely delayed pending a successful public relations campaign
on behalf of peyote legalization.'
It is your lame premise, I'm not going to try an explain it. In any
event the burden is on you. Explain why there is such a pressing
need to convene congress for a constitutional amendment when there
are many more egregious violations of liberty. You priorities are
fucked.
Jason Bourne
Thanks for saving me the trouble of replying to the
Lonewacko.
However I'm not sure he gets it. I wonder how many generations he
thinks it takes to get racially pure American blood.
John at October 4, 2004 08:41 PM
With a few exceptions "American expat kids [who] are ... children
of either technical, military, diplomatic, or business people..."
are "natural born citizen[s]..." within the meaning of Article II.
Thus George Romnney, born in Mexico to exiled mormons, was eligible
to be President.
Such children may also be claimed as citizens by their birth
country. As a US Vice-Consul once explained to me; citizenship is
not a choice, it is imposed on you.
It doesn't take much to check your status if you're in doubt.
Oh, I think you just have to draw the line somewhere and being
born a US citizen works for me. I'm not worried about racially pure
American blood, I just want clean process.
The only way - the only way - to allow the Terminator and ten
thousand hard-working Asian-American businesswomen to run for the
highest office would be to amend with a few hundred pages of
special rules to prevent people who were naturalized five minutes
ago from being prez.. except in special cases where that would be a
good thing.
Oh, I think you just have to draw the line somewhere and being
born a US citizen works for me. I'm not worried about racially pure
American blood, I just want clean process.
The only way - the only way - to allow the Terminator and ten
thousand hard-working Asian-American businesswomen to run for the
highest office would be to amend with a few hundred pages of
special rules to prevent people who were naturalized five minutes
ago from being prez.. except in special cases where that would be a
good thing.
"Are there foreign countries that, for instance, John McCain or
Jesse Jackson could ask for shelter?"
I guess Mario or Andrew Cuomo had better forget about ever being
prez in your America.
That's OK, I don't like them either. :)
Wonk,
It would be fairly easily actually. Someone who is a naturalized
citizen for "X" years can run for President. We could make the
figure twenty or thirty years or what have you. That would be a
very clean process.
Isaac Bertram,
Yes, Lone Wolf's argument was easy enough to demolish.
Jason Bourne: Of course an American should be well-read and
well-traveled, hopefully polyglot. I would have a problem with
someone who didn't know English very well, who was raised outside
the country during formative years, and who nostalgically thinks of
another nation as his or her home. With luck, however, the voters
would determine such qualities during an election and prefer the
more "homegrown" candidate.
Anders, "ouch" me all you want, but remember that I said "ideally,"
and no reasonable person expects the ideal to be completely or
frequently achieved. Furthermore, what are you extracting from my
comment that is "ouchworthy"? Racism? Xenophobia? Hardly, on either
count. The American "gene pool" changes daily, as citizens die and
new ones take their place through birth or immigration. Since,
under the constitution, eligibility for the Presidency begins in a
single generation, there's no mechanism (nor should there be) to
systemically or chronically exclude "outsiders."
My point is that our "gene pool" and our "American experience" need
to be sufficient, in combination, to produce the kind of leaders we
need, the equal or better of any others in the world. If we feel
like we have to open up the process because we have to recruit from
outside America to get "the best," then I submit that America was
going wrong long before that point; we should concentrate on
identifying and correcting the wrong turn before we further
contemplate foreign recruitment.
Finally, what is to keep someone from being head of state in two
countries? I doubt that any foreign nation would let a native-born
American take its helm, "King Ralph" notwithstanding. But if we
were to allow non-native born citizens to be President, then isn't
it possible, for instance, for Austria to grant dual citizenship to
Mr. Schwarzenegger, and then elect him to high office over there,
even as we stampede to the polls to put him in the White House over
here? I suppose that is far fetched, but perhaps not even as far
fetched as thinking that the Terminator would someday be governor
of Cauli-FOHR-nya. Normally, I find it a waste of time to consider
extreme hypothetical cases, but recent political developments,
especially Schwarzenegger's rise to power, have made me rethink
that policy.
the constitution provides a right to freely practice
religion unless the state can show a compelling interest
otherwise.
Which it has. Perhaps not to your satisfaction, but that doesn't
matter; the courts are what matter. You do not have the right to
use peyote; it's as simple as that.
Explain why there is such a pressing need to convene congress
for a constitutional amendment when there are many more egregious
violations of liberty.
Because we live in a democracy. You may feel that your rights are
being "egregiously violated", but neither the courts nor your
fellow citizens agree. So you can either (a) throw a temper tantrum
about it and insist that nobody else's rights be dealt with until
you get your way or (b) let people lucky enough to have a shot at
winning recognition for their rights actually do so.
You've chosen (a). Grow up.
Site comments/questions:
Media Inquiries and Reprint Permissions:
(310) 367-6109
Editorial & Production Offices:
3415 S. Sepulveda Blvd.
Suite 400
Los Angeles, CA 90034
(310) 391-2245