'You Can't Turn Back the Ocean'

MTV's Kurt Loder on the delusions of celebrity culture, the coming collapse of mainstream media outlets, and the rising tide of free expression that can't be stopped

Nick Gillespie from the February 2008 issue

Kurt Loder has been chronicling cutting-edge culture in the United States since the 1970s, first with the defunct rock magazine Circus and then during a legendary stint at Rolling Stone. Along the way, he co-authored Tina Turner’s memoir, which became the basis for the hit movie What’s Love Got To Do With It. In 1988 Loder joined MTV as a news anchor and now, among other tasks, serves as the channel’s film critic. His weekly reviews, available online at mtv.com, are as broad in their selection of films as they are incisive in their analysis.

Consider Loder’s take on Michael Moore’s health care documentary Sicko. “As a proud socialist, the director appears to feel that there are few problems in life that can’t be solved by government regulation (that would be the same government that’s already given us the U.S. Postal Service and the Department of Motor Vehicles),” wrote Loder, a military veteran, in June. “What’s the problem with government health systems? Moore’s movie doesn’t ask that question, although it does unintentionally provide an answer. When governments attempt to regulate the balance between a limited supply of health care and an unlimited demand for it they’re inevitably forced to ration treatment.”

Born in Ocean City, New Jersey, in 1945, Loder is unabashedly libertarian in his politics and optimisticin his cultural outlook. As part of the October conference “Reason in D.C.,” Editor-in-Chief Nick Gillespie interviewed Loder on the impact of technology (liberating), the rise of celebrity culture (noxious), the growth of the nanny state (really noxious), and the future of mass media (grim, but that’s a good thing). What follows is an edited transcript, with audience questions mixed directly into the discussion for readability. The full interview can be viewed at reason.tv; comments should be sent to [e-mail].

Reason: Major record companies complain they’re losing market share and revenue. Major daily newspapers say the same thing. Broadcast networks still command a huge audience, but it’s much smaller than before. The big outlets don’t seem to have the monopoly on audience they once did. Is the decentralization of audience, of culture, a good thing?

Kurt Loder: We’re better off with new technology. Music is proliferating in a way it never has before. CDs are over. DVDs will soon be over. You’ll download this stuff. I think it’s a good thing. Record companies will change. They’ll have to.

Copyright is going to be the big change. I think creators should be paid for their work. I’m on that side of the debate. If you make a record, you should be paid for it. Record companies do pay artists for the music they make, eventually. It’s remarkable how little
they pay them—initially, especially. If you’re a young band, you’re going to make nothing originally. Maybe on your third record, you’ll start making money. It’s pretty amazing.

We used to live in a command-media world. You had no choice but to look at NBC, CBS, ABC; there was nothing else. If you wanted big stories, you went to The New York Times or The Washington Post. I think blogging and the Internet have changed that entirely. They’ve shattered the monopoly on information.

To give just one example: The “Baghdad Diarist” in The New Republic [a soldier who wrote an article describing alleged bad behavior by U.S. troops in Iraq] was a total fraud. It was exposed by military bloggers who came out and said this guy doesn’t know what he’s talking about. That wouldn’t have happened 20 years ago.

Reason: As a journalist, how do you feel about the audience fact-checking you? And having direct access to you?

Loder: Some people are always going to call you an idiot. Some people are going to say you’re great or you’re an asshole. You have to get used to that. But that’s good too. It’s good to hear directly what people think. It’s good to get rid of filters. I think we live in a great, hopeful age for media. I think it’s the best of all possible times.

Anybody can be heard now. You put something out into the ocean of the Internet, and it bounces all over everywhere because things can be passed on so well. It’s a great time to be a filmmaker because the technology we have allows you to make films and upload them, and people can see your work. You can make digital music and upload it, and people will hear it. This is the golden age of communication.

Reason: One of the great bogeymen of contemporary media discourse is the consolidation of media ownership. MTV itself is part of a giant conglomerate. Why shouldn’t fewer companies owning more outlets be worrisome?

Loder: MTV is part of Viacom, which controls Paramount, and so on and so forth. It’s the evil empire, right? But these giants—Time Warner, Viacom—are facing an upstart culture now. Things are coming from the ground up, and they can’t really deal with it all. They’re very upset about their content being taken and simply uploaded on [the video sharing site] YouTube. Viacom has a billion-dollar lawsuit against YouTube.

They can’t really fight it. They have to become part of it. They have to buy part of it.

Reason: Should we worry about attempts, whether legal or technological, to clamp down on culture?

Comments

|1.29.08 @ 8:59AM|#

Does Loder sit bare-assed on a porcupine?

|1.29.08 @ 9:19AM|#

Good interview. I just wish I could see Loder's name without hearing "Peace Sells" in my head.

Episiarch|1.29.08 @ 9:34AM|#

You have something against Dave Mustaine?

|1.29.08 @ 9:50AM|#

Born in Ocean City, New Jersey, in 1945, Loder is...
Old. That's what he is. The man is old enough to draw social security. Loder just illustrates MTV's place in the establishment.

Do the kids watch MTV anymore? I thought it was all about iPods and MySpace these days.

|1.29.08 @ 10:32AM|#

I just wish I could see Loder's name without hearing "Peace Sells" in my head.

You're a fag, that's what you are.

|1.29.08 @ 10:37AM|#

MTV excluded ron paul from their "bipartisan" debate.

Danny|1.29.08 @ 10:41AM|#

Third paragraph: "optimisticin" is missing a space.

|1.29.08 @ 10:50AM|#

I wish he would have called people out by name when talking about Warner-contract-signing rebel rockers. Messrs. de la Rocha, Morello, and Vedder come to mind pretty quickly.

|1.29.08 @ 11:01AM|#

I don't know if you remember the Time magazine that had Bono on the cover and asked, "Can Bono Save the World?" Well, the answer is no.

That's a money quote.

Kolohe|1.29.08 @ 11:09AM|#

Old. That's what he is. The man is old enough to draw social security. Loder just illustrates MTV's place in the establishment.

To be fair, Loder has always played the part of the token old dude.

Now if, for instance, Martha Quinn was still on, she would definitely be out of place.

Joe Allen|1.29.08 @ 11:13AM|#

Kurt and Nick: two guys in their forties (fifties?) still wearing their High school letterman's jackets and going to the post-game keggers. Pathetic.

highnumber|1.29.08 @ 11:19AM|#

Born in Ocean City, New Jersey, in 1945, Loder is...

Kurt and Nick: two guys in their forties (fifties?)

Joe Allen: poor reading comprehension or poor math skills?

|1.29.08 @ 11:27AM|#

Joe Allen: poor reading comprehension or poor math skills?

C) Both of the above.✔

|1.29.08 @ 11:31AM|#

Old. That's what he is. The man is old enough to draw social security. Loder just illustrates MTV's place in the establishment.

Yep. When you're young you should never listen to old people. They know nothing that's relevant about your life, your art, or your politics.

I didn't swallow that B/S when I was 16.

|1.29.08 @ 11:49AM|#

wow Kurt Loder is older than my dad.

|1.29.08 @ 11:49AM|#

I didn't swallow that B/S when I was 16.
No? Well look what happened to you.

The fact is, young people don't listen to anyone outside their immediate peer group.

If I had paid more attention to my peers I wouldn't be such a dork. But I was too busy reading Rand to give a fuck about Joey Ramone.

That doesn't really matter does it? TMI?

|1.29.08 @ 11:57AM|#

The fact is, young people don't listen to anyone outside their immediate peer group.

You're missing the adjective stupid in that statement. I'll assume it was an editing error.

|1.29.08 @ 12:34PM|#

Government rationing of a limited amount medical care is the elephant in the room for sure, as Loder states. No one will discuss curbing Medicare - which we all have to pay for.

There is no private solution when the ultra high-cost elderly are all on a public payment system at the expense of the taxpayer.

Medicare is out of control - not Social Security. Any actuary will tell you that.

|1.29.08 @ 1:18PM|#

Again, don't trust anything celebrities say. They're not going to save anybody's world. Not even their own, often.

So I shouldn't listen to Bono--but I should listen to Kurt Loder telling me not to listen to Bono? I guess you can trust celebrities, as long as they are B-list celebrities.

Loder seems to have an opinion. I find it boring myself, but if you're 65 years old, you might find it rousing. I have no need for it.

|1.29.08 @ 1:49PM|#

If he really believes old media is dead, why does he still work for them?

Does anyone discuss the dopey naivete of market religionists like Loder? (Sorry, I guess that is the slant of this entire website). Is he really suggesting that the current problems w/health care in America lie entirely at the feet of government regulation, not the HMOs?

Finally, worrying about government censorship and surveillance is uh, so 20th century. Markets can censor. And companies can find it very profitable to surveil--ie collect data--their consumers. Oh, and then they might just sell or share it to governments...

|1.29.08 @ 1:57PM|#

Markets can censor.

Actually, they can't. Only a state can censor. Individuals are free to remove or block messages from property they own, but cannot do so on property they don't own, and cannot punish an individual for propagating a message they disagree with (absent some contractual relationship with the individual allowing such punishment) and so cannot comprehensively bar the distribution of a message.

Publius|1.29.08 @ 2:05PM|#

I never knew Kurt Loder was so independent in thought, but I am thankful for it. Nor did I realize he was over 60. Wow, that guy looks pretty good. But seriously, where are the other celebrity voices speaking out against the police state and government tyranny?

Where are the individuals in this country?

|1.29.08 @ 3:59PM|#

parse | January 29, 2008, 1:18pm | #

Again, don't trust anything celebrities say. They're not going to save anybody's world. Not even their own, often.

So I shouldn't listen to Bono--but I should listen to Kurt Loder telling me not to listen to Bono?

He didn't say you shouldn't listen, he said you shouldn't trust. In other words, do your own research and come to your own conclusions. You know, free thought, reasoning, analysis, that sort of thing. With a name like parse, I'd have thought you would know how to, well, parse a sentence.

Steve Verdon|1.29.08 @ 5:25PM|#

If he really believes old media is dead, why does he still work for them?

Two things.

1. A paycheck.
2. He didn't say it was dead, but that its outlook was grim.

The idea here is that nothing is static or permanent. Hell, on the front page there is a link to a video about how markets share many similarities with evolutionary theory. So even if "old/big media" "dies out" it will be replaced by something. Evolutionary theory tells you this, economics tells you this. Not a hard lesson to grasp. Why so many actually have a hard time with it, I don't know.

Does anyone discuss the dopey naivete of market religionists like Loder? (Sorry, I guess that is the slant of this entire website). Is he really suggesting that the current problems w/health care in America lie entirely at the feet of government regulation, not the HMOs?

HMOs were a response to rising costs. Those rising costs are at least due in part to Medicare--i.e. subsidizing health care for some of the largest users of health care, and also from how health care benefits get preferential tax treatment--i.e. subsidized. A basic result of economics is that when you subsidize something you get more of it. Again, pretty simple to understand, why some people have a hard time with this, I don't know.

Finally, worrying about government censorship and surveillance is uh, so 20th century. Markets can censor. And companies can find it very profitable to surveil--ie collect data--their consumers.

So don't be their consumer. However, try not paying your taxes. The government will hunt you down, confiscate your property and then confine you. Not too many firms can do that.

Oh and censoring is different that surveiling someone. So your whole point is rather...well confused.

My only beef is with Loder is that markets are also a rationing mechanism. This is something many people on the Left don't seem to grasp. They like the idea of rationing, they just don't want the price system to do it. The idea that somebody who is less benign than their "Benevolent Social Dictator" could come to power and could make a really ugly mess of things just doesn't seem to factor into their calculus.

Steve Verdon|1.29.08 @ 5:29PM|#

But seriously, where are the other celebrity voices speaking out against the police state and government tyranny?

They are too busy supporting issues and causes where we will have less options and/or freedoms. Like global warming. They want to control what kind of car you drive, what kind of energy you use in your house, what appliances you buy, etc. Nevermind that the most obvious and effective method of reducing consumption of say gasoline is to put a (pigouvian) tax on it.

As Loder said, don't trust celebrities, especially on issues that require reason, logic and evidence. We pay actors, singers, musicians, etc. to be emotional, not logical and fact based.

Martha Quinn\'s secret admirer|1.29.08 @ 6:57PM|#

Now if, for instance, Martha Quinn was still on,

Oh my, talk about bringing back memories! I had the biggest crush on her when I was 13 and we finally got cable (about '83). Turns out she still looks pretty damn good even at 48. Hard to imagine that was 25 years ago already...

Joe Allen|1.30.08 @ 7:53PM|#

Why yes, my reading and math skills have deteriorated, but I quit trying to pretent I'm cool years ago, unlike Mr. Loder and Mr. Gillespie.

And yes, Martha Quinn is still quite a hottie.

Faze|2.1.08 @ 7:01PM|#

Whoa -- On the Mr. Softee tuck ban in New York: the very good Mr. Loder thinks this is nanny stateism, but if you've ever had one of those suckers park in front of your building, playing its tinny theme song at ghetto-blasting volume from 11 p.m. to 3 a.m., you would swear to vote for Hillary Clinton if she promised to draw and quarter the driver in the public square. Mr. Softee trucks are an urban nightmare, and a major quality of life issue.

|2.2.08 @ 1:06PM|#

For an MTV/Rolling Stone guy, Loder makes surprisingly uninformed comments about the Beatles -- and it's typical baby boomer blind-eyed crap. He says that even old people liked the Beatles -- certainly true NOW, but not an accurate generalization for the early and mid- sixties -- and also seems to think they derived their music out of thin air, rather that borrowing from other sources as all musicians do. At their inception, the Beatles were influenced by skiffle and other musical forms. Really, this picture of seniors in 1969-era old folks homes holding hands with teenagers and singing "Lucy In The Sky With Diamonds" or perhaps "Helter Skelter" is a romantic one, to be sure, but Loder has got to be kidding if he thinks the Beatles somehow united the world. Culture is more fragmented today because we have more choices, not because we have crappier musicians. Loder betrays his geezer-ism with his comments.