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What Can Be Done To Stop School Shootings Without Shredding the Constitution?

Probably nothing. Which doesn't mean libertarians shouldn't be having a serious conversation after Santa Fe, Parkland, and other tragedies.

Michael Stravato/Polaris/NewscomMichael Stravato/Polaris/NewscomAnother week, another school shooting, this time at Texas' Santa Fe High School. Ten people have been killed, 10 wounded, and a suspect and accomplice are in police custody.

What can—and should—be done to reduce or eliminate such horrible events? From a specifically libertarian perspective, this isn't an easy question for at least two reasons.

First, most libertarians are slow to restrict constitutionally protected rights to own and bear arms, especially since it's only been relatively recently (2008) that the Supreme Court has fully recognized an individual right to keep and bear arms (states had been liberalizing gun control for years prior to that). Second, increases in the ability to own and carry weapons under more circumstances have correlated with a massive decrease in violent crime generally, including gun crimes:

From 1993 to 2015, the rate of violent crime declined from 79.8 to 18.6 victimizations per 1,000 persons age 12 or older,' says the Bureau of Justice Statistics in its most recent comprehensive report (published last October, using data through 2015). Over the same period, rates for crimes using guns dropped from 7.3 per 1,000 people to 1.1 per 1,000 people. The homicide rate is down from 7.4 to 4.9. These are not simply good things, they are great things. They are the essential backdrop of all discussions about gun crime and mass shootings....

From a macro-policy perspective, then, things are going in the right direction. People have more rights, more guns, and they are safer, too. The libertarian response to mass shootings, including school shootings, has been to assert the primacy of the Constitution, highlight positive trends, and to point toward other statistics intended to calm public fears. That may not be enough to withstand a number of counter-trends, however, including fears that mass shootings are becoming more common and gun ownership needs to be more-tightly restricted.

Mass shootings, says researcher Grant Duwe, are not getting more common (though, yes, they are getting more violent). "U.S. classrooms safer today than at any time in recent memory." Good guys with guns stop bad guys with guns far, far more often than most people appreciate. Every possible solution—banning certain types of weapons, arming teachers, putting more cops in schools, expanding mental-health background checks, mandating truly universal background checks that would cover even private gun transactions among family members, shrinking the size of magazines, you name it—won't change anything, has been tried already and failed, or won't pass constitutional muster.

In the wake of the Santa Fe shooting, coming after the Parkland shooting that killed 17, one at Central Michigan University that killed two, and one at a Tennessee Waffle House that killed four, anger, confusion, and fear will understandably reign for a good, long time among people on all sides of the gun-control issue. The Parkland shooter, for example, was extremely well-known to police and social services before he unleashed his terror. Even as the on-site Broward County sheriff who refused to confront the killer during the shooting retires on a six-figure annual pension, the school district is stonewalling requests for information from the families of victims, government, and the media. Scot Israel, who runs the Broward County Sheriff Department, said he wasn't responsible for the failure of his officers in the field. It appears that the Santa Fe shooter used what one analyst called "a Wal Mart beginner hunting gun"—a sawed-off shotgun in most accounts, along with a semiautomatic pistol—while on his rampage, confounding the idea that particular weapons are especially lethal.

Tallies of the number of school shooting so far this year range from 42 to 22 to nine, depending on the source and definition used (CNN alone offered up wildly differing totals yesterday). Local and national politicians are already calling for changes to gun laws and calling out the National Rifle Association (NRA), the country's biggest gun group:

New York Gov. Andrew Cuomo has already declared, in all caps, that the time has come to "DO SOMETHING," regardless of efficacy or effectiveness. Such pronouncements will grow in the coming days and make gun owners, who (rightly or wrongly) already feel threatened by politicians who they (rightly or wrongly) invariably call "gun-grabbers," even more worried than usual. Declan McCullagh earlier this week reported that the Supreme Court declined to hear a challenge to county-level zoning law that effectively allows California municipalities to ban gun stores. Over the coming months, expect a hardening of positions between supporters and opponents of the Second Amendment, even as there are reasons to believe that supporters are losing the "culture war over guns." After the Parkland shooting, notes Peter Beinart at The Atlantic,

More than 20 corporations, including United Airlines, Hertz, and MetLife have cut ties with the NRA. Walmart and Dick's Sporting Goods, two of America's largest gun retailers, have both announced they will stop selling guns to people under the age of 21. The Marjory Stoneman Douglas gun-control activists have become national heroes, praised by numerous celebrities.

Even hardcore gun-rights supporters increasingly feel a need to, like Gov. Cuomo, do something. In the aftermath of Parkland, National Review's David French began promoting the idea of "gun violence restraining orders" (GVROs), which would allow family members and law enforcement officials to petition a court to strip individuals of Second Amendment rights. GVROs, warned Jacob Sullum, provide "much potential for abuse by malicious or mistaken petitioners, abetted by judges who will be inclined to err on the side of what they believe to be caution by revoking the Second Amendment rights of possibly dangerous people." In the wake of the Santa Fe shooting, French points to a 2015 piece by journalist Malcolm Gladwell that he calls

the best explanation for modern American mass shootings, and it's easily the least comforting. At the risk of oversimplifying a complex argument, essentially he argues that each mass shooting lowers the threshold for the next. He argues, we are in the midst of a slow-motion "riot" of mass shootings, with the Columbine shooting in many ways the key triggering event.

Gladwell's case isn't immediately convincing to me—Columbine happened 20 years ago and the frequency of mass shootings hasn't increased and gun violence has declined—but that's less important than what people feel is happening. If conservatives as rock-ribbed as David French, a veteran and former head of The Foundation for Individual Rights in Education (FIRE) whom GOP anti-Trumper Bill Kristol unsuccessfully tapped to run against Donald Trump in 2016, are moving in the do-something direction, it's plausible that federal gun-control legislation is only a midterm election away. Donald Trump is nobody's idea of a principled politician. He met with Parkland survivors at the White House and signaled he was open to discussing gun-control legislation and his willingness to do so might become even stronger if the Democrats gain a majority in one or both houses of Congress in the fall. More than anything, the president likes to "win" and make deals, right? Earlier this year, pollsters at the Quinnipiac University National Poll found a historic level of support for "stricter gun laws" (66 percent in favor, 31 percent against) and virtually unanimous support for "universal background checks" (97 percent for, 3 percent against among gun owners). Cuomo's "DO SOMETHING" may be a terrible suggestion, but that doesn't mean it won't carry the day.

Yesterday, the founder of Ars Technica and self-described "gun nut" John Stokes tweeted, "These [shootings] just keep coming, this year. Those of us who value our #2A rights had better come up with something." Along with a long tweetstorm discussing the lethality of the relatively simple weapon reportedly used by the Santa Fe shooter and arguing that "a focus on the 'what' [gun is used] is pointless & should be given up for a focus on the 'who' [that's doing the shooting]," Stokes pointed readers to his April 28 Politico story outlining "gun control that works." An excerpt:

The idea is simple but powerful: a federally issued license for simple possession of all semi-automatic firearms. This license would allow us to carefully vet civilian access to semi-automatic weapons, while overriding state-specific weapon bans and eliminating some of the federal paperwork that ties specific firearms to specific owners.

I offer this idea not only because I actually want to live in a world where it, or something like it, is the law of the land, but also because I and my fellow gun nuts are worried that a storm is coming that will sweep away a substantial portion of our gun rights without really making the country safer in return. We're not even five months into a midterm election year, and 2018 has seen a string of high-profile incidents that have darkened the public's view of civilian gun ownership: February's massacre at Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School in Parkland, Florida, followed by this month's shootings at YouTube headquarters in San Bruno, California, and at a Waffle House in Nashville, Tennessee. In the aftermath of these killings, we're hearing proposals for anti-gun measures that we thought were widely considered out of bounds in the gun control debate, like a ban on all semi-automatic firearms, a repeal of the Second Amendment, or even an outright ban on the private ownership of guns. Some of us think this will all blow over, as it always does. And maybe it will. But this time definitely feels different.

I'm not overly convinced by Stokes' plan any more than I am by David French's call for GVROs or Cuomo's demand that we "DO SOMETHING." But there's a lot of wisdom in Stokes' dictate to "come up with something." A good starting point for famously Vulcan-like libertarians would be to openly acknowledge the pain of survivors and the unspeakable horrors that unfold in locations such as Santa Fe and Parkland. It also makes sense to foreground what is surely common ground with the vast majority of Americans, even "gun-grabbers," which is that we all want a more-peaceful, less-violent America. From there, it is essential to provide arguments and insights that will alleviate rather than inflame concerns about safety, rates of violence, and how guns are used. Conservatives and groups like the NRA are fond of blaming broadly defined "mental illness" for gun violence, along with video games, drug-taking, and Democratic rule in cities such as Chicago. Libertarians should combat those weak arguments and discuss how policies such as the war on drugs intensify and concentrate gun violence in urban communities while also explaining how school, social-service, and law-enforcement authorities routinely shirk their responsibilities to identify and contain true threats (this is perhaps the biggest policy takeaway from Parkland). Reflexively reaching for often-thin arguments simply based on originalism, the Founders' intent, or contempt for any form of gun control isn't going to help very much. "Coming up with something" doesn't need to mean introducing a whole new set of gun laws. It can also mean having meaningful, informed, empathetic conversations with people on the other side of a particularly controversial and fraught issue.

Related video: "5 Facts About Guns, Schools, & Violence," which was released in December 2013 after the Sandy Hook Elementary School shooting in Connecticut. For more details, go here.

Photo Credit: Michael Stravato/Polaris/Newscom

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  • 2VNews||

    We could try:
    Making sure violent mentally ill people get treatment and stay on treatment.
    Repealing the Gun-Free School Zones Act.

    And as bonus to reduce gun violence overall - ending the drug war.

  • MichaeI Hihn||

    I've seen you on Twitter, and enjoy your work.

  • Last of the Shitlords||

    Also:

    Stop emasculating boys and drugging them
    Let boys fight and get their aggression out of their system

  • CE||

    But the "treatment" is making some people worse.

  • DajjaI||

    From a specifically libertarian perspective

    There's a lot we can do to prevent a war on guns that will turn the country into a Gaza Strip with police shooting at us like fish in a barrel. Some things are: ending autism 'treatment' which is really just mass shooter training. Stopping homeschooling which is really just 'public school kids are idiots' training. Standing up to these gun control rallies which are really just witch hunts against autistic and homeschool kids. Embracing these kids and pulling them back into their community instead of bullying them.

    There is a guy I recently found out about on facebook who has been acting strangely lately and all his 'friends' are telling him to get a lobotomy. I am trying to talk him out of it but now they are telling me I need a lobotomy! Just for standing up to the bullying. This is wrong and must stop. But yes this is how mass shooters are created.

  • Benitacanova||

    Wait, kids can't be homeschooled because it makes public school kids look stupid, hence more likely to shoot their classmates?

  • Dan S.||

    ending autism 'treatment' which is really just mass shooter training.

    What the hell? Care to explain that?

  • DajjaI||

    "You have a disease of the brain that will prevent you from ever having normal peer interactions but here are some 'tricks' you can use to appear normal."

  • soldiermedic76||

    Wow, that is straight bullshit. You know absolutely nothing about how people on the spectrum are treated.

  • soldiermedic76||

    Nor does it appear that you even understand what autism is. You also seem blissfully unaware of the fact that only a small minority of these shooters were on the spectrum, that the vast majority of those on the spectrum are non-violent. You are nothing but a fucking bigot.

  • Brett Bellmore||

    "that the vast majority of those on the spectrum are non-violent."

    Speaking as someone who's "on the spectrum", typical logical fallacy. Since the number of school shootings, and school shooters, is so small, it's pretty much inevitable that even if they tended to be members of some group, the vast majority of that group wouldn't be school shooters.

    The question being posed is not whether most X are Y, but whether most Y are X.

    This remark doesn't assert any truth value for the proposition, it's just pointing out your fallacy.

  • Linda C||

    respectfully autism spectrum suffers are WAY over represented in school shooters and are more likely to commit mass shootings. Lanza was Asperger whihc is I part of the spectrum, one of the columbine was. Five of the five trail psychiatrists who worked with Breivik (the Norwegian who is the biggest school shooter in the world diagnosed him with aspergers.

    The most recent CDC estimate is autism spectrum including asperger is 1.7% of the public, but are about 30% of the mass school shooters.

    And several of the drugs used to treat autism spectrum have been associated with increased violent behavior.

  • CE||

    If everyone homeschooled there wouldn't be any public schools for shooters to target.

  • Quo Usque Tandem||

    I think you're on to something.

  • ||

    Dajjal, man I have no idea what the hell your smoking but maybe lay off just a little bit brother. Your statement makes no sense at all.

  • esteve7||

    I've told my teen cousin this right as we were going to Disneyland (and it happened to be right before another car plowing). If someone wants to murder a bunch of people, there's really nothing you can do about it if you want to live in a free country. You can mitigate it by having people armed and ready to repel them as fast as possible, but you can't really stop the initial act.

    We were walking down Harbor, and there are hundreds of people walking to get to disneyland. .If someone really wanted to plow through, nothing would stop them.

    In Florida, Disney security deterred the pulse shooter, but that's exactly the point. They just went somewhere else they thought had no security. So unless you want to live in a police state, the best way to minimize the damage these evil people can do is to arm people, so they have a chance of fighting back.

    Also what a coincidence these animals always choose soft targets / 'gun free' zones. When's the last time there was a mass shooting at a gun store, or gun show?

  • loveconstitution1789||

    Even in police states there are shootings.

  • BestUsedCarSales||

    Only because those damned right wingers wouldn't give the police state the funding it deserves

  • Linda C||

    Even in police states there are shootings.

    Mass school shootings are in fact overrepresented in gun free zones

  • ||

    If you factor in the roughly 300 million guns Americans own compared to the 138,000 guns that UK citizens own; it makes the number of shootings in American so small it would be labeled statistically insignificant.

    You could also look at the number of shootings that are actual assaults (you have to subtract the 2.5 million that are actual legal self-defense because those don't count) compared to the 300 million guns and it would again make the US the safest country in the world.

    Point is that when comparing the total number of guns to the total number of actual violent gun acts, the numbers show that guns have the most amazing safety record on planet earth.

  • Emotional Opposition Animal||

    A gun show is an extremely soft target. None of the guns at the tables are loaded and you would be in deep shit if caught bringing in a loaded gun.

  • Morbo||

    Yeah, no. The guns on display aren't loaded, but I can guarantee you that probably a third or more of the people there are carrying concealed, which no gun show in their right mind would prohibit, unless they want nobody to show up.

  • Buddy Bizarre||

    All the ones I've been to have asked attendees to unload & put a tie wrap thru their carry gun to show it's unloaded. I've never seen any frisking, so I assume it's primarily on the honor system with a cop by the door.

  • SezWhom||

    Just imagine that you are in fact a crazy shooter. Now, all you need is venue. Two possible venues are a gun free school, or a gun show. Would you, being an otherwise rational crazy guy, choose the gun show? A gun show with thousands of guns and limitless amo. And experienced shooters. You would not make it out of there alive, even if every gun was initially unloaded. It would take only seconds for those experienced shooters to load guns, only some of which have tie wraps. I'd say that your lifespan from the time you started shooting would be approximately ten seconds.

  • You're Kidding||

    "otherwise rational crazy guy"

    an oxymoron.

    Now, ego maniac who wants to gain a name for themselves, that's a school shooter.

  • DJK||

    None of the guns are loaded.... And? How long do you think it takes for someone behind a stand to load a gun and return fire on a would-be mass shooter? How long do you think it takes for this to happen across multiple stands. The would-be mass shooter would certainly injure or kill some people. But their mass shooting ends very quickly. And this is all ignoring that, at some gun shows, owners are allowed to carry loaded weapons. A gun show would be a horrible choice for a would-be mass shooter.

  • Linda C||

    A gun show is a hardened target. Many do not all CC, some do, but given there are hundred of thousands of rounds of ammo all over the place at even a small to medium sized one, along with thousands of guns, you'd last about 5 seconds trying to shoot one up.

  • Robert||

    Theoretically you could mitigate it by preventing crowds, which you could do by haaving nothing in the world be more attractive than anything else in the world, so people are spread out evenly.

  • sharmota4zeb||

    The British government liked to ban peaceful assembly. It is one of the reasons we rebelled.

  • Robert||

    Who said anything about bans? Just recognize that people are dangerous to each other, so stay far away from each other. People recognized this in the case of communicable diseases. Move out of the cities, spread out evenly across the countryside, & we'll all be safer from mass shootings or mass anything.

  • You're Kidding||

    Military tactics have soldiers moving as a unit spaced staggered and on each side of the path for a reason.

    Ditto for group motorcycle riding.

    There is a reason for the method.

  • brec||

    One thing that can be done is for media -- such as, say, this very blog -- to refrain from publishing the names and pictures of the shooters. This requires no government action, but it requires that each publication individually adopt and implement the policy.

    I was crestfallen yesterday to see the name and pictures of the Santa Fe shooter prominently featured on H&R.

  • MichaeI Hihn||

    The brain regularly culls information that isn't accessed. Most people cannot recall the names of shooters after a few months. It becomes what is actually memorable: the Aurora theater shooting, Pulse, Dylan Roof with the penis head, Columbine, Sandy Hook.

    I, for example, can't recall the names of the Boston marathon bombers. Oh, I could look it up on the internet should I have a pressing need for the information, and yet I don't remember it.

    The cost-reward calculations are a little skewed, once we factor that in. Limiting what can or ought to be printed, in return for not seeing information most of us won't need or remember anyway, might be more trouble than it's worth.

    Something to consider.

  • lulz farmer||

    The reason you remember the name of, say, Dylan Roof but not, say, the black guy who did the exact same thing Roof did a couple years afterwards is obvious when you consider the characteristics of each of them, who owns the media, and what agenda and messaging is being pushed by doing so. It's a process called highlighting and minimizing. It's a propaganda technique. Roof was on the news for months, black guy who shoots up a white church isn't on national media at all.

  • MichaeI Hihn||

    I actually used the black guy who shot up a church and the other black guy who shot up a news team in Virginia as examples, and then thought it would seem I was reaching too far afield to prove my point about names being unimportant over the long term, and so deleted them. Ha.

    Remembering them at all is a tiny bit remarkable, since, as you point out, Dylan Roof was a bigger national story, and that he fit the narrative was probably more than coincidental. Confirmation bias is a helluva siren song.

    It'd perhaps be helpful if we started looking at it as a neurotypical condition rather than a character flaw; everyone does it, we just can't catch ourselves at it.

  • sharmota4zeb||

    Well... Shooting up a place is one thing, but if you also like Confederate flags, you become infamous.

  • Linda C||

    You and I not fixating on the names and identities and the fame media provides to these mass shooters is an outcome of being mentally healthy.

    The school shooters are absolutely fixated in prior shooters and do know their names.

  • brec||

    I doubt that the longevity of people's memories is much of a concern for those shooters for whom publicity is part of the motivation. The issue I raise is: name and likeness seen by millions, or by (almost) no one?

  • MichaeI Hihn||

    TANSTAAFL. Examining a plan for it's possible benefits alone is to ask half a question.

    You have good cause, let's shorten this up by stipulating that. For argument's sake, you have good cause to get your way. Everyone does.

    Having gotten past the thorny issue of establishing you are the protagonist - now convince me you have plans to deal with the costs and side effects of enforcement.

  • brec||

    I'm sorry; I don't know what you mean. What costs and side effects of what enforcement?

    This requires no government action, but it requires that each publication individually adopt and implement the policy.
  • MichaeI Hihn||

    Right around the part where you realize that your plan requires agreement and action that isn't happening, I'd imagine.

  • Linda C||

    The kids in this tiny subgroup DO remember the names, in virtually all the cases they have press clippings, bookmarks on their browsers etc of prior mass shooters.

    You and I don't conflate fame with infamy. these shooters do. the media abets this by making the shooters famous despite peer reviewed work showing this is exactly what shooters crave.

    all emotionally healthy people do have periods of feeling insignificant. an emotionally healthy person going through such a period in feeling insignificant and mildly depressed might fantasize about scoring the last second winning soccer goal, saving a drowning child, inventing a cure to cancer. there are known sets of heroic fantasies people daydream of.

    These shooters have fantasies and visualizations of becoming well known -- but due to a specific handful of three or four specific mental illnesses at least one present in every mass shooter, are fine choosing an infamy scenario since it certain.

  • C. S. P. Schofield||

    Or, conversely, stop taking any pans whatsoever to take mass shooters alive, and widely publish photos of their ruined heads.

  • sharmota4zeb||

    That works.

  • Robert||

    How about if the media refrain from reporting such events at all? No news, no panic about the nx.

  • Buddy Bizarre||

    Then they wouldn't be doing their job. The American Psychological Association (?) put out a suggested best practices for media organizations to minimize the 'contagion' factor of these incidents. I think a few orgs follow, but most do not.

  • Robert||

    But nobody would know they weren't doing their job, so what's the dif? They could make up anything they wanted. It would make their jobs easier, too.

  • You're Kidding||

    It's what he and, all of the others were after.

    Only he didn't have the cajones to off himself before capture which is the usual plan for egomaniac psychopaths like this.

    There is no preventative action to stop people like this from acting out, short of identifying them early on and eliminating them from the gene pool.

    But, that wouldn't fly too well with causes of all types.

  • Rich||

    'It's time we strip the NRA of its stranglehold over our children's lives.' — Elizabeth Warren

    'It's time we strip the video game industry of its stranglehold over our children's lives.'

    'It's time we strip social media of its stranglehold over our children's lives.'

    'It's time we strip the public education system of its stranglehold over our children's lives.'

    'It's time we strip Congress of its stranglehold over our children's lives.'

    ...

  • Sevo||

    Fauxcahontas is an entirely too easy target for satire; the jokes write themselves.

  • Elias Fakaname||

    Your plans to strip congress make me fearful of not being blind.

  • Ken Shultz||

    "The libertarian response to mass shootings, including school shootings, has been to assert the primacy of the Constitution, highlight positive trends, and to point toward other statistics intended to calm public fears. That may not be enough to withstand a number of counter-trends, however, including fears that mass shootings are becoming more common and gun ownership needs to be more-tightly restricted".

    You left off the part about how using the government to violate the rights of gun owners who have done nothing wrong is an excruciatingly obvious example of injustice.

  • Rich||

    "No justice, no peace"?

  • Nardz||

    Something tells me that we're getting closer there

  • sharmota4zeb||

    Look, throwing rocks and launchng missiles is one thing, but Democrats freak out over guns and campaign financing. Maybe the NRA could win them over by thowing Molotov cocktails at their district offices.

  • Elias Fakaname||

    It's all ok for democrats as long as the bloodthirsty killers are Muslims.

  • LarryA||

    You left off the part about how using the government to violate the rights of gun owners who have done nothing wrong is an excruciatingly obvious example of injustice.

    True, it is an "obvious example of injustice." (Because I'm as strong a Second Amendment advocate as anyone here.)

    But I also do public relations. To parents who aren't ardent 2A people, the gun-owner rights argument is irrelevant, and you aren't going to convince them otherwise. Argue that your, or their right to keep and bear arms is more important than their child's safety, and they'll vote against you every time.

    If you want to convince people to vote against "violating the rights of gun owners" you have to give them a reason that they respect. In order to win their votes you have to show them that gun control makes their child's life more dangerous.

  • Ken Shultz||

    Luckily, we're not trying to convince crime victims of anything. We're going for third parties--people just like me.

    An excellent reason not to perpetrate injustice against innocent people is because they haven't done anything wrong.

    If you want to use the coercive power of government and the criminal justice system to go after people who haven't done anything wrong, then you need to hear about the fundamental injustice you want to perpetrate against innocent people. It is absolutely necessary for you to hear about it.

    I'd compare it to the drug war, but what the gun grabbers want to do is much worse than that. You could argue that people can't use crack cocaine without at least hurting themselves, but the gun grabbers don't even have that fig leaf to hide behind. They want to use drug war style laws to go after a hundred million Americans who own guns and never hurt anybody--not even themselves.

    I won't shut up about people advocating injustice like they're morally superior. Their moral superiority is a fraud.

  • sharmota4zeb||

    The death toll of the drug war motivates some people to oppose the drug war. Hmmmm

  • Ben_||

    Bullying innocent gun owners isn't a "rights" issue. If you can't convince someone that scapegoating innocents is wrong, then the person you're talking to is simply evil — and with unambiguously evil people out there looking for victims, being armed is the only non-suicidal choice.

  • You're Kidding||

    Couldn't we replace "gun owners" with "immigrants" and come to the same conclusion?

  • Rich||

    "But this time definitely feels different. "

    Just like every time before it: "Never again" and "this has been going on for too long" and "DO SOMETHING".

  • Rich||

    "Those of us who value our #2A rights had better come up with something."

    A lotta guys might say: "Those of us who would deny our #2A rights had better come up with something."

  • Brian||

    In other news, progressive journalists fawn over a royal wedding: a taxpayer-funded celebration of both hereditary monarchy and some of the richest land owners in all of England. Because equality.

  • ||

    Seriously. Royalty = better dressed hicks and magical wizards. I don't get the fascination at all.

  • Crusty Juggler||

    That's because you are trash.

  • Chipper Morning Baculum||

    Crusty went through several boxes of tissues today, watching the Royal wedding. He cried, too.

  • Deconstructed Potato||

    Is there such a thing as a non-magical wizard?

  • Nardz||

    John Wall

  • Nardz||

    My bad - I forgot libertarians can't be basketball fans, only hockey.
    ...hosers!

  • Sevo||

    "Royalty = better dressed hicks and magical wizards."

    She has skinny legs, too.

  • Elias Fakaname||

    "In other news, progressive journalists fawn over a royal wedding: a taxpayer-funded celebration of both hereditary monarchy and some of the richest land owners in all of England. Because equality."

    That equality is only meant for the masses, to equally share nothing but the crumbs the socialist chooses to offer the masses.

  • You're Kidding||

    Tell the soft headed proletariat that.

  • Rich||

    It can also mean having meaningful, informed, empathetic conversations with people on the other side of a particularly controversial and fraught issue.

    "NO!! It is YOU that are wrong!"

  • Sevo||

    "It can also mean having meaningful, informed, empathetic conversations with people on the other side of a particularly controversial and fraught issue."

    I'm guessing Nick never tried to engage Tony, or turd or Hihn.

  • Elias Fakaname||

    I'm long over the notion that the progressives can be engaged in any meaningful debate on a large scale. The last 18 months have proven that things can't be settled at the ballot box. It will take real action to stop them.

  • Karen24||

    What do you mean by 'real action?'

  • You're Kidding||

    Exactly what you're thinking.

    The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants. It is its natural manure," Jefferson

  • Longtorso, Johnny||

    Tighten up security at schools: one entrance, multiple emergency exits. Station armed security. A rash of failed school shootings will make it look like pointless suicide instead of going out in a blaze of glory, stopping the copycat problem.

    School security violates no deeply held left wing principles. The right wants it. If the left joins in it happens tomorrow. The left fights it because they are the ones who want dead children, to use as weapons against people they hate,

  • Rev. Arthur L. Kirkland||

    Modern, decent, tolerant, education, reason-based, successful people (residing in strong communities) don't hate backward, superstitious, bigoted, ignorant yahoos (residing in can'-keep-up rural and southern backwaters, on the wrong end of generations of bright flight).

    The betters want to limit the influence of the lessers, though, and have fewer of them. For example, they want to provide a lifeline to enable smart, ambitious young people to escape the yahoo towns at high school graduation, enabling them to reach strong campuses and modern, successful communities to pursue education, opportunity, and modernity.

  • MichaeI Hihn||

    Hemingway would like to have a word with you there, Dumas.

  • Chipper Morning Baculum||

    You misspelled "dumbass."

  • MichaeI Hihn||

    You just had to go pointing out that there was more than the obvious literary reading, and NOW, mister, people are going to check what I write for nuance and double entendre.

    You fucking bastard, is what I'm saying. Shhh.

  • lulz farmer||

    How many of the dregs of the third world that you're importing by the million do you wager are better people than the flyover country rednecks you disdain? Your children (if you have any -- not holding my breath on that one) will find out, and how useful your African studies degrees will be when that payment comes due.

  • Eric||

    Those 3rd world "dregs" are more ambitious and brave than you or any of the other navivists who oppose them. They are willing to leave their shitty situations and travel to a country full of hostile assholes....all in the hopes of making a better life for themselves and their families. I'll take that any day over some entitled Murican who doesn't understand the history of what made his country great.

  • lulz farmer||

    If they really were all of these things then their own countries wouldn't be toilets, and parts of our countries wouldn't be turned into section that resemble their countries propped up by our redistributed wealth.

    Go preview the future you xenophilic losers want today; move to Brazil and live in the favelas of Rio. That's what your children will experience if they're not part of the moneyed elite in the future. You can go live that future today, though.

  • Chipper Morning Baculum||

    That goes both ways, dumdum. If you are so great, why does your state rely on federal subsidies?

    And anyone with a speck of intelligence knows that you can't blame the oppressed for their oppressors.

  • sharmota4zeb||

    The Erie Canal? FYI, there is a reason no one but me parks where I park without buying or selling.

  • Sevo||

    "Those 3rd world "dregs" are more ambitious and brave than you or any of the other navivists who oppose them."

    A woman we (wife and I) know manages a pretty busy restaurant in SF; if it wasn't it would have gone belly-up. 200 seats? At least half a turn for lunch, kitchen staff of 15, front end close, maybe a bit more. The restaurant is one of several owned by the folks we also know.
    One of the regulars is a lawyer, who got her to successfully apply for citizenship ('cause Trump!). I do not know the details, but there was a bit of congratulatory celebration when was sworn in; I lifted one.
    "Dregs" she never was, but she is now planning a trip to Europe under a US pass port.
    So?
    First, she's 'brown' (Spanish-speaking), but she'd be hired by anyone wanting competence. In spite of being 'illegal'. English-speakers work for her and are happy to do so.
    Secondly, she had to be 'scared' into getting that US ticket, but now she *can* travel, where in the past she simply could not.
    You can argue for a stateless world, but I was happy to have the US pass port when I was in the nether regions of far west China and the 'Stans.
    Draw your own conclusions from this; let's see 'em and see 'em supported.

  • sharmota4zeb||

    Ok, quick straw poll: I left some of my papperwork at home. Is it ok for me to catch the next flight from Romania to Israel, enter with my USA passport as a tourist, and then live and work there indefinitely? A person can get by there with only English for some strange reason.

  • sharmota4zeb||

    It is not genetics; it is the threat of deportation should they get uppity that makes some folks prefer immigrants. My friend from Afghanistan has a baby mama from Florida who leans Democrat and threatens to deport him when she is in one of her moods. She is White, but the Black social worker who practically raised her backs her stance.

  • You're Kidding||

    But history tells us they make good slaves!

  • the original jack||

    Poor Artie... when he posts no one ever knows whether or not it is him or one of his many successful mockers borrowing his name. Must be a tough way to go thru life being a living Poe's Law example.

  • Brett Bellmore||

    The thing to remember is that, when you've got a multiple personality disorder, they're ALL "your" personalities. None of them have a special claim to being the one true you.

    I think they're all Artie.

  • sharmota4zeb||

    And a low birthrate requires a system for inductrination and recruitment.

  • CE||

    Or handmaids.

  • Elias Fakaname||

    Arty conservatives and,inertarains are your betters. For example, you will now address me as 'Master'. In fact, the collective worth of progressive lives is not equal to the value of any single natural right of which I am imbued.

    You should celebrate the extreme patience and generosity of your betters. For if we decided it, your kind would be swept aside at a a pace your tiny imagination cannot comprehend. You would be off the map and gone.

  • Rev. Arthur L. Kirkland||

    Guys like you have been skid marks on the soles of guys like me -- the liberal-libertarian mainstream -- throughout our lifetimes.

    Losing the culture war seems to make you guys cranky.

    Good. I like my right-wingers muttery, bitter, and disaffected.

  • Sevo||

    Rev. Arthur L. Kirkland|5.20.18 @ 2:03PM|#
    "Guys like you have been skid marks on the soles of guys like me -- the liberal-libertarian mainstream -- throughout our lifetimes."

    Guys like you, ignorant lefty hypocrites, are the skid marks in my shorts.

  • Elias Fakaname||

    Arty, you're a weak little pussy. You and your friends are afraid of real fight. My friends and I are armed, trained, and aren't afraid to fight. We run most of the businesses, and have superior edcication and intellect.

    You couldn't step on a real American, even if you weren't so gutless as to even try. Best you just learn to obey.

  • Red Rocks White Privilege||

    Still twice as articulate as Dumbfuck Hihnsano.

  • Linda C||

    backwardness superstition and bigotry are slightly more common among Democrats, but what is really shocking is 75% of all US murder, comprising the entire elevation over developed democracy averages, occurs in 58 out of 3,000 US counties -- every one of them run by and predominantly people with Democrats.

    Democrats are about twice as likely to be flat earth on vaccines and think they cause autism, Democrats are more lily to think the sun revolved around the earth, and Democrats are twice as likely to believe in astrology. Democrats are more likely to be unemployed, as well.

    I don't care about those problems. What I care about the fact that Democrats are many times more likely to be murderers.

  • DJK||

    Successful communities? Such as which? The inner cities are failing to a far, far worse extent than the rural areas. These are the strongest of progressive strongholds. The most successful communities are the middle suburbs. They are not nearly as progressive in their thought as you'd like.

  • Linda C||

    backwardness superstition and bigotry are slightly more common among Democrats, but what is really shocking is 75% of all US murder, comprising the entire elevation over developed democracy averages, occurs in 58 out of 3,000 US counties -- every one of them run by and predominantly people with Democrats.

    Democrats are about twice as likely to be flat earth on vaccines and think they cause autism, Democrats are more lily to think the sun revolved around the earth, and Democrats are twice as likely to believe in astrology. Democrats are more likely to be unemployed, as well.

    I don't care about those problems, I care about the fact that Democrats are many times more likely to be murderers.

  • Star1988||

    "School security violates no deeply held left wing principles. The right wants it. If the left joins in it happens tomorrow. The left fights it because they are the ones who want dead children, to use as weapons against people they hate"

    You are completely fucking insane if you think that ANYONE wants their child to be murdered. Seriously. Fucking. Nuts.

    The guy who wrote this article is putting out a call for reasoned, sane arguments, and you come up with this?

  • WoodChipperBob||

    No one wants *their* child to be murdered. But if school shootings were to somehow suddenly stop, do you think that the proponents of increased gun control would suddenly stop calling for new gun laws? And do you think, if they didn't stop calling for gun control, some of them wouldn't find themselves wishing for a school shooting somewhere in flyover country so they could point to it and say "See! We need gun control!"?

  • You're Kidding||

    Never let a good crisis go to waste.

  • Star1988||

    "School security violates no deeply held left wing principles. The right wants it. If the left joins in it happens tomorrow. The left fights it because they are the ones who want dead children, to use as weapons against people they hate"

    You are completely fucking insane if you think that ANYONE wants their child to be murdered. Seriously. Fucking. Nuts.

    The guy who wrote this article is putting out a call for reasoned, sane arguments, and you come up with this?

  • Texasmotiv||

    Read it again.

  • Tankboy||

    There are armed guards at many public buildings - banks, airports and government offices, for instance - we absolutely need guards in schools. We will never be able to weed out the would-be attackers with new restrictions on gun ownership. The anti-Second Amendment activists set up these gun free (read: soft target) areas specifically to get the political leverage they are now using after each atrocity. It's time to stop playing politics with children's lives and start protecting our kids.

  • You're Kidding||

    Even some grocery and retail stores have armed guards.

    I'm an old guy. I'm having a really hard time accepting this.

    If a mall or store is so bad, maybe I don't want to shop there. Amazon has risen so fast for many reasons.

  • sharmota4zeb||

    The ctrl-left in urban areas already implemented school security decades ago. The ctrl-left in suburban areas prefer dead kids to schools that look urban.

  • MyCroftxXx||

    Ha Ctrl Left. alt right this is great. so a racist porgressive would be a CTRL-ALT-DEmocrat.

  • lulz farmer||

    Maybe you should figure out what has changed since, say, 1930 when a 12 year old boy could (if he had the money) order a belt-fed machine gun out of a catalog and have it delivered to his home, and when there used to be target shooting clubs in public schools where boys brought in rifles, to now, the current year, where these things happen regularly.

    Of course, once you acknowledge what has changed and that doing anything about all of this is against your hyper-atomized individualist, open borders, no national identity or cohesiveness worldview then the conclusion will be that nothing can be done. It will continue to get worse and you will continue to shill for policies that will assure it gets worse. Doesn't affect your gated community just like dumping millions of third world peasants on the working and middle class plebes didn't affect you, so why should you care other than to wring your hands with garbage blog posts where you have no interest in exploring what has caused any of this.

  • Anastasia Beaverhausen||

    It was a matter of time before some yutz yelled "open borders", which is entirely irrelevant to this discussion. How many school shootings are committed by illegal aliens? None - they're nearly all done by mentally disturbed alienated nerdy white boys, who in the 80s would simply turn to the Libertarian Party to find chicks (and then run away when they found that women weren't into the LP) but now are turning to the internet and guns.

  • lulz farmer||

    Yes, alienated white boys like Cho Seung-Hui and Nicholas Cruz. The whitest of the white -- a Korean and a Jewish Mestizo. Pure 100% Scandinavians there, my friend.

    Though, good point about libertarianism. It's part of why it's a pipe dream. Everyone who's looked at a libertarian conference knows it's overwhelmingly white men and no efforts at outreach will change this because either the demographic you're attempting to reach is too dumb to understand the purely ivory tower bafflegab, or in the case of east Asians too smart to be drawn in by purely theoretical garbage that has never withstood even a basic game theory analysis.

  • Ymmarta||

    Cruz was adopted; his actual genetic ancestry is unknown.

  • Chipper Morning Baculum||

    You know what else has never withstood a basic game theory analysis? Every system of ethics ever. Yet most people seem to find value in such things, except a few weirdos like you.

  • Naaman Brown||

    "It is laughable to observe how easily any system of Philosophy can be proved false; but then is it not mournful to perceive the impossibility of even fancing any particular system to be true?"
    -- Edgar Allan Poe, Marginalia

  • chemjeff radical individualist||

    Shhh! It's always the fault of the brown people! Don't you know anything? Why, it was all of those brown people in Klebold's and Harris's lily-white Denver suburb that caused them to shoot up their highschool.

  • MyCroftxXx||

    one grew up in WT michigan ala McVeigh

  • Linda C||

    Black males do commit mass shootings at elevated rates, and normal everyday shootings that are 99% of US murder at hugely increased rates.

    Illegal aliens also commit murder ate elevated rates.

    go look at "Everytowns" own compilation of "mass shootings" Black males 16-55 are 6% of the population yet commit 34% of them.

  • Crusty Juggler||

    alienated nerdy white boys, who in the 80s would simply turn to the Libertarian Party

    More like metal and/or Dungeons & Dragons.

  • SIV||

    Jaylen Ray Fryberg

    Playing identity politics with who disproportionately commits criminal homicide with a firearm is a losing game for gun-grabbers.

  • Emotional Opposition Animal||

    Most headline shootings have been perpetrated by white males. True.

    Since you consider the race of the perpetrator of homicide to be relevant, now let's look at the racial makeup of murderers in general.

  • Linda C||

    Black males commit mass shooting at triple the per capita rate white makes do. So stop saying white males.

    And black males age 16-55 are 6% of the Us population and commit 36% of murder of police, 41% of all violent weapons crime, and 51% of all US gun murder.

    Illegal aliens commit murder an including mass shootings at a 40% increased rate over the background

  • CE||

    1930? Try 1980, when every boy in my school went deer hunting and half the class was gone on opening day of hunting season, and many students took their rifles with them to leave early that day to go hunting. And no one ever shot each other. Or used a knife in a fight for that matter -- the point of a fight was to prove who was tougher, not to kill the other guy.

  • You're Kidding||

    In the mid 1970s, I regularly carried a 12 gauge and ammo in the trunk of my car or in the camper shell of my truck to my high school - a Catholic HS no less - in a San Francisco suburb with just under 100,000 population. Many people knew about it and no one got excited.

    They knew I was going pheasant or duck hunting after a half day session, in the nearby California Delta.

    You don't have to go back as far as the 1930s to find a time when people didn't get all freaked about a gun that wasn't pointing at them.

  • Elias Fakaname||

    Every last bit of this is the fault of the progressives. From their emasculating policies, to their insistence of drugging perfectly normal boys. All to feminize them and make them the progressive beta make ideal.

  • Red Rocks White Privilege||

    Dumbfuck Hihnsano desperately trying to get in the last word.

  • Ken Shultz||

    Incidentally, if you're somebody who only remembers what the Constitution says about the right to bear arms when that right comes under threat, then you haven't been doing the Second Amendment any favors.

    If you've called on congress to ignore the First Amendment and discriminate against Muslims in immigration policy, you've stabbed the argument for respecting the Second Amendment in the back.

    If you've argued that the courts should ignore congress' enumerated power to set the rules of naturalization or that cities should be free to ignore the Constitution, then you've stabbed the argument for respecting the Second Amendment in the back.

    I would have supported Trump's recent retaliation against Assad for using chemical weapons--except that it was unconstitutional. How could I support something unconstitutional like that and then expect people to take me seriously when I assert the primacy of First and Second Amendment protections for my rights?

    I've seen people in these pages recently argue for Trump to respect an unconstitutional agreement with Iran that violated a thoroughly constitutional NPT treaty.

    People should be forgiven if they can't tell the difference between libertarians who only care about the Constitution when it suits them for other reasons and people who don't give a shit about the Constitution. When we undermine our own arguments that way, it's our own fault.

  • Emotional Opposition Animal||

    If you've called on congress to ignore the First Amendment and discriminate against Muslims in immigration policy, you've stabbed the argument for respecting the Second Amendment in the back.

    Which nobody's ever done. The ban targeted people who were not Muslim as well, and over 90% of the world's Muslims would not have been affected by the travel ban. And of course, the first amendment only protects free exercise within US jurisdiction, which the tiny fraction of Muslims who would be affected by the ban are not.

  • Ken Shultz||

    "Which nobody's ever done."

    Are you saying that Trump's travel ban doesn't violate the First Amendment, or are you saying that no one has ever called for congress to discriminate against Muslims in immigration policy?

    My argument was not about what politicians have done or do.

    My argument was addressed to people like you and me--in the lunchroom, around the dinner table, around the water cooler, at church, talking to the guy on the next bar stool, etc.

    I assure you, there are plenty of people out there arguing that congress should discriminate against Muslims in immigration policy--and whether they realize it or not, they're watering down support for the Second Amendment when they do that.

    Because we respect other people's right to freedom of religion is an excellent reason why they should respect our right to bear arms. And it works that way with all kinds of things. Unfortunately, it works the other way, too. If we refuse to respect, for instance, other people's freedom of religion, that's one reason why people wouldn't feel compelled to respect our right to bear arms.

  • Nardz||

    That's an interesting question.
    "Congress should discriminate against Muslims for immigration."
    IS that a violation of the 1st amendment, or even 1st amendment principles?
    I'm not so sure.

  • Ken Shultz||

    "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof"

    ----First Amendment

    You'd have to get just as or more creative with the text of the First Amendment to make it say that it's okay for congress to make rules for naturalization that discriminate against Muslims than how creative gun grabbers get to make the Second Amendment somehow mean that we don't have the right to bear arms.

  • Brett Bellmore||

    It doesn't require you to be very creative, you know. The establishment clause had to do with state churches. Several of the states had established religions at the time, and none of the states wanted the federal government to involve itself in the topic, either pro or con.

    As for prohibiting the free exercise of religion, "You continue freely exercising your religion. Just do it somewhere else." isn't a violation, either.

  • Ben_||

    Trump's travel ban doesn't establish a religion, so it doesn't violate the 1st Amendment on that account.

    It also doesn't violate anyone's Constitutionally protected rights because foreign nationals on foreign soil outside US jurisdiction don't have rights protected by the US Constitution. The US Constitution doesn't apply to them at all.

    I don't think Muslims should be scapegoated because scapegoating innocent people is wrong. But the travel ban didn't do that — it didn't apply to most of the biggest Muslim countries. It was about knowing the background of travelers, and some countries didn't provide the sort of background info the State Department wanted. It was only for 90 days, to provide time for data collection to be worked out.

  • Ken Shultz||

    "Trump's travel ban doesn't establish a religion, so it doesn't violate the 1st Amendment on that account."

    If Trump's travel ban (the latest version anyway) doesn't give preferential treatment to or discriminate against anybody on the basis of their religion--but their country of origin--then it doesn't violate the First Amendment. If it applies the same to Christians, Muslims, Hindus, and Mormons from that country, then it's perfectly okay according to the First Amendment.

    But what the fuck does that have to do with anything I wrote?

    Did I not make it clear that I wasn't talking about what politicians did or do? Do you really not see why this observation is irrelevant to what I wrote?

  • Ken Shultz||

    "It also doesn't violate anyone's Constitutionally protected rights because foreign nationals on foreign soil outside US jurisdiction don't have rights protected by the US Constitution. The US Constitution doesn't apply to them at all."

    This is stupid horseshit with no basis in reality.

    Here's the text of the First Amendment:

    "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof"

    ----First Amendment

    The First Amendment applies to the U.S. government generally and the U.S. congress specifically. The U.S. government cannot do this, that, or the other, according to the First Amendment, and if you believe otherwise, then you're delusional.

    In fact, the framers did not believe our rights to religion, free speech, etc. derive from government, and it's insane to think that they would ever say that such natural rights only belong to people depending on where they are in the world. It just flies in the face of everything they believed in.

    The only rights American citizens have that others don't is the legal right to be here, the legal right to hold office, and the legal right to vote.

    Congress is tasked with setting the rules of naturalization by Article I, Section 8, and they're also prohibited from making rules that discriminate on the basis of religion by the First Amendment.

  • Ken Shultz||

    Congress shall make no law
    Congress shall make no law
    Congress shall make no law

    Say it over and over to yourself in your mind. Maybe what it means will sink in eventually.

  • Sevo||

    Ken Shultz|5.19.18 @ 10:37PM|#
    "Congress shall make no law
    Congress shall make no law
    Congress shall make no law
    Say it over and over to yourself in your mind. Maybe what it means will sink in eventually."

    I cannot BELIEVE the number of people posting here claiming to have libertarian sympathies who seem to think the Constitution "grants" rights.
    How hard can this be?
    "CONGRESS SHALL MAKE NO LAW"
    The Constitution does not "grant rights"; it limits the powers of the federal (and local) governments! You can look in vain to find a "Constitutional Right" to eat a hot-dog at the ball park; it's not there since the Constitution was never intended to "allow' anyone to do something. It says the government(s) can't keep you from doing so.
    How hard can this be?

  • Ken Shultz||

    And they have no basis for it! I can point to a handful of things--in the Constitution--that shoot this idea down, and it still persists. And it's so authoritarian. Is there a more authoritarian idea than the idea that our rights are created and defined by government? The idea that our rights exist independent of whether any government acknowledges or respects them is the first ten minutes of the first day of Libertarianism 101. Without that, what else is there?

    I suspect part of it is that that the Constitution does such a good job of approximating the rights that it protects, it's easy to imagine it's actually defining those rights--and granting them.

    On the other hand, the same people who want the courts to read the Second Amendment in plain language also want them to look at the First Amendment cross-eyed to justify congress violating freedom of religion. On the other hand, the same people who want the court to plainly read the First Amendment to protect fundamentalists' association rights also want them to look at the Fifth and Eighth Amendments cross-eyed to justify torturing terrorists.

    That's what makes people smirk at our insistence on a plain reading of the Second Amendment.

    They want to misinterpret everything the Constitution says in a way that makes their favorite violations somehow okay--and then they want to claim that our enemies are awful because they won't read the Second Amendment as it's written. That's just about intellectual honesty.

  • Ken Shultz||

    Oh, last time, the justification was the same kind of shit you hear from the gun grabbers, too.

    Sorry, we have to give up on the First Amendment and immigration--because if we don't, there's no way to stop the Muslim menace and their sharia.

    Might as well be the progressives talking about how we have to give up on the Second Amendment because of school shootings.

    What's the famous quote about how people who give up their freedom for security deserve neither? in both cases, we're talking about people selling our rights short out of cowardice.

  • Ben_||

    Visiting the US has no baring on anyone's free exercise of their religion. Which religion requires adherents to visit the US? Not Islam.

    Foreign nationals on foreign soil are free of US Congressional authority over their religious exercise. Congress made no law that impacts them in any way.

    Congress can choose who can and can't visit the US.

    You can say you disagree with the travel ban all you like. But if you want to make a legal argument, those are supposed to logically follow from the law. Chanting one phrase and ignoring everything else isn't the way.

    All this discussion is off topic. The topic is the 2nd Amendment as it applies to Americans, not the 1st Amendment and how it doesn't apply to foreign nationals who have never set foot on US soil.

  • Ken Shultz||

    Is intellectual honesty new to you? Do you imagine that because I agree with Trump's travel ban, that means I nave to support every argument for it--no matter how unconstitutional, unsupported, or stupid?

    Why can't you get it through your head that the First Amendment is a restriction on Congress and the U.S. government--just like it says?

    I'm quoting the verbiage of the Constitution and pointing out that your weird interpretation of the plain language of the First Amendment has no basis in history, the Constitution itself, or any plausible explanation of what the framers did and why.

    You seem to be making shit up, offering no evidence for your delusional beliefs whatsoever. Do you imagine that saying something over and over somehow makes it true? Do you imagine that having a rationalization divorced from any evidence or logic somehow means your delusion is true?

    So far I've seen nothing from you--except restatements of your own delusion. I suspect one of the reasons you haven't offered any evidence for your weird claim that the First Amendment only applies to people within our borders is because you can't find any.

    Yes, congress is tasked with setting the rules of immigration in Article I, Section 8, AND congress is prohibited from setting those rules in any way that they violates the First Amendment in regards to freedom of religion. I've already pointed that out. Why are you saying the same unsupported shit over and over again--after it's already been debunked?

  • Ken Shultz||

    P.S. Your willful misrepresentation of the First Amendment = the gun grabbers willful misrepresentation of the Second Amendment.

    In fact, your willful attempts to violate the First Amendment is carrying water for the gun grabbers' attempts to violate the Second.

    When you make like the First Amendment doesn't means what it says, and then turn around and fault the gun grabbers for misrepresenting the plain language of the Second Amendment, you're pulling the rug out from under the primacy of both the First and Second Amendments.

    The difference between someone who only cares about the Constitution when it suits their other agendas and someone who doesn't give a shit about what the Constitution says is negligible.

    If someone wanted to find a better way to undermine the constitutional arguments for respecting our rights, they could hardly come up with a better strategy than what you're doing. Have you considered becoming a progressive? They love people who twist and ignore the text of the Constitution like you do.

  • Ben_||

    And if Congress had said "no Islam as a condition of entry into the US" then you might have a point. But that's not what the travel ban did. Muslims from most of the largest Muslim countries faced zero restrictions from the travel ban. And there were no special considerations for non-Muslims from countries like Yemen on the ban list.

    The thing that was unconstitutional was the judges making things up and ignoring precedent.

  • Elias Fakaname||

    The travel ban only concerns specific nations which present a current challenge to security. Most Islamic nations are not included in the ban.. therefore it is not a 'Muslim ban'.

  • Ecoli||

    Let's say we revoke the second amendment. There would still be no federal authority to ban fire arms.

    To me, the most effective thing that could be done to prevent more school shootings would be to ban any reporting of them. Of course, we are right back to shredding the constitution if we do that.

  • loveconstitution1789||

    There is technically no federal authority to ban anything. This includes drugs.

    The Prohibitionists knew this which is why they pushed the 18th Amendment.

  • Robert||

    How about simply not to report them? No ban, just don't do it.

    Not only that, but how about propagating cover stories for them? Lying isn't illegal.

  • Ecoli||

    I like the concept, but it has a fatal flaw: it relies on the self-restraint of the media. The media would happily eat their children if it gave them a Nielsen bump.

  • Robert||

    What restraint? They'd lie like the dickens. If all nx became fake, that'd be a Nielsen bump right there.

  • Mock-star||

    +1 Bat boy

  • damikesc||

    Progs are TERRIFIED at the concept of responsibility.

    Dont want to get shot up at school?Well, the SHOOTER isnt deterred by murder laws, so gun laws wont stop it. You dont want a gestapo. So, defend yourself with guns.

    It is the only solution.

  • WoodChipperBob||

    "You don't want a gestapo." No, I don't. But not everybody is me. There are plenty of people who want a gestapo to enforce their version of what the world should be like. Various factions on the far right want a gestapo to enforce their version of religious morality, or of ethnic purity. Various factions on the left want a gestapo to enforce their version of tolerance and social justice, or of ethnic diversity.

  • damikesc||

    Progs are TERRIFIED at the concept of responsibility.

    Dont want to get shot up at school?Well, the SHOOTER isnt deterred by murder laws, so gun laws wont stop it. You dont want a gestapo. So, defend yourself with guns.

    It is the only solution.

  • MichaeI Hihn||

    We could talk about bullying, we could talk about SSRIs, we could talk about public schools and the rising depression, anxiety, and suicide rates in children and teens. But we're gonna talk guns instead.

    I don't want new laws, I want new conversations. These ones aren't working.

  • lulz farmer||

    You could also talk about the demographics of your country morphing into an alienating third world sewer where things like this happen regularly, like in the Indian subcontinent. I guess that's too inconvenient and against the open borders fanatics and their profit at all costs credo, though.

  • MichaeI Hihn||

    Weren't you just upthread all "Don't be collectivising!" when someone suggested this was a white boy problem?

    This looks similar to a primate battle for dominance. I'm going to suggest that the tactics don't become good tactics depending on which side is using them. Would you like to play a game, Professor?

    I have a suggestion. We can have two comment threadings. Everyone who would like to participate in a zero-sum battle for dominance can go to one, and the people who want to talk can go to the other.

    And because it's this place, a third for the people who want to mock threadings, a fourth for sexy Asian cat videos, a fifth for people to duke it out over a completely unrelated subject, a sixth devoted to someone's mother, and a seventh, eighth, and ninth for music, lifestyle, and current events.

  • lulz farmer||

    No, I was pointing out that the narrative there about evil whitey isn't even true (it's a media construct via propaganda methods) and if you look at the actual crime stats then you're in for a real shock since the black gangbangers outdo everyone else put together by a lot. I think that this pejorative terms people wave around like magical talismans like "collectivism!" or "identity politics!" are just Orwellian terms for something normal; group interests. I live in the real world of is rather than of ought, though.

    I can accurately perceive reality here, and reality is that there are zero sum things out there like land and carry capacity. Also, being forced to live together with people you'd rather not since your government has stripped you of freedom of association as well as begun redistributing things from you to others isn't good. If you really cared about minimizing conflict you wouldn't be for radically transforming countries into these "diverse" sewers. If something's actually natural and good for you, you don't need to "tolerate" it. You can throw out all of these bromides about me pining for the "good old days" and nonsense about people who weren't even here "knowing their place" but the fact is you're the lunatic trying to force us together and creating these conflicts which lead to violence, all while ensconced in your gated communities where you deal with none of it.

    History is not some linear progress towards bigger and better things, you ideological dopes.

  • Ymmarta||

    Then explain to us why these mass shootings aren't happening in ghetto schools.

  • Red Rocks White Privilege||

    Because these guys are shooting each other outside of school grounds.

  • WoodChipperBob||

    Because if someone wanted to commit a mass shooting in a ghetto school they would first have to shoot their way past the security guards at the metal detector, which would serve as adequate warning to the armed police officer that's lingering nearby that perhaps he needs to ready himself for action. And the potential shooters see this setup every day and even in their wildest flights of revenge fantasy, realize that they are going to get gunned down by the cop at the front door, rather than killing Sarah who dumped them, or John who bullied them, or the math teacher that called them stupid.

  • MichaeI Hihn||

    Yes, yes, I'm evil, I'm stupid, buzzword bingo, One True Way, shake that finger of disapproval.

    Let me know when that works.

  • Rev. Arthur L. Kirkland||

    It appears lulz farmer is reaching his breaking point with respect to all of this damned education, science, reason, tolerance, inclusivity, and progress. He may even have begun to recognize that the good old days for which he pines -- when "regular" Americans set the tone and blacks, gays, women, agnostics, foreigners, Jews, atheists, point-headed professor types, and others knew their place -- are never coming back. Mainly because the good old days never existed.

    Carry on, clingers. Maybe pick a tile room when your head finally explodes from all of this progress.

  • Nardz||

    So many words.
    Nothing to say.

    Carry on, whiner

  • sharmota4zeb||

    Psych meds are often associated with mass shootings.

  • josh||

    The greatest barrier to any version of "something" is the gun control crowd. They increasingly aren't interested in facts and the only solution they want to discuss starts with less guns. Any effort at extending an olive branch so we can work thru this problem together will be met with declarations of how you have blood on your hands if you don't see that they're just talking "common sense".

    Doesn't mean the gun rights side of things don't need to work on their PR skills. They most sincerely do. It just means that they'll have to settle for small victories, because we live in an emotional world. A billion or so people are watching a wedding right about now and thinking how wonderful it all is, when it amounts to an elaborate welfare project. Common sense is a slogan, but it doesn't mean they have much of it, so tread carefully.

  • Crusty Juggler||

    Would would would would wouldn't

  • lap83||

    So you would make love to Warren 4 times and stop at the 5th?

    (almost wrote "had sex" but obviously she's not that type, don't forget the Native American poetry to get her in the mood)

  • Crusty Juggler||

    I'd let her blow my peace pipe, if you know what I mean.

  • Nardz||

    Gross.
    Remember, she has nasty feet

  • Crusty Juggler||

  • Nardz||

    NOT clicking that link

  • AlmightyJB||

    I'll take 1 and 2, you can have 3 and 4. Seems fair.

  • Crusty Juggler||

    ^ Typical man.

  • chemjeff radical individualist||

    Something that the gun rights advocates really need to wrap their heads around is that only about 30% of Americans own guns. That means 70% do not. What's more, only about half of those who don't own a gun have even fired a gun in their lives. That means, a good one-third of the country don't own guns, and have probably never even held a gun, let alone shot a gun. For this 1/3 of the country, their ONLY exposure to guns is from the popular media - movies, video games, etc. THOSE guns are not "real guns", but imaginary death machines that never need cleaning, never need reloading, and don't require any skill to use effectively. Trying to get through to these people about the importance of the right to own a gun is not likely to be terribly effective. What might be more effective is for popular media to depict guns in a more realistic fashion.

  • SimonP||

    I've never owned or fired a gun, and don't particularly want to. Explain to me why the "right to own a gun" is so important.

    Libertarians like to talk about resisting government tyranny, but they don't seem to grasp that the rest of us aren't particularly enthused about the idea of a self-appointed amateur militia of undereducated gun nuts deciding it's time to overthrow the government. The dipshits here talking about how "tax is theft" are not the ones I want writing our next Constitution. Thanks though.

  • Rev. Arthur L. Kirkland||

    Now let's try and guess what's gonna happen to these people.

    With the help of educated and progressive citizens, they benefit from a long struggle against backwardness and intolerance, in particular against the type of bigoted, half-educated southern whites who are the backbone of today's Republican-conservative electoral coalition?

  • American Mongrel||

    Artie reveals himself to e another peckerwood white bot who thinks us dumb begroes need him to save us

  • Mock-star||

    "With the help of educated and progressive citizens, they benefit from a long struggle against backwardness and intolerance"

    White Man's Burden: The Post

  • WoodChipperBob||

    "They benefit from a long struggle" - no, they don't. Eventually, their descendants might, but no one who had their rights trampled on in 1865 lived long enough to see the benefit.

  • SimonP||

    So are you saying that gun nuts are modern-day second-class citizens, who need to worry about being attacked and lynched while just trying to live out their ordinary lives? Or...?

  • Mock-star||

    "So are you saying that gun nuts are modern-day second-class citizens, who need to worry about being attacked and lynched while just trying to live out their ordinary lives?"

    No. Just the opposite, in fact. Because we're armed.

  • Rev. Arthur L. Kirkland||

    I hope the predictable, reasonable backlash against gun absolutism does not interfere with a right to possess a reasonable firearm in the home.

    But if gun nuts want to choose "the full LaVoy," be my guest.

    Carry on, clingers. Try to lose the culture war with less whining, though.

  • Red Rocks White Privilege||

    If the soyboys want to choose "the full Kent State," be my guest, hicklib.

  • Violent Sociopath||

    But if gun nuts want to choose "the full LaVoy," be my guest.

    It's going to be fucking hilarious when cretins like you are forced to come to grips with the fact that we're not disarming, period.

  • SimonP||

    You might pay attention to the thread of discussion you're jumping into, just FYI.

  • Red Rocks White Privilege||

    You might want to go jump in front of a speeding subway, just FYI.

  • Crusty Juggler||

    lol

  • Emotional Opposition Animal||

    I've never had an abortion, and don't particularly want to. Explain to me why the "right to abortion" is so important.

  • SimonP||

    The so-called "right to abortion" is just one instance of a broader right to privacy that allows us to exercise autonomy over our own bodies, free of state interference.

    Your turn.

  • Red Rocks White Privilege||

    The so-called "right to abortion" is just one instance of a broader right to privacy that allows us to exercise autonomy over our own bodies, free of state interference.

    Yet you don't believe the right to keep and bear arms, which is explicitly stated in the 2nd Amendment, warrants the same protections. Telling, that.

  • EscherEnigma||

    Generally speaking, the easiest way to do that is to introduce the prospective new son-in-law.

  • Sevo||

    SimonP|5.19.18 @ 3:08PM|#
    "I've never owned or fired a gun, and don't particularly want to. Explain to me why the "right to own a gun" is so important."

    What do you own that I don't? Explain to me why I can't just make that illegal.
    Oh, and fuck off, slaver.

  • SimonP||

    If you can't answer the question, there's really no need to respond.

  • bevis the lumberjack||

    "Explain to me why the "right to own a gun" is so important."

    Because it's in the fucking Bill of Rights.

  • SimonP||

    That isn't really what I'm asking, though. The question is why it's important. Like, it is pretty clear to me that the freedom of speech is important in a democracy, as it allows us to organize and speak about government policy. The same goes for the Establishment Clause. But relative to those, I'd say that the "freedom of religion" is less important; rights to "equal protection" and "due process" tend to vary according to circumstances; and so on.

    So, in the larger view of the "Bill of Rights," the question is why the right to bear arms is there, and why it's supposed to be important. Understanding this importance would help us to understand the degree to which our law should be shaped to protect it.

  • Brett Bellmore||

    There are several reasons it's important.

    1. It IS in the Constitution, which means that it's either enforced, or we don't have the rule of law. And if we don't have the rule of law, none of the other protections in the Constitution mean squat, either.

    But, apparently, you think we can selectively lose the rule of law. That you can pick out parts of the Constitution to render void, and they'll only be the right parts, and the rest of it will stand unchallenged.

    That marks you as an idiot in my eyes.

    2. It's important because of the other aspirations of the people demanding we give it up.

    Look, when somebody demands that you render yourself defenseless, the default presumption is that they don't want you to be able to defend yourself from them. In the case of the left, who are the driving force behind the gun control movement, this is a highly plausible motivation, based on what they do wherever they have unchallenged power.

    So, no, I'm not giving up the ability to defend myself in response to demands that I give it up or else.

  • DJK||

    It's there because governments are the single biggest threat to human life. Governments are defined by their monopoly on the legal right to use force. That is an enormous power. It has been abused many times throughout human history, to the tune of hundreds of millions murdered by governments. An armed populace is a check against government abuses that lead to such slaughters. Multiple governments, included multiple governments in so-called enlightened Europe in the past century, have used gun bans as the first step in campaigns to execute their citizens by the millions or tens of millions. No matter how enlightened a government is supposed to be, there is always the threat that it will wage war against its populace.

  • DJK||

    It's also there because individuals may face a threat from non-government sources and may need to use force to defend themselves. We know, for instance, that there are between 1 million and 3 million defensive uses of guns in the U.S. every year. This is ~30 to ~100 times more frequently than guns are used to commit crimes. Guns can be used defensively by those who are about to be attacked to quickly end that attack (usually without shots fired - the threatened use of a gun is enough to ward off many would-be attackers). This is especially important for a threatened person who is smaller, weaker, less mobile, etc. than their attacker, who faces an armed attacker, etc.

  • DJK||

    In short, it's there because we recognize that individuals have an absolute right to defend themselves against would-be aggressors, whether those aggressors are individuals or organizations like government. Guns are the most effective tool for this purpose, though it should be noted that the 2nd Amendment also covers other types of weapons.

  • Sevo||

    SimonP|5.19.18 @ 3:08PM|#
    "I've never owned or fired a gun, and don't particularly want to. Explain to me why the "right to own a gun" is so important."

    Simon, you have been handed your hat on several occasions and yet you still return from time to time to post lefty bullshit.
    Are you capable of understanding why your bullshit is bullshit? Or are you trolling?

  • SimonP||

    Sevo, you're a fucking moron, so I don't give a shit what you have to say. Go suck a bag of dicks, for all I care.

  • CE||

    Germany 1938?

    On Nov. 11, 1938, the German minister of the interior issued "Regulations Against Jews Possession of Weapons." Not only were Jews forbidden to own guns and ammunition, they couldn't own "truncheons or stabbing weapons."

    In addition to the restrictions, Ellerbrock said the Nazis had already been raiding Jewish homes and seizing weapons.

    This from a "Politifact" article arguing that gun control laws didn't help Hitler and Co. kill 6 million Jews.

  • DJK||

    Politifact is an incredibly disingenuous organization that goes out of its way to reach a predetermined conclusion, even with the bulk of the evidence favors the opposite conclusion.

  • EscherEnigma||

    France, whose army presumably had guns, also could not stop Hitler. So I think putting the burden on Jews to stop their own massacre might be a bit much.

  • Red Rocks White Privilege||

    the idea of a self-appointed amateur militia of undereducated gun nuts deciding it's time to overthrow the government.

    Which has never happened in the entire nation's history, but thanks for projecting your own urbanite bugman idiocy onto every gun owner in the US.

  • lulz farmer||

    Not likely to happen. The owners and operators of what you call popular media have a vested interest in civilian disarmament so they can do what their near ancestors in Russia did about a hundred years ago.

  • JFree||

    Even more effective would be restoring militia service (or in today's world some sort of community service since it also involves natural disaster, search/rescue, and other stuff that could eliminate full-time bureaucrats). That would involve everyone becoming familiar with guns - along with everyone else. Thus eliminating a lot of the 'other' mindset too.

    Course in room full of libertarians that notion of mandatory service is as welcomed as a fart.

  • Sevo||

    JFree|5.19.18 @ 7:29PM|#
    "Course in room full of libertarians that notion of mandatory service is as welcomed as a fart."

    You're right. It takes a dim-bulb lefty to find compulsory government service a neat idea.
    Here's what I'd go for: You get drafted today, with no expiration date. Since you think it's a good idea, you've got to love that.

  • JFree||

    Since we ended the draft, we have been fearmongered into perpetual war and 9/11 turned out to be EXACTLY the sort of 'standing army is the biggest threat to liberty' event that the founders warned about. The entire purpose of ending conscription was not to eliminate pointless endless wars in the world's shitholes - but to eliminate OPPOSITION to those wars.

    It is not a surprise at all that a chickenhawk asswipe like you learns the wrong lesson. And doesn't have the slightest clue why the founders viewed an ORGANIZED militia as a necessary alternative to the standing army - and so put the 2nd in place.

  • Sevo||

    JFree|5.20.18 @ 12:27PM|#
    "Since we ended the draft, we have been fearmongered into perpetual war and 9/11 turned out to be EXACTLY the sort of 'standing army is the biggest threat to liberty' event that the founders warned about. The entire purpose of ending conscription was not to eliminate pointless endless wars in the world's shitholes - but to eliminate OPPOSITION to those wars."
    What a pile of non-sequitur bullshit; you should be proud.

    "It is not a surprise at all that a chickenhawk asswipe like you learns the wrong lesson. And doesn't have the slightest clue why the founders viewed an ORGANIZED militia as a necessary alternative to the standing army - and so put the 2nd in place."
    OK, slaver, show me ONCE where I have supported any war past WWII. Just once, you slimy piece of lefty shit. Once, please.

  • loveconstitution1789||

    Let boys be boys.

    Freaking out because boys make gun looking bread is part of this problem. Let boys play and rough house a bit.

    Girls get to be girls all they want.

  • CE||

    everyone gets to be whatever they choose these days....

  • Brett Bellmore||

    Except people who want to be what they actually are.

  • afk05||

    This "let boys be boys" comment is bullshit. The school shooters aren't acting too feminine. They get bullied for whatever reason, rejected by a girl (example of the last two shootings at the very least) or face other social problems with their peers, and they shoot up their classmates.

    Instead of letting "boys be boys", who bully other boys and make fun of them if they aren't popular or masculine, we need to teach these kids to handle rejection, feel less entitled, angry and to learn healthy ways to manage stress. Stop enabling them and making them entitled snowflakes who shoot up their school because their girlfriend broke up with them or some kids bullied them, or they hate the world.

    Put down the screens, video games and play with each other. Socialize in real life, not on social media. Psychotropic drugs and technology are fucking up the developing brains of children.

    While we are at it, we need to set a good example. All of this talk of bullying becoming extreme with kids, and we forget to look in the mirror. Any online message forum, new site or fb group is a glorious view of what divisive, immature, judgmental, bubble-living, hateful fucks adults have become. Kids learn from adults. Adults in our society have become absolute pieces of shit, easily distracted, comfortably numb keyboard warriors. And we wonder why our country is going to shit.

  • lap83||

    'It's time we strip the NRA of its stranglehold over our children's lives.'

    Ban the NRA from public schools!!!!

  • Crusty Juggler||

    Do YOU have a child in school?

    No.

    Have you ever considered that you MIGHT just be manipulated? Even a little? How would you know?

    Sure. Yes. I wouldn't.

    Does a government -- of and by the people -- have the power and the obligation to save those lives?

    No.

    And by what right do you deny that?

    My own free will.

  • Chipper Morning Baculum||

    What exactly is your point, Mary? In one sentence, please.

  • sharmota4zeb||

    His argument is ridiculous.

    My bad. I thought gun policy was the topic of conversation. Turn out, this is all about your mental superiority. Thanks for schoolong us.

  • sharmota4zeb||

    We are NOT endowed by a Creator with unalienable rights.

    Explain to me how this law thing stops most Americans from smoking pot.

  • Mock-star||

    No. You get nothing explained to you until you show how the right to life is in conflict with the right to possess a thing.

  • Sevo||

    Michael Hihn|5.20.18 @ 12:08PM|#
    "i did that here"

    Wherein Mike again proves he's a fucking ignoramus.
    That's a link to this thread, Mike; seek help.

  • Mock-star||

    He still hasnt shown how possessing a gun, any other arm, or anything really conflicts with the right to life. He will link to shooting statistics over and over again, while failing to realise that shootings dont occur from possession, sales, or buying (the things that the grabbers want to ban), but from improper USUAGE.....an action that is already illegal and pretty much everyone agrees should continue to be illegal.

    Jammed it up your ass again, you Bully. *snort*

  • Red Rocks White Privilege||

    Dumbfuck Hihnsano and his sub-literate idiocy.

  • Mock-star||

    AGAIN, You are confusing a right with actions.

    A gun isnt a right, its a gun
    The ability to keep and bear that gun (or knife or spear or any other arm) is the right.

    Keeping and bearing an arm conflicts with no other right. If it did, I would agree with you regarding conflicting rights. But the simple act of keeping and bearing harms exactly 0 other people.

    No, using them in an unjust manner (an action, not a right as you somehow keep getting precisely ass-backwards) constitutes a crime.....a crime that approximately everyone agrees should be a crime.

    Congrats!!! I just JAMMED it up your ass......again (snort)

  • Red Rocks White Privilege||

    Dumbfuck Hihnsano pimping his gun ban again, remains too stupid to explain how a right to life and a right to keep and bear arms are in conflict.

  • Red Rocks White Privilege||

    Dumbfuck Hihnsano claims the Second Amendment doesn't exist, nurse tries shoving anti-psychotic meds down his throat again.

  • Red Rocks White Privilege||

    Dumbfuck Hihnsano thinks his false dichotomy is an argument, thinks "the number is the conflict" like an ignoramus.

    Dumbfuck Hihnsano's IQ = Zero

  • Red Rocks White Privilege||

    Dumbfuck Hihnsano continues to think his false dichotomy is an argument because he desperately wants that gun ban.

  • Mock-star||

    Exactly this.

    Deaths caused by keeping and bearing arms remains what it has been since the very first rock was picked up and stick sharpened: 0

    There are innumerable deaths caused by the unjust use of those arms, and thats why pretty everyone agrees that that misuse should be (and is) illegal.

    I've jammed it up your ass so much now that my ass jamming muscles are getting tired and I need some icyhot. *snort*

    I

  • Mock-star||

    "HoW much proof do you need, goobers?"

    I'll even make this really easy for you. Provide one single cite to where simply keeping and bearing arms (as opposed to shooting/stabbing/whatever, whether negligently or intentionally - all of which is currently illegal) interfered with someone's right to life.

    PROTIP: You cant because it doesnt

  • Red Rocks White Privilege||

    Dumbfuck Hihnsano continues to think his false dichotomy is an argument because he desperately wants that gun ban.

  • Mock-star||

    hey look! Hihn finally got the point!

    Owning a gun cannot kill anyone. Correct. Thus owning a gun doesnt interfere with the right to life. So why would you think the 2nd amendment, which protects the unalienable right to own a gun, interferes with the right to life?... Remember shooting someone is illegal and murder laws are constitutuional, and we all agree on that.

  • Mock-star||

    Congrats Hihn! You finally got it. Now that you admit that the 2nd amendment and the right to life are not in conflict, you can join the other 91% that keep rejecting you and press back against those who wish to restrict the second, despite no one being harmed by it! Do try to not be such a dick though.

  • Mock-star||

    "1) OWNING A GUN CANNOT KILL ANYONE ... UNLESS YOU AIM AND FIRE IT! (gasp)"

    Do you disagree with this statement?

  • Mock-star||

    If you do, feel free to make that one single cite that I asked for.

  • Mock-star||

    So you cant make a cite then? Duly noted.

    I graciously accept your defeat. Now you can stop with the "interfering rights" angle.

  • Red Rocks White Privilege||

    Dumbfuck Hihnsano continues to think his false dichotomy is an argument because he desperately wants that gun ban.

  • Nardz||

    Dumbass Hihn shows up to preach his State supremacist views, as usual.
    I'm thankful for the writing style, as it alerts me to keep scrolling without reading the poor attempts at thought that follow.
    Hihn + words = 0

  • Crusty Juggler||

    ^ BULLY

  • Nardz||

    ^waaaaah!

  • Nardz||

    Damn It!
    You tricked me, crusty!

  • Nardz||

    Hihn,
    The words you type are an electron-assault on people's eyes and brains, thus it is you who has violated the non-aggression principle. Further, you're a liar who lies about the assaults you commit by accusing others of bullying...
    Directions - Hihn = Themistocles

  • Nardz||

    0 - internet = Hihn

  • Sevo||

    "Dumbass Hihn"
    Correct.

  • sharmota4zeb||

    His dad is from the UK. He spells everything wrong. Cut the poor son of an immigrant some slack, you racist.

  • lulz farmer||

    What do the demographics of the respective countries look like. I bet a breakdown will be far more enlightening to the numbers and how they pan out. Just like with how Sweden became the rape capital of the northern hemisphere.

  • MichaeI Hihn||

    Morals are a complex argument, Michael. I would have to ask, in this moral code you describe, who gets to define a thing as "good": those to whom good is being done, or those doing such things they see as good?

  • sharmota4zeb||

    Some say it's wrong for "unelected judges" to "invent" rights. which they've been doing for over 1000 years

    Yes, but what about the Reform Anglos who are dedicated to pluralistic English common law? Do they have the right to engage in civil disobedience against the orthodox English common law monopoly the way the Women of the Wall fight for pluralism?

  • Ben_||

    Next you'll be forcing Muslims or blacks to register with the police when they live or work in a neighborhood. You will claim it's for safety and you'll ask how anyone could oppose such a measure. You will call the civil rights opposition immoral for protecting innocents from you.

  • MichaeI Hihn||

    Politicians, Michael? You would have politicians be the arbiters of morality? I mean, what ho tradition and all, but forgive me a moment's doubt that this plan ends well.

    But it's crackers o slip a rozzer, the dropsy in snide.

    Good advice.

  • MichaeI Hihn||

    Read it again! Wait! I'll read it to you


    Why would you presume the fault lies in my stupidity rather than misunderstanding? I mean, besides the obvious bit where it's satisfying to imagine people only disagree because they are stupid, evil, or crazy.

    It's not only possible but I'd posit it's even plausible that stupidity isn't common 'round these parts, and yet misunderstandings are.

    the Constitution you DEFY.


    You say this as if it's some shocking thing, and now my job is to be defensive, when really I find the Constitution exactly as relevant as do the legal and political systems. Frankly, my friend, the Constitution has either authorized such government as we have or been powerless to prevent it. It's poetry, written by humans and ignored by humans when convenient to humans.

    Anything else?


    Yes. Want to see which one of us the market picks as the intelligent Hihn?

  • MichaeI Hihn||

    You do get to question my intelligence over mere disagreement, and resort to scorn and incivility - you not only get to, I can't stop you. What you do not get is a free lunch. They don't exist.

    "Everyone else" isn't the only problem here, Michael. If the only way I can get through to you is raw, naked market competition - then game on, my lad. *cracks knuckles* I'm fair with words and logic, I rather like my odds.

    I'd much rather get through to you via fair play, civility, talking to you as one man to another. If'n I can actually manage to haul the rest of these knuckle-draggers with me into having rational, normal, interesting conversations with you, all the better. The point is that I'm getting through, one way or the other.

    And besides, this little philosophical diversion isn't even all that interesting. It's just the ethical man vs moral man argument, and MY GOD that is so freshman year Socio class. Admit it, this is rote.

    What do you have that's new? Why are we arguing red herrings? Tell me something fresh. Don't tell me you don't think fresh thoughts, I won't believe it.

  • MichaeI Hihn||

    You get what you give.

    Exactly, Michael. You get what you give.

    Game on, it is. May the odds be ever in your favor.

  • Red Rocks White Privilege||

    I have a SCOTUS decision.

    That you never read.

  • Red Rocks White Privilege||

    Dumbfuck Hihnsano loves pointless slogans when he cites them.

  • sharmota4zeb||

    So ... You would support manditory clitorectomies if they statistically correlated with lower homicide rates?

  • Ben_||

    "And by what right do you deny that?"

    The same right all innocent people have to not be targeted and scapegoated.

    If it's wrong to target innocent Muslims for oppression because of some terror attack, if it's wrong to target innocent Latinos because of MS-13, if it's wrong to target innocent black Americans because of gang violence in Chicago, then it's wrong to target innocent gun owners because of some school shooting.

    Innocent people are innocent. People like you who would target innocents are evil.

    We don't give in to Klan members lynching innocents. We won't be giving in to your hateful plans against innocents either.

  • Ben_||

    Innocents harmed no one. Stop targeting innocent people with your hate.

  • Ben_||

    The innocents you are trying to persecute have taken no one's life.

  • Ben_||

    I'm not saying anything about any laws. I'm saying _you_ want to persecute people who are innocent, people who have hurt no one and intend to hurt no one. You want to send police to the homes of harmless, guiltless people to threaten them. That's evil. Stop being evil.

  • DesigNate||

    First: If the government has a duty to protect life, then abortion should be outlawed. I'm surprised you agree with Ron Paul about something, given your vitriolic hatred of him.

    Second: the mere act of owning a gun in no way threatens another persons life, liberty, or pursuit of happiness. No matter how many times you try to assert otherwise.

    Fuck off, slaver. (Just responding with aggression against noted bully and all around asshole who wants to strip innocent people of their rights.)

  • sharmota4zeb||

    What was the average annual intentional homocide rate in Europe between 1900 and 2000? I look at the long term.

  • Cy||

    There you go ignoring facts for your own argument again. We have the 2nd amendment to prevent things like democide and oppression. He's not even asking for the numbers of people blatantly abused by their governments, he just wants the number of killed.

  • Red Rocks White Privilege||

    Dumbfuck Hihnsano pimping his gun ban again.

  • Red Rocks White Privilege||

    Dumbfuck Hihnsano drunk-posting and sounding twice as stupid.

  • Rev. Arthur Ꮮ. Kirkland||

    Given the weapons in Santa Fe were a revolver and a shotgun, why are you ranting about semi-automatics?

  • Texasmotiv||

    Incorrectly because you apparently can't read.

  • Sevo||

    Wherein Mike again proves he's an ignoramus.
    Mike, that's a link to this thread; seek help.

  • Sevo||

    Mike, you just linked to this thread yet again.
    How much evidence of your imbecility do you think we need?

  • Red Rocks White Privilege||

    None of which Dumbfuck Hihnsano actually understands.

  • Rev. Arthur L. Kirkland||

    Bigoted Right-Wing Mini-Me is back, spewing his inconsequential conservative backwardness while impersonating one of his many betters.

    Welcome back, goober.

  • XM||

    Um, the 2A almost certainly does protect semi automatic guns, if it's in common use, not particularly dangerous, and suitable for self defense.

    Scalia stated that military weapons are not protected by 2A by default, and dangerous and unusual weapons are not protected. That's been the way decades before the rise of school shootings. Not many American citizens own automatic assault rifles like AK-47. Semi automatic AR-15 type long guns have been acceptable as guns suitable for defense for year. You may recall that some Koreans defended their business during the riots using such guns.

    Note that a short barrel shotgun is illegal even though it's not military in nature and can only hold maybe 2 rounds, because it's a more dangerous weapon that can be concealed. A handful that can hold 10 rounds is legal. An AR-15 is essentially a handgun with cosmetic differences.

  • Sevo||

    "Umm, 79 years of judicial precedent desagrees."

    You don't know what a semi-auto firearm is, do you?

  • XM||

    Hihn says AR-15s and hunting rifles were illegal since 1939. Who knew?

  • Sevo||

    And that M1911 I shot in (gotta think...), '56?
    Hihn + Feinstein = Zero (or something like that).
    But Hihn does rate a link:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9x_FzCWl2nc&t=261s

  • XM||

    The 94 assault weapon ban was never challenged on 2A ground, and had virtually no effect on violent crime. That because (as Sullum noted on this site) it banned guns based on cosmetic features. And most gun crimes are committed by handguns. Other semi auto long guns were still being sold.

    In the Heller case, Scalia opined that common guns used for self defense was protected by the 2A. Whether there was no "semi automatic guns" in the 1700s is a moot point. He specified that "militia" was referring to a body of men capable of military service (not a paramilitary unit), and the 2A allowed common guns used in their homes to be used for that purpose. That allowance carries to modern times, even as gun technology and fire rate improved.

    Scalia also said dangerous and uncommon weapons that might be more suitable for warfare was not protected by 2A. That's it. You took that as "see the 2A isn't absolute, we can ban all kinds of guns". And yet, there examples of business owners using long guns and shotguns to defend their homes and businesses, as recently as the BLM riots. An semi auto AR-15 is not purely a weapon of war and is not much different than a handgun, aside from cosmetic features.

    If the government can't ban handguns, then it (arguably) cannot ban long guns with similar features. The SC is punting on this issue, but if you're libertarian, then the position is clear. But you aren't one, so what does it matter?

  • Red Rocks White Privilege||

    Dumbfuck Hihnsano thinks he's getting that gun ban.

  • Red Rocks White Privilege||

    Dumbfuck Hihnsano thinks only single-shot muzzle loading black powder rifles are Constitutionally protected.

  • sharmota4zeb||

    So... I am allowed to own a cannon?

  • Red Rocks White Privilege||

    Where the fuck do you think the militia got the cannons that the British spiked at Concord, Dumbfuck Hihnsano? Santa Claus?

  • Red Rocks White Privilege||

    Dumbfuck Hihnsano thinks that makes a difference.

  • Red Rocks White Privilege||

    Dumbfuck Hihnsano confirms that M-16s and their civilian equivalent, being in common use by the militia, are protected under the Constitution.

  • Red Rocks White Privilege||

    Dumbfuck Hihnsano continues to think his false dichotomy is an argument because he desperately wants that gun ban.

  • ace_m82||

    Hihn defends Nazis, because they were elected (and therefore represented "the will of the people"):

    www.reason.com/blog/2018/01/17.....nt_7100331

    "Don't like it? EMIGRATE."

    "See .. government DEFENDS rights."

    www.reason.com/blog/2018/02/21.....nt_7150853

    As the Nazis were elected, they didn't violate rights. Also, the Jews were free to leave!

    Me: Were the Jews in Germany in the 1940s free to leave?
    Hihn: ANOTHER MASSIVE FUCKUP!!! Of course they could,,.,.and many did. YOU THINK HITLER WANTED THEM TO STAY!!

    So, tell us again, Hihn, how those Jews in Auschwitz were "free to leave"? Those walls with the barbed wire and the guards with the machine guns, those were to prevent others from attacking those Jews, huh?

    Hihn legitimately thinks "rights" are subject to the will of the majority (or plurality). And, if this is anything like the other times I've brought it up, Hihn will now come forward to defend the Nazis and their "rights" and "freedom"...

    Continued...

  • ace_m82||

    Hihn also knows that defensive firearm uses are over 2 million per year according to the CDC's own studies:

    www.reason.com/blog/2018/04/20.....t-plenty-o

    So, the only answer is that Hihn doesn't care about violent crime, only about governmental power. Now why would that be?

    The only rational answer I can give you is this:

    www.reason.com/archives/2014/0.....-and-proud

    There were 262 million murders of UNARMED people by governments in the 20th century.

    You see, he has to disarm us in order to kill us. He worships the State, and the elections by a small minority (the plurality that votes for the winner, out of the minority that vote). And nothing, NOTHING is allowed to stand in its way. Not you, not me, and certainly not the peasants who think they can own guns to defend themselves!

    He worships the State. If you don't worship the State, he wants to be able to kill you. There is nothing else that makes sense*.

    *OK, asking Hihn to make sense is quite ridiculous, I know. But, if he is anything other than insane, this must be his plan. So, he's either insane, or attempting mass murder. You choose.

    Facts:

    Hihn defends Nazis because they didn't violate "rights" (as he sees them).
    Hihn wants to take your guns away even though that will cause more violent crime.
    Hihn knows government often mass murders UNARMED civilians but still wants to disarm you.

  • Sevo||

    "Facts:
    Hihn defends Nazis because they didn't violate "rights" (as he sees them).
    Hihn wants to take your guns away even though that will cause more violent crime.
    Hihn knows government often mass murders UNARMED civilians but still wants to disarm you."

    This is all true. Hihn (or whoever posts here by that handle) is neither intelligent, nor consistent. I'd like to be sympathetic, but he(?) really is just a fucking imbecile.
    I know the sock posting asHihn in the blue handle somehow tries to offer solace for the idiot "Hihn", but I'm not sure why,

  • Sevo||

    OH!!!!!!! OH!!!!!!!!!
    Fucking idiot *proves* I'm a psycho by linking a page where he calls me a psycho!!!!!!!!!!
    Really impressive for an imbecile, Mike.

  • Sevo||

    Oh, boy!!! Mike calls me a psycho again and then links to "Hmm. We're having trouble finding that site" to prove it!!!!
    That's impressive for a 'tard.

  • Red Rocks White Privilege||

    Dumbfuck Hihnsano having another meltdown because he's a worthless little bitch.

  • Sevo||

    "Thanks for telling me. THIS is where you are PROVEN full of shit -- on your words that I cited"

    Oh boy!!!
    Mike posted a link where he calls me a psycho! Mike thanks that proves I'm a psycho!
    Mike is a fucking ignoramus (laughs and laughs)!!!!

  • Mock-star||

    I think some common sense Hihn control is in order.

  • Red Rocks White Privilege||

    Dumbfuck Hihnsano thinks his false dichotomy is an argument, thinks "the number is the conflict" like an ignoramus.

    Dumbfuck Hihnsano's IQ = Zero

  • Red Rocks White Privilege||

    Dumbfuck Hihnsano continues to think his false dichotomy is an argument because he desperately wants that gun ban.

  • DesigNate||

    I'm surprised it took you two hours to copy and paste your retarded fucking drivel.

    Also, it's really fucked up that you're dragging Mr. Hihn's name through the mud like this.

  • Mock-star||

    You ran a state libertarian party.
    91% of Americans reject the Libertarian label.

    ever think that these things may be related?

  • Mock-star||

    Well, I havent alienated every single person on an internet message board by being a tremendous flaming douche to everyone. I have that.

  • Red Rocks White Privilege||

    (Dumbfuck Hihnsano is always a drama queen bitch.)

  • Mock-star||

    Hihn, in his own words, says that he alienates 91% of Americans!!

    Links to this page, like a retard.

  • Red Rocks White Privilege||

    Dumbfuck Hihnsano thinks his false dichotomy is an argumen, thinks "the number is the conflict" because he's a drooling ignoramus.

    Dumbfuck Hihnsano's IQ = Zero

  • Red Rocks White Privilege||

    Dumbfuck Hihnsano continues to think his false dichotomy is an argument because he desperately wants that gun ban.

  • Trainer||

    There is an easy libertarian answer - educational freedom. Requiring by law that a whole class of people be locked up daily for twelve years of their lives so they can be indoctrinated by the government is about as anti- libertarian as it comes and we shouldn't be surprised that this is the consequence.

  • Trainer||

    Not sure why this showed up so many times...

  • loveconstitution1789||

    Reason spends about $.01 on website stability.

  • Rev. Arthur L. Kirkland||

    Your distaste for education is noted, and disdained.

    Carry on, clingers.

  • Trainer||

    You've got it wrong. My disdain is for government schooling which is the opposite of education. I would love to see all children well educated and compulsory ed laws are getting in the way of that.

  • Sevo||

    Rev. Arthur L. Kirkland|5.19.18 @ 3:24PM|#
    "Your distaste for education is noted, and disdained."

    Your lack of reading comprehension is noted and laughed at.
    Carry on, asshole.

  • Rev. Arthur L. Kirkland||

    Do you guys wonder why society rejects the anti-government rants of disaffected right-wing cranks, or do you possess some self-awareness and understand that you have lost the culture war?

  • Sevo||

    Rev. Arthur L. Kirkland|5.20.18 @ 2:08PM|#
    "Do you guys wonder why society rejects the anti-government rants of disaffected right-wing cranks, or do you possess some self-awareness and understand that you have lost the culture war?"

    Do you understand that being right does not always mean being popular, or are you just some fucking lefty asshole?

  • DJK||

    He's a disingenuous poster who comes in, makes unsupported claims, calls people names, and then disappears. The very definition of a troll. He's been doing this for years on Volokh and unfortunately migrated here when that blog came over to Reason from the Washington Post.

  • MarkLastname||

    I guess you think anyone who opposes forced marriages has a distaste for matrimony.

    The inability of you leftists to distinguish between not liking something and not wanting to force people to do it at gunpoint ought to be classified as a mental illness.

  • DJK||

    Yet another incredibly disingenuous response from the Good Reverend. Where did Trainer call for no education? He is arguing that a particular organization (one that has a vested interest in teaching only certain sides of issues) should not have a monopoly power on education. What are you scared of, Reverend? That people might not buy your ideas if they're not force-fed down their throats starting at the point in their lives when they're most impressionable?

  • Trainer||

    I've been thinking about this today and I realized the general answer is- we make our country safer by upholding ALL basic freedoms instead of trying force one freedom into an oppressive environment because that will never work.

  • Red Rocks White Privilege||

    Dumbfuck Hihnsano remains too stupid to explain why the right to keep and bear arms and the right to life are in conflict.

  • Mock-star||

    exactly this. If he'd show how they were in conflict, I would agree with him. But he cant, probably because they arent. Sure, he can show how murdering someone conflicts with the Right to Life, but Im fairly certain that murder is illegal and murder-bans enjoy wide spread support among the left, right, and everyone else in between.

  • Red Rocks White Privilege||

    Dumbfuck Hihnsano thinks his false dichotomy is an argument.

    Dumbfuck Hihnsano's IQ = Zero

  • Red Rocks White Privilege||

    Dumbfuck Hihnsano continues to think his false dichotomy is an argument because he desperately wants that gun ban.

  • Mock-star||

    Plus he's a psycho who has *BY HIS OWN WORDS* alienated 91% of all Americans.

    I can see why he does this. Its kinda fun.

  • Trainer||

    There is an easy libertarian answer - educational freedom. Requiring by law that a whole class of people be locked up daily for twelve years of their lives so they can be indoctrinated by the government is about as anti- libertarian as it comes and we shouldn't be surprised that this is the consequence.

  • SIV||

  • lap83||

    holy squirrels

  • AlmightyJB||

    Monitored security cameras might have helped spot a student wearing a trenchcoat in Texas in May. Might not help in winter, but there may be other profiling details to look for. Remington 870 not known for concealablity.

  • No Longer Amused||

    Stop turning our kids into a bunch of drugged up losers would be a good first step.

  • Rev. Arthur L. Kirkland||

    Is another meeting of Libertarians For Drug Warriors about to begin?

  • Vernon Depner||

    With student discipline prohibited, public schools couldn't function without drugging boys.

  • Vernon Depner||

    Not directly. They pressure parents to ask so-called doctors for the drugs. The school officials, doctors, and pharmaceutical companies work as a team to accomplish the drugging.

  • Vernon Depner||

    (rather than presenting an argument)

  • taker||

    So Liz refuses to take money from the NRA. Like that was ever gonna happen.

    But I would be interested in a list of who she is *willing* to take money from.

  • Crusty Juggler||

    But I would be interested in a list of who she is *willing* to take money from.

    Casino developers?

  • Crusty Juggler||

    Tom Steyer?

  • Benitacanova||

    Here's a possible solution:

    Since most shooters are narcissistic suicide cases, offer the possibility of killing yourself live on TV, in the spectacular way of your choice. That way you get the fame you crave and the sweet release of death. And no collateral damage to taint your rep in posterity.

  • Trainer||

    Won't work. They get their jollies from dying knowing that they've killed as many people as possible and destroyed the people closest to them.

  • StackOfCoins||

    Incels are usually the perpetrators of these shootings.

    Therefore, Congress should mandate that incels get laid. No incels; no shooters.

  • EscherEnigma||

    Legalize prostitution, create a "medicare" for it, such that everyone gets a voucher every couple of months, redeemable at any prostitute that accepts them...

    I don't think it would work, but it'd be interesting to watch anyway.

  • Ben_||

    There's one thing that all school shootings have in common: schools. Fix schools and you fix the problem.

    But too many people have tried too many things and never fixed schools. So the prudent thing to do would be to shut down the system entirely and let free people create something new.

  • Vernon Depner||

    A less drastic solution would be to repeal compulsory attendance laws. How many of these students shooters simply didn't want to be there in the first place, and wouldn't have shot anyone if they hadn't been forced to attend? I would guess most.

  • Ben_||

    That would be a start. You'd still have schools in poor neighborhoods where students get more opportunities to be victims than to be scholars.

  • TWW||

    According to the Washington Post: "Since Columbine, 214,000 children at 216 schools have experienced gun violence during school hours." Assuming these figures are correct, they certainly beg the question but not the one WAPO suggests.

    To blame guns for the violence is to blame the 'delivery device'. If we could just ban all guns, the problem would go away. Well, yes. If you could effectively ban all guns (doubtful), the problem of gun violence would go away. But does anyone really believe that gun violence is the real problem? Really, does anyone really believe that?

    London has the strictest gun laws in the world. Almost no one has access to a gun, either the good guys or the bad guys. Yet, just last month London passed NYC in the number of homicides committed. The vast majority of these murders were committed with knives with an assorted strangulation here and there. The delivery devices changed but the result is the same. I call this the substitution theory.

    And let's not forget the Santa Fe planted IED's similar to the bombs used in the Boston Marathon attack.

    To blame senseless tragedies like Santa Fe on guns is not only lazy it's dangerous. It's dangerous because it anesthetizes us from thinking and rationally discussing the real problems: Why are so many of our children killing each other? I will be willing to support stricter gun laws when someone answers that question.

  • MichaeI Hihn||

    +1 Guns aren't the weapon, they're just a tool. We are the weapon.

  • DJK||

    Okay. Let's go with that. Columbine was 1999. So that amounts to about 10,000 students per year. There are 50 million students in the public school system at any given time. So that's 0.2 "gun violence experiences" per 1,000 students every year. If we assume that "gun violence experience" means gun victimization (which is not at all evident), that rate is 5 times lower than the national rate. 216 schools is 10 per year over that 20 year period. There are 100,000 public schools in the U.S. So any given school has a 1 in 10,000 chance of being victimized in a given year. These are incredibly low incidence rates. And this is for the broadest possible stats the media can think of ("gun violence experiences"). Actual mass killings are significantly more rare. This is media sensationalizing at its worst.

  • Homple||

    First, most libertarians are slow to restrict constitutionally protected rights to own and bear arms, especially since it's only been relatively recently (2008) that the Supreme Court has fully recognized an individual right to keep and bear arms...

    Most libertarians are slow to restrict constitutionally protected rights, and the right to self defense especially because the Supreme Court is sort of cool with the concepts.

    "Most" are "slow to restrict". Squishy enough for you?

    Jaysus wept.

  • Brandon Lyon||

    A revolver is not a "semiautomatic" pistol. I expect that kind of firearm ignorance from CNN and FOX, not you Reason.

  • Harvard||

    I'll take a stab. Privatization of education. Back in the 60's government education took the advice of their own "experts" and decided consolidation was the thing to do. Bigger schools, concentrating more students into one location. Entire districts were dissolved, merged, and molded to this design. Ostensibly it was to close small, ill equipped schools that teachers avoided, and cut plant costs with fewer buildings. Too many kids to assimilate. Bigger class rooms makes teaching second to maintaining control.
    I can envision privateers recognizing this. Selling points could include class size and building security. In addition they can refuse to serve the frequent truant, class disrupter, and those that are present only because the law requires it. Smaller schools with smaller class rooms allows teachers to recognize those with emotional and anti social predilections.
    So where does the Dylan Roofs of the world go? Nowhere. Privatization doesn't have to mean the end of the government school. Like the city hospital that is required to serve any/everyone regardless their ability to pay, the government school is now, and with privatization, required to seat every applicant, even those who have no intention of learning. But the private school is under no obligation to serve any student, unless discriminating based on color, race, religion or queerness.
    Private enterprise. There's hardly a problem that it won't cure, or at least make much, much better.

  • JFree||

    I don't think privatization of education is remotely a good option. It's nonsense on stilts. You yourself are admitting that it is only a way of instituting 'education' for some - and workhouses/prison for others.

    BUT - complete decentralization of education - right back to the individual school board and getting rid of school district consolidation. That could work. Because it does get to your issue of smaller schools with smaller classrooms and much more involvement by neighbors/parents/teachers.

    We used to have 130,000 school 'governance entities' in this country. Basically every school had its own independent school board (except for the South and New England which were always 'district'-based and imposed their shit on the rest of us). Which also meant nearly every adult at some point or another had to get involved on a volunteer basis in managing the school. Themselves - not abdicating the responsibility to others.

    We now have 15,000 school governance entities. All district-based run by full-time 'professionals' who don't give a shit. And after 40 or so years of this - there is now no one in a school system who even remembers what it was like when each school had to run itself and WAS therefore responsive.

  • JFree||

    As an aside - the reason school districts were created and individual school boards eliminated was because of suburbs. A whole bunch of schools had to be built new and individual school boards were not a very good way of dealing with a slew of new school construction bonds which could only be issued at the state or county level.

    But while that may have been a legitimate need in the 1940's/1950's, it really doesn't apply today. And even where it does, there's a ton of ways that one could separate the issues of capital/construction/financing v operations/administration/curriculum.

  • MarkLastname||

    Education for some, workhouses for others is what we already have with the public system.

    Moreover you assume (falsely) that just because the government doesn't provide something, it will only be available to some. I'm fact most goods or services available to all are provided privately

  • Mike Gates||

    I have a couple of suggestions:

    1. Stop prescribing SSRI drugs willy-nilly
    2. Stop the "war on terror".

    When the President has a private kill list he can use to drone anyone without trial, that sets an example for the rest of us.

    Sitting around and fighting about guns and gun control is a red-herring. It kind-of reminds me an alcoholic home: No one wants to talk about Mommy or Daddy's drinking, but it's the real reason the kids are acting up.

    "Do as I say, not as I do" isn't an effective leadership strategy, although that seems lost on everyone in DC.

  • Vernon Depner||

    Public schools can't function without drugging boys.

  • Vernon Depner||

    (a common side effect of stroke)

  • Vernon Depner||

    Of course, most Americans today would look at that headline and think, "What's the problem with shredding the Constitution?"

  • KoRnFeD||

    Hmm...to stop school shootings...stop going to school. That's about what it's going to take. You can take away the guns in a perfect world, but then you will have to deal with the bomb's this kid made, vehicles, bats, clubs, rocks, even hands and feet. Then there are those disparaging evil words. All along ignoring Human nature.

  • Trainer||

    As long as there is no educational freedom, kids must go to school. We need to end compulsory school laws to end school shootings.

  • SIV||

    Good luck getting the cosmos to breathe a word of opposition to compulsory education.

  • Trainer||

    Getting the cosmos to agree with me is not my goal. My goal is to reach individuals with the truth and who will make a choice to ignore them so that they can raise their children in freedom. Because of people who have spoken up and taken a stand in the past, I was able to unschool my kids without going to jail.

  • Flinch||

    Sadly, you understand todays liberal mind too well. If the stats become bad enough, they will come up with a new line of bull, maybe "life skill centers", in order to get at a clean sheet of paper and sweep old stats away from view so that "school" stats begin a downward averaging trend purely on a time basis and it begins to look like union tools know what they are doing. Political hacks have a knack for selecting a band aid when presented with a stab wound it seems to me.

  • I'm Not Sure||

    "Elizabeth Warren is the first U.S. senator to pledge never to take money from the NRA"

    Meh. Get back to me when you pledge to not take money from anyone who gives money to the NRA.

  • Flinch||

    I wonder if that includes some of capitol hill security, who may have enjoyed some NRA training or education in the past. Perhaps she can resign in protest, as I doubt congress will agree to do away with the security that offends her preciousness.

  • Eidde||

    To paraphrase John, do we want the cops kicking down the doors of law-abiding citizens for exercising their constitutional rights, because some 17 year old with who-knows-what issues went and killed some of his classmates?

    It's displaced aggression, at best.

  • Len Bias||

    Nick, what a naive question. The real question is "what can be done to shred the Constitution without stopping school shootings?"

  • Flinch||

    Sadly, that's what calls between Cuomo and Schumer are likely all about at the end of the day.

  • Tony||

    What a fun thought experiment.

    If stopping school shootings requires "shredding the constitution," then obviously someone should go get a fucking paper shredder. What a terrible piece of shit constitution if it requires school shootings.

  • Sevo||

    Tony|5.19.18 @ 11:10PM|#
    "What a fun thought experiment.
    If stopping school shootings requires "shredding the constitution," then obviously someone should go get a fucking paper shredder. What a terrible piece of shit constitution if it requires school shootings."

    I happen to be reading "Red Famine: Stalin's War on Ukraine", Anne Applebaum.
    Of course an unlettered lefty ignoramus like Tony would have no interest in what happens if a government, as the monopolist of coercion, has no (even) notional limit on its power.
    Here's what happens, you slimy piece of shit:
    "The Holodomor (Ukrainian: Голодомо́р)[a] was a man-made famine in Soviet Ukraine in 1932 and 1933 that killed an officially estimated 7 million to 10 million people[11]."
    Go ahead, tear it up. I hope you're first in line, and I'm sorry your mom didn't have that abortion; the world would be better off.

  • Tony||

    Unlike you I have no emotional attachments to old ideologies. At least we know that one failed so we don't have to try it again.

  • MarkLastname||

    Ah, the old "if an idea is recent it must be correct" line of reasoning. Ever convincing.

  • DJK||

    Uh huh. Can you cite the rates at which people are killed in mass shootings in your favored European nations? They're on par with the U.S. rate. Strict gun control does not stop these types of shootings. Those intent on getting prohibited items will do so. Thankfully, mass shootings are incredibly rare regardless of gun control laws.

  • Red Rocks White Privilege||

    Dumbfuck Hihnsano still can't figure out how the right to keep and bear arms and the right to life are in conflict, pimps his gun bans.

  • Red Rocks White Privilege||

    Dumbfuck Hihnsano continues to think his false dichotomy is an argument because he desperately wants that gun ban.

  • MarkLastname||

    So, if the constitution doesn't allow the state to take any measure necessary to stop a homicide, tear it up?

    The word for that is totalitarianism. Perhaps you can't accept that allowing people freedom means occasionally people will do dangerous things, or if you accept it and believe it is worth sacrificing any freedom for the slightest increase in safety, I don't know what to tell you; check yourself into a max security prison I guess.

  • The Metonymy||

    "What Can Be Done To Stop School Shootings Without Shredding the Constitution?"

    Ban public schools?

  • Flinch||

    Tax teachers unions for the extra security costs incurred by their presence.

  • The Metonymy||

    The NEA will always lobby for fully automatic federal subsidies. They are terrorists.

  • Doug Huffman||

    volunteer grandfathers and parents with doxastic comittment skin in the game willing to die for their children, not interested in a career of going home safely at the end of shift.

  • sjl2112||

    ^ This.

    Problems are: it's too obvious, employs no public servants requiring tax dollars/lucrative pensions and pays no homage to the God of the State. Individual and voluntary collective defense is the responsibility of a free People.

  • Flinch||

    I can't stand another instance of Cuomo popping out of the woodwork to prove he's and imbecile. But the short answer to todays question is: choke points. No, not the kind that restrict breathing, but restrict access to a school to one or two points [that are manned/somebody behind a desk] and allow it to be defended with limited resources. NYC has them by default: in building upwards [and usually being pinned lotline to lotline, they don't have open campuses where perps can enter or exit it 360 degree fashion as they please. Your typical NYC school has one main entrance, a locked or restricted service entrance and maybe an extra side entrance that can be opened during drop off/pickup hours and is manned during those times.
    We don't want schools to look like prisons, but there should be an intimidation factor to a would be perp: he ought to worry about how to get in and out. My city is lucky enough to have not had an incident yet, and I underscore yet. The bozos just opened a freshly rebuilt high school this past year: full open campus, same as before, as if Columbine never happened. But, they did come up with an enhanced communication ploy in the form of an alarm that notifies police and administrators in 7 seconds. Love the teachers, but it's time to knock some heads at local school boards and jettison room temperature IQ administrators. A communications plan is not a security feature.

  • gordo53||

    We already know how to protect schools. They've been doing it in the inner city schools for years. At a minimum, you need the following: All first floor glass doors and windows need forced entry glass so they can't be broken out by a shooter. All outside doors need to be locked 24/7 and alarmed. All classroom doors should be locked when class is in session. Security cameras should monitor every entrance, hallway as well as the perimeter of the building(s). The doors through which students, staff and visitors enter should have metal detectors. There should be at least two armed guards in every school. One stationed at the main entrance and one to monitor the electronic security center (cameras et al) and also provide backup. Do this and you will keep weapons and thus shooters out of your school. And for those of you who think there are no weapons in your unprotected school, drug dealers never go anywhere without their weapon of choice. There is no shortage of drugs and dealers in suburban schools. It's way past time to wise up and start protecting our kids.

  • Rockabilly||

    I have a weapon to protect my loved ones and myself

  • Cy||

    Abolish public schools and the taxes that are justified by them.

    Eliminate all gun free zones.

    Allow any volunteers approved by the school's supervisory body to walk the grounds during school hours. Whether or not they're armed is their choice, as it should be.

    Bring back voluntary firearms training and competition for youth.

    Make it illegal to permanently/regularly prescribe any psychedelic medication to minors.

    Get rid of the 'zero tolerance' in regards to violence at school. Someone was in the right and someone was in the wrong. Indoctrinating children to not handle situations themselves, take the abuse and then appeal to authority is a horrible practice.

    Eliminate truancy laws. If someone doesn't want to be packed into a government run, created and indoctrinated facility, they shouldn't have to. Especially if they just need a day off, they're growing and in most cases going through puberty, give the kids a break.

    Allow teachers to defend themselves and assert authority on school grounds. It's disgusting to see adults allow children to be violent or disruptive towards them and their pupils and not immediately correct the situation. These shooters, in every single case, didn't respect their teachers or pupils. If we can fix that, this crap will stop.

  • Cy||

    Guns have never been the problem. Futilely attempting to remove them from our society will not stop the shootings and it only wastes everyone's time discussing the symptoms instead of cause. Directing the narrative towards guns is just a bullshit tactic for those who refuse to look in the mirror to address the real problems.

  • Red Rocks White Privilege||

    Dumbfuck Hihnsano pimping his gun bans again.

  • Red Rocks White Privilege||

    Dumbfuck Hihnsano hates private gun ownership. (lol)

  • Red Rocks White Privilege||

    Dumbfuck Hihnsano continues to think his false dichotomy is an argument because he desperately wants that gun ban.

  • UnrepentantCurmudgeon||

    Hihn still does not understand what "unalienable" means. Until he learns basic English I suggest everyone just ignore him altogether

  • Red Rocks White Privilege||

    Dumbfuck Hihnsano having another meltdown, still can't figure out how the right to keep and bear arms and the right to life are in conflict.

  • Red Rocks White Privilege||

    Dumbfuck Hihnsano continues to think his false dichotomy is an argument because he desperately wants that gun ban.

  • Mock-star||

    "****WHAT IS YOUR NUMBER?"

    Mine is 91%. As in I am one of the 91% of Americans who reject you, as you stated in your own words.

  • Red Rocks White Privilege||

    Dumbfuck Hihnsano pushing his idiocy about the right to bear arms and the right to life being in conflict again.

  • Gilbert Martin||

    That's because he's stupid enough to believe that there is a such a thing as affirmative rights and duties.

  • Red Rocks White Privilege||

    Dumbfuck Hihnsano still can't figure it out.

  • Red Rocks White Privilege||

    Dumbfuck Hihnsano continues to think his false dichotomy is an argument because he desperately wants that gun ban.

  • SamHell||

    Why does no one ever talk about the one thing all of these high school shooters have in common? They hate school, the people there, and they hate being forced to go! Here's a solution that will provide results: Stop forcing them into high school concentration camps, make it easy to get credits at home over a computer instead!

  • Cy||

    That's an excellent point. I wonder if technology will quietly solve the school shootings. We already easily have the capability to remotely 'teach' kids age 11+. It's most likely going to be the future of our education 'system.'

  • gordo53||

    Computer based education is available today. The education associations (unions) have lobbied Congress against any such "distance education" and so far have been quite successful in keeping it at bay.

  • SamHell||

    Sounds like we need to start giving the teachers unions the NRA treatment. Tell them they have blood on their hands, that their greed is getting children killed and that they are complicit in murder.
    Honestly if the government can't guarantee your childs safety while in their custody then what right do they have requiring them to go unarmed to possible slaughter houses?

  • Red Rocks White Privilege||

    Dumbfuck Hihnsano knows about batshit crazy because he sees it all the time. It's called a mirror.

  • Red Rocks White Privilege||

    Dumbfuck Hihnsano continues to think his false dichotomy is an argument because he desperately wants that gun ban.

  • EscherEnigma||

    Why does no one ever talk about the one thing all of these high school shooters have in common?
    Fatherlessness and poverty? Folks do talk about that. The problem is that they're issues that are very difficult for government to solve.

  • Rich||

    Former Education Secretary Arne Duncan pushed a radical idea on Twitter: Parents should pull their children out of school until elected officials pass stricter gun control laws.

    "This is brilliant, and tragically necessary," Duncan tweeted. "What if no children went to school until gun laws changed to keep them safe? My family is all in if we can do this at scale. Parents, will you please join us?"

    "What if no private sector work were done until gun laws changed? My family is all in if we can do this at scale."

    "What if no taxes were paid until gun laws changed? My family is all in if we can do this at scale."

    "What if no laws were obeyed until gun laws changed? My family is all in if we can do this at scale."

    ...

  • lap83||

    "What if no laws were obeyed until gun laws changed?" My family is all in if we can do this at scale"

    I'm not sure what is more alarming: the fact that they think ignoring laws proves how effective laws are. Or the implication that, in order to make that stupid point, their family is ready to turn into....a violent gang?

    Let's all ignore the laws about murder to show how effective gun laws would be! Yeah!

  • lap83||

    OK I misread your quote as theirs'....still my first point stands....they don't realize that showing how easy it is to break laws is a bad argument to make for getting more laws

  • Red Rocks White Privilege||

    Talk about a self-own: "Hey normies, pull all your children out of public schools until President BLUMPH and the NRA pass a bunch of bullshit laws we've been chasing for fifty years!"

    I wish the nation's parents would actually follow this advice. Imagine the lulz when white parents start homeschooling their kids in mass numbers while our vibrant urban ghettos and barrios become full-fledged war zones on the scale of the 70s-early 90s.

  • UnrepentantCurmudgeon||

    Black and Hispanic parents home-school too.

  • Red Rocks White Privilege||

    Not nearly to the extent that white parents do. In fact, the numbers are nowhere in the same galaxy. NCES estimates that 83% of homeschooled kids are white.

  • EscherEnigma||

    Yes, that is how strikes work.

  • Joe_JP||

    Various things can be done, some wrong, that won't "shred" the Constitution. Nice screen grab of the senator.

  • JuanQPublic||

    But we simply don't know why the phenomenon of school mass shootings happens, and anyone who claims to know is either wrong or not being honest, because we haven't applied sufficient research into the matter.

  • Sebastian Cremmington||

    In this particular dynamic "more guns" leads to more mass shootings because these people want to die. So two of our greatest warriors were killed at a gun range while armed by a lunatic with a death wish.

    In SF all the news organizations simply refuse to report jumpers from the GG bridge...does that work?

  • JuanQPublic||

    "It's time we strip the NRA of its stranglehold over our children's lives."


    - Elizabeth Warren

    Complete hyperbole, which usually means avoiding something. And there are plenty of us who defend the second amendment who do not support the NRA, at least in its current incarnation, as it operates as little more than a political org designed to mobilize voters across issues, typically of the social conservative variety.

    Warren may be lauded by Democrats as a "change" candidate, but she's demonstrated herself to be a usual shapeshifter politician that repositions based on the prevailing political winds.

  • Jesus Geek||

    Seems obvious to me that without public schools there'd be no more shootings at public schools. No new Constitution shredding gun laws required at all but the problem completely solved.

  • ||

    the point I have been using to point something important out to the "we have to do SOMETHING!!!!!" crowed is if a drunk gets in a car and drives into a crowed of school children. do we blame the car or the driver?. quite a few times this has actually made some of them stop and think. even some "you have a good point". give it a try. it might work.

  • EscherEnigma||

    Where I work, there's concrete waist-high barriers preventing vehicles from getting within ten feet of the building. In most places the barrier is even further out, also keeping the sidewalk from vehicles.

    If such vehicle attacks become common, I expect to see such barriers become much more common place as we build literal walls to make it more difficult for folks to use cars as weapons against pedestrians.

    Which is to say... have no doubt, if cars-as-weapon attacks become common, you'll see reactive changes.

  • I'm Not Sure||

    Is it just me, or does Elizabeth Warren look pissed because she doesn't have a dick to get hard whenever there's a shooting reported?

  • I'm Not Sure||

    Nice comeback. How long have you been working on it?

  • Red Rocks White Privilege||

    Dumbfuck Hihnsano's IQ = Zero

  • ||

    i need my ex back contact DR.UNITY at; Unityspelltemple@gmail.com is the best spell caster online and his result is 100% guarantee.

  • damikesc||

    I'd ask where is the call for prohibition when alcohol kills more people in wrecks in a weekend than any school shooting has ever experienced?

  • Red Rocks White Privilege||

    So is shooting people, Dumbfuck Hihnsano.

  • Mock-star||

    Shooting people actually interferes with the right to life, so it should be and is illegal, outside extenuating circumstances. Keeping and bearing arms does not. An easy concept to understand for the 91% of Americans that Hihn hasnt repulsed.

  • Linda C||

    so is shooting people moron

  • AJ_Liberty||

    We've always had school kids who were bullied, teased, or romantically rejected....and did not reach for dad's gun to settle a score. We're now in post-Columbine thinking where unchecked narcissism fueled by internet preening has incubated a randomized cell of sociopaths and psychopaths that have no clue about right and wrong. How do we distinguish them from your typical awkward teen misfits and outcasts, establish real threats, and try to successfully isolate those threats from weapons? Do we turn schools into prisons with metal detectors, pat downs, and windowless vaults? How does society produce fewer narcissistic sociopaths without sacrificing the rights of some teens to be weird, people to own guns for self defense, and our school's primary mission? If only we could regulate quality parenting and psychiatric well being. Should these guns have been secured from this psychopath? Should his parents have known he was building pressure-cooker bombs and that he thought this was an appropriate response....ever? No law can clean up societal rot....enough.

  • UnrepentantCurmudgeon||

    Family strengths in general and parenting in particular are critical causes, but ones which our society and politicians are poorly prepared (to say the least) to deal with.

  • TxJack 112||

    The real issue is why are our kids no longer able to cope with disappointment and failure since adults know that is just part of life? That is the issue. When you have a school system that tells kids there are no winners and losers until the reach high school when suddenly there are nothing but winners and losers, they are unprepared. I mean winners and losers in terms of you make the football team or you dont make the team. You make A's in your classes or you make Cs. The issue is until they reach high school, "everyone gets a trophy". So kids that do not work hard this they are entitled to the same rewards as those who do and when they don't get them they do not know how to cope. Employers say the most common issue with young employees is they do not understand how to make decisions and risk failure. To them failing is the end of the world and therefore, they have no ambition or initiative because their fear of failure cripples them. Sadly, it is that fear of failure that leads to events like, this one.

  • UnrepentantCurmudgeon||

    There's an obvious disconnect in how Americans tend to approach issues like this. On the one hand we say "guns don't kill people, people kill people". And on the other hand, focus all our "solutions" on gun-control ideas. Plainly, if "people kill people" then fetishizing gun control will only address the surface and not the reality.

    My first question every time a mass-shooting incident occurs is: "tell me about the parents" and "tell me about the family". This aspect of the story always gets underreported. But in this case we know that the shooter had little or no relationship with his mother; the same was true of Dylan Rooff and the Columbine shooters (whose parents did not even know they were stockpiling guns at home).

    Of course the problem with this line of inquiry is that it isn't sexy at the voting booths, and it defies easy answers such as DO SOMETHING!!!!! But what we are seeing here is NOT gun nuts running wild but poorly parented and poorly socialized young people taking it out on society in the most spectacular way possible.

  • I am the 0.000000013%||

    Add to those questions 'tell me about the school'...

  • Naaman Brown||

    "Another week, another school shooting, ...
    As of the May 18 Santa Fe school shooting, there had been two mass shootings in 138 days of 2018.
    Parkland Florida, 17 dead.
    Santa Fe Texas, 10 dead.
    And 2 dead in other school shootings. It is not at all like a Santa Fe every week or even every other week. Exaggerating stats does not help any discussion about fixes.*

    Locally since 1997 we have had school resource officers in the high schools. One engaged an armed man who had entered the school, pulled a gun on the principal and demanded to be shown the fire alarm.

    In 2013, two high school students who were plotting to outdo Columbine were reported by a concerned parent and a mental health specialist. The two admitted their plot at trial.

    This year a recent graduate told his girlfriend he intended to go to the school and shoot it up; he was reported and arrested.

    At one of our walkouts, a major complaint was that while students and staff used swipe cards to gain entry, some doors were being left unsecured for convenience of construction contractors.

    Controlling school access, reporting of threats, acting on threats, and school resource officer presence have all been attacked by gun control advocates who claim the only thing that will work is a code in the federal statutes that Brand ABC Model XYZ scary looking rifle is on a verboten list.

    _______________
    *(While at least five were adults, the total of 29 is used in WaPo's schoolkids killed talking point.)

  • ||

    Your article missed the simple fact that school's that have properly implemented the recommendations of "hardening" have never been shot up. They have a 100% safety record. So your statement that "everything has been done and nothing has worked" (I'm paraphrasing) isn't correct. Hardening has been done and it has worked.

    Liberals hate the idea that a military-style approach is the most effective, but it's true. Important to note that it's a very specific process, it's not just adding a few armed guards and putting up a few fences. Also important to note that it doesn't "militarize" a campus as some protest. Guards carry concealed dressed in plain clothes or snappy casual uniforms.

    This issue forces Americans to ask the question, who's responsible for protecting kids in school? Why not hold the school administrators accountable for protecting the kids they legally required to attend their schools?

  • Eman||

    I think Nick cares more about constitutional integrity than kids lives. David dogg is disappointed.

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