New at Reason
Steve Chapman wonders if there's a strategy to Hillary Clinton's lies.
Comments to "New at Reason":
Yes, we do like shameless liars. And it looks like we have three good ones to choose from.
Elemenope | April 28, 2008, 8:33am | #
When choosing amongst liars I like to pick the one who seems assiduously committed to not being a douche-bag.Muttley | April 28, 2008, 8:37am | #
For the same reason [...] guys like to be told they resemble Greek godsWell, if we're talking about the deformed-but-genial Hephaestus it's not a lie...
You mean a strategy other than "say whatever necessary to get elected"? I thought that was obvious.
First Little Pig | April 28, 2008, 8:38am | #
I am not sure that all that many Hillary supporters actually like Hillary per se. I suspect that the main categories of her backers fall into:90's nostalgics (and relatedly, people who want Bill back in the white house)
women who want a woman in the office (pretty much regardless of who that woman is)
Those who want a change in policy at the top but do not want a "negro" in the White House.
socialized medicine proponents who think that she has a hidden agenda for a much broader change than she is campaigning on.
Episiarch | April 28, 2008, 8:40am | #
A lot of us like our politicians to lie and fudge—the more flagrantly, the better.Uh, no. A lot of people actually think that politicians and the government can actually "fix" things rather than fucking them up. Like the truck drivers driving around DC today to protest the price of gas. How, exactly, can Congress reduce the price of gas? Other than unbelievable disasters like price controls, they can't.
Politicians lie because people are stupid and they get away with it, not because we like it.
I've always assumed that the lying thing works because there's a good number of voters who will hear the lie and not watch enough news to ever hear the numerous refutations. After all, Clinton consistently leads among people who aren't paying attention.
Other Matt | April 28, 2008, 8:52am | #
It was a vintage Billary performance. Say something false, then deny you said it, while blaming the person who's telling the truth. It may not be convincing, but it's mighty entertaining.Well, THAT's where joe gets it from.
Hugo Chavez in a pant-suit,
Isn't it "pants suit"? Not that it matters much, either one of the Dems could be accused of the Hugo C, Obama's just more substantive comment free about it, Hillary's just more up front about it. McCain at least has a record of bipartisanship, though the subjects of the record are less than motivating.
I still maintain a write in for Ron Paul, or perhaps Drew Carey, is the better course of action.
Part of the atraction to liars may be wanting to be told that your life situation is not your fault, that things that you like that are detrimental to the economy are actually good for the economy, and a short memory for how many things that have been promised to them have actually come.
The Clintons have been audacious and monumental liars since they entered politics in Arkansas. They're habitual liars for one primary reason - the MSM historically have been their water carriers for them, letting them get away with it. Hillary's occasional rough patches in this campaign have been due to the simple reality that many of them have fallen in love with their opponent.
First Little Pig | April 28, 2008, 9:11am | #
Enough about pantsuits people. I asked my wife this question: "Will women ever have a uniform like the men's suit that is not open to discussion, derision, debate and ridicule?" Her answer: Not in our lifetime.What other option does Hillary have than a pantsuit? An 80's era jacket with skirt combo? A 50's - 60's era dress? How do you expect her to dress for campaign stops. Bluejeans and a blouse?
The whole making-fun-of-the-pantsuit is so patriarchy
Episiarch | April 28, 2008, 9:13am | #
I think First Little Pig had a humorectomy.Unless that was satire, to which I say well done.
Mad Max | April 28, 2008, 9:24am | #
"Carl Bernstein, who made his name uncovering President Nixon's monumental dishonesty, judged her guilty of 'Jesuitical lying, evasion, and ... stonewalling.'"Jesuitical? Why did Carl Bernstein have to dig up a discredited anti-Catholic trope to bach Hillary? In England alone (not to speak of more civilized countries like Japan), Jesuits like St. Edmund Campion were hanged, drawn and quartered for trying to defend the Church. Some Jesuits said that it was morally permissible to use misdirection and deception to agents of schismatical, heretical governments in order to save oneself and one's assocites from being murdered for the "crime" of adhering to the Catholic Church - can that be compared to Hillary Clinton saying whatever the voters want to hear in order to get elected?
If Carl Bernstein wanted an metaphor of deceptiveness to describe Hillary, he didn't have to smear the Catholic Church - he could have simply invoked the example of the Communist Party and its easygoing attitude to the truth - after all, both of Bernstein's parents were at the very least com-symps:
http://www.amazon.com/Loyalties-Carl-Bernstein/dp/0333521358
Elemenope | April 28, 2008, 9:39am | #
Oh come now, Mad Max. I've heard more than enough Dominican priests make cracks about Jesuitical casuistry to believe that much of the reputation is richly deserved.Hugh Akston | April 28, 2008, 9:49am | #
How, exactly, can Congress reduce the price of gas?Three words: federal gas taxes
First Little Pig | April 28, 2008, 9:50am | #
Episiarch,Yeah well, I actually started writing it in all seriousness but as I finished my rant I realized how silly it was. Then I added the patriarchy line and I felt it came out more "kidding on the square".
But I think you have a point: this election in particular is draining the funny out of life. I have gone from libertarian to anarchist over it. Minarchy will no longer save us.
Episiarch | April 28, 2008, 9:55am | #
Three words: federal gas taxesAnd then they increase taxes elsewhere to pay for road maintenance. It's shell game, which is why McCain proposed it.
FrBunny | April 28, 2008, 9:56am | #
"Three words: federal gas taxes"Four more: The market will compensate.
Neil | April 28, 2008, 10:03am | #
Anyone see Rev. Wright this morning? Hes really killing Obama.Seriously, he said that white and black people have different brains LOL!
Guy Montag | April 28, 2008, 10:03am | #
How, exactly, can Congress reduce the price of gas?Three words: federal gas taxes
ANWR and other locations, removing EPA restrictions on refineries, removing ethanol subsidies, eliminating adult porn restrictions*.
*Okay, that last one is a "while you are at it" dream.
Bingo | April 28, 2008, 10:07am | #
"Will women ever have a uniform like the men's suit that is not open to discussion, derision, debate and ridicule?"The fact that a woman's method of dress can initiate "discussion, derision, debate and ridicule" speaks volumes about its power. Worrying about a patriarchy instead of leveraging publicity is so "patriarchy."
scape | April 28, 2008, 10:08am | #
Billary: We now consecrate the bond of obedience. Assume the position.(Billary smacks the voters with a whopping lie)
Voters: Thank you, sir. May I have another?
Episiarch | April 28, 2008, 10:09am | #
I have gone from libertarian to anarchist over it. Minarchy will no longer save us.Welcome. I realized that many years ago.
SugarFree | April 28, 2008, 11:21am | #
Worrying about a patriarchy instead of leveraging publicity is so "patriarchy."Patriarchy's greatest trick was fooling feminism into believing that it exists.
SugarFree | April 28, 2008, 11:30am | #
"I haven't worn a dress or skirt in years, because you know what they mean to my size 28 self? Chafing. Period. In order to wear a dress comfortably I have to have some kind of shorts or split slip on underneath it, which has the effect of restricting air flow, not enhancing it. So in addition to all the complaints listed above, equating dresses/skirts with beauty is annoying to me as a plus-size woman."Episiarch | April 28, 2008, 11:53am | #
Because I love too much.You love fat chicks?
Q: What's the same about a fat chick and a moped?
A; They're both fun to ride until your friends see you on one.
J Golden Rockwell | April 28, 2008, 11:58am | #
SugarFree quoted: "I haven't worn a dress or skirt in years, because you know what they mean to my size 28 self?"A place to hide an udder and three extra stomachs . . ?
SIZE 28??? America truly is the "Land of Plenty!"
SugarFree | April 28, 2008, 12:02pm | #
No, no. I love the board too much to let you guys miss out of stuff like that.Ancedote: A friend of mine not only told a fat chick the moped joke, but then nicknamed her "Moped" and got maybe a dozen people in on it.
Ancedote 2: In a totally unrelated (but unsurprising) incident I saw him get punched in the neck at the ACE bar in NYC when he drunkenly demanded that this rockabilly greaser kid sing him an Elvis song ("In The Ghetto" IIRC.).
I'm listening to Monday in London right now on their myspace. This is some disappointing Foo Fighters meets Our Lady Peace Nu-Metal/pop punkery. Get the hell out of here with this bull shit.
Episiarch | April 28, 2008, 12:23pm | #
A friend of mine not only told a fat chick the moped joke, but then nicknamed her "Moped" and got maybe a dozen people in on it.You and your friends' casual cruelty amuses me.
Ayn_Randian | April 28, 2008, 12:32pm | #
Episiarch, I have to applaud you for bringing the wisdom of ATHF to these boards.well-played, sir.
*golf claps*
SugarFree | April 28, 2008, 12:35pm | #
You and your friends' casual cruelty amuses me.We do what we can, but I will admit to being too polite to call her "Moped."
A_R, I do it all the time, but I don't think a lot of H&R regulars watch ATHF. Because I almost never get a reaction.
Cherubzilla | April 28, 2008, 12:48pm | #
Hey, I actually DO have the body of a Greek God....problem is, it's Cupid.Chris Potter | April 28, 2008, 1:24pm | #
It's funny that there's an ad for Norwich University's Master of Arts in Diplomacy program attached to this article about lying.Douglas Gray | April 28, 2008, 2:59pm | #
Of the three, Clinton, McCain and Obama, all have been prevaricating at times. I agree with Mr. Champman that Hillary is probably #1, with McCain #2, and Obama prevaricating the least.Looking at their actual votes, rather than analyzing their mouth noises, one would be hard-pressed to find a reason to vote for any of the Three Senators.
economist | April 28, 2008, 3:33pm | #
Mad Max,Are you questioning Mr. Bernstein's patriotism? You are! How dare you question his patriotism! How dare you question Barack Obama and Hillary Clinton's patriotism, too! You all just wrap yourselves in the flag to avoid tough questions!
zoltan | April 28, 2008, 4:52pm | #
Obama seems to lie the least out of the three candidates because he says the least even though he speaks the most.jtuf | April 28, 2008, 9:25pm | #
Clinton's campaign reminds me of Nixon's debate with Kennedy. In Nixon's formative years, live debates were the norm. He followed the habits of live debaters, speaking to the moderator instead of the camera. Kennedy knew how to debate in the age of TV.Now with the web, Clinton is tripped up by old habits. During most of their political lives, the Clintons did not have do worry about fact checkers. Catching them in a lie would require a trip to the library, too much effort for anyone outside the "right wing conspiracy". Today, a quick web search reveals a Clinton lie in minutes.
I saw a pic of Hillary bending over in her pants-suit, and I'd have to give her credit, not a bad ass for a 60 something