In his latest reason.tv episode, Drew Carey celebrates "The Beckham Factor" in immigration—and makes the case for open borders.
Click on the image below to watch.
Now Playing at Reason.tv: Drew Carey Defends Open Borders
Comments to "Now Playing at Reason.tv: Drew Carey Defends Open Borders":
I'd gladly trade 1000 Lou Dobbses for another Brazilian striker like Luciano Emilio.
Timon19 | April 1, 2008, 8:37am | #
Shit, man, at this point, I'd take Stern John back even as old as he is by now. Of course when you're as starved for goals and success after 3 straight failures to reach the playoffs, that's what you resort to.As much as I enjoy watching Alejandro Moreno work his ass off for virtually no reward (fucking referees...), he ain't gonna carry the scoring load. BTW, is it unlibertarian to support a Venezuelan striker?
That's OK. We hate you, and Drew has too much money and fun being part-owner and photog/superfan to care about you.
Maybe he can join Frank DeFord at the Old Sportswriters with Rotting Flesh Table.
Rhywun | April 1, 2008, 10:08am | #
I hate baseball, football and basketball, and I'll be sure to point that out on every baseball, football and basketball thread from now on.mk | April 1, 2008, 10:49am | #
is it unlibertarian to support a Venezuelan striker?If he is playing in America, then I would say that it counts as "cosmotarian".
Geeez, Drew Carey, what an out of touch elitist boob. The Beckham's are worth millions. Huge difference. Importing millions of dirt poor people only grows government and hurts the taxpayers as they see their schools, hospitals and other social services decline. I guess the Reason Foundation's big corporate donors are demanding their labor subsidies.
Rhywun | April 1, 2008, 11:21am | #
Importing millions of dirt poor people only grows government and hurts the taxpayersYeah! Forcing people to come here against their will when they're perfectly happy to remain dirt poor where they are now is just... wrong!
WilliamR | April 1, 2008, 11:49am | #
Who's forcing anyone? The welfare state isn't going anywhere anytime soon. People like Drew Carey live in gated communities, don't use public hospitals, or send their kids to public schools. All this mass unskilled immigration has done is lower wages for working class folks and hurt farm productivity. Hospitals are going bankrupt and schools are being destroyed by this massive wave of poor unskilled people. At the turn of the 20th century the USA didn't have a welfare state. Immigrants either fished our cut bait. 30-40 percent of them returned home. Now what we have is the Hospitality industry, Construction, and Big Agriculture demanding more cheap labor. Corporate welfare.California has thousands of non violent people locked up in their jails. Offer early parole to those willing to go out and pick crops. The taxpayers are already paying for their room and board.
If Hotels and Resorts need more labor they should do the old fashioned thing and offer more money. Markets have a wonderful way of self correcting.
As for construction, home building. Huge subsidized industry.
shminky | April 1, 2008, 12:28pm | #
In the brave new world of globalization, everyone will love soccer.You might want to try calling it something other than "open borders".
Tom | April 1, 2008, 1:24pm | #
In the brave new world of globalization, everyone will love soccer.Actually, it's the brave new world where Americans realize there's more to sports than hitting things hard.
nobody special | April 1, 2008, 1:27pm | #
I read somewhere that small town cops would give vagrants bus tickets to New York or L.A. to get rid of them and send them someplace with social services.I hear Sweden has a great social policy, why can't we give all these illegals tickets to Sweden? Even at first class it's a cost savings for the US. Since they won't have proper documents, they will either be turned loose in Sweden or just stay in the Stockholm airport like that Arab dude in France.
Either way it's a win win!!
Once the expensive social net in the US is frayed a bit then we can open the borders again.
nobody special | April 1, 2008, 1:29pm | #
Actually, it's the brave new world where Americans realize there's more to sports than hitting things hard.I don't think to can send a ball down a whole soccer field without hitting it hard.
Pig Mannix | April 1, 2008, 1:31pm | #
Actually, it's the brave new world where Americans realize there's more to sports than hitting things hard.Ha! I was on the organizing committee for the '94 World Cup. Trust me on this one - you have a better chance of convincing Americans to eat Vegemite than developing an appreciattion for soccer...
Tom | April 1, 2008, 1:48pm | #
Trust me on this one - you have a better chance of convincing Americans to eat Vegemite than developing an appreciattion for soccer...That's odd, considering that Americans already have developed quite an appreciation for soccer -- and one that's continuously growing. Things are well beyond where they were in 1974, they're well beyond where they were in 1994, and in 2014 they'll be well beyond where they are now.
Just because you don't see it at the top of "SportsCenter" every night doesn't mean it's not happening on a very real, very core level. Will it ever reach the consistent heights of football and baseball? Of course not -- not in our lifetimes, at least. But with World Cup television ratings already outdoing the World Series, and MLS average attendance now higher than the NHL (and closing in on the NBA), it's safe to say the sport continues to quietly make inroads and cement its place in the American culture.
shminky | April 1, 2008, 1:51pm | #
As Frank DeFord has explained, Americans like games which involve a high degree of precision and accomplishment, where not so much randomness is involved. I mean, in soccer they cheer when a team makes a close run at a goal and misses. This would be like American football fans cheering when a would-be touchdown pass is overthrown by ten feet.shminky | April 1, 2008, 1:53pm | #
I should add that, although I don't like soccer, I wouldn't mind seeing American teams do better internationally, so we could say, "See, see kicked your asses, and we don't even care about the sport!"First Little Pig | April 1, 2008, 1:57pm | #
That grandkid of Flemish speakers did not convince me that he actually spoke English.Study after study have shown that immigrants provide a net benefit to our economy. I live in New Mexico and my own anecdotal experience convinces me that these studies are correct.
Tom | April 1, 2008, 1:59pm | #
As Frank DeFord has explained,No, you mean, "As Frank DeFord has hypothesized."
This notion that "Americans" are somehow particularly drawn to "precision and accomplishment" in ways that other human beings aren't -- that's merely after-the-fact speculation in a quest to make sense of something. It sounds good (and it may very well be correct), but it's not something that Frank DeFord "explained." It's something he guessed about.
I just like sports with speed, violence, and explosiveness. Most sports popular here have at least one of these three, soccer lacks all three.
First Little Pig | April 1, 2008, 2:10pm | #
My hypothesis of why Soccer is not very popular:Primarily it has to do with a lack of metrics. In baseball and football there are constant metrics: balls, strikes, runs ... 1st and 10, 3rd and 1, field goals, touchdowns, total yards, etc etc. Basketball has lots of scoring as well, of course.
Soccer has very very few metrics: hence the need to shout goooooaaaaaalll for a minute or two every time one happens.
First Little Pig | April 1, 2008, 2:12pm | #
FWIW: I never really "got" soccer until I went to a number of matches in South America (Argentina, Brazil and Colombia).... It's the cultural connection... the crowd, the excitement.In Argentina they sing this song that goes something like this: "If you are not on your feet you are an Englishman" It's a riot.
Tom | April 1, 2008, 2:16pm | #
Soccer has very very few metrics: hence the need to shout goooooaaaaaalll for a minute or two every time one happens.You're right about the lack of metrics (and the resulting statistics) in soccer. I would posit, though, that Americans are drawn to baseball, football, etc., not because they like stats; they're drawn to stats because they like baseball and football. The statistics are nice complements to the whole thing; they're not the meat of it. (The popularity of fantasy games notwithstanding.)
As for "goooooaaaal": That's a Mexican thing. It's not a soccer thing.
John | April 1, 2008, 2:17pm | #
Soccer is always tommorows big thing.Has anyone seen this? If this is true, it is a big deal
http://www.nextenergynews.com/news1/next-energy-news2.13s.html
Cesar | April 1, 2008, 2:17pm | #
Soccer isn't fast or explosive? Eh???Not really, given the fact that most of the game consists of holding and passing the ball, with the final score being 1-0.
Again, add a shot clock. It worked for basketball.
Cesar | April 1, 2008, 2:21pm | #
John I hope its true but it didn't say how difficult the oil is to drill and/or refine. People like Middle Eastern crude because its very easy to do both with it.If its very "sweet" crude though, and they start drilling, we could end up with 99 cents/gallon gas again.
WilliamR | April 1, 2008, 2:22pm | #
Well I'll be damned. They bumped this one back to the top because they can't get anyone to defend the shameless. Importing people that have a claim on my tax dollars. Corporate welfare.I wonder how Europeans feel about open borders with the Muslim world?? Free movement of people. People do have consequences. The free flow of goods and services is one thing. Goods and services are used up and vanish. People create more people and they just might be hostile to the native culture.
mk | April 1, 2008, 2:23pm | #
I wouldn't mind seeing American teams do better internationally,DC United is playing Mexico's Pachuca tonight. Tomorrow night Houston Dynamo are playing Costa Rica's Deportivo Saprissa. You should wish them luck, they will need it. That having been said, American teams are quite capable of competing internationally. Imagine what they could do if they had more support.
One of the cool things about soccer is that it really is global. Devotees of American football or baseball will never really get to see that.
the crowd, the excitement.
RFK during a DC United game is one of the few environments where I have seen different races and cultures truly mix. Songs are sung in English and Spanish. It's a lot of fun.
Tom | April 1, 2008, 2:25pm | #
Soccer is always tommorows big thing.Was soccer hyped to ludicrous degrees by self-interested investors and promoters in the 1970s? Absolutely.
Has soccer since embedded itself into the U.S. landscape far more deeply than it was then? Yep. In the '70s, soccer was indeed "tomorrow's big thing." In the '00s, soccer is one of the big things. It may not be part of your day-to-day purview, but it certainly is for many, many of your countrymen.
John | April 1, 2008, 2:26pm | #
MK,The US did manage to get to the World Cup quarter finals in 2002. They beat Mexico in the round of 16 on the way. For a country whose beth athletes are concentraited in three sports, that is pretty good. Also, beating Mexico was just perfect. It was a national day of mourning in Mexico and among Mexicans in the US and most Americans had no clue the game even happened.
William R. Latin Americans are not particularly hostile to "American culture".
John | April 1, 2008, 2:28pm | #
"Has soccer since embedded itself into the U.S. landscape far more deeply than it was then? Yep. In the '70s, soccer was indeed "tomorrow's big thing." In the '00s, soccer is one of the big things. It may not be part of your day-to-day purview, but it certainly is for many, many of your countrymen."Lots of people play soccer. But even more people play softball and that is not much of a professional spectator's sport. Soccer is a big deal in that millions of people enjoy playing the game. But the US will never be the best in the world at it and it will never command the kind of revenue and spectator attendence that football and basketball and baseball do, which I don't see as that big of a deal.
#1 Hockey Fan | April 1, 2008, 2:37pm | #
Soccer Players = Lawn Faries...shecky | April 1, 2008, 2:41pm | #
WilliamR is April Foolin' us.Tom | April 1, 2008, 2:48pm | #
John: Yes, lots of people play soccer, but my point is about its growth as a spectator sport.The World Cup wasn't drawing higher U.S. television ratings than the World Series two decades ago, as it does now. ESPN wasn't paying MLS to broadcast its games one decade ago, as it does now. Broadcast rights to the Euro and Champions League competitions weren't ferociously bid on, as they are now. There wasn't a soccer specialty channel on U.S. cable systems six years ago; today there are two.
As I said, it won't reach the consistent heights of football and baseball, not in our lifetimes. But it has come a long, long way. And it's much bigger here than many people -- even many diehard sports fans -- realize.
That's all...
Timon19 | April 1, 2008, 2:58pm | #
Jesus Christ...I could have read a Dan Lebetard column from the summer of '06 or '02 and seen the exact same bullshit I see coming from some of you guys.For those who think there are "no stats" in soccer, you might want to take up your claim with the people at Opta Sports Data, who provide a baseball-type range of stats to their customers (usually media).
Timon19 | April 1, 2008, 3:06pm | #
Also,FIFA has rated the US (national team) as high as #4 back in March '06 before retooling their formula. Now they're in a more reasonable range of the mid-high 20's. A big part of the reason for this is that there is no major competition for CONCACAF teams while the European teams just got done with ratings-boosting Euro qualifying and will have the European Championship proper this summer.
CONCACAF will only have started their World Cup qualifying campaign, so there's only friendlies to gain points in the system, and they are weighted very low (rightly so).
Even at the 20's, this is still in the top 10-15% of all teams in the world. For a country that only puts in a fraction of the effort of nearly everyone else.
mk | April 1, 2008, 3:08pm | #
John,Individual teams and national teams compete in different international league championships. As well as the US men's national team have done, American teams have yet to reach a similar level of success on the team level.
In 1998 DC United won the Concacaf Champion's cup. LA Galaxy won it as well in 2000. It's been a while though.
Timon19 | April 1, 2008, 3:15pm | #
Cesar,# of 1-0 or 0-0 resultes in the opening weekend of MLS: 0 out of 6 possible
# of 1-0 or 0-0 results in this week's schedule of English Premiership matches (out of only 10 for some reason): 3
God forbid there be passing, by the way. That whole Bird/Magic/Showtime era sucked ass. Too much good passing.
Mike Laursen | April 1, 2008, 3:19pm | #
I guess the Reason Foundation's big corporate donors are demanding their labor subsidies.California has thousands of non violent people locked up in their jails. Offer early parole to those willing to go out and pick crops. The taxpayers are already paying for their room and board.
Just want to get this straight. You have great concern for illegal immigrants who are being exploited for cheap labor, but you're fine with thousands of people who have been locked up for non-violent crimes to be exploited for cheap labor.
Furthermore, you are very concerned about illegal immigrants who are being exploited for cheap labor, but you have a beef with reason for suggesting that it would be better if they were legal immigrants.
Does that cover it?
Timon19 | April 1, 2008, 3:19pm | #
I just like sports with speed, violence, and explosiveness. Most sports popular here have at least one of these three, soccer lacks all three.Tell Arsenal's Eduardo there's no violence.
Or Brian McBride, who has shattered (yes, completely shattered) BOTH his orbitals in his career, leading to facial reconstruction. If you peeled his skin away, you might get flashbacks of Terminator. There ain't much bone left.
Frank DeFord's "observation" is a lovely post hoc, ergo propter hoc bit of idiocy.
Cesar | April 1, 2008, 3:26pm | #
Timon-Does basketball sans a shot clock sound like an exciting time to you?
If they didn't allow you to hold onto the ball forever in soccer it would be more interesting.
Timon19 | April 1, 2008, 3:35pm | #
Basketball and soccer aren't even remotely comparable in that sense. Their natures are too different.Holding on to the ball forever, most teams realize, doesn't score you goals. This is why teams who masturbate with the ball too much often get smacked around by good counterattacking sides (like Mexico vs. the US for the past decade).
Holding on to the ball demands a certain level of tactics and collective skill to succeed. It also demands a certain different level of tactics and skill to break down. Some teams can do this. Others cannot.
Sometimes, you get two teams that like to hold the ball forever. You usually get a shitty game out of it.
More often, you get two teams with different styles whose strengths and weaknesses play off one another. These are the more interesting games. Usually, you'll see one side or the other adjust their tactics noticeably to address these things, and those changes often lead to chances and goals.
mk | April 1, 2008, 3:37pm | #
John,Wait until an American team beats a Mexican team in their own stadium in one of these competitions. Then you will see mourning, wailing and the rending of garments.
It could happen tonight. Cross your fingers.
Not that I have anything against Pachuca. They are excellent. If I had my wish, the first Mexican team to go down in such a fashion would be Chivas de Guadalajara.
Timon19 | April 1, 2008, 3:42pm | #
mk,Given what I've read about Saprissa's recent fixture in the CCC, I'm pretty sure we're more likely to see a first with the Pachuca-DC fixture than Houston-Saprissa.
The US just lost their chance of winning a qualifier in the Azteca this time around. The FMF sacked Hugo Sanchez yesterday. Hugo was our best opportunity. Now they're going to hire someone with an iota of sense and coaching ability.
Tom | April 1, 2008, 3:45pm | #
Frank DeFord's "observation" is a lovely post hoc, ergo propter hoc bit of idiocy.Yeah, that's what I was getting at, minus the Latin.
My favorites, though, are the ones that try to assess it all within a political context, along the lines of "Soccer is socialist in design, whereas 'American sports' (eye roll) reflect liberty and capitalism and individualism." Beyond the sheer silliness of analyzing sports from that perspective, it has always struck me as fundamentally inaccurate anyway: It isn't soccer, after all, where the orders are handed down from on high by a central planner (coach), where players sacrifice their individualism for the group cause, etc.
(And outside the playing field itself, it isn't the big-time soccer leagues that enact forced egalitarianism ["parity"] via salary caps and other market manipulations.)
Daniel Reeves | April 1, 2008, 3:49pm | #
Did reason become more authoritarian or are trolls simply swarming the comments?The problem is the welfare state, folks, not illegal immigration. There's no reason why we should yell at poor recently-arrived Mexicans anymore than a "poor" long-time American (I use quotes because most Americans who are considered poor are not genuinely so). Hell, Mexicans come from real poverty, and they seem to have a stronger work ethic. They certainly contribute more to society than "poor" Americans. Maybe immigration wouldn't be such a "problem" if we shrunk the welfare state, much like how you shouldn't put full blame on the man who beat you up when you taunt him continuously.
Timon19 | April 1, 2008, 3:57pm | #
Tom,I've long thought that the NFL was the most communist organization on Earth outside the political realm, and that football itself was by far the most top-down, individualism-crushing, controlled sport by its very nature.
John | April 1, 2008, 3:59pm | #
"My favorites, though, are the ones that try to assess it all within a political context, along the lines of "Soccer is socialist in design, whereas 'American sports' (eye roll) reflect liberty and capitalism and individualism." Beyond the sheer silliness of analyzing sports from that perspective, it has always struck me as fundamentally inaccurate anyway:"I have always heard it the other way around that Soccer is the democratic sport of the world and Americans only like fascist sports. I think a lot of what has hurt soccer in this country is the attitude of some of its supporters that the US should support it because everyone else does. Americans like to be different from the rest of the world. There has always been a "watch this it is good for you" thread running through soccer promotion.
WilliamR | April 1, 2008, 4:07pm | #
Mike Laursen | April 1, 2008, 3:19pm | #How is it exploiting prisoners of you offer them early parole if they go out and pick the crops. If they're in the slammer for drugs I don't agree with that, but at the same time if you offer them a chance to get out early it's a good deal all the way around. Pay them the same rate the big Farms are giving the illegals. Probably a pretty decent wage and they'll have some walking around money once they get out.
I've been skiing in Utah for the past 30yrs. Have had a house there for 11. Used to be college kids would take a semester off clean rooms, work in restaurants etc etc for a season ski pass and and get paid pretty darn good at the same time. While there are some kids still doing that, it's most illegals now.
Employers have to pay all the labor taxes on college kids.
The Hospitality industry is among the worst when it comes to corporate welfare.
Tom | April 1, 2008, 4:12pm | #
I think a lot of what has hurt soccer in this country is the attitude of some of its supporters that the US should support it because everyone else does.Strawman.
No, I take that back. I suppose it's technically plausible that at some point in your life, somewhere, in some situation, you've encountered "some supporters" pushing the idea that the United States should support soccer because everyone else does.
But I haven't encountered those folks in my years of following the game, and I've never heard anyone make an argument remotely like it. In fact, I've never heard anyone -- outside of self-interested investors and promoters -- insisting that other people become soccer fans, for any reason.
I've known people who try to get their friends interested because they think it's fun, the same way friends like to turn each other on to bands or books or movies they've discovered. But I've never heard anyone proselytize about it for these overarching reasons completely unrelated to what actually happens on a field for 90 minutes, like "the rest of the world loves it" or "it's good for you."
These are strawmen that have been invented and circulated by U.S. sportswriters over the years, most commonly trotted out every four years when the World Cup rolls along and they have to write something about a sport where their normal expertise fails them.
jtuf | April 1, 2008, 4:13pm | #
Ideally, we should let all peaceful people immigrate. If an epidemic breaks out (like the global flu epidemic arround WWI) we could set temporary restrictions. Tripling immigration quotas across the board would be a good first step.Timon19 | April 1, 2008, 4:13pm | #
John,You might be surprised to hear that a huge number of soccer supporters hate that crap, too.
I don't think the US should support it "because everyone else does". I simply think that there's lots of room for it at the table, given the huge sports market that already exists, and given the massive numbers who grow up with the sport already (but who have only recently had something resembling a top professional league to admire and aspire to).
After all, the sport has been around on these shores continuously longer than any other sport save baseball, and even then it's close as to date of origin.
I certainly wouldn't want to browbeat anyone into supporting it because Europeans go wild for it. On the other hand, there's a massively irrational set of arguments that seeks to dismiss the sport out of hand, some of which we've seen here. Most soccer supporters don't understand the mentality that forms that set of thought processes, and some become overzealous proselytizers as a result.
The ones who make such arguments annoy the majority of soccer-lovers as much as they annoy the rest of everyone else. Their tactics are counter-productive.
Orange Line Express | April 1, 2008, 4:15pm | #
Carey is a puffball pseudo-celeb who wouldn't last ten minutes if I debated him about this. I'd discuss things like this and, no matter how many "jokes" he cracked no one would trust anything he said after that.Heh! Tom, I've heard and seen some of the types that get decried here. But, as you note (by your claim of having never witnessed it yourself), they aren't nearly a majority, and they are largely perpetuated by the media.
Timon19 | April 1, 2008, 4:19pm | #
Tom,You'll find a number at bigsoccer.com.
Of course that's a self-selected audience, where you're very likely to get some real assholes with no perspective.
Mike Laursen | April 1, 2008, 4:20pm | #
If they are in for non-violent crimes, then maybe they shouldn't be in there in the first place. Using them as cheap laborers encourages a trend toward locking up more non-violent people, when we want a trend towards fewer.But looks like you are narrowing down your definition of what you mean by a a non-violent prisoner, so maybe we don't really disagree if your idea of the types of non-violent crimes that should result in imprisonment agree with mine. I'm not sure.
From my experience with working with college kids and working with illegal immigrants, the college kids are flakey and the illegal immigrants work like hell. That may be a big factor in their replacing the college kids, not just purely a matter of how much the employer has to pay.
Cesar | April 1, 2008, 4:21pm | #
The real question is, why doesn't the rest of the world love American football?The Carribean nations and east Asia loves baseball, and basketball is extremely popular in many countries.
But American football never is.
John | April 1, 2008, 4:22pm | #
Timmon19,I don't dismiss the sport. I lived in Europe for a year and actually enjoyed going out to the English pup in Frankfort and watching the Champions League and then later the European Championships. The night Beckham spit the bit in the shootout against Portugal was one of the more entertaining nights of sports watching I have ever spent.
I don't follow it now that I am back because I just don't have the time and spend too much time watching other sports. I have to admit there is an allure of following the Premier League. It has kind of a cool following and I generally like the bars that carry it. But to do that I would have to give up following other sports. Also, what makes sport interesting for me is caring about outcome. In American sports I have teams that I was basically raised as a fan of. There are not any soccer teams that I feel that strongly about. So I have a hard time getting worked up over that Tottenham Hotspur Arsenel match this weekend the way I do over this weekend's KU UNC basketball game. I think that Americans don't watch soccer for the same reasons I don't; a market already saturated in spectator sports and lack of a serious and historical rooting interest.
Mike Laursen | April 1, 2008, 4:25pm | #
Carey is a puffball pseudo-celeb...Huh? What is "pseudo" about Carey's celebrity? Park yourself in front of your TV right now and start flipping through channels - guaranteed he'll be on one of them.
Timon19 | April 1, 2008, 4:35pm | #
The real question is, why doesn't the rest of the world love American football?Because most other major sporting nations play another (or multiple others) code(s) of football, and have been playing it as a primary form for decades. The Home Nations (England, Scotland, Wales) spread Rugby throughout the Empire, and a healthy chunk of continental Europe, as well as Argentina and one or two other South American nations.
Also because neither principal code (soccer or Rugby) was all that well established in the US at the time of the split. When that split came, both codes were still being played at American universities. The offshoot of Rugby that developed into American football pretty much developed in isolation from everything else, including Rugby itself, due to political, economic and international relations reasons.
There's similar reasoning behind why no-one else loves Aussie Rules football except Aussies.
Timon19 | April 1, 2008, 4:41pm | #
John,I didn't say YOU dismissed the sport.
Anyway, you bring up a good explanation for why it is difficult - the lack of a continuous, visible history at a high level of play, and thus the lack of generations of fans "growing up" with a local team.
There was a time before the World Wars when baseball owners fielded soccer teams to fill the winter dates in their stadiums.
rana | April 1, 2008, 4:42pm | #
"The real question is, why doesn't the rest of the world love American football?"I really enjoy American football but most of my friends (in PR and Vzla.) think it is just too complicated- too many rules.
Tacos mmm... | April 1, 2008, 4:45pm | #
How is it exploiting prisoners of you offer them early parole if they go out and pick the crops. If they're in the slammer for drugs I don't agree with that, but at the same time if you offer them a chance to get out early it's a good deal all the way around.Incarceration SHOULD be difficult and expensive for the state. That discourages locking people up without good reason. If you oppose locking up harmless people, then you should oppose work programs that remove the financial disincentive to lock them up. With your plan, you would see a lot more people who would normally have gotten probation get labor instead.
shecky | April 1, 2008, 5:05pm | #
WilliamR:Illegal (and legal) immigrants get very little welfare benefits. Furthermore, they do pay taxes. Even under the table employees have to pay property taxes and sales taxes.
Of course, if welfare is what's bothering you, why not oppose welfare?
BTW, isn't restricting the labor pool to American laborers welfare... for American laborers? What happens when an American laborer has no fear of losing his job to someone who's willing to provide better performance at lower cost?
In recent history, the market for illegal immigrant labor is probably among the freest markets on the North American continent. Places like Arizona are finding out the hard way what happens when government regulates markets, by restricting supply. Predictably, the workaround proposals are all prescriptions for more government bureaucracy. Central planning will live up to it's reputation.
Incredibly, despite the millions of illegal immigrants in the US, unemployment is still low, and the standard of living higher than ever. The detrimental part of immigration seems difficult to pin down once you look at the numbers.
You're free to hire all the college students you want. Why not let me hire whoever I see fit?
All these points have been aired before. And your logic broken. Are you April Foolin' us?
brotherben | April 1, 2008, 5:07pm | #
I for one prefer australian rules football. The trenchcoat wearing referees are the coolest thing since deep fried pickles.Tom | April 1, 2008, 5:09pm | #
Timon19 --Yeah, I drop into BigSoccer from time to time. I guess one does find all stripes there. But it mostly struck me as internecine fighting more than anything else.
At any rate, I readily concede that U.S. soccer fans can be a defensive bunch. But given that one can't even walk into a thread like this without being immediately greeted by "I hate soccer," it's pretty easy to understand why. It's not that soccer fans give a damn whether everybody else likes soccer; it's that they get tired of idiots with an attack waiting around every corner.
brotherben | April 1, 2008, 5:10pm | #
""What happens when an American laborer has no fear of losing his job to someone who's willing to provide better performance at lower cost? ""Toyota becomes the biggest car maker in the world?
Thomas Paine's Goiter | April 1, 2008, 5:26pm | #
There is nothing more satisfying that working soccer geeks into a lather over the fact that their sport is a small sideshow on par with bull-riding or women's basketball. They go nuts, frothing at the mouth about the world, blah, blah, athleticism, blah blah, beauty, blah blah.Americans don't like the game because soccer players are pussies.
In the end, they are worked up beyond belief and their slow-paced, low-athleticism, unsporting game is still nothing more than a blip on the radar.
Hey fellas, the wind just blew, shouldn't your premier forward be diving to the ground in agony just about now?
Orange Line Special | April 1, 2008, 5:37pm | #
shecky tries to make the incredibly weak economic argument for IllegalImmigration, completely forgetting about all the non-financial costs, such as giving ForeignGovernments PoliticalPower inside the U.S. Or, giving even more power to people like this.BTW, isn't restricting the labor pool to American laborers welfare... for American laborers?
Yeah, you know, my (but not yours apparently) fellow citizens.
What happens when an American laborer has no fear of losing his job to someone who's willing to provide better performance at lower cost?
Gosh, I don't know, the market takes over? What, are you afraid of an actually free 0 not crooked - market now?
In recent history, the market for illegal immigrant labor is probably among the freest markets on the North American continent.
Actually, it's a CorruptMarket that involves CorruptBusinesses basically paying off politicians. And, considering that IllegalImmigration is basically allowed and managed by the FederalGovernment, it would seem to offend "libertarian" sensibilities. Hardly a "free" market.
Thomas Paine's Goiter | April 1, 2008, 5:38pm | #
The greatest two teams in the world meet for the championship of the sport, and THIS is what you get:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m3qpE8WZMt8
Soccer players are pussies. Americans, unless they are pussies themselves, aren't about to watch and cheer for a bunch of diving pussies.
Tom | April 1, 2008, 5:40pm | #
Americans don't like the game because soccer players are pussies.More post hoc stuff. The diving-writhing stuff is a relatively new development in the game. As in, the past 15 years or so. And it's practiced almost entirely by certain Latin players, and Italians. Not only is not part of the game in places like England and Germany (or the United States), it's actively frowned upon and mocked.
Soccer was being not-embraced by U.S. sports fans well before the diving came into the picture.
But go ahead -- keep coming up with new rationalizations about why you think it's just "a blip on the radar," and keep being unaware that the sport is catching on here in a big way.
Timon19 | April 1, 2008, 5:52pm | #
TPG,Seriously, you're gonna find a whole hell of a lot of soccer fans (read: nearly all) who actively hate the practice of diving. We wish to hell it would go away, but as the stakes are raised yet higher and the sole arbiter of the contest remains a human being, you have instances where players try to game the officials.
There are three officials in an NBA game on a lot smaller court with a lot fewer players and flopping has actually INCREASED. Receivers in the NFL and college constantly bitch and moan for interference and the quarterback has been so protected by the rules that it's almost a crime to pressure him.
The diving that occurs in soccer is almost exclusively to attempt to extract a more severe punishment than a simple foul or to generate a foul call where there was none previously. It has nothing to do with the "manliness" of the player. On the other hand, there are quite a few types of tackles that hurt one fucking hell of a lot for a short period of time. At the professional level, it can, indeed, nearly incapacitate someone for a short time. Hell, at the amateur level, where the true hacks reside, it can really jack you up.
In football, those sorts of short-term injuries either get absorbed by the insane amount of armor the players wear or get "cured" by liberal substitution rules (players sit out plays all the damn time). In basketball, you get subbed out for a few minutes. None of that is an option in soccer.
Timon19 | April 1, 2008, 6:01pm | #
TPG,I like tight edits, too. Much of that video, again, had less to do with pussy-ness than it had to do with trying to get a call.
However, there were several in there that were legitimately painful things. Especially the last elbow in the ear. You have no idea what that feels like unless, perhaps, you've played the low post and got your face too close to the center's arm. Even there, there is not the same amount of swing and elevation involved.
Considering that a few of the tackles shown there from distance (so as not to show how actually horrible they were) have been known to break legs, there's also that to consider.
But most of all, you've given us a video featuring Italy, the nation who absolutely, positively dives the most. Way to self-select. They were shameful that entire tournament, and most soccer commentators and fans called them on it. Didn't much help.
Voros McCracken | April 1, 2008, 6:13pm | #
Like Drew I caught the soccer bug late in life, and the constant "soccer sucks/soccer is the next big thing" arguments do bother me.I think a key to enjoying soccer is live soccer. There's such a big difference between watching live and watching on TV.
As for immigration, Drew's preaching to the choir but it's an issue that is unfortunately an extremely tough sell to the voting population. Libertarians have not done a great job making inroads on "tough sell" issues so far.
William R | April 1, 2008, 7:19pm | #
Mike Laursen | April 1, 2008, 4:20pm | #There are dozens of non violent crimes that people are doing time in the slammer for. Still doesn't change the fact that offering them a chance at early parole will work for the best of all concerned.
And who are you kidding. Having a fearful illegal afraid to complain or a college kid you have to pay labor taxes on. Bottom line, it's still corporate welfare for the Hospitality industry.
The Winter Soldier | April 1, 2008, 7:23pm | #
Hey, how can you be AGAINST anything that allows more collagen enhanced, silicone injected, brain dead MILFs into the country? Just saying . . .The Winter Soldier | April 1, 2008, 7:24pm | #
Oh, yeah. His wife is pretty hot, too (lol)Mike Laursen | April 1, 2008, 11:19pm | #
Having a fearful illegal afraid to complain or a college kid you have to pay labor taxes on.First of all, you make many assumptions about what you saw. Yes, some employers hire illegal aliens completely off the books, but it is also common for employers to hire illegal aliens with fake Social Security numbers. In this latter case, the employees are not just paying taxes like any other employee, they are doing so with no hope of getting anything back from Social Security. Furthermore, not every brown-skinned guy you see working in some ski resort kitchen is illegal.
Mike Laursen | April 1, 2008, 11:20pm | #
Forget my second point. If you are so concerned about the exploitation of illegal immigrants, why not favor making them legal immigrants?Mike Laursen | April 1, 2008, 11:25pm | #
Yeah, you know, my (but not yours apparently) fellow citizens.OK, we're bad people because we don't care about our fellow citizens. You're a bad person because you don't care about your fellow human beings. Now that we've established that we're all awful people, where have we gotten.