New at Reason
Michael Moynihan asks if Venezuelan and Russian voters are looking for a great leap backward.
Comments to "New at Reason":
stephen the goldberger | November 30, 2007, 1:08pm | #
ughThat 6 hour workday ought to put a nice big spike in the coffin that is the Venezuelan economy.
J sub D | November 30, 2007, 1:24pm | #
That 6 hour workday ought to put a nice big spike in the coffin that is the Venezuelan economyYou don't understand. The workday doesn't change, you just get paid for 6.
Paul | November 30, 2007, 1:39pm | #
You don't understand. The workday doesn't change, you just get paid for 6.That'll put a nice big spike in the coffin that is the Venezuelan economy.
BakedPenguin | November 30, 2007, 1:53pm | #
I cannot wait for oil prices to go down, depriving these worthless thugs of the cash propping up their rotten economies. Too bad real humans will have to suffer as well.lies | November 30, 2007, 1:56pm | #
It never ceases to amaze me the lengths the US media will go to lie about Venezuela. Comparing a democratically elected executive to Vladimir Putin is a new low. But hey, I guess all those desperately poor brown people can't be blamed because they just aren't smart enough to know that American crony capitalism is good for them.Absolutely zero mention of the indigenous people's councils that would be given more power should this referendum pass. Also zero mention of CIA funding and direction of the opposition. No matter how corrupt and/or powerful Chavez may be, the bottom line remains that a democratically elected strongman is better than a CIA strongman, hands down.
Shannon Love | November 30, 2007, 1:58pm | #
If they choose not to heed the bullying “recommendations” of party heavies, state employees “risk losing their jobs, their accommodation or bonuses”; university students are being threatened with failing grades and expulsion.Why do people never understand that getting any benefit from the state requires surrendering some freedom? Get enough benefits and soon you find you have no freedom left.
Overt authoritarians like Putin and Chavez blatantly coerce people with direct threats of loss of benefits but the same effect can be accomplished by more subtlety even in liberal-democracies. I am continually amazed by people who think of themselves as free when the government effectively controls their access to food, clothing, shelter, medical care, transportation and information. For many, it seems if you just tell them them they can f*ck whomever they please you can toss them straight into the cage and they will thank you for it.
Shannon Love | November 30, 2007, 2:10pm | #
lies,Comparing a democratically elected executive...
Acquiring power by election does not make one a legitimate democratic leader. That only happens when a leader loses an election and steps down.
People, especially desperately poor and unsophisticated people, quite often vote themselves a no frills spared trip to hell, Look at Zimbabwe.
Absolutely zero mention of the indigenous people's councils that would be given more power should this referendum pass.
Ha, ha, ha, ha. Let me tell you something, Anything called "The Peoples " is a fraud. Every authoritarian socialist regime red or black has established "Peoples" organization ostensibly to empower the lower classes. It always ends in oppression and blood shed.
Chavez is indeed a self inflicted injury on the part of the people of Venezuela so I don't think we have any right to intervene directly as we did during the Cold War. When the next oil bust comes all hell will break lose, Chevez will drop his democratic pretensions. and you will be there to explain why all the death and destruction is our fault.
atrevete | November 30, 2007, 2:11pm | #
Lies, what an appropriate name! And wasn't Putin "democratically elected"?Have you ever been to Venezuela, lies?
Mr. Nice Guy | November 30, 2007, 2:13pm | #
"It never ceases to amaze me the lengths the US media will go to lie about Venezuela. Comparing a democratically elected executive to Vladimir Putin is a new low."Lies, Well, Putin was "democratically elected" too wasn't he? These two guys are not the worst that can be done, but they are not the best. The fact that extreme right wingers froth at Chavez does not mean there is something ideal about him for those who may cherish liberty and are willing to tame wealthy interests as well as government when it impinges on it. Chavez has some rightly troubling authoritarian tendencies behind all that power to the people rhetoric.
As far as Russia goes, the Libertopians on this site should remember that they tried moving in a market direction rather strongly in the 1990's and it sucked to the average person, so they find it a hard sell now. Now, of course, the faithful here will start the chanting of "but they did not REALLY try the wonderful market." Interesting how they sound so very much like the Communists who, when faced with empirical failures of their model, chanted "but we did not REALLy try Marxism!" The fact is that under Yeltsin et al, the nation took a strong market turn and it sucked for them. And under Putin things have gotten better economically and Russia has been taken seriously again in foriegn affairs, and all that matters to the Russians. They are not so stupid as to keep choosing something that was not working...Now, I submit they would do better to liberalize slowly and in a way that works for them, and Putin also shows some dangerous leanings, but this is not simply a coup by Putin and his minions...
atrevete | November 30, 2007, 2:14pm | #
And surely, lies, you MUST be opposed to the US returning Aristide to power in Haiti by direct military intervention, i.e. the Marines? Wonder what ever happened to that guy?Mr. Nice Guy | November 30, 2007, 2:18pm | #
"Overt authoritarians like Putin and Chavez blatantly coerce people with direct threats of loss of benefits but the same effect can be accomplished by more subtlety even in liberal-democracies."This strikes me as exactly the kind of hyperventilating that pushes people like lies into people like Chavez's camp. You want "blatant authoritarians?" Look in N. Korea. Putin and Chavez are very problemmatic, but to shade them as authoritarian dictators is hyperbole. Doubt it? Try doing the following, which you can do in Russia or Venezula, in N. Korea:
1. Go visit an opposition party headquarters
2. Go buy an opposition newspaper
3. Get a travel visa
etc.
Mr. Nice Guy | November 30, 2007, 2:20pm | #
I'm not trying to defend Chavez or Putin. They're largely indefensible to me. But the black and white thinking is pretty useless.Shannon Love | November 30, 2007, 2:29pm | #
Mr. Nice Guy,I wasn't comparing Putin et al to North Korea I was pointing out that the basic mechanism of withholding benefits and privileges can be used in all liberal-democracies to control people.
Look at the use of the disposition of public jobs and contracts in the major cities of the northeast during the period circa 1920-1960. An iron triangle of unions, democratic party machines and the mob controlled millions by giving with one hand and taking with the other. Political organization down to the level of block captains meant that individuals who didn't toe the line lost their jobs, houses and sometimes got their legs broke.
Government benefits, even things like targeted tax breaks, come with dangerous strings. The actions of Putin and Chavez merely bring that reality into a sharp focus.
atrevete | November 30, 2007, 2:31pm | #
4. or using a cellphone.Still, Venezuela has more of a history and tradition of democracy than Korea ever had, or Russia for that matter. It is really sad to see the decline of Venezuela in the past nine years.
teh | November 30, 2007, 2:40pm | #
George Bush was elected in an election that in all likelihood was more free and fair than the ones where Chavez or Putin won.Does that make the increased powers that Bush has claimed legitimate? Uh, no.
Juan | November 30, 2007, 2:56pm | #
Again, the means justify the ends to the whackalefties. "Democratically elected" becomes a carte blanche to a lot of them.rana | November 30, 2007, 3:04pm | #
This guy "lies" can't be for real... so I won't even go there.What is distressing is how Chavez claims he's giving power back to the people by establishing Consejos Comunales (community counsils). Do you know HOW these are set up? WHO gets to be on this council? Let me tell you, counsil member are not elected. They are hand-picked by whoever the government favors (as they say here "el que jala mas bolas", that means "whoever kisses more ass").
To give you an idea, it would be your not-so-friendly neighborhood committee deciding everything regarding you and your community. To make matters worse, these "community counsils" are funded by the government (Nope. No chance for corruption here). These counsils decide where and who shall spend the community's money.
Have a pot hole in the street in front of your house? There's a busted street light in front of your building (putting your personal safety at risk)? Better hope the Counsil members like you PERSONALLY and dont think you are against the government.
I have actually seen people get into fist fights over getting into these counsils.
atrevete | November 30, 2007, 3:17pm | #
Yes, these are the "indigenous people's councils" in lies amazing fantasy. Like there are lots of Arawak Indians living out in the Venezuelan countryside living in tipis or something, who just want to have their own "councils".atrevete | November 30, 2007, 3:20pm | #
You mean, you mean, that a council member doesn't even have to be an indigenous person?Well then, rana, I wish you the best, but it sounds like it is already more soviet there than I thought.
rana | November 30, 2007, 3:40pm | #
Marcvs,Thanks. It is not good. It is not horrible either (i.e. like North Korea or Cuba... yet). But Venezuela has certainly headed in the wrong direction. Yesterday's opposition march in Caracas had a strong turnout (far greater than pro-Chavez march today- so it seems)... But it is Caracas- Chavez has great support in smaller cities throughout the country.
Atrevete, if Im not mistaken, Chavez's idea of "community councils" comes from communist Cuba, from his buddy Fidel. I don't think they have too many Taino indians left in Cuba though ;) but there are indigenous indians in the Venezuelan Amazons- however, Im sure they already have set up their tribe leaders.
dbust1 | November 30, 2007, 3:41pm | #
If Chavez is just misunderstood, as the Huffington Post seems to imply. Would the HP be willing to move operations to Caracas?atrevete | November 30, 2007, 3:45pm | #
For the six hour workday, presumably. And the extra half hour of sunshine, great for the people's health.joe | November 30, 2007, 3:57pm | #
Shannon Love,Chavez's predecessor lost the election and stepped down. Are you actually saying that George Bush isn't a democratically elected leader, or did you phrase that poorly?
As for the "election" of Putin, the elections and campaigns in Russia are closer to those in Cuba than to Venezuela. Choreographed frauds in conditions of state violence. As opposed to Venesuela, where every election Hugo Chavez ever won has been certified as free and fair by international election monitoring groups.
I hope the referendum goes goes in flames, but even more important, I hope that Venezuela continues to have free and fair elections. If an election turns out badly, the results can be undone in the next election. But if real elections come to an end, that's the ballgame.
joe | November 30, 2007, 4:03pm | #
The only thing "rigged" about the 1984 elections in Nicaragua were the bombs the contras placed in polling places, in their efforts to prevent people from voting in the election they knew they were going to lose so badly.Neonconservatives never seem to get it through their heads that, honest to God, people don't like foreigners who start wars in their country and support those who fight against them.
rana | November 30, 2007, 4:06pm | #
I dont know joe. You and I will never agree that elections, well make that the last presidential election in Venezuela, was "free and fair". If Putin has taken over many media outlets (Chavez certainly has) and forces government workers to attend pro-government rallies and vote for him at the threat of losing their jobs or pensions (Chavez pretty much openly does this, its no secret), persecutes people who oppose him (Chavez guilty as well- "la lista de Tascon")... I dont know, sounds like they are quite alike.Although Im sure Chavez is far more charismatic than Putin, at least I will give him that.
rana | November 30, 2007, 4:16pm | #
The last presidential election had dead people voting, e.g. a guy who, according to his id number, was 170 years old; had people vote twice with fake ids at different voting centers; had Chavista thugs intimidate and threat opposition voters at rural voting centers; had military police close down 3-lane highways into 1-lane to slow down people to get to voting centers; had voting centers in predominantely opposition areas open late and close early; had many voter's assigned voting centers changed, at the last minute, to another city far away (this was done to people who had voted to revoke Chavez- "la lista de Tascon"); had government workers forced to vote in Chavez's favor at the threat of losing their jobs.Sounds "fair" to you?
joe | November 30, 2007, 4:43pm | #
rana,There are differneces in degree, but also in kind. Putin is assassinating journalists and opposition leaders. What you're describing sounds an awful lot like most cities in America circa 1890 - certainly not ideal, but something that can built on as long as the democratic system stays solid.
Believe me, I'm not under the impression that your country has a model electoral system right now! But there is an open plebescite for constitutional amendments (I wish we had those), top political figures including Chavez allies are advocating for its defeat, and a majority of people tell pollsters they are voting no. None of those things happen in Russia anymore.
Aresen | November 30, 2007, 4:49pm | #
The last presidential election had dead people votingrana, I sympathize with you, but I have to giggle at this point. Many US and Canadian politicians owed their election wins to the "graveyard vote".
Seriously, however, I see both Venezuela and Russia as screwed no matter what happens. As the old joke goes "In the West, when the government is defeated in an election, the people dissolve the government and elect a new one. In Russia, when the government is defeated in an election, the government dissolves the people and elects a new one."
For Venezuela in particular, I can see Chavez using oil wealth to build his popularity and his power. While the oil wealth lasts, he will be relatively benign.
When it runs out - due either to incompetence or a fall in oil prices - he will no longer be able to buy popularity. Then the regime will turn savage.
I realize you probably love your country, but I'd suggest you get out now.
Juan | November 30, 2007, 4:53pm | #
But joe, what's at stake is the very existence of the democratic system.Juan | November 30, 2007, 4:59pm | #
rana, I sympathize with you, but I have to giggle at this point. Many US and Canadian politicians owed their election wins to the "graveyard vote".Yeah, to be fair the "graveyard vote" over here is hardly an invention of Chavizmo either.
But the system is so obviously rigged in favor of the government (even if the voting machines themselves aren't, which is at least debatable)...
J sub D | November 30, 2007, 5:24pm | #
But there is an open plebescite for constitutional amendments (I wish we had those),I don't. Democrcy is wonderful but it is best when damped. You see it in the states that amend their constitution by majority vote. All sorts of bad law get's enshrined that way.
That's my take on it anyway.
atrevete | November 30, 2007, 5:43pm | #
From a Vz. blogspot:"Anyone voting "SI" for the Constitutional Referedum, hold up a bottle of milk".
Mark Bahner | November 30, 2007, 11:50pm | #
It never ceases to amaze me the lengths the US media will go to lie about Venezuela.Yeah, that right-wing National Public Radio is amazing.
Barrie Machin | December 1, 2007, 3:00am | #
This is what you have to worry about we have only 50 years at current rates of US et al consumptionhttp://observer.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,6903,750783,00.html#article_continue
We have to focus not on old patterns of hatred Putin and Chavez are threatened and strengthened by the old way of doing things but we are all in the same boat we had to make big adjustments and we have to stop demonisation it is a genetic throwback.
Check out non-mainstream media like commondreams.org
Barrie Machin | December 1, 2007, 3:04am | #
The date of the Dr. Allende's death on Sept. 11, 1973 this came about through CIA and US interference and ushered in Pinochet thanlks guys. This was Chile's 911 more than 3000 people were killed in Pinochet's rule http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/6167237.stmcould 911 be blowback.
Putin's elections are much more fair than Yeltsain's. The drop in Putin's popularity is more likely due to the fact that he made the day of Yeltsin's death a day of mourning rather than a day of celebration
pinko | December 1, 2007, 6:30pm | #
"I cannot wait for oil prices to go down, depriving these worthless thugs of the cash propping up their rotten economies. Too bad real humans will have to suffer as well."Bakedpenguin,
Why do you hate America so much?
pinko | December 1, 2007, 6:57pm | #
"It is really sad to see the decline of Venezuela in the past nine years."Sorry to break this to you, but the decline started before the Chavez years. It's just that those who suffered the brunt of that decline weren't being listened to, at all. Nobody gave a fuck.
It would be really nice if people here didn't suddenly spring to attention only after clowns like Chavez take the stage.
atrevete | December 1, 2007, 7:12pm | #
It would be really nice if people didn't draw their conclusions about Venezuela from screeds written by dorky gringoes.Anyone who has been to Venezuela, before and after Chavez, can SEE the decline.
Juan | December 1, 2007, 7:14pm | #
It is funny to see the First World's lefties trying to claim they know more about our country that we do, heh?grumpy realist | December 2, 2007, 11:47am | #
One reason Putin has been so strong in Russia is--face it--Russia historically has never had a system that didn't have a strongman at the top. The Bolsheviks turned the whole place upside down but still ended up with one strong guy at the top. So what's new?The idealism of people to assume that "democracy is a natural attribute of the people" always amuses me. Historians know better.
And yes, Russians tried "demokratia" and weren't too happy with the economic results, so is it any surprise that they've gone back to the traditional system they feel comfortable with? I predict that if Putin manages to deliver the economic goods, Russians will be very happy to keep him in power.
Talking about "freedom" doesn't sound that great to someone who's near-starving and having to worry constantly about being robbed/murdered. He's much more likely to follow any system that can fill his belly and keep him protected--be it under warlords, a strongman, the Taliban, or the Mafia.
Yet another reason why "anarcho-libertarianism" will never work.
B | December 2, 2007, 3:00pm | #
I wonder how long it will be before sycophantic assholes like joe claim it's all democratic because "elections" are involved. If anyone is stupid enough at this point to believe the votes in Venezuala are legitimate, they shoud be shot for being so damn stupid.Bopo | December 2, 2007, 3:04pm | #
"The date of the Dr. Allende's death on Sept. 11, 1973 this came about through CIA and US interference and ushered in Pinochet thanlks guys. This was Chile's 911 more than 3000 people were killed in Pinochet's rule http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/6167237.stmcould 911 be blowback"
Please explain to me what the fuck this has to do with anything now. How typical. Someone points out the obvious, that Chavez is a murderous socialist thug, and some stupid asshole brings up something totally unrelated that occured thirty four years ago.
As for that being Chile's 9-11, try again asshole. Nothing Pinochet did was even fucking illegal. If you don't believe me, perhaps you should do a little research.
Bopo | December 2, 2007, 3:05pm | #
To clarify, nothing that Pinochet did to assume power was a violation of Chile's constitution. What he may or may not done afterwards is different.karim29007 | December 2, 2007, 3:58pm | #
On Mr.Moynihan's Venezuelan.......The article was so trashy that may be no comment would have been more appropriate, however a new low was achieved in check-book journalism.
I did not realize that the REASON HAS BEEN BOUGHT by THE NEWS INTERNATIONAL.
We learn every day.
I would like to make a suggestion to the editor namely that such articles on important subject as this should be rigorously checked before its publication.
Thank you.