I spent Saturday with the Ron Paul hordes in Philadelphia: Around 4000 people rallying on Independence Mall for two hours of speeches, capped off with a stemwinder by the candidate.I've put up my photos right here.
ReLOVElution Rock
I spent Saturday with the Ron Paul hordes in Philadelphia: Around 4000 people rallying on Independence Mall for two hours of speeches, capped off with a stemwinder by the candidate.I've put up my photos right here.
Comments to "ReLOVElution Rock":
Trey | November 11, 2007, 10:20am | #
"Note Kurt Vonnegut in the camera section."Somehow, I am not surprised he would show up; he looks good for being dead.
I wish I could have been there, and I am very much alive!
Hugh Akston | November 11, 2007, 10:34am | #
Well those pictures ought to dispell the myth that Paul supporters are a bunch of outcast mutants.The crow wasn't really that big, the same dozen people just showed up over and over again.
Piig Mannix | November 11, 2007, 11:00am | #
From his web site, it appears Ron Paul will be on Face the Nation this morning:Ron Paul on Face the Nation (11/10/07)Should be good...
Dr. Paul will be interviewed Sunday morning (Nov. 11) on CBS News' Face the Nation with Bob Schieffer
Great pictures. The support for Ron Paul continues to surprise me. I have been a libertarian for 20 years and have always felt like a one percenter, this is the first time I have actually felt like a candidate with a lot of my views actually has some support.
ACJohn | November 11, 2007, 11:16am | #
The intelligence, humbleness, honesty, integrity and conviction of beliefs are palatable when Dr. Paul speaks. How any citizens of this nation, with even a moderate knowledge of the concepts of individual liberty and limited government can’t see Dr. Paul as a reincarnation of the spirit of the founding Fathers confounds me?Starting today anytime I want to waste money on a Starbucks coffee, a rag of a newspaper and going out to eat junk, will be put to a stop and every penny will be saved to donate on December 16th. http://www.teaparty07.com/ Frugal living for Ron Paul, think twice in the coming weeks about if you really need a new piece of bling, how about renting a movie instead of going out…
I challenge all of you to make minimal personal sacrifices now for a brighter future!
Signed,
Republican Hippie
John
The Geico sign was great. Go Ron. He was great on Face the Nation today. Bob Scheiffer was dumbfounded by the fact that a guy who wants to dismantle much of the bureaucracy could actually be garnering support and money.
Meanwhile, on "Reliable Sources" [CNN] a little while ago, they trotted out the classic politically-savvy-insider analysis of Paul as an "eccentric doctor" who for some utterly unfathomable reason wants to do away with the Education Department and the United Nations, who has somehow contrived to separate a lot of naive dopes from money which might be better spent making commercials to explain why Rudy Giuliani shouldn't be washing windshields down by the entrance to the Holland Tunnel.
Edward | November 11, 2007, 11:54am | #
I hate to break this news to you, but dupes, dopes, dunderheads and look normal and spiffy. Nothing dumbfounding at all about a bunch of political keeners carrying signs for their candidate. Nothing has changed. Ron Paul is still a joke who won't win fuckall.Why did Paul say he wants to go back to the gold standard? I thought he just wanted to legalize alternate forms of currency.
Aren't alternate forms of currency already legal? I.e., the "liberty dollar"?
I was there with three friends, smoking cigarettes and screaming out "FREEDOM!" at the top of my (battered) lungs. Well worth the chilliness to see about 3,800 Ron Paul supporters charged up. The (visible) lunatic fringe was rather small, too. Lots of college kids, families, and veterans.
bob | November 11, 2007, 12:02pm | #
Aren't alternate forms of currency already legal? I.e., the "liberty dollar"?Legal yes, but these alternative currencies have been hassled by the govt and are targets of mis-information campaigns sponsored by your tax dollars.
http://digg.com/politics/Liberty_Dollar_Says_NO_to_the_US_Mint_Allegations
Please? | November 11, 2007, 12:08pm | #
If someone comes here and one hundred percent of the time is nothing but a complete dick, and he does it for a long time, and his sole purpose in life is to piss on people's hopes and dreams for a freer and more prosperous America, and he's clearly a deranged asshole, is not okay to IP ban him?Please? | November 11, 2007, 12:09pm | #
*"is it not okay," that should have read.Give unto Toast | November 11, 2007, 12:15pm | #
It doesn't help that the "liberty dollar" guys are a bit strange and just add to the confusion by their denomination. Why don't ".999 troy oz of..." coins get so much attention? Because then people realize they'd have to have an up-to-date table to conversions handy.If you like metal so much, invest in it. A better solution is to invest in a variety of things you think are important enough to invest in. Now get rid of most of the government, all taxes, and that stupid haircut. Almost there.
How any citizens of this nation, with even a moderate knowledge of the concepts of individual liberty and limited government can’t see Dr. Paul as a reincarnation of the spirit of the founding Fathers confounds me?Lots of people don't want limited government. But someone still needs to explain that one to me.
tarran | November 11, 2007, 12:15pm | #
I'm starting to think that Edward is actually a big Ron Paul fan.If he is a fan, he supports Ron Paul by pissing off people who are sympathetic to Ron Paul but are not actively supporting him. These pissed off people are then motivated to do something to support Ron Paul as a way of saying "fuck you" to Edward.
I think Edward has attracted more people into supporting Ron Paul than the vast majority of Ron Paul's overt supporters.
If I were an official in Ron Paul's campaign, I would say "thank you" to Edward for all the help he's given to the campaign. ;)
Edward | November 11, 2007, 12:23pm | #
tarranShit, you've blown my cover. Isn't constantly pointing out that Ron Paul is a crackpot with major backing from morons and neo-Nazis a brilliant strategy? Morons and neo-Nazis love it. And, no, Ron Paul won't return the "tainted" money.
J sub D | November 11, 2007, 12:31pm | #
If someone comes here and one hundred percent of the time is nothing but a complete dick, and he does it for a long time, and his sole purpose in life is to piss on people's hopes and dreams for a freer and more prosperous America, and he's clearly a deranged asshole, is not okay to IP ban him?Nah. Libertarians support free speech even for goat fuckers like Edward. We're principled that way.
The Wine Commonsewer | November 11, 2007, 12:42pm | #
Well, J Sub D, it is possible to get banned from H&R, just not likely. Remember that gay/bi French attorney guy a couple of years ago? Cavanaugh banned him.Personally, I think Edward actually did quit and someone resurrected him and he now exists in the same alternate universe as Juanita. Just a theory.
I'd like to know what you can actually be banned for. Apparently, being obnoxious isn't enough. I know impersonating a moderator is one, what are the other infractions?
The Wine Commonsewer | November 11, 2007, 12:46pm | #
CNN's post rally interview with RP is at TWC here.Everytime Edward says something negative about RP on here, I donate $5. I'm closing in on my max donations of $2,300.
J sub D | November 11, 2007, 12:48pm | #
Personally, I think Edward actually did quit and someone resurrected him and he now exists in the same alternate universe as Juanita. Just a theory.TWC, you could be right there. It happens in the comic books all the time. Old villian dies, new villian adopts the costume and shtick. It could be the same with a troll nom de plume.
The Wine Commonsewer | November 11, 2007, 12:50pm | #
Cesar, the guy I'm thinking of made Edward look like a pansy. He would go on long tirades with generous use of language that would get your mouth soaped. I think he called Cavanaugh a fucking asshole once too many times, but I can't remember for sure.P Brooks | November 11, 2007, 12:52pm | #
" It happens in the comic books all the time. "Ladies and Gentlemen, I present to you, the Dread Pirate Edward.
Cesar | November 11, 2007, 12:53pm | #
Cesar, the guy I'm thinking of made Edward look like a pansy. He would go on long tirades with generous use of language that would get your mouth soaped. I think he called Cavanaugh a fucking asshole once too many times, but I can't remember for sure.I know who you are talking about, but his name escapes me.
When I was a lurker I thought Jersey McJones was pretty godwaful, I wonder if he got the ban hammer.
Guy Montag | November 11, 2007, 12:58pm | #
Dave,Thanks for the pictures! I have not seen a circus since I ran into you by the Navy Memorial.
This Jeffrey Toobin guy on CSPAN-2 right now is interesting, but quirky.
The Wine Commonsewer | November 11, 2007, 1:05pm | #
Pig, Mark Kilmer does a nice weekly Sunday news show recap his own blog (Rightsided.org) and for Red State. He's a news junkie and he's pretty good at it.Since I missed FTN I cruised by Red State to see what Mark had to say (it's not up at his blog yet). It would seem that RP did quite well. Hopefully someone will post the FTN interview on U Tube soon.
FYI, Mark is a libertarian leaning conservative and a hell of a nice guy.
The Wine Commonsewer | November 11, 2007, 1:06pm | #
Jersey McJones, yeah, I was grateful to have forgotten about him.The Wine Commonsewer | November 11, 2007, 1:07pm | #
Mr Weigel, I, for one, am very happy that you identified Kurt V. because I would not have had a clue otherwise.Thanks for posting the pictures but I didn't see the Kosmik Kid. Told him to find you and mention my name.
BakedPenguin | November 11, 2007, 1:11pm | #
Note Kurt Vonnegut in the camera section.I thought he looked more like a love child of Vonnegut & Einstein.
Don't think to hard about that, it's not a picture you want in your mind.
The Wine Commonsewer | November 11, 2007, 1:24pm | #
OTOH, it would not break my heart to see Edward fertilizing pine trees at Forest Lawn. Let's get up a petition. :-)Please? | November 11, 2007, 1:24pm | #
Signed.Pig Mannix | November 11, 2007, 1:27pm | #
@TWCPig, Mark Kilmer does a nice weekly Sunday news show recap his own blog (Rightsided.org) and for Red State. He's a news junkie and he's pretty good at it.
Thanks, I wasn't able to catch it myself. I'll stop by there later and see if he's posted a recap.
J sub D | November 11, 2007, 1:34pm | #
...Let's get up a petition. :-)Anybody got a pen I can borrow?
MPG | November 11, 2007, 1:38pm | #
I was at the rally yesterday, and there were a wide variety of people there. Ron Paul himself pointed out that diversity of the crowd. There were a few oddballs-I picked up at least one pamphlet from the John Birch Society. Still, there were also a lot of hippies and anarchists there.Does he have a chance? Hell if I know. Still, it was good to see so many people who actually cared about the state of their country.
A veterans' group nearby was holding a display of tombstones dedicated to the troops who've died in Iraq so far. At least one guy commented on how disgusting it was that big government could get so many people killed for no good reason. At least this crowd wasn't asleep like most of their countrymen.
Syloson of Samos | November 11, 2007, 2:00pm | #
Edward,While it is unlikely that Paul will win the nomination, much less the Presidency, he has done far batter than was expected by most.
ACJohn | November 11, 2007, 2:02pm | #
My wife and I attended the Rally as well; it was cold, but the turn-out was inspiring. The fact is that this is a youth driven movement. The key statement is movement which bodes well for us in the future. The idea that these young people can rally around a message of strict constitutional adherence and individual liberty delivered by a 72 year old warms is curmudgeon’s heart.This country is like an alcoholic that unfortunately needs to hit bottom before it can begin to change to a more positive course. Has that time come? Can Ron Paul win? Maybe and I concede that it is just a Hope right now. However, the more we support him the more the message gets out, and helps change the national debate.
Is Ron Paul the perfect candidate? No. He comes as close to perfection as any has in my lifetime.
The Wine Commonsewer | November 11, 2007, 2:08pm | #
MPG, thanks for the recap.Some raw video footage from the rally. Do not watch this if you have a hangover.
The Wine Commonsewer | November 11, 2007, 2:09pm | #
AC John, nicely said. He comes as close......Captain Awesome | November 11, 2007, 2:28pm | #
Did the dude you're thinking of use the handle "Gary Gunnels" or something to that effect, as well as a few others. I think one of the moderators asked him to leave a few times, and he came back with the new reincarnations.Ayn_Randian | November 11, 2007, 3:06pm | #
While it is unlikely that Paul will win the nomination, much less the Presidency, he has done far batter than was expected by most.Wow, what a brave, novel observation there, GG...really putting yourself out there on that one...
The Wine Commonsewer | November 11, 2007, 3:06pm | #
Yes, Cap'n, it was Gunnels, and yes, he did come back with a bunch of different aliases. Actually, he used aliases before he was banned as well, posting under many different names.I sometimes suspect that eventually he came back under another name and is now minding his P's & Q's.
Neu Mejican | November 11, 2007, 3:26pm | #
I have been a libertarian for 20 years and have always felt like a one percenterWhile the LP only garner's 1%ish support, the number of Americans who espouse libertarian ideals (at least enough to put them toward the libertarian end of the spectrum) is much larger.
I have seen estimates in the 35-60% range.
Moderately libertarian describes a lot of people.
Cesar | November 11, 2007, 3:29pm | #
Moderately libertarian describes a lot of people.As long as you don't say "Mainstream Liertarian". That would mean you-know-who.
Is this the Official Reason Endorsement of Ron Paul? I await such, with bated breath.
The Wine Commonsewer | November 11, 2007, 3:40pm | #
lots of people are libertarian about some things. I can always find people who are libertarian about taxes. Just hard to find people who are libertarian about taxes that are also libertarian about the rest of the enchilada.The Wine Commonsewer | November 11, 2007, 3:40pm | #
Reason does not endorse candidates. Might be illegal for them to do so.Most people who are "libertarian" about only taxes also want more money for schools, roads, the military, SCHIP, (insert pet program X here). Tax cuts are popular, but so are peoples pet programs. Thus, deficit spending.
CharlesWT | November 11, 2007, 3:42pm | #
Ron Paul — Face The Nation - 11/11/07And yet they continue to endorse Ron Paul, albeit just barely by skirting their own stated boundaries.
ed | November 11, 2007, 3:48pm | #
Does Reason endorse candidates?No. Individual writers for the magazine may take positions on candidates or other political issues, but they represent only themselves, not the magazine as an institution. Reason takes an analytical, educational approach. It does not tell its readers how to vote.
Pig Mannix | November 11, 2007, 3:52pm | #
@severinI have been a libertarian for 20 years and have always felt like a one percenter, this is the first time I have actually felt like a candidate with a lot of my views actually has some support.
Well, according to these 2 New Hampshire polls at RCP, you're now a 7 percenter.
Reasons to be cheerful......
@ed
Is this the Official Reason Endorsement of Ron Paul? I await such, with bated breath.
I believe it's against their editorial policy to endorse candidates or parties.
AC | November 11, 2007, 3:53pm | #
I sometimes suspect that eventually he came back under another name and is now minding his P's & Q's.Your suspicion is correct.
For the record, I support Ron Paul. But it bothers me that an ostensibly nonpartisan entity such as Reason continues to claim neutrality while incessantly campaigning for Ron Paul. I think it undermines their credibility.
guy in the back row | November 11, 2007, 4:01pm | #
"Note Kurt Vonnegut in the camera section."Are you sure that's not the guy who played Commander Data on Star Trek?
The Wine Commonsewer | November 11, 2007, 4:01pm | #
Ed,I'm not positive but I believe the fact that Reason is an exempt organization that 5013(c) precludes them from endorsing candidates.
The Wine Commonsewer | November 11, 2007, 4:03pm | #
AC, interesting. I'm wondering who it might be.Now I have to go back to pretending to load the dishwasher.........
The Wine Commonsewer | November 11, 2007, 4:04pm | #
CharlesWT, you are the man. Thanks.crimethink | November 11, 2007, 4:13pm | #
Out of teh Memory Hole...the Gary Gunnels gets Banned thread.The Wine Commonsewer | November 11, 2007, 4:15pm | #
RP was fabulous on FTN. One of his better public appearances. Really well done.Fluffy | November 11, 2007, 4:16pm | #
Actually, the magazine side is somewhat bereft of Paul material.It's only on the blog side that you get a lot of Paul stuff.
I think that's a function less of a desire to endorse than the simple fact that if you have to produce Reasonish content day by day, the Paul campaign is pretty much where it's at right now.
The Wine Commonsewer | November 11, 2007, 4:20pm | #
Crime, that was worth a smile. Thanks. Now, everybody knows what can get you banned.Guy Montag | November 11, 2007, 4:21pm | #
I believe that Mr. Gillespie has noted that his personal policy is to endorse whomever the Libertarian Party nominates.Syloson of Samos | November 11, 2007, 4:22pm | #
ed,I don't get the feeling that Reason has endorsed any particular candidate.
Edward | November 11, 2007, 4:23pm | #
Paul has as much of a chance of winning as "Urkobold" has of being funny: ZERO.Fucking fools.
Syloson of Samos | November 11, 2007, 4:25pm | #
Guy Montag,A person who won't be known until May of next year.
J sub D | November 11, 2007, 4:31pm | #
If at first you don't succeed,...As long as you don't say "Mainstream Liertarian". That would mean you-know-who.
I dunno, WHOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO?
Pro Choice | November 11, 2007, 4:35pm | #
Ron Paul wants to leave the abortion issue to the states, but can't state governments be just as oppressive as the federal government?crimethink | November 11, 2007, 4:37pm | #
Echoing Dan T, it's easier to move to another state than to move to another country.The Wine Commonsewer | November 11, 2007, 4:40pm | #
Gosh, where is Tim Cavanaugh when you need him to ban someone? Oh, yeah, he's at the LA Times. [shrugs]Pro, of course the states can be just as oppressive as the feds. The locals ain't no slouches neither.
Shotgun sings the song regards, TWC
Average American | November 11, 2007, 4:44pm | #
Who is this Ron Paul anyway?Syloson of Samos | November 11, 2007, 4:47pm | #
Average American,Well, name recognition is something almost any candidate is going to have win. So that is not unique to Paul's campaign.
Edward | November 11, 2007, 4:50pm | #
Of the 500 or so reasons Ron Paul will never get the nomination, poor name recognition is very near the bottom. The top reason? He is obviously an addle-brained kook.Mainstream Media | November 11, 2007, 4:50pm | #
He's an eccentric Texas doctor who wants to return to the gold standard, end Social Security and Medicare, close the United Nations, and allow your children to do drugs.Edward | November 11, 2007, 4:58pm | #
Ron Paul's biggest appeal is to dimwitted party-line libertarian losers who couldn't grab their asses with both hands if their lives dependended on it and assorted right-wing fanatics from Birchers to Nazis. Thankfully, both camps are fringe minorities.Guy Montag | November 11, 2007, 5:03pm | #
Wow, I had the impression that it was unpossible to get banned here. Seems Mr. Gunnels is proof that one can be. Anybody else get banned here?In other news, Carl Edwards lead about 87 laps of the Phoenix race today, until he came in under green with a suspected engine problem.
Any bets on what is going to fall apart on Dale Jr.'s car this race? Wrote too late, he just went into the inside wall.
OB comment: Is RP going to debate in Ohio or is he just sticking with States that the income tax protestors recognize?
Edward | November 11, 2007, 5:05pm | #
Now I'll bet even more money is pouring into the Ron Paul's coffers from pissed-off dimwitted party-line libertarian losers. I should be getting a cut.Nash | November 11, 2007, 5:12pm | #
"For the record, I support Ron Paul. But it bothers me that an ostensibly nonpartisan entity such as Reason continues to claim neutrality while incessantly campaigning for Ron Paul. I think it undermines their credibility."Considering he's the ONLY Libertarian leaning candidate actively campaigning for President right now and the primaries are only months away I chalk it up to being "topical".
Yes I realize other libertarians are running but they aren't going to matter anyway, and will only matter slightly in the general. Maybe Phillies (or whoever the nominee is) will get some coverage then.
longtimelurker | November 11, 2007, 5:14pm | #
Gunnells called Cavanaugh a faggot or something. It was a very personal insult from an arrogant and prickish poster.Guy Montag | November 11, 2007, 5:15pm | #
That French guy, who won the Indy 500 in recent past, the past just destroyed his car.Those fenders are not made of indestructium man!
Guy Montag | November 11, 2007, 5:16pm | #
oops!That French guy, who won the Indy 500 in recent past, just destroyed his car.
Better.
guy in the back row | November 11, 2007, 5:17pm | #
Mainstream Media: You write that as if those are bad positions.crimethink | November 11, 2007, 5:18pm | #
under the Unborn Angel handle, I called Cavanaugh "bitch" in response to a very offensive comment he made in his post, and he retaliated by posting my IP address in the thread.Never got banned, though.
Syloson of Samos | November 11, 2007, 5:21pm | #
Guy Montag,There have been a number of bans (a dozen or so maybe?), though I know of no permanent bans.
Guy Montag | November 11, 2007, 5:27pm | #
Kasey Khane just wrecked out.Does anybody know if Ron Paul appreciates NASCAR at least as much as John Kerry?
J sub D | November 11, 2007, 5:50pm | #
Does anybody know if Ron Paul appreciates NASCAR at least as much as John Kerry?He can't appreciate NASCAR less than I do. ;-)
Syloson of Samos | November 11, 2007, 6:07pm | #
J sub D,I've read that some NASCAR fans have done some Ron Paul related stuff at races.
J sub D | November 11, 2007, 6:30pm | #
I've read that some NASCAR fans have done some Ron Paul related stuff at races.That's great. I'm not a fan, but untold millions are. There's votes in them thar hills.
Captain Awesome | November 11, 2007, 6:42pm | #
"under the Unborn Angel handle, I called Cavanaugh "bitch" in response to a very offensive comment he made in his post, and he retaliated by posting my IP address in the thread."Wow, I remember that. It was very near the beginning of my visits to reason. Struck me as a little unprofessional at the time.
Rick Barton | November 11, 2007, 6:43pm | #
Edward:Shit, you've blown my cover. Isn't constantly pointing out that Ron Paul is a crackpot with major backing from morons and neo-Nazis a brilliant strategy?
Ron Paul supporters should be quite gratified by Edward's opposition. It's nice when the opposition is this slow-witted and unethical.
Hey Edward, when are you gonna fuss up again and threaten to crash the Reason site like you threatened to crash the URKABOLD site? Ha! Judging by what you write, you're too stupid crash a party. You're just a troll, only dumber.
Rick Barton | November 11, 2007, 6:45pm | #
...Make that, Edward is: "too stupid *to* crash a party"Captain Awesome | November 11, 2007, 6:47pm | #
@CharlesWT: I gave $25 to celebrate Veterans Day. Figure it certainly wouldn't hurt.mk | November 11, 2007, 7:46pm | #
TWC,I think you may be referring to "Libertarian Larry". If so, he wasn't banned so much as he died.
P Brooks | November 11, 2007, 8:05pm | #
Psst- Guy,That
Guy Montag | November 11, 2007, 8:11pm | #
Yea, that French guy from KKKnadia. Oh, you with the details.Hugh Akston | November 11, 2007, 8:29pm | #
Ron Paul wants to leave the abortion issue to the states, but can't state governments be just as oppressive as the federal government?No. They can be, at worst, 1/50th as oppressive as the Fed. While getting anything accomplished at the federal level takes decades and millions of dollars (or one suitably atrocious terrorist act), states have passed all sorts of wacky laws like gay unions, incandescent lamp bans, TABOR amendments, and constitutional amendments guaranteeing stem cell research funds.
States are much more responsive to the desires of their residents than that high tower on the Potomac.
M | November 11, 2007, 8:33pm | #
Anybody else get banned here?Oh, yeah.
Others of us avoid ostracism by getting around to posting on threads only after they've died, zombie-like.
The $50 is the new $20 | November 11, 2007, 8:53pm | #
The Libertarian Party oughta consider going dormant for the 2008 presidential race if Ron Paul wins the GOP nomination.iih | November 11, 2007, 9:04pm | #
Isn't it Gadsden and not Gadsen as Dave has it?Edward | November 11, 2007, 9:04pm | #
For all practical purposes the Libertarian Party is already dormant.Edward | November 11, 2007, 9:17pm | #
How can libertarians get so fucking excited about a completely unelectable kook like Ron Paul? Jesus, it's pathetic.Edward | November 11, 2007, 9:21pm | #
How is this for kooky?From "The War on Religion" by Ron Paul
"The notion of a rigid separation between church and state has no basis in either the text of the Constitution or the writings of our Founding Fathers. On the contrary, our Founders’ political views were strongly informed by their religious beliefs. Certainly the drafters of the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution, both replete with references to God, would be aghast at the federal government’s hostility to religion. The establishment clause of the First Amendment was simply intended to forbid the creation of an official state church like the Church of England, not to drive religion out of public life.
The Founding Fathers envisioned a robustly Christian yet religiously tolerant America, with churches serving as vital institutions that would eclipse the state in importance. Throughout our nation’s history, churches have done what no government can ever do, namely teach morality and civility. Moral and civil individuals are largely governed by their own sense of right and wrong, and hence have little need for external government. This is the real reason the collectivist Left hates religion: Churches as institutions compete with the state for the people’s allegiance, and many devout people put their faith in God before their faith in the state. Knowing this, the secularists wage an ongoing war against religion, chipping away bit by bit at our nation’s Christian heritage. Christmas itself may soon be a casualty of that war."
iih | November 11, 2007, 9:22pm | #
Edward:I am not sure I have heard from you, but:
1. Who is electable in your view? and
2. Who are you voting for?
And also let me ask: if it so happens that the one candidate that you really like turns out not to be electable, would you vote for the guy(/gal) with whom you totally diasgree with simple because the other guy(/gal) is electable and yours isn't? Seriously, would you do that? Wouldn't that be like prostitution?
Edward | November 11, 2007, 9:25pm | #
Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch towards uniformity.-Thomas Jefferson, Notes on Virginia, 1782
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But it does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods or no God. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg.
-Thomas Jefferson, Notes on Virginia, 1782
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What is it men cannot be made to believe!
-Thomas Jefferson to Richard Henry Lee, April 22, 1786. (on the British regarding America, but quoted here for its universal appeal.)
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Question with boldness even the existence of a god; because if there be one he must approve of the homage of reason more than that of blindfolded fear.
-Thomas Jefferson, Letter to Peter Carr, August 10, 1787
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Where the preamble declares, that coercion is a departure from the plan of the holy author of our religion, an amendment was proposed by inserting "Jesus Christ," so that it would read "A departure from the plan of Jesus Christ, the holy author of our religion;" the insertion was rejected by the great majority, in proof that they meant to comprehend, within the mantle of its protection, the Jew and the Gentile, the Christian and Mohammedan, the Hindoo and Infidel of every denomination.
-Thomas Jefferson, Autobiography, in reference to the Virginia Act for Religious Freedom
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I concur with you strictly in your opinion of the comparative merits of atheism and demonism, and really see nothing but the latter in the being worshipped by many who think themselves Christians.
-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Richard Price, Jan. 8, 1789 (Richard Price had written to TJ on Oct. 26. about the harm done by religion and wrote "Would not Society be better without Such religions? Is Atheism less pernicious than Demonism?")
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I never submitted the whole system of my opinions to the creed of any party of men whatever in religion, in philosophy, in politics, or in anything else where I was capable of thinking for myself. Such an addiction is the last degradation of a free and moral agent.
-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Francis Hopkinson, March 13, 1789
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They [the clergy] believe that any portion of power confided to me, will be exerted in opposition to their schemes. And they believe rightly; for I have sworn upon the altar of god, eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man. But this is all they have to fear from me: and enough, too, in their opinion.
-Thomas Jefferson to Dr. Benjamin Rush, Sept. 23, 1800
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Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man and his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legislative powers of government reach actions only, and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should 'make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,' thus building a wall of separation between church and State.
-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Danbury Baptist Association, CT., Jan. 1, 1802
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History, I believe, furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people maintaining a free civil government. This marks the lowest grade of ignorance of which their civil as well as religious leaders will always avail themselves for their own purposes.
-Thomas Jefferson to Alexander von Humboldt, Dec. 6, 1813.
iih | November 11, 2007, 9:28pm | #
Edward:I can send you a video of Ron Paul defending Muslims, for example.
Also, you have to put his defense of Christianity in full perspective by comparing it with his record on separating state and church.
I am not Christian, but RP's religious views (as expressed in the excerpt you quote above) do not scare me a bit.
iih | November 11, 2007, 9:29pm | #
Edward- In case you missed it, here is my comment from above. Please respond:~~
Edward:
I am not sure I have heard from you, but:
1. Who is electable in your view? and
2. Who are you voting for?
And also let me ask: if it so happens that the one candidate that you really like turns out not to be electable, would you vote for the guy(/gal) with whom you totally diasgree with simple because the other guy(/gal) is electable and yours isn't? Seriously, would you do that? Wouldn't that be like prostitution?
Edward | November 11, 2007, 9:30pm | #
iih,Any of the other candidates in either party, except maybe for Dennis Kucinich are concievably electable in a way that Ron Paul isn't. His views are way too marginal and extreme. That's why he appeals to marginal extremists. Like most Americans, I'll probably vote for whoever the Democratic nominee is.
Edward | November 11, 2007, 9:31pm | #
I like Thomas Jefferson's views on religion a lot better than Ron Paul'siih | November 11, 2007, 9:33pm | #
Any of the other candidates in either party, except maybe for Dennis Kucinich are concievably electable in a way that Ron Paul isn't. His views are way too marginal and extreme. That's why he appeals to marginal extremists. Like most Americans, I'll probably vote for whoever the Democratic nominee is.OK, though I never thought that asking for liberty is an extreme position.
So to answer the question:
Wouldn't that be like prostitution?
Would the answer be in the affirmative?
andronoid | November 11, 2007, 9:37pm | #
quoting the same person over and over does nothing to prove your point. Paul's view is consistent with many founding father's inconsistent with others. In any event, whether or not we should be a Christian nation has nothing to do the proper role of government."We have no government armed with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion. Avarice, ambition, revenge, or gallantry, would break the strongest cords of our Constitution as a whale goes through a net. Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other." --John Adams, October 11, 1798
Jerry | November 11, 2007, 9:37pm | #
I saw a Ron Paul snippet on CNN International today. He had to explain why he didn't support giving a congressional medal to Parks. He did not have to explain why he didn't support giving a congressional medal to the Reagans. Deep sigh.Edward | November 11, 2007, 9:39pm | #
iihOh, right, Ron Paul is for liberty. Everybody else is for slavery. I'll bet if pressed, Ron Paul favors honesty, too. Slogans are cheap and a poor substitute for thought.
Classical with us or against us thought. Not being for liberty is not the same as being for slavery. One could think that he/she is for equality for example, but that ultimately comes at the cost of liberty and, possibly, equality itself!
Edward | November 11, 2007, 9:43pm | #
“Of all the systems of religion that ever were invented, there is no more derogatory to the Almighty, more unedifying to man, more repugnant to reason, and more contradictory to itself than this thing called Christianity” --Thomas PaineGuy Montag | November 11, 2007, 9:49pm | #
Wow, looks like someone is trying to tweek the "how to get banned" formula by staying under 100 words, but making 100 comments.Edward | November 11, 2007, 9:52pm | #
"I'm frankly sick and tired of thepolitical preachers across this country telling me as a citizen that if
I want to be a moral person, I must believe in 'A,' 'B,' 'C,' and 'D.'
Just who do they think they are? And from where do they presume to
claim the right to dictate their moral beliefs to me? And I am even
more angry as a legislator who must endure the threats of every
religious group who thinks it has some God-granted right to control my
vote on every roll call in the Senate. I am warning them today:
I will fight them every step of the way if they try to dictate their
moral convictions to all Americans in the name of 'conservatism.'" -- Barry Goldwater
@Edward | November 11, 2007, 9:58pm | #
Slogans are cheap and a poor substitute for thought.DR. DOG | November 11, 2007, 10:06pm | #
His views are way too marginal and extreme. That's why he appeals to marginal extremists."Extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice." -- Barry Goldwater
Edward | November 11, 2007, 10:13pm | #
"Extremism in the pursuit of a theocracy most definitely is a vice"--Barry Goldwater's GhostEdward | November 11, 2007, 10:15pm | #
On Ron Paul, one thing is for sure: I'll have the last laugh.iih | November 11, 2007, 10:17pm | #
On Ron Paul, one thing is for sure: I'll have the last laugh.When liberty in this country is dead?
Guy Montag | November 11, 2007, 10:18pm | #
You get the constituency that you deserve.- Kathryn Jean Lopez wrote something like that about the Ron Paul collection of supporters.
Edward | November 11, 2007, 10:52pm | #
Geez if you wouldn't repsond to trolls, the trolls would go away, and you could enjoy your echo chamber. How about exercizing a little self-control. Don't feed the trolls!Even if Ron Paul never got another single interview, another media mention, or another nickel in donations, he has already done more to advance the message of hands off government and hands off foreign policy than any other politician since the ratification of the Bill of Rights. There have been many others with the principles and the message, but none has done more than Ron Paul has done up to this point.
Rimfax | November 11, 2007, 10:57pm | #
Edward,If we stopped feeding you, you might go away. As was observed earlier in this thread, with your passionately content-free insults you are doing an exceptional job of engendering support for Paul here. If you are a Paul plant, kudos to you, please don't ever take off the mask and ruin it for the rest of us. We hate/love you just the way you are.
M | November 11, 2007, 10:58pm | #
Mr. Edward @10:13 pm:To point out the obvious, paragraph #2 of the passages you quoted from Ron Paul at 9:21 pm hardly constitutes a brief for theocracy; quite the reverse.
Edward | November 11, 2007, 11:02pm | #
RimfaxWow! Ron Paul's the best defender of whatever it is you so fervently believe since the ratification of the Bill of Rights??!! Fuck! When it comes to hero worship, the fascists are pikers. Move over Benito!
Edward | November 11, 2007, 11:05pm | #
MI'll bet Thomas Jefferson would contribute to Ron Paul's campaign.
matthew hogan | November 11, 2007, 11:06pm | #
Not to feed the troll, but what's up with the Guy Fawkes day theme -- a terrorist who tried to overthrow representative government because it wasn't the theocracy of his liking?M | November 11, 2007, 11:06pm | #
He. Already. Has.Edward | November 11, 2007, 11:07pm | #
Yeah, I'll bet I've made a lot of converts to Ron Paul in this skeptical, free-thinking crowd.Edward | November 11, 2007, 11:09pm | #
Matthew,People who think the founding fathers were fervent Christians don't know much history. Ron Paul probably thinks Guy Fawkes sold Christmas trees.
Syloson of Samos | November 11, 2007, 11:10pm | #
matthew hogan,Stuart England under James I (or VI if one were in Scotland) was a lot of things but it was hardly a representative government and it officially driscriminated against people based on their religious beliefs.
Johncjackson | November 11, 2007, 11:17pm | #
I was banned once because I said I didn't like Eminem.Paul | November 11, 2007, 11:27pm | #
Edward:I should be getting a cut.
A cut is precisely what you'll be getting if you keep up the trash-talk.
Gregory | November 12, 2007, 12:07am | #
Everyone except Paul and Kucinich is electable?Mike Huckabee, Mike Gravel and Duncan Hunter all had a laugh at that. Fred Thompson just yawned.
gregory | November 12, 2007, 12:08am | #
And of course that should read "Everyone except Paul and Kucinich ARE electable?"..."Is our children learning?"
JParker | November 12, 2007, 12:27am | #
Ron Paul does occasionally make statements about history that are either untrue or make you want to ask what direction he is coming from. For example there is no reference to God in our Constitution. Or his statement in the debate that everything turned out fine in Vietnam. I am sure that my friend Vu who's father was shot by the communists as a collaborator and spent the first 2 years of his life in the jungle because his family was running for their lives would disagree.That being said I can still consider him an honest man and I am behind him 110%.
Stevo Darkly | November 12, 2007, 12:52am | #
Why is Edward so excited about Ron Paul?Rick Barton | November 12, 2007, 1:05am | #
Edward:Oh, right, Ron Paul is for liberty. Everybody else is for slavery.
Yes, Rop Paul is for liberty and far more so than any of the other candidates appearing in the GOP or Dem debates. Ron Paul favors dramatic reductions in government spending, taxation, and regulation. Most of the other candidates would take us in the opposite direction
Edward | November 12, 2007, 2:10am | #
How on earth does such a dorky fanatic as Ron Paul inspire such devotion? How did he pick up all that Nazi support? It is all very odd.smartass sob | November 12, 2007, 2:15am | #
Oh, right, Ron Paul is for liberty. Everybody else is for slavery.Edward wrote that he would probably vote for whomever the Dems nominate. Well if that nominee is The Bitch, and it probably will be, then that is probably a vote for slavery. I have a real nasty suspicion that if Hillary becomes President, she will try to restore not only the military draft, but that she will attempt to institute a compulsory national service program of some sort as well.
She wouldn't really have to do even that; there are plenty in Congress and in her own party that have been lusting for a return of the draft, especially for national service, since back when her hubby was still in office. All she would have to do is quietly let it be known in the right places that she would not veto such a proposal.
wayne | November 12, 2007, 4:03am | #
I never saw on Gary Gunnel's posts. I guess I discovered Reason after he had already been banned.I do want to compliment Reason on the H&R blog. This is the most open and interesting blog I have discovered on the web. I tried a few of the lefty blogs (democratic underground, etc), and was immediately blocked because I dared to opine such incindiary thoughts as, "Perhaps Ronald Reagon deserves some credit for ending the cold war".
I have certainly stuck my foot in my mouth here a few times and said things that I later regretted. I appreciate not being banned here, although my comments have never gotten an email reply from any of the Reason staff, so I guess my stuff is tame by comparison to some.
Guy Montag | November 12, 2007, 5:13am | #
When Ron Paul comes out with his position on Ohio Statehood he stands the risk of losing his base. He has been sucessful in dodging the issue, for now, but that can't last forever.Of course Edward is a Ron Paul volunteer, and an excellent one at that. That RP quote about the establishment clause was wonderful. He just won probably a dozen votes from the Christian conservatives who are feeling disenchanted about the war.
Fluffy | November 12, 2007, 8:36am | #
Kathryn Jean Lopez is a worthless cunt. I read the Corner every day, and she has yet to write one single word that isn't the output of a worthless cunt.And Edward, the sole policy impact of Paul's views on religion in public life is his advocacy for a Constitutional amendment to make it plain that religious speech on public property should be as free as political speech on public property. That may make it a bit inconvenient to have certain public institutions, but that doesn't really matter to me, so I guess I can cut him some slack on this one.
robc | November 12, 2007, 9:40am | #
matthew hogan,You do realize that Guy Fawkes Day is celebrating his plot failing, right? It is anti-anarchism.
Oh, I guess you didnt.
Edward | November 12, 2007, 9:45am | #
fluffyOnce you true-believer loonies settle on a hero, you cut him a lot of slack on just about everything. From his statements on religion, Ron Paul is a fucking fanatic and regarding the founding fathers, a total ignoramus.
Pig Mannix | November 12, 2007, 10:18am | #
Edward - calling other people fanatics while foaming at the mouth yourself is not good form!Edward | November 12, 2007, 10:20am | #
Pig,Disagreement with your comfortable verities doesn't constitute foaming at the mouth. Idiot.
Gene | November 12, 2007, 11:03am | #
Dondero strikes again:http://www.americandaily.com/article/20911
He still tries in vain to be relevant.
Rick Barton | November 12, 2007, 11:36am | #
Edward:How on earth does...Ron Paul inspire such devotion?
Ron Paul's libertarian ideas and policy advocacies are strongly argued and embody a consistent adherence to principle. His honesty is a refreshing contrast in the political world.
How did he pick up all that Nazi support? It is all very odd.
What "all that Nazi support"?? Libertarianism and Nazism are pretty much opposite political philosophies. More foaming at the mouth from Edward.
Rick Barton | November 12, 2007, 11:58am | #
wayne,Glad you're here! Which other lefty blogs banned you? That's terrible.
The editors at Reason are quite committed to open debate. Heck, they even tolerate Edward's mindless nay saying. ;)
This really is the best blog in the whole damn sphere. (Ref: "Blogosphere")
I think that you're right, the evidence certainly does reveal that Ronald Reagan deserves some credit for ending the cold war.
Mark Bahner | November 12, 2007, 12:09pm | #
My wife and I attended the Rally as well; it was cold, but the turn-out was inspiring. The fact is that this is a youth driven movement. The key statement is movement which bodes well for us in the future. The idea that these young people can rally around a message of strict constitutional adherence and individual liberty delivered by a 72 year old warms is curmudgeon’s heart.That is indeed amazing. Before Ron Paul's performance in the last month or two, I would have said that the country was drifting farther and farther away from the ideas of constitutional adherence and limited government. And I would have said this was particularly true for younger people. It's so great to see that I appear to have been wrong.
iih | November 12, 2007, 12:21pm | #
Good article here:http://www.huffingtonpost.com/ken-bank/ronstock-rally-rocks-ph_b_72110.html
Look at the comments too. Some on the left are seriously considering Paul.
Guy in the back row | November 12, 2007, 12:31pm | #
Hey, being a Ron Paul supporter can help you pick up chicks!The Lifetime network did a poll among women (found here) and discovered RP gets 15% of the vote from the 18 to 24 year old ladies.
Maybe someday Reason.com will have ads showing beefcake guys wearing conservative shirts?
Edward | November 12, 2007, 12:46pm | #
Could 15% of 18- to 24-year-old women have impaired vision?guy in the back row | November 12, 2007, 1:37pm | #
Edward,Obviously they are the 15% on the right hand side of the IQ distribution ^-^
And they all look like the cuties selling conservative shirts!
Edward | November 12, 2007, 4:07pm | #
I see, Guy in the back row. You're the one with impaired vision.M | November 12, 2007, 4:32pm | #
With all due respect for Warren et aliae's wish to discouragetroll-feeding, I learn a lot from such responses. (Yeah, yeah, Edward, I know - I learn stupid things because I'm a stupid person blah blah.)Rattlesnake Jake | November 12, 2007, 4:51pm | #
"Could 15% of 18- to 24-year-old women have impaired vision?"They probably like Ron Paul because they're opposed to war.