Jonathan Rauch looks at the grown-up candidacy of Joe Biden
New at Reason
Comments to "New at Reason":
sage | October 4, 2007, 12:37pm | #
Hey guys, Ron Paul is turning heads.An Obama supporter. | October 4, 2007, 12:48pm | #
One column excerpts a July speech in Iowa by Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton of New York; the other, a September speech, also in Iowa, by Sen. Barack Obama of Illinois.• "Senator A" is Obama; "Senator B" is Clinton
Ouch!
On these pages, I, and others, have proposed partitioning Iraq. At least Senator Biden realizes that same old, same old, isn't working. A strong centralized,government in Iraq will, IMHO, lead to Saddam II, the sequel.
Ahh reason magazine continues its slow march towards becoming "just another political rag"
Alan Vanneman | October 4, 2007, 1:04pm | #
Mr. Grown Up is already back-pedaling from his plan, saying hey, if the Iraqis don't want it, fine with me. All "strategies" for Iraq strike me as sheer speculation. The U.S. invasion and staggeringly bungled occupation have disrupted the country so much that statements about what will and will not work, what the various groups want, what they will accept, are all no more than wishful thinking. Biden has a plan, but he has no way of knowing whether his plan is a good one, and neither do we.Edward | October 4, 2007, 1:06pm | #
Oh, my God! Ron Paul was mentioned on CNN! Quick, quick! Tell everybody! The tide is turning!Will Chamberlain | October 4, 2007, 1:08pm | #
Why is Jon Rauch still writing for Reason? I'm having a really hard time detecting any sort of libertarianism in his pieces.de stijl | October 4, 2007, 1:18pm | #
All "strategies" for Iraq strike me as sheer speculation.At least the partitioning plan has a semi-success story in the de facto Kurdistan. And we only had to enforce the no-fly-zone to allow that to develop.
A strong centralized,government in Iraq will, IMHO, lead to Saddam II, the sequel.
Except he will be a Shia and allied with Iran.
ed | October 4, 2007, 1:23pm | #
Biden has a plan, but he has no way of knowing whether his plan is a good oneI commend Mr. Vanneman on his spiffy avoidance of the superfluous "or not" following "whether". And no, no one can predict the future, not even a politician.
Yeah, you're right, Edward. Paul should just throw in the towel now. Except what would he do with that $5M? I know, he could get 12.500 haircuts...if he used John Edward's barber. HA!
Randolph Carter | October 4, 2007, 1:40pm | #
DOOOOOONNNNNNDDDDDDEEEEEEDDDDDDDDIIIILLLLDDDDDOOOOOWWWWWAAARRRRRDDDDDDDD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!I genuinely like Biden in that he is a very charismatic, likeable guy. I even feel for him when he says something completely stupid which is then blown out of proportion by the media. But I think that he's too infected with "Senatitis"; the condition where, after extended periods in the Senate, you can no longer take a strong stance on anything and couch all of your statements in either weasel words or immediate withdrawal of your previous statements.
JBinMO | October 4, 2007, 3:03pm | #
"Except he will be a Shia and allied with Iran."Well considering the Shia havent actually attacked us since the 1970s that may not be all that bad.
abu hamza | October 4, 2007, 4:15pm | #
this is kind of what al vanamen said. I believe Biden believes he is sincere, experienced, etc., but does JOe Biden really know and understand Iraq? what gives him the authority to make this partition/semi federalism proposal, or make him believe it is what Iraq wants?what do Iraqis believe?
R C Dean | October 4, 2007, 5:36pm | #
Well considering the Shia havent actually attacked us since the 1970s that may not be all that bad.Unless, of course, you count the dead US soldiers in Iraq killed by Iranian munitions.
Biden is a typical Senator, a gasbag in love with the sound of his voice. Reason might as well hire David Broder if it is going to print this sort of fatuousness.
Ben Rushing | October 4, 2007, 5:43pm | #
"Why is Jon Rauch still writing for Reason? I'm having a really hard time detecting any sort of libertarianism in his pieces."Ditto, why did Reason's editors allow praise for a Statist-Democrat in thier fine website?
I thought reason was about analitical Libertarian thinking, not Democrat talking points that support allowing Islamofascists to control Iraq, by leaving and allowing Syrians, Iranians, Turks, and other extream religious Statists to control Iraq's future.
Isolationism failed numerous times. Iraq's liberty and positions on women's rights will be gone the minute that we pull out of Iraq. Iraqi's are tired of being killed by Syrian, Iranian, Saudi, Jordanian, annd other Arab terorists that are attempting to spread thier evil in the region. Only a Statist would say that we are imposing freedom on people. Freedom can not be imposed, rather it must be accepted.
John Rhoads | October 4, 2007, 6:01pm | #
The fact that US Presidential candidates are discussing the details of Iraq's government is a pretty good indication of why we are seen as an unwelcome outside force in Iraq. Biden's plan probably does make the most sense for Iraq, but it's really not up to us. Iraq will never have a viable government as long as we make decisions for it.NP | October 4, 2007, 6:06pm | #
I've been thinking for the last few months that Biden is probably the most informed (or least clueless, if you insist on cynicism) of all the current presidential candidates, Democrat or Republican, when it comes to the war in Iraq. Good to see Jonathan bolster my thinking.Andoryu Rankufuado | October 4, 2007, 7:17pm | #
This article certainly isn't going to be "the kiss of death" for Biden. Clinton's poll numbers are. There isn't much in the way of reasoned public debate about the war on either side anymore if there ever was once th troops started moving. Needless to say, I doubt many voters read Reason to begin with.Mark Bahner | October 4, 2007, 10:21pm | #
"To those who disagree with my plan, I have one simple question: What is your alternative?"My plan is the "Pottery Barn" plan: "You broke it, you pay for it." (Sorry, Pottery Barn, I know this isn't actually your policy...but it sounds good.)
To wit:
1) The U.S. should pay the salary, for the next three years, of every policeperson, judge, mayor, town council member, and military person in Iraq.
2) In return for this, the Iraqi government must amend its Constitution to provide for equal distribution of 80% of the net revenues (revenues minus costs) from oil and natural gas, to each adult in Iraq.
3) The Constitution must also be amended to allow secession, within 20 years, of any province in Iraq, provided that province has a 2/3rds vote in favor of secession, twice, 5 years apart.
The Anti-Statist | October 4, 2007, 10:57pm | #
"In return for this, the Iraqi government must amend its Constitution to provide for equal distribution of 80% of the net revenues (revenues minus costs) from oil and natural gas, to each adult in Iraq."This is Socialism
"The Constitution must also be amended to allow secession, within 20 years, of any province in Iraq, provided that province has a 2/3rds vote in favor of secession, twice, 5 years apart."
What right do you have to tell Iraq's government what to do with its Constitution?
"The U.S. should pay the salary, for the next three years, of every policeperson, judge, mayor, town council member, and military person in Iraq."
That is Iraq's job.
Mark Bahner | October 4, 2007, 11:30pm | #
"In return for this, the Iraqi government must amend its Constitution to provide for equal distribution of 80% of the net revenues (revenues minus costs) from oil and natural gas, to each adult in Iraq."
This is Socialism.I think you need to recheck your dictionary. It's not even close to socialism.
Right now, the government gets all the money, and decides how to spend it. As the Golden Rule states, "They who have the gold make the rules."
My plan takes the power and rule-making from the government and gives it to The People.
What right do you have to tell Iraq's government what to do with its Constitution?Once again, they who have the gold make the rules.
There are four possibilities:
1) Iraq will break up violently,
2) Iraq will break up peacefully,
3) Iraq will stay together, but violently, and
4) Iraq will stay together peacefully.
Right now, the odds are heavily in favor of #1, with #3 the second most likely. Talk to people in the former Yugoslavia. Then talk to people in the Czech Republic and Slovakia. Ask them all which is better. My guess is that most will say #2, because they know #4 isn't possible.
"The U.S. should pay the salary, for the next three years, of every policeperson, judge, mayor, town council member, and military person in Iraq."
That is Iraq's job.Yes...and isn't that working out spectacularly?
Look, we can either leave Iraq as a basket case, or we can stay for decades and maybe leave Iraq a decent country, or we can draw down significantly right now, while still doing something that has a chance of working.
Are you proposing the "leave Iraq a basket case" option?
Kareemabdulthecool | October 4, 2007, 11:44pm | #
I long for the good old days when it was a cool thing for top black athletes to take Muslim names. How times have changed!Suppose I am an Iraqi legislator, and I would like to propose in the Iraqi Parliament that the U.S. be divided into three separate countries. From CA to the Rockies will be a country called Libertarius; a libertarian state where anything goes; legal drugs, private schools, the works. The mid part of the country is the United States of Bush; no gays, fiscal conservatism exept for huge farm subsidies, and everyone can have an illegal Mexican on their ranch and keep 'em off the books. The Eastern part of the Country will be called Hillaryland; everything is free, paid for by the State.
I plan to send an army of 200,000 Muslims equipped with the latest Russian military hardward to enforce my plan.
Kingkull | October 5, 2007, 1:12pm | #
Dear John Rauch:Ummm.
1) John Biden didn't even know whether the Sunnis or the Shiites were on Sadaam's shit list, the last time he was asked about it.
2) Iraqis overwhelmingly do NOT want to partition, loosely or otherwise. So... in addition to all the other stuff they disagree on, we should add another? Good lord.
3) Not to be a libertarian jerk, but please name one smart thing Joe Biden has ever said (I mean, that attests an understanding of free market economics and / or basic practical, winning strategems).
In the comments Mark Bahner has posted in a very simple way some possible scenarios for Iraq. He is absolutely one of the few. I applaud him. No one in the MSM or politics is having a discussion like that, which is really what it is all about.
And if you ask the Iraqis, and the guys on the ground, they are now placing the highest percentage on number 4. All it took, after 4 long years, was to actually OCCUPY the place (instead of policing it during the day and going home to the green zone at night), which is what the surge really does.