Licensed To Ill

Writes the Murdoch Muckraker Wall Street Journal (sorry, subscribers only):

Butchers, bakers and candlestick makers should enjoy their freedom while it lasts. These lucky professions have so far managed to stay off the list of livelihoods that now require a license to practice in any number of states. Taxidermists, massage therapists and interior decorators aren't so fortunate: They're among the professionals who must have their skills validated by the government.

Overall, the level of licensing regulation in the workplace is rising precipitously, with more than 20% of the workforce now required to get a permit to do their jobs -- up from 4.5% in the 1950s. This is the alarming finding of a new study by Adam Summers for the Reason Foundation. These requirements are essentially barriers to business entry and job creation, and Mr. Summers notes that they have become a greater obstacle to employment than minimum wage laws and labor unions.

Read the whole report, Occupational Licensing: Ranking the States and Exploring the Alternatives, by Reason Foundation policy analyst Adam B. Summers.

Update: Find your state ranking and more nauseating information here.

Comments

Cracker's Boy | September 10, 2007, 11:56am | #

Wouldn't it be nice if there was a "License to run for Office", at the city, county, state and Federal levels? With real requirments! Maybe an IQ test, and a background check.

CB

Warren | September 10, 2007, 11:57am | #

The licensing of hair stylists, interior decorators, florists and the like, is flagrant naked corruption. It depresses me how just about everybody shrugs their shoulders at it. Just another thing the government does. You have to get a license, that's just the way it is.

Someone buy me a drink.

Lost_In_Translation | September 10, 2007, 11:58am | #

I understand taxidermists (raw animal handling)and message therapists (sort of a medicine related field like chiropractors), but interior decorators?????

Lost_In_Translation | September 10, 2007, 11:59am | #

Warren,

As long as you don't make me serve it to you, as that requires a bartending license.

dhex | September 10, 2007, 12:02pm | #

but interior decorators?????

shitty color combinations can make you ill.

Dan T. | September 10, 2007, 12:02pm | #

Isn't it usually the case that anybody who wants to start a business has to obtain a license?

While I agree that licensing such professions as interior decorator are a little silly, I'm not sure that it's "alarming".

deron | September 10, 2007, 12:03pm | #

Taxidermists, massage therapists and interior decorators aren't so fortunate: They're among the professionals who must have their skills validated by the government.

You should revise this to "Would-be taxidermists, etc....."

It's not a matter of the government imposing the licenses it's a matter of these groups seeking the government's involvment to create entry barriers, which I think the study points out.

As with education hurdles, licensing is a barrier to future generations and yet another barrier to future entrepreneurship as well as a boom to the financing industry.

Episiarch | September 10, 2007, 12:09pm | #

Licensing is mostly a scam to artificially increase the demand for licensees by limiting supply.

damaged justice | September 10, 2007, 12:10pm | #

A 'license' is permission to do something you would not otherwise have a right to do.

Among our inalienable rights is the right to exchange our labor for substance.

Who owns you?

Andrew G | September 10, 2007, 12:10pm | #

I thought it was interior designers, not interior decorators who had to be licensed. Two different professions.

J sub D | September 10, 2007, 12:14pm | #

Laugh if you must, but when I lived in Maryland I was greatly comforted that the state licensed fortune tellers. I wonder what the requirements are and are chinese take-out places covered or exempt? Enquiring minds want to know!

Michael Pack | September 10, 2007, 12:17pm | #

As a barber in West Virgina now running a SINGLE CHAIR SHOP I need 5 licenses.Occupancey permit,state buisness,city buisness,Master barber and shop managing license.

Dan T. | September 10, 2007, 12:20pm | #

Among our inalienable rights is the right to exchange our labor for substance.

I don't know if it's quite that simple. Someone who was not a doctor performing the labor of surgery on someone could end up harming them quite a bit.

It's a legitimate function of government to regulate commerece and I think it makes sense to require a license of certain professions where there is a high amount of risk involved or specialized training is needed.

Michael Pack | September 10, 2007, 12:21pm | #

Oh,by the way,a WV barber pays 30$,a attorney 5$,and doesn't need a managing license.

Travis | September 10, 2007, 12:27pm | #

Would you want an unlicensed/unqualifed electrican wiring your house ?

Would you want an unlicensed/unqualified engineer designing your bridge ?

Michael Pack | September 10, 2007, 12:28pm | #

I just did the math.It takes me one day's income to pay the state fees and an attorney about 10 minutes.

J sub D | September 10, 2007, 12:31pm | #

It's a legitimate function of government to regulate commerece and I think it makes sense to require a license of certain professions where there is a high amount of risk involved or specialized training is needed.

Like barbers, cosmetologists, and funeral directors.

Dan T. - We know public school teachers are required to be licensed and look, they're all competent and professional let's just go with licensed.

Lost_In_Translation | September 10, 2007, 12:31pm | #

Travis,

Are you being sarcastic? I don't know what a licensed engineer is, as a professional engineer is not "licensed", but "degreed"

Legate Damar | September 10, 2007, 12:37pm | #

There is such a thing as a licensed engineer. It's a "Professional Engineer" certificate. Very very few engineers have such a document, but their signature/stamp is required for a handful of documents. As a process engineer (I design medical equipment), I would never ever need such a licensure, but if I were instead a mechanical engineer involved with new construction, it might be beneficial to have.

Russ 2000 | September 10, 2007, 12:38pm | #

LIT,

quick link for ya

http://www.heimer.com/pe/index.html

jimmydageek | September 10, 2007, 12:39pm | #

Not sure how it is where you live, LIT, but having construction prints approved by the State of Florida requires the seal of a Florida LICENSED engineer or architect.

Reinmoose | September 10, 2007, 12:46pm | #

Wow, I'm just amazed at how low NY is ranked on that list. I would have thought... top 5?

Episiarch | September 10, 2007, 12:47pm | #

Wow, I'm just amazed at how low NY is ranked on that list. I would have thought... top 5?

Totally, I thought the same thing. And then there's "Live Free or Die" New Hampshire at #4.

Lost_In_Translation | September 10, 2007, 12:50pm | #

Ok,

but becoming a PE doesn't License you, it just gives you the needed degree to be considered for licensing. Most engineers are not licensed.

wsdave | September 10, 2007, 12:56pm | #

HOORAY!!

Washington State actually showed up (fairly) favorably in Reason. What a pleasant change...

wsdave | September 10, 2007, 1:00pm | #

Travis,
"Would you want an unlicensed/unqualifed electrican wiring your house ?"

I wire my own house, and I'm not an electrician. My state requires that I have an electrician sign off on the work, but not being licensed CERTAINLY doesn't make me unqualified to do the work.

wsdave | September 10, 2007, 1:03pm | #

J sub D,
"Like barbers, cosmetologists, and funeral directors."

And don't forget that riskiest of all professions, Interior Designer.

I cry at night just thinking of all those poor victims of unlicensed designers...

Won't someone please think of the children's bedrooms?

J sub D | September 10, 2007, 1:04pm | #

I wire my own house, and I'm not an electrician. My state requires that I have an electrician sign off on the work, but not being licensed CERTAINLY doesn't make me unqualified to do the work.

No shit. Ther must be one or two how to books on electrical wiring out there. You just have to look really hard.

Isaac Bartram | September 10, 2007, 1:16pm | #

Would you want an unlicensed/unqualified engineer designing your bridge ?

No, I wouldn't.

Therefore, if I wanted a bridge designed I would check into the qualifications of any person I was considering hiring to do it.

I would do this whether the candidate was licensed or not.

Likewise, if I had a trophy deer head I wanted mounted I would as locals for recommendations on taxidermists. I would then ask several to show me samples of their work. Then I would select one to handle my prize.

Isaac Bartram | September 10, 2007, 1:24pm | #

And while I would certainly ask my engineering candidates what schools they went to, I would not do the same for taxidermy candidates.

gorgonzola's foil | September 10, 2007, 1:28pm | #

There's still "acupuncturist" available: a good friend of mine is a veterinarian, and at a dinner party this weekend, told us that to be a veterinary acupuncturist (her practice is paying for her to learn this, and I imagine it will help the business a lot), you must be a licenced DVM and certified veterinary acupuncturist (CVA). There are no certification or license requirements, at least in PA, to be a human acupuncturist.

SIV | September 10, 2007, 1:33pm | #

Y'all need to study up on this "libertarian" thing a bit more.I'd recommend starting with the part about opposing State mandated professional licensure for nearly everything.

highnumber | September 10, 2007, 1:34pm | #

I understand taxidermists (raw animal handling)...

Should I have got a license to grill that flank steak last night?

x,y | September 10, 2007, 1:41pm | #

I understand taxidermists (raw animal handling)and message therapists (sort of a medicine related field like chiropractors) ...

Huh? WTF.

Isaac Bartram | September 10, 2007, 1:44pm | #

All fifty states require those practising engineering to be licesensed. "Practising engineering" is defined by law in each state and it usually means "doing business in a discipline of engieering" as opposed to be emplyed in engineering. Not all people "calling" themselves "engineers" are required to be licensed.

All state require that candidates for licensure have a four year degree from an accredited university and four years of relevant work experience. Work experience time is reduced by postgraduate work.

Candidates must then pass an exam which test their knowledge of engineering principles and practice in the discipline of their choice.

I'm certain that there are other ways to protect the public from incompetent engineering but at least passing the engineer's exam does in fact demonstrate a level of competence.

To the extent that entrance to the learned professions is restricted is that most states issue a fixed number of licenses each year rather than granting them to anyone who gets a passing grade.

dead_elvis | September 10, 2007, 1:50pm | #

Heh, California's at the top, but you know what happens, when something is too onerous people just go around it. Tons of unlicensed work goes on around here.

Someone Who Doesn't Want to Lose His Job | September 10, 2007, 1:53pm | #

raw animal handling

Santorum was right!

Brandybuck | September 10, 2007, 1:54pm | #

It's a legitimate function of government to regulate commerece...

Well I don't! There are legitimate functions of government, but regulating the exchange of little green pieces of paper is not one of them.

...and I think it makes sense to require a license of certain professions where there is a high amount of risk involved or specialized training is needed.

If by "high degree of risk", you mean activities that can expose unwilling individuals to danger, then I agree. I am willing to compromise with the state on requiring credentials for explosive manufacturers and similar professions. But Barbers? Interior designers? I must disagree with your second point about specialized training however.

Lost_In_Translation | September 10, 2007, 1:55pm | #

highnumber,

I don't know taxidermy, but there could be health related reasons for ensuring consistancy in stuffing dead animals, such as potential for disease spreading, etc. Your steak is supposed to meet certain standards and not contain mad cow disease or other disorders before it gets to you. I'm not saying I agree with these licenses, but I can wrap my mind around how someone, somewhere came up with a possible jusfication.

Lost_In_Translation | September 10, 2007, 1:58pm | #

Isaac,

What you're saying might be true about the public sector, but its not even close for the private sector.

Travis | September 10, 2007, 2:00pm | #

I think licensing is used by certain industries to control the number of workers in a possible profession, in order to preserve and keep their compenstation at a certain level, usually an inflated.

Dan T. | September 10, 2007, 2:05pm | #

This is one of those classic issues were libertarians will take a good point (some professions that are licensed clearly do not need to be) and stretch it into an absurd one (no professions should be licensed).

Isaac Bartram | September 10, 2007, 2:13pm | #

What you're saying might be true about the public sector, but its not even close for the private sector.

Lost_In_Translation,

I'm not exactly sure what you're saying here.

I repeat

All fifty states require those practising engineering to be licesensed. "Practising engineering" is defined by law in each state and it usually means "doing business in a discipline of engieering" as opposed to be emplyed in engineering. Not all people "calling" themselves "engineers" are required to be licensed.

Note carefully the second and the last sentences.

All fifty states require engineers to be licensed. Definitions of engineering may vary from state to state. But the disciplines covered include Civil, Mechanical and Electrical Engineering at a minimun. Florida has a separate license for Structural Engineers while othe states include it under Civil. There are serious penalties for practising engineering without a license in all fifty states.

It is irrelevant whether you are working in the public or private sector.

There are many people who call themselves engineers. Audio and computer engineering come to mind. Although these fields require a lot of training an experience they have so far passed under the radar of the regulators.

Isaac Bartram | September 10, 2007, 2:16pm | #

Dan T.

Both England and France get by without state licensing of professionals. Odd that we can't, isn't it?

Dan T. | September 10, 2007, 2:22pm | #

Dan T.

Both England and France get by without state licensing of professionals. Odd that we can't, isn't it?

Really? Anybody in those countries can practice medicine or law?

I guess you learn something every day.

Lost_In_Translation | September 10, 2007, 2:23pm | #

Isaac,

The two senior engineers that do piping design over public right of ways are not "state licensed", but have never been required to be licensed, so what you're saying makes no sense unless its just applicable for state employees.

wsdave | September 10, 2007, 2:28pm | #

Dan T.,
"This is one of those classic issues were libertarians will take a good point (some professions that are licensed clearly do not need to be) and stretch it into an absurd one (no professions should be licensed)."

As opposed to Republicrats who will take a "good point" (some professions should be licensed) and stretch it into the idea that EVERY profession needs to be regulated.

carrick | September 10, 2007, 2:28pm | #

Would you want an unlicensed/unqualifed electrican wiring your house ?

Would you want an unlicensed/unqualified engineer designing your bridge ?

A license is not a guarentee of qualifications.

~A | September 10, 2007, 2:29pm | #

Isaac

Most practicing engineers are not PEs. In fact, unless you are a civil engineer, obtaining your PE tends to hurt career opportunities, as it makes you overqualified for the majority of engineering positions. The PE certification is simply not necessary for most engineering work.

I'm an ME (BSME), but not a licensed PE. I am legally allowed to call myself an engineer in all 50 states. I do not intend to get my PE, as I can pay a licensed PE to sign off on my work should I ever need to.(Usually its only government work that requires a PE cert.)

Travis | September 10, 2007, 2:30pm | #

My understanding is that an Engineer only need be licensed to stamp/sign drawings. Once the Engineer stamps/sign drawings, spec's, report's, etc they now become legal documents/instruments. These engineers have the distinction of calling themselves PE's or Professional engineers. PE's sign a document that states "this drawing, report or specification was prepared by me or under my direct supervision, and I am a duly licensed engineer of the state of (insert your state) However many engineers practice engineering all day as staff engineers, designing things, making calcs, they are not allowed by law to stamp/sign drawings.

To sign/stamp drawings, at least in my state, you have to have graduated from an accredited engineering school, have been employed for atleast for years, and pass the PE exam, to get your license.

Meanwhile, they make us jump through hoops | September 10, 2007, 2:34pm | #

There are no certification or license requirements, at least in PA, to be a human acupuncturist.

Isaac Bartram | September 10, 2007, 2:43pm | #

Lost_In_Translation

Note again: not all people calling themselves engineers are required to be licensed.

By whom are these two engineers employed?

And as for exemptions, Florida specifically exempts employees of the Federal goverment from its state licensing requirements.

So it's actually kind of the reverse of "just applicable for state employees."

Keep in mind, we are not speaking of employee engineers.

The licensing laws apply to people hiring themselves out to the general public as engineers. Not those that are employees of engineering and construction firms. No license is required to be an employee.

So Joe Doakes P.E. can take a job with Donald Trump to do the structural design for the mile high Trump Tower in Orlando. Joe Doakes can hire me and anyone else to sit in his office and do engineering calculations for the structural design of the Trump Tower. Joe Doakes P.E. is wholly responsible for the accuracy of those calculations, so he will make sure all of his employees are qualified and trustworthy. One of the ways to do this is to hire licensed engineers. The screening is already done. I cannot hire myself directly out to the Donald to design the Trump Tower because I do not have an engineering license.

Isaac Bartram | September 10, 2007, 2:59pm | #

~A

I do not intend to get my PE, as I can pay a licensed PE to sign off on my work should I ever need to.(Usually its only government work that requires a PE cert.)

You might want to check the legality of that if you move to another state.

You most certainly cannot "pay a licensed PE to sign off on [your] work" in Florida. If you are hiring yourself out as an engineer in Florida you need to be a PE.

Again there are classes of work that are exempt but they are rare.

I work in Civil and I probably make half of what my licensed peers make. I am a chronic underacheiver though so it suits me.

My understanding is that an Engineer only need be licensed to stamp/sign drawings. Once the Engineer stamps/sign drawings, spec's, report's, etc they now become legal documents/instruments.

No PE in his right mind would sign a set of plans that he had not checked. Some states have serious penalties for engineers who do so.

Isaac Bartram | September 10, 2007, 3:21pm | #

Anybody in those countries can practice medicine or law?

No!

Claiming qualifications you do not have can result in criminal prosecution for fraud. Hence, only those who are qualified can practice.

Actually you have picked two professions that are regulated.

Barristers are officers of the court and hence entry to the profession is controlled by the courts. Some regulations have been formalized by statute. Solicitors are slightly less regulated.

Doctors and dentists are regulated by professional associations. It is difficult, if not impossible, to practice if you are not a member of one. Additionally the NHS regulates its doctors who represent most MDs in England.

Engineers can put out a shingle and state their qualifications. Tort liability is strict and absolute. It is unlikely that an engineer without insurance would get many jobs. Most engineers also join the Institute representing their profession. It is not required but most clients with a civil design project will not hire an engineer who is not a member of the Institute of Civil Engineers. Most will probably want their engineer to be a Fellow rather than just a regular member too.

mechanical engineer | September 10, 2007, 3:29pm | #

Institute of Civil Engineers

Builders of targets

Mike Laursen | September 10, 2007, 3:35pm | #

Isn't it usually the case that anybody who wants to start a business has to obtain a license?

Business licenses are a different animal from professional licenses. Business licenses are usually issued by a municipal government (in California, at least) to anybody who pays the fee.

~A | September 10, 2007, 3:36pm | #

Isaac,

Maybe the laws in FL are different, but here is an example for you:

My husband is an MSME, but not a PE. He is an independent engineering contractor. Often, a company will hire him for half the rate of a PE to do the design work. My husband does the analysis, and produces the relevant documentation, calculations, drawings, etc. Then, the company that hired him will pay a PE to evaluate and sign off on the work my husband produced, thus saving the cost of paying the PE to do the actual work. This is common practice. That's what I meant by "pay a PE to sign off on the work." That's what most PEs do, is sign off on plans, because a PEs stamp is required for plans to be approved by the state (or federal) government. PEs often don't do any actual engineering.

However, civil engineering works very differently than the other disciplines,and like a said before, to do anything interesting in civil engineering (if that's even possible), you do pretty much have to be a PE.

Sorry for the threadjack everyone.

Mike Laursen | September 10, 2007, 3:37pm | #

Someone who was not a doctor performing the labor of surgery on someone could end up harming them quite a bit.

As could a licensed surgeon.

Lamar | September 10, 2007, 3:37pm | #

It's all fun and games until you've been a victim of taxidermy gone awry.

Steve S. | September 10, 2007, 3:37pm | #

I am a licensed astrologer in the city where I work (as a journalist). I had to take a 20-question true/false exam and do a natal chart for a license bureau employee chosen at random.
I bought Astrology for Idiots, read it overnight, and aced my test. Woohoo!
(After I wrote about my experience, the city stopped licensing astrologers. But I still proudly proclaim my status.)
Thanks to the Universal Life Church, I'm also a register minister in my state. I now pronounce you all husbands and wives.

Isaac Bartram | September 10, 2007, 3:43pm | #

Business licenses are usually issued by a municipal government (in California, at least) to anybody who pays the fee.

And to be fair most local governments are pretty up front about business licenses being nothing but a tax scheme.

The State on the other hand pretends that professional licenses is about "protecting the public.

These at least has some merit when we are talking about doctors and engineers.

I think they're stretching it when they extend it to hairbraiding and dog grooming.

Isaac Bartram | September 10, 2007, 4:14pm | #

Steve S.

I believe Fortune Tellers are licensed in Florida.

As far as I know they are not covered by the Department of Business and Professional Regulation.

But IIANM there is a state law that requires counties to license them. This is different from occupational licenses which are entirely at the discretion of local government.

wsdave | September 10, 2007, 4:18pm | #

"I am a licensed astrologer in the city where I work (as a journalist). I had to take a 20-question true/false exam and do a natal chart for a license bureau employee chosen at random.
I bought Astrology for Idiots, read it overnight, and aced my test. Woohoo!
(After I wrote about my experience, the city stopped licensing astrologers. But I still proudly proclaim my status.)"

For my money, Steve S. wins the thread.

prolefeed | September 10, 2007, 4:42pm | #

I don't know if it's quite that simple. Someone who was not a doctor performing the labor of surgery on someone could end up harming them quite a bit.

And then they'd be sued, and word would get around, and they'd soon be broke and out of business.

Oh, wait, markets can't self-police -- we need politicians to do that for us.

As was pointed out by several people above, the biggest pressure for regulation is from people already in the business seeking to shut out potential competitors. I've seen way too many hearings in our state legislature where almost all the testimony in favor of licensing comes from people already doing the work, and saying that unqualified people can't possibly do a good job of massaging backs, etc.

Lost_In_Translation | September 10, 2007, 4:42pm | #

I think by the confusion we've established that is licensing of engineers, we've established the ludacrousy of state licensing. You can design and build things as an unlicensed engineer, but in legal documents, having a licensed engineer sign off on documents tranfers liability from the business to the engineer, but the business is not going to get in trouble just because something was designed by an unlicensed engineer and as long as the engineer doesn't pass himself off as possessing a certification that he doesn't have, he will not get in trouble for designing as an unlicensed engineer.

So in reality, the licensing process for engineers is much different than licensing of other professions, which can get in trouble for practicing their professions without a license, which is not the case in engineering.

Lost_In_Translation | September 10, 2007, 4:46pm | #

Furthermore, in a perfect world, licensing would merely be another gurantee of quality, not a mandatory requirement for practice.

However, in some professions where speed is of the essence, it is handy to know that the anyone who calls themselves a professional of that profession has met certain qualifications without having to review lots of documentation. Law and Medicine fall into this, but that's about it. All others should be optional licensees.

~A | September 10, 2007, 5:06pm | #

LIT

exactly. that's the important distinction I wanted to make. thanks:)

SIV | September 10, 2007, 5:16pm | #

Lost,

Why have Government credentials for docs and shysters?

A non-State "professionally licensed" Doctor or lawyer could display a credential certifying himself as an MD or a member of the bar.
You would need no further documentation.

That should not prevent those with other credentials-or none-from offering services and consumers from choosing to contract for such.

It is just as wrong to require licenses for those professions as it is for hair-braiders and decorators.

Lost_In_Translation | September 10, 2007, 5:21pm | #

SIV,

You're probably right, but I was considering a situation where checking a certification of qualification might not be the best use of time (ie, just been shot, in jail and need quick bail)

Isaac Bartram | September 10, 2007, 5:26pm | #

Lost_In_Translation

None of what you wrote at 4:42pm has anything to do with what I wrote. I'm not sure what you cannot understand.

You can design and build things as an unlicensed engineer, - Yes as long as you are employed by a licensed engineer.

...but in legal documents, having a licensed engineer sign off on documents tranfers liability from the business to the engineer,... - signed plans are not just "legal documents" and businesses can be held liable even when they hire licensed engineers.

...but the business is not going to get in trouble just because something was designed by an unlicensed engineer and as long as the engineer doesn't pass himself off as possessing a certification that he doesn't have, he will not get in trouble for designing as an unlicensed engineer. - in this case the business could face serious liablility and the engineer would definitely be charged with practising engineering without a license.

I repeat: You cannot legally hire yourself out to the general public (and businesses that are not themselves licensed as engineers are part of the public for this purpose) as an engineer in any state unless what you do is not defined as engineering under the laws of that state.

You really should read your state's laws on registration. Practising engineering without a license is a serious offense in all fifty states (it shouldn't be but it is). Keep in mind that practising engineering is something that is defined in the laws of the fifty states. Some things are exempt. Especially fields like petroleum and mining that have a lot of federal oversight. In that case federal regulation could easily trump state law.

Furthermore, in a perfect world, licensing would merely be another gurantee of quality, not a mandatory requirement for practice.

I agree completely. Nothing I have written should be taken as agreement with state licensing. Read my comments on the English system above for example.

Its combination of liability insurance and certification by associations or institutes has worked quite well.

Lost_In_Translation | September 10, 2007, 5:36pm | #

Isaac,

I work in a large corporation as a mechanical engineer and if what you're saying is all true, then the company is breaking the rules all the time, because none of the engineering I do nor any of engineering done where I work is reviewed and signed off by a professional engineer. Its simply taken as my work and while I am liable for any mistakes I make, I have not been warned that I could be punished for simply doing and implementing the engineer without a license. I think the laws are more vaguely written and possess more exeptions than you've listed because otherwise I'm sure engineering firms would be more strict on this sort of thing.

Lost_In_Translation | September 10, 2007, 5:47pm | #

Applicable exeptions for me:

Texas law:
"§ 1001.055. Mechanical, Electrical, or Other Equipment
(a) A person is exempt from the licensing requirements of this chapter if the person is installing, operating, repairing, or servicing a
locomotive or stationary engine, steam boiler, diesel engine, internal combustion engine, refrigeration compressor or system, hoisting
engine, electrical engine, air conditioning equipment or system, or mechanical, electrical, electronic, or communications equipment or
apparatus."

"§
1001.057. Employee of Private Corporation or Business Entity
(a) This chapter shall not be construed to apply to the activities of a private corporation or other business entity, or the activities of the fulltime
employees or other personnel under the direct supervision and control of the business entity, on or in connection with:
(1) reasonable modifications to existing buildings, facilities, or other fixtures to real property not accessible to the general public
and which are owned, leased, or otherwise occupied by the entity; or
(2) activities related only to the research, development, design, fabrication, production, assembly, integration, or service of
products manufactured by the entity.
(b) A person who claims an exemption under this section and who is determined to have directly or indirectly represented the person as
legally qualified to engage in the practice of engineering or who is determined to have violated Section 1001.301 may not claim an
exemption until the 10th anniversary of the date the person made that representation.
(c) This exemption does not prohibit:
(1) a licensed professional engineer who intends to incorporate manufactured products into a fixed work, system, or facility that
is being designed by the licensee on public property or the property of others from requiring the manufacturer to have plans or
specifications signed and sealed by a licensed professional engineer; or
(2) the Board from requiring, by rule, that certain manufactured products delivered to or used by the public must be designed and
sealed by a licensed professional engineer, if necessary to protect the public health, safety, and welfare.
(d) For purposes of this section, “products manufactured by the entity” also includes computer software, firmware, hardware,
semiconductor devices, and the production, exploration, and transportation of oil and gas and related products.

Isaac Bartram | September 10, 2007, 6:11pm | #

Lost

I think the laws are more vaguely written and possess more exeptions than you've listed because otherwise I'm sure engineering firms would be more strict on this sort of thing.

Doesn't "... what you do is not defined as engineering under the laws of that state" pretty much cover that"?

I already said that the laws "possess more exeptions" and I have not even tried to list all of the execptions just a couple that I know of.

From what I can tell you are not practising engineering without a license. But that is because what you do is not "practising engineering" as defined by the statutes mandating licensing. Can you see the distiction?

But then what would I know, I'm not a lawyer. I'm an unlicensed Civil engineer who works for a medium-sized consulting firm. The firm has to have a PE sign and seal every set of plans and specs we deliver to a client whether public or private.

Notice how most of the exceptions boil down to the "not accessible to the general public" phrase in (1).

By the way many of the activities under § 1001.055 don't require a PE in Florida either. Some do require someone with another kind of license. EG, Electrician or HVAC or refrigeration technician.

Aresen | September 10, 2007, 6:12pm | #

Candlestick makers are unlicensed?

How will we be protected from candle meltdowns? I bet there are scores, if not hundreds, of houses that burn down from improper candles every year.

M | September 10, 2007, 6:43pm | #

Won't someone please think of the wicks!

ChrisO | September 11, 2007, 1:08pm | #

Largely an evolution of the guild system. The state coffers benefited from that, just as they do from modern licensure.

What amuses me is the legalistic notion that a professional won't commit a major fuckup simply because they are licensed.