New at Reason
Cathy Young tries to understand the recent outbreak of anti-gay violence in Russia.
Comments to "New at Reason":
mk | June 8, 2007, 11:59am | #
There seems to be quite a bit of violence going on in Russia over all sorts of issues as well as a fair amount of violence that is occurring just for the hell of it. Youtube is lousy with videos of Russian psychopaths attacking immigrants (actually Russians, but from other parts of Russia).Meanwhile, washed-up douchebags like David Duke have found a second life giving lectures in the former Soviet Union and their mafia makes the Sopranos look like the boyscouts.
It's all pretty sad.
If they had a parade without applying for permission, then it's no surprise the police had to arrest them. The same thing would have happened in any city over here. They flagrantly broke the law.
Jennifer | June 8, 2007, 12:18pm | #
The country's in sad shape, and unhappy people always look for scapegoats. Slightly off-topic: I remember reading somewhere (I think in the book The Lucifer Principle) that in the pre-civil rights South, there was a correlation between cotton prices and lynchings: the lower the price for cotton, the higher the number of lynchings. The theory is that unhappy, broke farmers were more likely than happy, propserous ones to relieve their frustrations by beating someone who can't beat back.Looks like all of Russia is turning into the alcoholic who gets in trouble at work but can't punch his boss, so he goes home and beats his wife instead.
Steve | June 8, 2007, 12:24pm | #
Russian mobs of heterosexuals attack Russian mobs of homosexuals for the same reason the Russian populace isn't really aware of Putin's creeping authoritarianism and for the same reason Kruschev was so unpredictable. Every Russian adult male is dead drunk every second of the day.I've been to Ireland and I've been to Russia. The Irish seem like a nation under voluntary prohibition in comparison to the Russians.
I'm not moralizing, just confused how a nation of individuals expects to be productive or rational when everyone finishes their first bottle of vodka at 1PM.
Bill Pope | June 8, 2007, 12:37pm | #
Cathy, you're behind the times in regard to gay rights in Cuba. The government there is weighing either the creation of civil unions or outright legalization of same-sex marriage. Please don't let your own writing be encumbered by out-of-date prejudices as well.steveintheknow | June 8, 2007, 1:35pm | #
I hate to agree with Bill, well in part I agree, but this sentence is pretty weak.Castro's Cuba has been notorious for its persecution of gays.Even if what Bill says about Cuba's SSM proposal (do dictators propose things?) isn’t true, you still have to give up more then a one-liner with no references, evidence, examples, or, I don’t know, something.
Unless I am just one of the few who had no knowledge of Cuba’s historical persecution of homosexuals, a one-sentence statement seems a little lacking.
Rhywun | June 8, 2007, 1:38pm | #
Can persecution of gays get you asylum in the US? Granted, your mortal life usually isn't in danger if you just shut up marry a woman, but....steveintheknow | June 8, 2007, 1:44pm | #
-RhywunDoh!
[hand slaps forehead]
Whatever indie-cred I still had left is suddenly gone. :)
Bill Pope | June 8, 2007, 2:01pm | #
Steve- Actually, the story about the pending change in Cuba appeared in USA Today within the last couple of months.Bill Pope | June 8, 2007, 2:03pm | #
Further reference:http://www.usatoday.com/news/opinion/editorials/2007-02-26-opcom_x.htm
Warren | June 8, 2007, 2:12pm | #
Cathy,Very good article. Well done. I'm now 98% confident that you are gay. That doesn't change anything you've written, but it colors quite a bit of it. As far as I can tell, you haven't made any public declarations of your sexuality. I think that's a mistake. It makes it seem as though you are hiding it, or possibly trying to pass as straight.
My fiancee, who grew up in the former Soviet Union, is the most gentle, generous, sweet-tempered person you could ever hope to meet. But when it comes to gay folks, she can say things very similar to what the emailer said in Cathy's article. I've tried to persuade her otherwise, but she'll reply that she's entitled to her own opinion (can't really disagree there). Virtually all of the former Soviet immigrants I know who've come here in the last ten years have the same attitude, but some who've been here longer (like Cathy Young) are more tolerant. So I'm hoping she'll lighten up over the years--at least before we find out that one of our (hypothetical future) kids is gay!
Mike | June 8, 2007, 2:18pm | #
Funny how Cathy seems to want to blame this issue mostly on athiesm, and gives authoritarianism a free pass. I think this is all to do with central authoritarian always blaming its problems on "the other". The other, as other have noticed, can be gays, non-whites, "foriegners" and Jews. It was one of the ways the Communist regime maintained control - it wasn't the Communist government or system that was the problem, it was {insert your choice of 'other' here}. They did this for 70 years, its no wonder these prejudices are come out of the wood work now.Nothing to do with it being "atheist".
steveintheknow | June 8, 2007, 2:21pm | #
BillThat’s cool, I wasn’t questioning your claim. In fact I was pretty sure it was true, even though I had no knowledge myself.
Thanks for the articles.
Paglia | June 8, 2007, 2:23pm | #
"Looks like all of Russia is turning into the alcoholic who gets in trouble at work but can't punch his boss, so he goes home and beats his wife instead."My! Quite the feminist stereotype!
Jen | June 8, 2007, 2:27pm | #
"http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0247196/"Thanks you so much. Full frontal male nudity is far to scarce.
Warren, are you a complete jerk, or do you just enjoy acting like one in chat-room postings?
Warren | June 8, 2007, 2:54pm | #
Funny how Cathy seems to want to blame this issue mostly on athiesm, and gives authoritarianism a free pass.WHAT WHAT WHAAAAT?
Mike, what the fuck are you talking about.
jbd,
I must conclude that I am a complete jerk. I was really trying not to be this time.
LarryA | June 8, 2007, 3:12pm | #
a high-level official in charge of children's rights, Ewa Sowinska, followed in the footsteps of the late Rev. Jerry Falwell by expressing concern about the sexuality of purse-carrying purple Teletubby Tinky Winky and its possible effects on young viewers.Birds of a feather...
If they had a parade without applying for permission, then it's no surprise the police had to arrest them. The same thing would have happened in any city over here. They flagrantly broke the law.
RTA: On May 27, the day of the planned parade, a group of fewer than 100 Russian activists, accompanied by several European parliamentarians and other foreign supporters such as British journalist Peter Tatchell and pop singer Richard Fairbass, rallied to present Luzhkov with a petition asking for the ban to be lifted.
A rally to petition that the ban be lifted is not “they had a parade without applying for permission.”
Very good article. Well done. I'm now 98% confident that you are gay.
Why? Because you think only gays write articles about gays? Not. Or because only gays can write well-done articles? Not.
Funny how Cathy seems to want to blame this issue mostly on atheism, and gives authoritarianism a free pass.
Not. The main point she made was that past gay bashing can’t be blamed on radical religious influence. The last two paragraphs of her article are almost all about authoritarianism’s negative influence.
Warren | June 8, 2007, 3:40pm | #
Why? Because you think only gays write articles about gays? Not. Or because only gays can write well-done articles? Not.No, this is based on a hundred little things that have pinged my gaydar over the past few years from Cathy (I confess, it's mostly the hair.) At any rate I think it's relevant when she writes about stuff like this whether she is or isn't gay.
So does that make me a complete jerk? Or is it that I asked directly? Because I think it's the latter and I really think I'm right and the rest of the world is Effed up. Maybe you dissagree, and think an authors sexuality is never of concern to the reader no matter what topic they are writing about. But if it is of interest to the reader, why is it better for him to pass judgment on the author in silence than to speak it aloud?
Jennifer | June 8, 2007, 3:48pm | #
So Warren, if Cathy Young ten years ago wrote an article criticizing the way blacks were treated by the white South African government, would you conclude she's a mulatto trying to "pass"?Not that her being black would change anything she's written, but it would color it a bit, right?
Maybe you disagree, and think an author's ancestry is never of concern to the reader no matter what topic they are writing about. But if it is of interest to the reader, why is it better for him to pass judgment on the author in silence than to speak it aloud?
Jonathan C. Hohensee | June 8, 2007, 3:51pm | #
In Russia, gays beat the homophobes.Other people's orientation is not my business (unless I'm dating them).
Warren | June 8, 2007, 4:35pm | #
Jennifer,Well, if an author regularly writes about topics that touch on the African American community, I would in fact want to know what their connection to that community was.
douglas westerman | June 8, 2007, 4:44pm | #
The article, which was a very good one, tells us more about the average Russian's understanding of liberty and the rule of law,not just their homophobia.A large portion of Americans still think homosexuality is a "sinful abomination" (if they are Christian) or think homosexuality is "creepy", but among those, the vast majority would still favor their right to peaceably demonstrate, as well as practice their lifestyle.
When it comes to the basics of a free society, a lot of Russians still "don't get it."
Big Moe | June 8, 2007, 4:47pm | #
No, this is based on a hundred little things that have pinged my gaydar over the past few years from Cathy (I confess, it's mostly the hair.)So, you have Gaydar. Hmmmm....
Extra stereotypical gay points for the interest in womens' hairstyles.
At any rate I think it's relevant when she writes about stuff like this whether she is or isn't gay.
OK, Warren, what's your sexual orientation? I think it's relevant when you write about stuff like this.
I mean, everyone knows that gays are so shallow and, well, gay, that they're incapable of NPOV.
Redux | June 8, 2007, 4:53pm | #
Great article, Cathy, hairstyle notwithstanding. (grin)It is also likely that the totalitarian suppression of civil society simply froze in place many cultural prejudices that were challenged and reexamined in free societies.
Spot on! Expanding on that, the Orthodox church, which was definitionally a reactionary institution under Soviet rule didn't have to have the same dialogue that western churches have had to address.
Poland is perhaps the most catholic country on earth. 'Nuff said.
Cuba? What you said, plus catholicism, plus spanish machismo.
Warren | June 8, 2007, 5:10pm | #
Big Moe,I thought you'd never ask :) If this wasn't an old thread not getting much traffic I'm sure there would have been a dozen comments chastising you for opening that door. But I'll be kind to other readers and unevasive to you and state that; For what it's worth. To whomever wants to know. I would describe myself as a dominant heterosexual.
drunk pete | June 8, 2007, 5:14pm | #
one thing to remember is that it's not a "latest streak of anti-gay violence." it's a matter of "gay minority" playing by the rules too, and trying to understand what the alleged "majority" feels, which is not always the case. whatever happened at the suppression of the event that was striving to be a gay pride parade was terrible, no doubt about that. but the q is what did the minorities do to be perceived as a force to be reckoned? ever tridr. pete. | June 8, 2007, 5:40pm | #
anyways, on a separate note, what do you guys make of the recent Sexual Majority Parade in moscow?Jennifer | June 8, 2007, 6:13pm | #
if an author regularly writes about topics that touch on the African American community, I would in fact want to know what their connection to that community was.What connection do you think Radley Balko must have with innocent people raided by SWAT teams?
Deus | June 8, 2007, 7:20pm | #
Because of the the article's liberal use of the words "gay" and "pride", all the context-sensitive ads are for gay chatlines.Thanks Google Adsense!
On the other hand Russians seem quite tolerant of Lesbianism, at least if the lesbians are attractive teen-age girls who sing crappy pop songs.
Kay | June 9, 2007, 2:45am | #
Warren, I think you need to seriously consider getting a refund on that gaydar. I personally know Cathy (no, not that personally) and I can tell you with 100% certainty that she is not gay. So there. Does criticizing homophobia automatically determine one's sexual orientation? Should she refrain from writing about certain issues because they don't affect her personally? She's really not all that egotistical. She's also criticized bigotry against Muslims. And we can't forget about that slam against the militant child-free ideologues. Gasp! She's a ten-year-old Muslim lesbian! Quite advanced for her age. Very opinionated, too.Cathy Young | June 9, 2007, 3:20am | #
To paraphrase Ellen: Yup. I'm straight. *G*By the way, I've also criticized male-bashing and have written a lot about divorced fathers' issues. So, in addition to being a 10-year-old Muslim lesbian, it appears that I'm also a man. Or, perhaps, as some have speculated, the wife or girlfriend of a divorced dad (and no, that's not true either). Believe it or not, some of us are actually concerned about fairness and human rights even when it comes to people who are not part of our own demographic.
On a serious note, I think Douglas Westermann has the best point in this thread:
The article, which was a very good one, tells us more about the average Russian's understanding of liberty and the rule of law, not just their homophobia.
dj_of_raleigh | June 9, 2007, 7:17pm | #
A lesson in not letting your identity be known,for who knows what tomorrow will hold?
Imagine Russia regressing back to Stalinism,
or Islam taking over the USA.
The hames are there.
The Mauve Panthers | June 11, 2007, 2:02am | #
It´s not limited to gay people. God forbid. Dissidents, black people, asian people, foreigners, you name it and the Russians have a state-sanctioned group attacking them.Russia: Catch up to the rest of us or we will leave you behind.
Let´s take their tired, poor and huddled masses and then just embargo the shit out of their governments. Putin and his lot have had their chance.
It´s on days like this that I wish the gay community had an equivalent to the Black Panthers.
I'm no fan of Russia, but kudos to them on this issue! If some people have the deviant predilection for intimacy and sexual relations with the same sex - assuming adults only, which is certainly frequently not the case - they should keep it behind closed doors and not pollute society with it. Not all inclinations - such as homosexuality, pedophelia, kleptomania, male promiscuity, etc. - need to be honored.
Ed L | June 12, 2007, 4:10am | #
I liked the article in reporting the situation as observed by Cathy Young.After reading the long list of discussion items, I wondered if many had read the same article I did.
Shouting Thomas | June 12, 2007, 11:29am | #
Why do you refer to objections to homosexuality as "homophobia?" Why do you use the word "bigotry" to describe moral objections to homosexuality?I've lived in San Francisco and New York City for the past 35 years. So, I've lived right in the midst of the two largest gay communities in the U.S.
Everything I've seen and experienced about gay male behavior tells me that the "stereotypes" are 100 percent true. My closest friend is a gay man. Twenty years ago, he had a large circle of friends. My friend is the only surviving member of that circle of friends. The rest are all dead of AIDS.
The AIDS epidemic made it pretty clear to me that traditional religious objections to homosexuality are based on compelling moral and public health concerns. Gay men are a threat to public health. The wild promiscuity of gay male life is not something that bigots made up.
So, really, what are you talking abouit? While I do not support suppression of gays or violence against them, I can't make heads or tails out of this talk about homophobia and bigotry. A sensible society will do what it can to proscribe homosexuality. This is just common sense.
Ken | June 14, 2007, 5:53pm | #
I can understand how any culture in which men traditionally sit around drinking in bath houses might be just a wee bit sensitive about any suggestion of tolerance for homosexuals. Cheap shots aside, there seems to be a widely pervasive spirit of xenophobia in Russia and many parts of eastern Europe when one considers attitudes towards homosexuality, Jews, and other "outsider" groups.