Israeli airstrike on the town of Qana kills 54 people, 37 of them children. Not quite the carnage of the Israeli artillery barrage on Qana which killed 106 in 1996. Many observers do not see this as progress.
Maybe because it is not.
Qana. Again.
Comments to "Qana. Again.":
Herrick and His Balls | July 30, 2006, 5:45pm | #
I've always hated pro-Israel folk who say that America should support Israel because they're somehow morally superior to their enemies, which they aren't. I'm not necessarily trying to argue moral equivalence here, except in the sense that dog shit is the moral equivalent of hog shit.There may be strategic reasons to stick with Israel, but don't give me crap how their apartheid state is somehow more moral or ethical.
happyjuggler0 | July 30, 2006, 6:09pm | #
Herrick,I gather you are saying either:
1) Israel deliberately targeted civilians in Qana
or
2) Hezbollah isn't deliberately targeting Israeli civilians when they've fired ~4000 rockets on Israeli towns and cities the past few weeks.
Otherwise it seems absurd to claim that Israel and Hezbollah are moral equivalents.
Don Coyote | July 30, 2006, 6:11pm | #
Israel is generally opposed, because of security reasons, to releasing information concerning any of its operations. Because of the circumstances they should release the reasons for the target in Qana.The IDF has stated that over 150 rockets per day were fired from the village and the citizens were repeatedly told to leave.
Hizballah continues to fire multi-rocket launchers from occupied villages knowing Israel will respond. I suppose Lebanese civiians are just considered martyrs that gave their lives for the psychological campaign. They just don't know it.
If you believe that an immediate ceasefire in lebanon is the most important thing in the worldd, then the Qana incident is very good indeed. By cynically using civillians as human shields, Hizbullah has been desperately to get as many lebanese killed as possible, those causing the so called international community to step in and save them. Goodd job guys, thanks for showing us that terrorism pays.
kevrob | July 30, 2006, 6:16pm | #
I suppose Lebanese civiians are just considered martyrs.... They just don't know it. - DCThis especially sucks when those making martyrs by shooting rockets willy-nilly are doing it for Allah, while those getting pounded in retaliation are Christians or Druze.
Kevin
Herrick and His Balls | July 30, 2006, 6:19pm | #
I'm not trying to argue moral equivalence so much as that Israel has no moral high ground. Maybe it's the same thing. However, the attrocities committed by Israel are as sickening as those committed by Hezbollah, Hamas, and friends. Both sides have a lot of innocent blood on their hands.I've always been so fucking pissed by neoconservatives who bitch that stability under Arab dictators is what leads to terrorism, when they don't give equal condemnation to the just as repressive and despicable practices that Israel subjects the Palestinians in occupied territories to. Israel should fall under the category of the rest of Middle Eastern repressors of Arabs whose appeasal in the name of stability neocons have condemned.
Herrick and His Balls | July 30, 2006, 6:23pm | #
Note that I'm not justifying the terrorists' digusting acts. Just because I'm disgusted by the attrocities at Abu Ghraibh doesn't mean that I can't also hate the fucking terrorists murdering innocents in Iraq. The same goes for Israel and enemies. I guess what I'm saying I hate is assholes who say Israel good, terrorists bad like its black and white when it's objectively Israel bad, terrorists bad.Ron Hardin | July 30, 2006, 6:24pm | #
Hezbollah is to the Lebanese what unions are to workers, or black leaders are to blacks, or ... etc, great populist show of being their respective friends and screwing them at the same time.The more women and children killed, the better the operation worked. It doesn't matter on which side.
The media is too dumb - I have to correct that below - to say that.
What the media will always do is play for soap opera, and the more tiny victims, the better. They're attracting soap opera people, not military strategists.
Letting that work is like paying ransom, except these guys are in on the take themselves. They bill for the audience they get.
Israel shouldn't play that game, but I don't suppose you want to insult the media.
By the way, Jews are special in that ethics is not symmetric : it starts with asymmetry - the other guy has all the rights. That's why it's ethics.
And the reason that resonates, is part of the religion, is that it's true of ethics in general. Everybody is a Jew.
Still, you don't pay blackmail.
Madog | July 30, 2006, 6:25pm | #
This is what happens when you give terrorists free run of your country....Hezbollah & the Lebanese government killed those people, not Israel.
Herrick and His Balls | July 30, 2006, 6:25pm | #
But I'm not saying we shouldn't be Israel's ally though. We should support them because they've been our son of a bitch, not because we pretend they're any better than the rest of the assfucks in the region.Grant Gould | July 30, 2006, 6:28pm | #
Of course, having told people to leave is a fascinatingly disingenous bit of ass-covering: Convoys of vehicles, such as one would use to evacuate civilians from a village, have regularly been bombed as well. To say, "oh, the civilians didn't leave, so it's okay to kill them" is garbage pure and simple.An armed gang that kills a civilian is moral horseshit, whether it is a terrorist mob, an army, or the frickin' Elks Club. That isn't a moral equivalency argument -- I will happily agree that Hezbollah is deeper, stinkier horseshit if your interests run toward horseshitometry. To me, it's all shit.
Armed gangs blow up each others' civilians and romanticize it as war. Call it war if you like; it's still murder.
Don Coyote | July 30, 2006, 6:29pm | #
happy, some just can't go there.I keep waiting for the humanitarian aid from Iran, Syria and Saudi to arrive in Haifa. Also, have foreigners been evacuated out of Israel for their security?
Ron Hardin | July 30, 2006, 6:33pm | #
Hey cool, the building appears to have collapsed 8 hours after being hit.http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3283816,00.html
Almost as if somebody blew it up later. It's the sort of thing that costs the union an election, if true and it gets out.
PapayaSF | July 30, 2006, 6:40pm | #
Herrick, I think it's pretty clear that Israel is far better than their opponents in the region, in any number of ways. Arabs and Muslims in Israel can vote in a multi-party democracy: Syrians and Egyptians and Saudis and Iranians can't say that. Muslims are (AFAIK) largely free to practice their religion in Israel. Do I need to explain to you the state of religious freedom in the surrounding states? Non-Jews in Israel also benefit from an economy and education system that's better than their neighbors. Etc.Finally, according to the Geneva Convention, when guerilla groups hide amid civilians as Hezbollah does, any collateral civilian deaths are the fault of the guerilla group, not the attacking force.
Chad | July 30, 2006, 6:44pm | #
Simple rule of thumb: If you choose to fight from behind civilians, you take 100% responsibility for safety. Hezbollah has the blood of 54 more innocents on their hands. Remember, it is Hezbollah, not Israel, that benefits from these death; it is Hezbollah, not Isreal, that WANTS and GLORIFIES these deaths; it is Hezbollah, not Israel, that deliberately places civilians in the cross-fire.In my opinion, it is morally reprehensible to blame Israel for the obvious, direct, desired consequences of HEZBOLLAH'S choices, thus rewarding Hezbollah for their barbarous actions.
Herrick | July 30, 2006, 6:58pm | #
Herrick,I really can't understand your position. As someone with absolutely no beef in the situation (I'm an isolationist, not a neocon), Israel seems to have demonstrated the patience of Job in dealing with this people. If any other country had to deal with the crap they do the response would be immediate and overwhelming. Certainly if the US had this problem it wouldn't be a problem anymore. South Lebanon simply wouldn't exist. And we would be justified. There are only three groups that deserve any kind of blame in this affair. Hizubllah- which started an unprovoked war, and Syria and Iran- which enabled them. From an objective, moral standpoint Israel is blameless. And even if they decide to turn S. Lebanon into a radioactive parking lot, that conclusion would stand.
Don Coyote | July 30, 2006, 6:59pm | #
Chad, It worked (ceasefire) in Qana 10 years ago and it looks like world opinion is knocking again. And look where we are today? What did that history teach us? Repeat what?Israel has announced a 2 day halt to the air campaign. Hopefully they will continue to conduct surveillance.
APL | July 30, 2006, 7:05pm | #
This is what happens when you give terrorists free run of your country....Hezbollah & the Lebanese government killed those people, not Israel.
Obviously, somebody completely forgot about the Lebanese civil war.
Herrick and His Balls | July 30, 2006, 7:15pm | #
Don't give me the crap about Israel having multiparty elections for all their people. What about the occupied territories, where settlements keep eating up the most valuable land and people routinely have their basic rights violated (not to mention the occasional civilians killed for no good reason at all)? Saying Israel is a multiparty liberal democracy is like saying Apartheid South Africa was one. Israel cannot be considered a democracy until either the Palestinians in occupied territories get an equal vote for the Knesset as people in Israel proper or they get their own viable state.Note, I'm not saying Egypt, Syria, or Saudi Arabia are any better. They're not. Israel is just another Middle East motherfucker state. They fit in quite well with their neighbors, when you think about it.
What really sickens me is the way the Bush administration completely stabbed Lebanon in the back by saying nothing of Israel's attrocious overreaction. Lebanon might have been the one state that could have actually become a free, multiparty democracy in the region (although Jordan is close, with their combo monarchy/democracy) if Israel hadn't killed it in its infancy.
Ruthless | July 30, 2006, 7:16pm | #
The more intense the violence the less rational the discourse, even here deep, deep underground in the H&R Temple of the Vestal Virgins.But here's the thing that bugs me most: How can Condi Rice, Israel's Number One ally, presume to pass herself off as a mediator? Talk about irrational!
She needs to be visiting Africa and talking about AIDS or something.
Herrick and His Balls | July 30, 2006, 7:19pm | #
And if Israel wanted to act like a civilized country about Hezbollah, they had an opportunity to give Lebanon's central government military aid so that they actually could rein in Hezbollah. Instead, they decided to let the Hezbollah problem fester on their border while punishing Lebanon for not doing something they couldn't do. Israel attacking anything in Lebanon that was not clearly a Hezbollah target is the moral equivalent of assaulting a retarded person for not solving a partial differential equation.Lowdog | July 30, 2006, 7:20pm | #
Herrick & Balls - I'm in general agreement with you, but don't you think Hezbullah (yes, I don't really know how to spell it) had something to do with not wanting Lebannon to be the free, democratic state it was moving towards?But there's the rub...both sides have been sabotaging any chances for peace for as long as I've paid it any attention. It just pisses me off that the whole world is on edge because these selfish, irrational fuckers can't just learn to chill out.
PapayaSF | July 30, 2006, 7:26pm | #
Herrick, the occupied territories exist because the inhabitants lost yet another aggressive war against their neighbors. Ask the German inhabitants of Alsace-Lorraine and the Sudetenland and Danzig how that works.I've said it before, but if the Palestinians want their land back, they could disavow terrorism, accept Israel, and adopt Gandhian peaceful protest methods. They'd have their state in 2 years, tops. But they want to kill Jews more than they want peace and a state, so I say screw 'em.
Herrick and His Balls | July 30, 2006, 7:32pm | #
I agree, the Palestinians should drop terrorism. Then one of the parties in the conflict would actually have a moral high ground, rather than the race to the bottom between the Israelis and Arabs that is the current state of affairs.This is some perverse game of chicken though. Israel could end 90+% of the terrorism by letting the Palestinians have a viable state and moving out the settlers, and the Palestinians could have state rather quickly if they somehow could rein in the terrorist groups. However, the race to the moral bottom continues because neither group wants to seize the high ground.
anon | July 30, 2006, 7:37pm | #
I can't believe what Israel apologists here are saying ... I guess, bombing kids to pieces is o.k. if done by a democratic country or if the victims are arabs.The fact of the matter is Hezbollah killed far less civilans than israel did in the last 3 weeks of violence, even the ratio of civilialns to soldiers/combatants is far less than what the Israelies did. No amount of spin or Arab hatred will change that fact.
pigwiggle | July 30, 2006, 7:51pm | #
"The fact of the matter is Hezbollah killed far less civilans than israel did in the last 3 weeks of violence, ..."Simply because they can't. It isn't as if they wouldn't given the opportunity.
Lowdog | July 30, 2006, 7:55pm | #
PapayaSF said: "I've said it before, but if the Palestinians want their land back, they could disavow terrorism, accept Israel, and adopt Gandhian peaceful protest methods. They'd have their state in 2 years, tops."I don't know if I can agree with that 100%. Back when Clinton was trying to broker a peace settlement, some factions in Israel helped to ensure that it didn't work out and instead we saw a re-escalation of violence (I'll try to find a link from a reputable source when I get some time), so I don't know that if the Palestinians just laid down their weapons and stopped blowing up Israelis everything would magically work out.
The thing is, there are factions on both sides that probably would love to make things work, but equally powerful and numerous groups on both sides who have no interest in peace.
I really have no love for either side (as if all my similar claims left any room for doubt), although I can also understand each side's position, to a point. Still, we are in the 21st Century, and it would be nice if more of our fellow man cared to catch up (including a bunch of idiots right here in our own neck of the woods, some of whom have influence and power).
Kevin | July 30, 2006, 7:57pm | #
I hate how people rush to blame Hizbollah. Yes hezbollah is partially responible but Israel is more responible for these peoples deaths. They have bombed the highways and a lot of vehicles full of civilians that travel on them making people more afraid of trying to leave the south. I mean if you leaflet saying get out or get bombed and then bomb the cars leaving on the highways you aren't exactly presenting people with good options either way.Israels accomplishments so far this war:
400-750+ Lebanese Civilians Killed
3,220 Lebanese Civilians Injured
4 UN Observers Killed
10,000 to 15,000 tonnes of heavy fuel spilt into Med. Causing a massive ecological disaster after the bombing of a Lebanese powerplant.
800,000 displaced Lebanese.
Israel messed up overreacted and has done horrible target selection leading to the deaths of hundreds of Lebanese civilians and making Israel lose their only allies in lebanon. And perhaps inspiring a whole new generation of Hezbollah fighters. Also throw in creating a humanitarian and ecological disaters and well Israel messed up. Israel lost the PR front of this war nad potentially the whole war by using a horribly planned air war. When will western style militarys learn that air wars don't destroy insurgents and terrorists? How many civilians have to die before Israel and the US figure that out? Only hardcore Israel apoligists seem to argue that Israel hasn't fucked up.
Mark Borok | July 30, 2006, 8:17pm | #
Israel has now ceased bombing for 48 hours in response to international outrage over civilian deaths at Qana.That reminds me of the time Hezbollah ceased its attacks in response to... well, anyway, they apolgized for... okay, help me out, someone.
Oh, yeah, they apologized for killing those two Israeli Arab girls, but then they said they considered those girls "martyrs for Palestine", which of course made everyone very happy.
"they had an opportunity to give Lebanon's central government military aid so that they actually could rein in Hezbollah."
Yeah, and the Lebanese army would have mutinied and half of it would have crossed over to Hezbollah's side. "Let's help our enemies disarm the one force that has proved effective against them" would go over very well with the Lebanese public.
Ruthless | July 30, 2006, 8:19pm | #
I can't resist tossing out some raw meat here.Is US policy an echo of Israel's or vice versa?
FatDrunkAndStupid | July 30, 2006, 8:29pm | #
Hezbollah is partially responsible? What kind of bizzaro world are some of you living in? Israel didn't start this war. Israel doesn't want anything to do with Lebanon. Two weeks ago Hezbollah, for no apparent reason, started a war with their neighbor to the South. They are now reaping what they sowed. Apparently this is what they want. These people want to be martyrs. Israel should give them their wish. The only way peace will ever be achieved in the middle east is if Hezbollah, and their like minded enablers start dying on a scale we haven't yet seen. We need more events like the one that occured today, not less. Violence is the only form of communication these monsters understand.Rick Barton | July 30, 2006, 8:33pm | #
Anyone wanna ask; "Why do they hate us?"That's our money that the Israeli military is committing this carnage with. Our government has also been providing reconnaissance intelligence. Did they for this slaughter? It's way past time that we cut these savages off. The Israeli government has an affluent, industrialized nation to tax money from and it certainly doesn’t "need” our tax dollars for blood money. We should all contact our rep and senators...
http://www.visi.com/juan/congress/
...and let them know that the Israeli government should be cut off from our tax dollars if they want our votes.
Israeli airstrike on the town of Qana kills 54 people, 37 of them children.
Also, since the start of the last intifada, there have been more Palestinian children killed by the Israeli military in the prosecution of the occupation than the total number of Israelis killed by Palestinians.
happyjuggler0 | July 30, 2006, 8:36pm | #
400-750+ Lebanese Civilians Killed3,220 Lebanese Civilians Injured
Where did you get those figures? I have three issues with them.
First, what makes you think that any casualty figures coming out of Lebanon are in any way objective? Surely Hezbollah is controlling such information.
Second, what makes you think anyone objective can tell the difference between a civilian and a combatant casualty? (If you, and the media, used people instead of civilian, or used three categories, such as definite civilians [children, old ladies], definite combatants [uniformed], and undetermined, I'd be much happier here).
Third, how is it that your death toll has a huge margin of error while your injury total is presumed accurate within +/-10 injured?
Regarding Israel's response to getted rocketed the past 6 years after pulling out of Lebanon, what do you think they should have done? It is soooooooooooo much easier to say they shouldn't have done this or shouldn't have done that in hindsite, it is much easier to say what they can do with a huge number of terrorists on their border who want to see their country wiped out.
happyjuggler0 | July 30, 2006, 8:42pm | #
it is much easier to say what they can do with a huge number of terrorists on their border who want to see their country wiped out.should say
it is much harder to say what they can do with a huge number of terrorists on their border who want to see their country wiped out.
Oops.
happyjuggler0 | July 30, 2006, 8:46pm | #
I can't resist tossing out some raw meat here. Is US policy an echo of Israel's or vice versa?Cute. How about this in response:
Is French policy: 1)an echo of Middle East Terrorists? or 2) are they simply a bunch of Jew haters? or 3) are they deadly afraid someone would come over and blow them up if they said something that wasn't utterly spineless?
Rick Barton | July 30, 2006, 8:48pm | #
Surely Hezbollah is controlling such information.That's not for sure at all. Many civilian casualties have been in areas without a Hezbollah presence. Why do you say that? Of course it doesn't help that the Israeli military destroyed a Christian, anti-Hezbollah radio station.
Don Coyote | July 30, 2006, 8:50pm | #
Israel could better position itself in the world view if it would forgive and cease acceptance of reparation payments from Germany, refuse US foreign aid and stand on their own feet as a nation. It would relieve much animosity and stereotyping.The US would remain a strong ally and continue to work in the region to accept Israel's permanency.
I would also suggest that 1967 green line be reestablished and Palestine be given full autonomy/sovereignty and control of all areas on their side. No exceptions. Any Israeli that desired to stay inside Palestine would be required to become a citizen of Palestine or depart within limits of visa agreements.
Right of return would be permanently voided.
The believed right of all the promise land would be voided.
Water rights should be protected by a joint source/force.
Shebaa Farms area should be returned and included in Israel's borders.
However, given Israel's current situation, I would be more ruthless than you could imagine, world opinion be damned, until I was sure my nation was permanetly secure and safe.
If that makes me an Israeli apologist, so be it.
Don out.
Lowdog | July 30, 2006, 8:53pm | #
Rick - right on, brotha. I mean, it should be painfully obvious to any libertarian-minded person that millions of our tax dollars should not be being sent to another 1st world country (based on economy), and it also has the added benefit of not making the US look like hypocrits and assholes.We need more events like the one that occured today, not less.
That's fucked, happyjuggler. How can you possibly say that most of the folks killed in Qada deserved to be crushed under falling rubble? From the looks of a lot of the bodies being pulled from said rubble, I'd be surprised to find out that those children, old men, and ladies are Hezbullah's fighting forces.
FatDrunkAndStupid | July 30, 2006, 8:57pm | #
Who cares how many Arab civilian deaths there are? The moral relativity on this issue is mind boggling. Israel doesn't want to kill any Arab Civilians. Hezbollah, if it could, would kill every Israeli citizen (excpet those with Arab blood of course, though if they had to die to kill all the Jews I suppose they'd consider it worth it and brush them off as "martyrs"). Israel did not start this war. Israel does not want to be in Lebanon. Israel doesn not want to kill or fight everyone. Everything that has happened thus far is the direct result of Hezbollah's actions. Israel is only defending itself. But some on this board feel they've "gone too far". Europe talks of "proporitionality". As if "proportionality" can have any effect on mindless murderers.happyjuggler0 | July 30, 2006, 8:57pm | #
That's fucked, happyjugglerI suggest getting glasses, that wasn't me.
Rick Barton | July 30, 2006, 9:00pm | #
Is US policy an echo of Israel's or vice versa?Yes, that's what the evidence indicates. Although not 100%. BTW, Chomsky maintains that, for the larger midEast, its the vice versa case vis a vis the Israeli government.
Ruthless | July 30, 2006, 9:04pm | #
Show me some cyber windows and I'll lob a few cyber rocks.Would that soothe things?
happyjuggler0 | July 30, 2006, 9:06pm | #
Chomsky maintains thatHe might be right, but you won't persuade anyone here of anything by starting a statement that way.
Ruthless | July 30, 2006, 9:10pm | #
"vice versa case vis a vis"Rick Barton,
You aren't hyperventilizing are you?
I'm truly "jellin'" here in Sinincincinnati.
Rick Barton | July 30, 2006, 9:19pm | #
He might be right, but you won't persuade anyone here of anything by starting a statement that way.Well, as I said, I think that the evidence leads the opposite way, and I also think that Noam is pretty confused on a number of other matters. For example; he once characterized anarcho-capitalism as "hateful"....??? He offered no substantiation. Probably cuz he had none.
black_box | July 30, 2006, 9:36pm | #
And if Israel wanted to act like a civilized country about Hezbollah, they had an opportunity to give Lebanon's central government military aid so that they actually could rein in Hezbollah. Instead, they decided to let the Hezbollah problem fester on their border while punishing Lebanon for not doing something they couldn't do.You give the Israelis too much credit. Israel can't help its own army from picking stupid targets, and yet they are supposed to play puppet master in the region to prevent these conflicts from ever happening?
Rick Barton | July 30, 2006, 9:39pm | #
Ruthless:You aren't hyperventilizing are you?
Yeah. :) I was never before occasioned to say those two in such proximity. I was just wondering if everyone (or anyone) groked what I meant.
I'm truly "jellin'" here in Sinincincinnati.
Yep, and for what it's worth, Ruthless, when H&R incorporates video cam transmissions from us commenters, I'm thinking that you'll be the first to be banned by Reason from using the technology.
black_box | July 30, 2006, 9:40pm | #
Yes. It is significant. It is time for Israel to let that go. It has been long enough.Don't you think these payments and the monetary and military support from America buy some influence over Israel's actions in the region? If Israel were to completely free itself of foreign influence it would likely not think twice before assaulting its neighbors (perhaps even including Iran).
Ruthless | July 30, 2006, 10:00pm | #
Rick Barton,I meant my feet were extremely comfortable, not that I was KY-jellin'.
smaaaaaky!
They're pickin' in me.
Lowdog | July 30, 2006, 10:03pm | #
happy - doh! My most sincere apologies. That was most obviously directed at FatDunkAndStupid.Once again, my bad, no offense meant...not enough sleep, too much drink, and trying to keep up with too much info.
But I stick by what I said, although Fat should have been the target of my ire, and not happyjuggler.
Don Coyote | July 30, 2006, 11:01pm | #
Black Box: Israels forces are designed for defense. Although the can strike great distance with aircraft/missles, it is defensive at a distance. They are not designed to transport their forces in any mass to accomplish the objectives you laid out.Remember they had to call up reserves as backup to pull off the small incursion into Lebanon.
Of course they have the last resort trump card and have announced they will play it in lieu of being destroyed. They make no mystery of it.
doug | July 30, 2006, 11:31pm | #
"I've said it before, but if the Palestinians want their land back, they could disavow terrorism, accept Israel, and adopt Gandhian peaceful protest methods. They'd have their state in 2 years, tops."I would have believed this once, but then Rabin was assassinated by an Israeli. Extremists on both sides have veto power, and as long as this is the case the war will continue.
BTW, how do the Israeli's administer occupied territories? Do they keep a military presence there to control the populace? Or.. do they also add economic occupation as well building farms, resorts,...etc? I don't know, I've heard things though. Do they collect taxes?
Karen | July 30, 2006, 11:37pm | #
As I've said before here, this little unpleasantness merely hastens the inevitable collapse of the entire region, from the Turkish border to the Persian Gulf, into one giant failed state. Somalia sitting on top of the largest reservoir of the world's most valuable resource. Why, do you ask, am I so pessimistic? The valley of the Jordan river has too little arable land, way to little water, and way to the power of Avogadro's number too many people. Add to that volatile mix the fact that slightly more than half of the world's six billion people follow religions based in that region and therefore have a powerful emotional attachment to the area, and that certain members of those faiths would be thrilled to death -- in the strictest meaning of the term -- to kill all the members of the other two big groups. This is a recipe for catastrophe, and I just hope it isn't as bad as I think it's going to be.As for Israel, the worst thing that could happen to them is that large segments of the American public start thinking "a plague on both your miserable houses" like I do.
And on that cheerful note, I'm going to bed, where my two sons are sleeping because Daddy is gone on business. Given the news tonight, I agreed without hesitation.
MainstreamMan | July 30, 2006, 11:40pm | #
Don Quixote"However, given Israel's current situation, I would be more ruthless than you could imagine, world opinion be damned, until I was sure my nation was permanetly secure and safe."
See, that's what they have been doing for the last 50 years. It ain't worked. But your ideas on how to better position themselves, or some variation, might actually get them the permanent security they hold in such esteem. Violence and force beget violence and force. Israel has taught that lesson to the neighboring Arab states. It hasn't learned the lesson itself,unfortunately. The current situation is a result of ruthless use of force and collective punishment. They need to learn a new response if they truly want security.
APL | July 31, 2006, 12:06am | #
Who cares how many Arab civilian deaths there are? The moral relativity on this issue is mind boggling.Hell, even the first sentence of you post is mind-boggling.
What ever happened to unconditional surrender? Or ust the concept of winning wars? Nowadays if people care about a war (if they don't welcometo sudan/congo/colombia..... etc.) they demand that it end, immediately, under any circumstaces. You don't have to be fighting Hitler and Tojo to doubt that that makes sense.
nlo | July 31, 2006, 1:14am | #
"The current situation is a result of ruthless use of force and collective punishment. They need to learn a new response if they truly want security."from Mainstream Man
It's true. This is why, in just over two weeks, the situation went from one in which, remarkably, Jordan, Saudi Arabia, and Egypt were condemning Hezbollah actions against israel, to one where just the opposit s occurring. Israel should have realized it had a good thing going when some Arabs were on its good side.
Rick Barton | July 31, 2006, 1:16am | #
Taking APL's lead...FatDrunkAndStupid:
Who cares how many Arab civilian deaths there are?
I think that I can speak for almost all, if not all of us on this thread when I say that that comment was disgusting. In fact, I can't think of a more reprehensible comment that I've ever read! And I've even read Lefty blogs.
But I bet that you didn't really mean it and you just chose a very poor way to express your point. So why don't you just tell us that and we will all give you a group forgiveness cyber hug. And BTW, I'm thinking with that screen-name that you probably aren't a really cute gal so obviously my motivations here are purely...Oh what the Hell, it's just a cyber hug anyway.
Oh yeah, and after that comment, I think that we oughta offer a group cyber hug to Arab civilians as well.
mediageek | July 31, 2006, 1:42am | #
Hezbullah hides behind civilians, with the twisted hope that an Israeli attack will turn them into martyrs in front of the media.Usually this horrific tactic is enough, it would seem, to get the Israelis to back off.
No longer, it would seem. The Israelis see red, and they're out to collect their ton of flesh.
Rick Barton | July 31, 2006, 3:01am | #
mediageek,:-) and a nice ethno-Shakespearean refwerence/pun as well. Was that intended?
Rick Barton | July 31, 2006, 3:17am | #
Ruthless,Ahhha! Cracks me up! I wasn't thinking about that, but the fact that you did lends credence to my prediction.
I make it that you are our anarchist with libertine leanings. When we make H&R the Movie and you play yourself, your character will take on rather Rasputin type qualities.
dov | July 31, 2006, 6:34am | #
Hezbullah tactic is to prevent Lebanonies people from leaving the fighting zonesee on:
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3278026,00.html
laser | July 31, 2006, 6:38am | #
The Hisb'Allah once again take a chance on bluffing the world community, and it works!The Hisb'Allah orchestrated a "massacre" in Qana, in which a miracle of physics occurred: an air strike managed to collapse a building six hours after the fact.
Israel bombed at 1 o'clock, and the building collapsed at 7 o'clock. The force of the explosion could have been caused only by massive amounts of explosives that were stored in that building. Once again Arabs cynically cause the death of Arabs, and the world blames Israel.
Isabelle | July 31, 2006, 6:42am | #
Hezbollah uses civilians with top of cynicism hiding themselves and the weapon among and under their houses. They do not care about children may be injured or killed.For Israel the only possibility to survive is to answer Hezbollah attacks.
the isareli government is the only one to blame in this terrible tragedy, its outright murder to target innocent children and civilians. IRAEL YOU HAVE LOST MY SUPPORT
lt. | July 31, 2006, 7:22am | #
well , as was said again and again , when you fight intentionally behind civilians you can't avoid these tragedies .This serves Hezbullah (and any terror based ideology) and strengthens the support for them amongst Lebanon and other Arab's.
The Hezbullah is obviously planning on things like this happening so they can get some peace and quite to rearm and regroup .
i hope there is no permanent cease fire because of this .
Clearly this blood is on the hands of the Hezbullah .
lt.
Alex | July 31, 2006, 7:27am | #
hello to all short and small thinkers...u don't realized that Israel is dealing with cawards terrorist as the UN says.
u don't realize that Israel is defending them self very well cose if they ware so stupid as the lebanease ppl they would have also alots of dead amoung the civilians.
u don't realize that Hezboula is terrorising Lebanon in the name of Allah, Iran and Syria.
u don't relize that they dont care about they own civilians by fireing from civilians area... they just wait that Israel repost there to kill civilians.... in fact that is they GOALS is to have AS MUCH AS POSSIBLE SHAIDS for arab suport around teh world to be also SAHIDS against JEWS around the world.... in fact they want to continue what HITLER started....
and just dont forget ure on they next list after they finish with the JEWS... so be Prepare for JIHAD...
u dont relize that we having more and more NEO NAZIs in the region that includes all JEWS (ive heard that before 60 years ago)
So what right-wing blog linked to this? (And, FYI, absolutely nothing is lamer than substituting "u" for "you".)
I was in lebanon actually for one week ago. I was in Tyre or 2 km from the city and exactly in the refugee camp for palestinians in Burj el-shamali. We were safe from all bombing so people would go up on their roofs(that are flat over there) and watch the ongoing fighting between the two parts. I could see the hezbollah launching missiles towards Israeli land. Never I saw a missile been launched from populated areas, the launching came from the banana fields and so. Why should they launch missiles from populated areas? They are not ailien fighters that been fished up in the Persian Gulf. They are lebanees almost always from the southern parts of the country. They all have parents or family or sisters and brothers or other relatives in the southern villages. So is it possible that they would risk their own families lifes by launching missiles from between their houses? Would you?
Calev | July 31, 2006, 8:04am | #
Poor Moe,In another context, his naivite would be charming. Why should Hezbollah fire rockets from civilian areas? Because it's a win-win-win situation! They win because they can store their rockets in places which - until identified as a hostile site - won't be targeted by Israel. They win because they can then quickly take out the rockets and fire them before doing a runner. And they win because when Israel - in accordance with international law, by the way - hits the launch sites, civilians get killed and wounded so providing fantastic propaganda that Moe and others can think is truth. Oh, and one more "win": Hezbollah can go around telling everyone how the dead civlians are martyrs.
R Brody | July 31, 2006, 8:19am | #
> Friends,>
> 1. Tonight, an IDF spokesman showed aerial photos of rockets
> being fired from residential areas in Qana. It showed the
> portable rocket launchers
> being parked beneath residential buildings. The spokesman
> said that the bombs dropped on Qana were dropped at 1 a.m.
> The reports of
> the building collapse took place at 7 a.m. Also, no bombs
> actually hit the building. So, who was responsible for the
> collapse of that building? Could Hezbollah weapons have
> exploded, destroying the building? Was it deliberate, a
> way to pressure Israel into a ceasefire the same way they
> did last time, in exactly the same spot? And why
> is no one in the media picking up on this time gap and
> asking questions?
>
> 2. The number of those injured is being supplied by
> Lebanese sources, and being quoted by all the news stations.
> So far, only 26 bodies have
> been recovered. But news reports are saying the number was
> twice that, and half are children. That too is supplied by
> unknown sources and repeated
> by the major media.
>
> 3. At 7 a.m. a barrage of Hezbollah rockets hit the shopping
> center and buildings of Kiryat Shmona, unlike anything else
> the town has experienced.
> Altogether 1500 kilograms of bombs have hit the area's
> approximately 25,000 residents remaining in their homes.
> Where is the outrage over that?
>
>From Naomi Ragen website
>
Marlene | July 31, 2006, 8:39am | #
What a pity. Justifying the murder of some many Lebanese civilians. As I understand, Israel must withdraw from Gaza and the West Bank, and all territories it has occupied since 1967. If Israelis want to talk about peace, then they must abide by the UN resolution 242 (1967).What Israel is doing now in Lebanon and Palestine is genocide, no less than what Nazi Germani did to the Jews throughout WWII.
Israel's war crimes must also be brought to justice.
Thinking guy. | July 31, 2006, 9:05am | #
ye, that's right.just the same as in 1996, hezbollah hides its rockets and soldiers among other civilians, including poor and harmless women and children,
using them as a LIVING HUMAN SHIELD.
unlike israeli soldiers, who try not to hurt innocent ppl, hezbollah ARE COWARDS, not even true "shahids", who are too weak to stand by their own and fight like men.
shame.
Ruthless | July 31, 2006, 9:06am | #
"When we make H&R the Movie"Al Gore and Michael Moore and Woody Allen, combined, could not make an H&R movie that anybody would watch, even if Rasputin were played by yours truly.
Reasoned Thinker | July 31, 2006, 9:10am | #
In war the first casualty is the truth:This is the painful truth;
1. The deaths at Qana were caused because Hizbollah situate Rocket Launchers right next to innocent Civilians. Incidentally, a letter home from one of the Canadian UN Obsevers in the outpost hit last week, voiced concern that Hizbollah had set a Rocket Launching position metres from its location (strange how only China seems to have much of this).
As painful as it is to accept, Hizbollah, by their actions, turn innocent civilians into a legitimate military target. The very moment Hizbollah fire a rocket from a particular location, that location becomes a military target.
Surely no right minded individual cannot deny a nation's right to strike at a legitimate military target.
If anyone is denying that Hizbollah sites rockets within innocent civilian populations, I would suggest they are somewhat deluding themselves as to the reality of the situation.
2. The deaths at Qana were avoidable, residents had been warned of imminent attack days before by leafletting (incidentally, I have not noticed the same leafletting by Hizbollah - but perhaps applying equal moral standards is not realistic).
There is no doubt that what is happening at present in Lebanon is a tragedy. It is however a tragedy caused in the first instance by a terrorist group (who form part of the Lebanese Government) entering Israel's sovereign territory, killing Israeli soldiers on Israeli Territory and kidnapping others.
With respect to any opinions that may be voiced, such naked agression cannot be ignored and must be stamped on.
Israel's citizens are entitled to security, they are entitled to freedom from terror, freedom from an enemy whose stated goal is to wipe Israel from the map, freedom from an enemy who are the spiritual and ideological brothers and sisters to those who bombed the twin towers, who caused the tragedies in London on 7 / 7 and in the trains in Madrid.
...And yet, while defending its citizens and sovereignty, the worlds first position seems to be condemnation, irrespective of what the reality on the ground may be and irrespective of what Israel's enemies may 'throw / launch / fire' at it.
I end with a question, if you were in the position of the Prime Minister of Israel, and you were faced with the murder and kidnapping of soldiers from within your own country, by a group sworn to your destruction, by a group that has been firing rockets into your country for the past years (albeit unreported by the worlds media) what would you have done?
In case you don't all know about this. The Isreali's have created a tool that they are using to alert all their supporters to articles, polls, surveys and other sites of interest that they feel need to have the opinion adjusted more to their favor . Go to http://giyus.org/ and download their tool "megaphone" so you will be alerted to the same sites in order to counter their countering efforts . 3 days ago they had a page on the link where it says "make a "difference"" that showed a snapshot of a yahoo survey before and after they sent out their alert . It showed a totally skewed survey, of course . They pulled that page . The following link shows what they are working on this morning http://giyus.org/alerts/ . Sometimes you must use the oppositions tools . They are clever and organized, that I will give them . Many of the pro-israeli remarks are by their minions.
Herrick and His Balls | July 31, 2006, 9:40am | #
Yeah, I'm all about poxes on all of their houses. A Jew opressive, murderous thug is no better than an Arab one.R C Dean | July 31, 2006, 9:45am | #
And if Israel wanted to act like a civilized country about Hezbollah, they had an opportunity to give Lebanon's central government military aid so that they actually could rein in Hezbollah.I suspect the Israelis concluded it would be monumentally stupid to ship arms to a Lebanese government that had seated Hezbollah in its Parliament, ceded effective control of part of the country to Hezbollah, and showed zero appetite for another civil war.
David (UK) | July 31, 2006, 9:48am | #
1. "If you hide behind your baby to shoot at my baby You are reponsible for getting children killed." IDF soldier.2. "When you sleep with a missile sometimes you don’t wake up in the morning." Israeli Ambassador to the UN, Danny Gillerman.
Herrick - should the Jews just hunker down and take it? If not, how exactly are they supposed to make it stop?
Herrick and His Balls | July 31, 2006, 9:53am | #
They should stop repressing the Arabs under their control (just like the Egyptian, Saudi, and Syrian governments should do to the Arabs under their control) as a first step to solving their problems.In terms of Hezbollah, they should have funded, either covertly or overtly funded the Lebanese army to have reined in Hezbollah. Given that they didn't, there's the option of building a wall.
Like I said, Israel's enemies are no better than Israel either. Israel fits well in a neighborhood of regimes that repress and violate the human rights of Arabs.
If only Hezbollah's rockets were more accurate, Hezbollah could be killing as many Israelis as Israelis are killing Lebonese. This would greatly improve the image of Israel in the eyes of all those who prefer dead Jews to live ones.
anon | July 31, 2006, 10:27am | #
Israel doesn't want to kill any Arab Civilians.So, the airstrike on Qana was their way of not killing Arab civilians.
Jason Ciment | July 31, 2006, 10:34am | #
There is a lot of talk back and forth - what we call jibber jabber - and three basic facts seem to be casually tossed aside amidsty all the rhetoric:1. People under Lebanon's sovereignty (ie. Terrorists who go by the monikor of Hizbollah) illegally and unprovoked crossed the border of another nation
2. They then kidnapped 2 soldiers - and this is even different than a potentially financial and non-political kidnapping of civilians.
3. And they have not returned the kidnapped soldiers.
How can a ceasefire be IMPOSED on the reacting sovereign nation without the first nation stepping up to the plate to first deal with the above 3 items?
I am not defending Qana, but nor am i forgetting how the world thought for months that the Israel army had committed atrocities in Jenin before they were unanimously cleared by the legal authorities. Until the smoke clears I don't think it is right to assign guilt.
For now, the clear thing is for the Lebanese government to assert itself with ACTION not just words to the world telling us what is the right thing to do. Watch Face The Nation from Sunday to see how the Lebanese prime minister just jibber jabbered and did not actually do or even commit to do anything more than talk.
Warren | July 31, 2006, 10:40am | #
Jason,Your three facts have been casually tossed aside because they have been overwhelmed in significance by subsequent events.
hayat | July 31, 2006, 11:03am | #
Hizbollah has all the rights!!!!- Hezbollah fires missiles in to CIVILIAN areas in Israel. Where is the world???
- Hezbollah can hits a Hospital in israel. Where is the world??
- Hezbollah kidnaps Soldiers in israeli territories. Where is the world?
- Israel telld the civilians to leave the areas. They don't leave. WHY? Because they are using themselves a hideout for their militia husbands. DID ANYBODY ASKED WHERE WERE THE MAN OF THESE FAMILIES? WERE THEY FIRING MISSILES AT ISRAEL, WHILE HAVING THEIR WIFES AND CHILDREN WAIRTING FOR THEM???????
val | July 31, 2006, 11:09am | #
So, the airstrike on Qana was their way of not killing Arab civilians.Anon, as you can see some of then more criticaly minded individuals here are discussing alternative startegies etc in this thread. Further more, if you follow some of the links they will show that Hezbollah was firing rockets near the building, also the timing of the collapse has been called into question. Now Im not saying that all those reports are true, but maybe some critical thought process is in order. Your proverbial cries of, "WONT SOMEONE PLEASE THINK OF THE CHILDREN", do not really add anything to the conversation.
TJIT | July 31, 2006, 11:48am | #
Herrick,Israel pulled out of Lebanon and the UN was supposed to make sure hezbollah did not arm themselves.
Seems like Israel's reward for less oppression (they pulled out of Lebanon) was kidnapped soldiers and more deaths of civilians within Israel. That makes your argument about less oppression fixing the problem rather suspect at best.
AML | July 31, 2006, 12:07pm | #
This would greatly improve the image of Israel in the eyes of all those who prefer dead Jews to live ones.For the last time - nobody is saying anything like that. Both the IDF and Hez are killing civilians. It's just that the IDF is so much better at it.
toby | July 31, 2006, 12:34pm | #
While some of you list all the Lebanese casualities, it would be nice to mention the amount of missiles fired on Israel, the attempt of Hezbolla to hit the petrochemical factories in Haifa (which, had they been successful, would be far worse than Kana) and targeting Israeli towns for no more reason than to kill people (I would say Jews but unfortunately, many residents of northern Israel are Christians, Druzes and Moslems).As to the Palestinian situation - Israel withdrew completely from Gaza! So logic is - you are in charge, declare a state and start building it up.
So what do they do? They bombard the south with Kassam Missiles (oops, you didn't know? over 2000 in the past few months). Who is stopping them from declaring a state! Or maybe they don't want a state but to blow Israel of the face of the world
Michael McKegney | July 31, 2006, 1:26pm | #
It drives me crazy to see the carnage that Israel continues to unleash on innocent civilians. I am among a growing number of Americans; white,black and all that are seriously beginning to question our "undying" support for such an aggressive stateDewi Sudarsono | July 31, 2006, 1:28pm | #
The unfortunate loss of civilian life is direct the responsibility of Hezbollah, Syria and Iran. It are the terrorists who are firing at inocent Israeli citizens from populated locations using the civilians as a human shield.The Truth is that
Regardless of your feelings about the crisis between Israel and the Palestinians and Arab neighbors the next two sentences really say it all:
1. If the Arabs put down their weapons today, there would be no more violence.
2. If the Jews put down their weapons today, there would be no more Israel.
Michael McKegney | July 31, 2006, 1:30pm | #
It drives me crazy to see the carnage that Israel continues to unleash on innocent civilians. I am among a growing number of Americans; white,black and all that are seriously beginning to question our "undying" support for such an aggressive stateR C Dean | July 31, 2006, 1:33pm | #
I never cease to be amazed at the people who cannot grasp the most basic ethical principles, like the difference between aggression and self-defense.Both may result in dead bodies, but to say that they are therefor morally, ethically and legally equivalent is to deny that there is any such thing as ethics or morality at all.
R C Dean | July 31, 2006, 1:36pm | #
They should stop repressing the Arabs under their control (just like the Egyptian, Saudi, and Syrian governments should do to the Arabs under their control) as a first step to solving their problems.Hezbollah doesn't care about the repression of Arabs, or it would be attacking the Egyptian, Saudi and Syrian governments. Whatever "repression" of Arabs is going on in Israel, stopping it won't make any difference to Hezbollah, and thus won't do anything to stop Hez aggression.
In terms of Hezbollah, they should have funded, either covertly or overtly funded the Lebanese army to have reined in Hezbollah.
As noted above, this would have amounted to Israel arming Hezbollah.
Given that they didn't, there's the option of building a wall.
Walls don't stop Katyushas.
If those are the only options on offer, then I don't see any realistic alternatives to what is happening today.
MainstreamMan | July 31, 2006, 1:47pm | #
Two naive statements:"Seems like Israel's reward for less oppression (they pulled out of Lebanon) was kidnapped soldiers and more deaths of civilians within Israel. That makes your argument about less oppression fixing the problem rather suspect at best."
"As to the Palestinian situation - Israel withdrew completely from Gaza! So logic is - you are in charge, declare a state and start building it up.
So what do they do? They bombard the south with Kassam Missiles (oops, you didn't know? over 2000 in the past few months). Who is stopping them from declaring a state! Or maybe they don't want a state but to blow Israel of the face of the world."
To assume a situation that took 50 years to develop would instantly correct itself when Israel went part way down the road that might lead to a solution shows a simple lack of common sense. These things take time. I wonder if those still fighting in Gaza might have a stake in the continued occupation and settlement activity in the West Bank? How long did it take after the Israeli withdrawl for Lebenon to get rid of the Syrians? How long have the Syrians been gone? How many Palestinians have Israel killed in Gaza since they left? How many in the West Bank? How many shells have they lobbed into Gaza since they left? What kind of support have they shown the moderate forces in the Palestinian Authority?
The tensions require two parties to actively keep them going. Israel has always been willing to solve its problem with tit for tat use of force. It hasn't worked yet. They need a new response. Hezb and Hamas are unlikely to change their response until their support whithers. This will not happen as long as they can point to the violent tactics of the IDF (justified or not) and the continued occupation and settlement activity(legal or not).
But maybe I am just naive.
Peter | July 31, 2006, 1:47pm | #
1. I'm sick and tired of people referring to Israel as an apartheid state. In Israel, there are Arab citizens, Christian and Muslim, who live with the same rights as every other citizen of Israel. In fact, not only do all Arab citizens have the right to vote, there are Arab representatives in the Israeli parliament. I'd love to be shown one Arab state that has Jews in their governing bodies.2. What possible motive could Israel have for intentionally bombing innocent people with the full and complete knowledge that the destination of their bombs is not a base of operation of Hezbollah terrorists. The only one I can think of would be to be condemned by the world. The Israelis are not stupid. I am sure that they would do everything to avoid such condemnation. Why would Israel target innocent civilians, which is at a minimum unproductive, when targeting terrorists is productive and the aim of the Israeli response to terrorist aggression?
MainstreamMan | July 31, 2006, 1:54pm | #
"I'm sick and tired of people referring to Israel as an apartheid state....In Israel, there are Arab citizens, Christian and Muslim, who live with the same rights as every other citizen of Israel."The parallel to apartheid comes from comparison between the townships and the occupied (or disputed, if you prefer) territories. If everyone in Gaza and the West Bank had full citizenship rights in Israel, then, maybe there would be less of them willing to fight to remove themselves from their situation.
MainstreamMan | July 31, 2006, 2:21pm | #
"Regardless of your feelings about the crisis between Israel and the Palestinians and Arab neighbors the next two sentences really say it all:1. If the Arabs put down their weapons today, there would be no more violence.
2. If the Jews put down their weapons today, there would be no more Israel."
Let's dissect that:
1. If the Arabs put down their weapons today there would be no more violence--
Unless you call the occupation violence. Unless you call the continued settlement activity violence. Unless you call the denial of basic rights to those living in the occupied territories violence.
The Arabs putting down their weapons, might help bring about the end to the violence, but it is not as direct a path as you suggest.
2. If the Jews put down their weapons today, there would be no more Israel.
Depends upon what you mean by "put down." If you mean disarm their military, maybe you are correct. But if you mean stop using said military to impose their will over the disputed lands that are the center of this conflict (disputed territories, or occupied territories depending on your view), they might find they have greater security (within a properly negotiated framework).
No good guys in this conflict.
Both sides choose to continue.
Both sides share blame for said continuation.
Bob | July 31, 2006, 2:29pm | #
This article is being targetted by GIYUS.orgThe "Give Israel Your United Support" website is sending people here to give a pro-Israel biased slant to responses to this article.
See here:
http://giyus. org/alerts/
(Remove the space I inserted)
Effendi | July 31, 2006, 3:55pm | #
Fair game ANYWHERE in the world!!According to This article:
[url=http://www.uruknet.info/?p=25281]Yesha Rabbinical Council: During time of war, enemy has no innocents[/url]
The racist apartheid israeli's claim that, "The Yesha Rabbinical Council announced in response to an IDF attack in Kfar Qanna that "according to Jewish law, during a time of battle and war, there is no such term as 'innocents' of the enemy."
Therefore it is logical and fair to target them anytime, anywhere in the world as was done this last weekend in Seattle.
The war is On!!
Herrick and His Balls | July 31, 2006, 4:18pm | #
Walls would have stopped the raids that led to Israel firing rockets that led to Hezbollah firing back.I see no reason why I should sympathize with either the Jewish assholes or the Muslim assholes in this situation.
val | July 31, 2006, 4:26pm | #
This article is being targetted by GIYUS.org
The "Give Israel Your United Support" website is sending people here to give a pro-Israel biased slant to responses to this article.
Actualy Bob, for most part, the pro-Israel posters in this thread as the usual people that post on here and are pretty consistently pro-Israel. And from my reading this is a pretty well balanced discussion which included reasoned arguments from both sides it event included the 'tin-foil-hat' posts that inevitably come with these type of discussions. I'll let you decide which category your post belongs to.
Marcy Mann | July 31, 2006, 6:04pm | #
It is the international reaction that really scares me. Hezbollah, a terrorist organization that not only believes it is an honor to die as a martyr but is also happy to send their children to their death in order to wipe Israel (and all non-Muslims) off the map. This has been shown on television, reported online, and in newspapers time and again.Hezbollah militants leave their woman and children in the buildings that they flee after launching rockets into Israel knowing the Israelis must take out the launchers in order to protect their people. Instead of berating Hezbollah for putting their children and women in harms way the world turns on Israel. This is the fault of the media.
Having lived in Europe, the Far East, the Middle East, and now the US--each for extended periods of time--I am aware that the different media of each area has an enormous influence on the people. What is so hard for me to believe is that the world is so ignorant and cannot see through this but apparently the historical loathing of Jews and recent dislike of America is clouding world vision.
The clear anti-US/Israeli slant the media puts on the situation seems to be the major cause of what you refer to as the international reaction rather then reality.
R. Steinmann | July 31, 2006, 7:04pm | #
With all due respect, Jews did not start this, Muslims and their organisation of intolerance did. Shalom.TJIT | July 31, 2006, 7:50pm | #
I wonder if Bob thinks he is a modern day Paul Revere?Bravely going from blog to blog shouting "the jews are coming the jews are coming" and then disappearing into the night never to be heard from again.
I was on vacation during the massacre and returned to Hit and Run to be ASTONISHED that the pro-Israel posters were not only not slinking away in shame at what the IDF did but are actually DEFENDING it! What does the IDF have to do to earn your criticism, shoot Matlock in the face? We have no proof that there were fighters in that building, and we have third party observers there (Red Cross, UN, reporters, other agencies). This was a massacre. The whole world sees it that way except for the apologists in the US and Israel. So for the record now we are looking at 600 Lebanese dead, 50+ Israeli soldiers dead, all for the kidnapping of two soldiers. I won't mention the dead Palestinians, largely ignored in the face of the daily Lebanese massacres or the incredible damage to the US which will endanger our troops, national security and foriegn policy by our support for these immoral, arrogant IDF actions.
R.E. | July 31, 2006, 9:13pm | #
Some claim that Qana civilians couldn't get out of harm's way, because they were either too terrified from the bombs falling all around them, or did not have the means to leave.If so, how can one explain the absence of men among the casualties?
Have they run away leaving their families behind, or were they busy firing rockets from the same place where they *hold* their women and children?
Ken | July 31, 2006, 10:30pm | #
" how can one explain the absence of men among the casualties?"How about some proof for this, that there were no men? In the footage I saw there were men on stretchers being taken out. If you have no proof I challenge you: why would you say something you had no proof to say? Is it because you are not objective on this issue and just want to draw doubt about the massacre?
R C Dean | July 31, 2006, 10:43pm | #
Walls would have stopped the raids that led to Israel firing rockets that led to Hezbollah firing back.Herrick, are you really that naive? The Hez has been initiating violence against Israel ever since the complete Israeli withdrawal from Lebanon. Are you not aware that they have been rocketing Israel from Lebanon for months?
Do you really believe that the Israelis are the aggressors here?
A lot of people seem to believe that. Seem to believe that the Jews enjoy having to occupy various border territories, as if attacks were not launched on Israel from those territories before any occupations, as if the Jews were trying to build an empire.
Really, the level of ignorance/naivete on display from the pro-Hez and moral paralysis/equivalence crowd is astonishing.
don | July 31, 2006, 11:01pm | #
"...is one prisoner, unreleased by the enemy, enough reason to start or resume a war? Wouldn't it be criminal to endanger a country-two countries in fact-to save one man? Especially as he may not deserve it? Or may die in the meantime? Thousands of people get killed every day in accidents... so why hesitate over one man?""It doesn't matter whether it's a thousand, or just one, sir. You fight."
Don't libertarians like Heinlein?
Olga | July 31, 2006, 11:24pm | #
"History shows that there is nothing so easy to enslave and nothing so hard to emancipate as ignorance, hence it becomes the double enemy of civilization. By its servility it is the prey of tyranny, and by its credulity it is the foe of enlightenment." ~Lemuel K. Washburnstop being ignorant and pick up a real news source like fox news or the new york sun. the probvlem with free speech is that uninformed and ignorant people are given an opinion and happen to make fools of themselves. don't make fools of yourselves people and back up your claims before you make them.
val | August 1, 2006, 12:37am | #
How about some proof for this, that there were no men? In the footage I saw there were men on stretchers being taken out. If you have no proof I challenge you: why would you say something you had no proof to say? Is it because you are not objective on this issue and just want to draw doubt about the massacre?Ken that goes both ways. What proof do YOU have? The same reports Im guessing that most of us base our opinions on. Im fairly sure he was not implying that there were no men at all, but as Im sure you are already aware most of the victims were children and men were a minority. Also you seem to be ignoring the fact that Hebollah fires rockets into Israel from within populated areas. Or hide their weapons in family homes. You ignore the letter written by UN peacekeepers decrying the fact that Hezbollah launched rockets a few meters away from their position effectively using UN personnel as either human shields if they live or propoganda tools if Israel reponds and they die. Unless of course you are suggesting that the building in Qana was deliberately targeted by the Israelys. Have you seen one too many caricatures of Jews drinking the blood of Arab children or what?
Joanne | August 1, 2006, 1:29am | #
To anyone who thinks the Zionists haven't perfected the use of manipulating the internet, just as they manipulate the mainstream media, this was sent to me by a Jewish peace activist friend in Jerusalem:The following letter was sent by Israel's Ministry of Foreign Affairs. Peace activists, however, can apply this to our own purposes. Just follow the directions, and then use it to express your own views. ______________________________
Dear friends,
Many of us recognize the importance of the Internet as the new battleground for Israel's image. It's time to do it better, and coordinate our on-line efforts on behalf of Israel. An Israeli software company have developed a free, safe and useful tool for us - the Internet Megaphone.
Please go to www.giyus.org, download the Megaphone, and you will receive daily updates with instant links to important internet polls, problematic articles that require a talk back, etc.
We need 100,000 Megaphone users to make a difference. So, please distribute this mail to all Israel's supporters.
Do it now. For Israel.
Amir Gissin
Director
Public Affairs (Hasbara) Department
Ministry of Foreign Affairs, Jerusalem
Joanne | August 1, 2006, 1:30am | #
To anyone who thinks the Zionists haven't perfected the use of manipulating the internet, just as they manipulate the mainstream media, this was sent to me by a Jewish peace activist friend in Jerusalem:The following letter was sent by Israel's Ministry of Foreign Affairs. Peace activists, however, can apply this to our own purposes. Just follow the directions, and then use it to express your own views. ______________________________
Dear friends,
Many of us recognize the importance of the Internet as the new battleground for Israel's image. It's time to do it better, and coordinate our on-line efforts on behalf of Israel. An Israeli software company have developed a free, safe and useful tool for us - the Internet Megaphone.
Please go to www.giyus.org, download the Megaphone, and you will receive daily updates with instant links to important internet polls, problematic articles that require a talk back, etc.
We need 100,000 Megaphone users to make a difference. So, please distribute this mail to all Israel's supporters.
Do it now. For Israel.
Amir Gissin
Director
Public Affairs (Hasbara) Department
Ministry of Foreign Affairs, Jerusalem
Joanne | August 1, 2006, 1:31am | #
To anyone who thinks the Zionists haven't perfected the use of manipulating the internet, just as they manipulate the mainstream media, this was sent to me by a Jewish peace activist friend in Jerusalem:The following letter was sent by Israel's Ministry of Foreign Affairs. Peace activists, however, can apply this to our own purposes. Just follow the directions, and then use it to express your own views. ______________________________
Dear friends,
Many of us recognize the importance of the Internet as the new battleground for Israel's image. It's time to do it better, and coordinate our on-line efforts on behalf of Israel. An Israeli software company have developed a free, safe and useful tool for us - the Internet Megaphone.
Please go to www.giyus.org, download the Megaphone, and you will receive daily updates with instant links to important internet polls, problematic articles that require a talk back, etc.
We need 100,000 Megaphone users to make a difference. So, please distribute this mail to all Israel's supporters.
Do it now. For Israel.
Amir Gissin
Director
Public Affairs (Hasbara) Department
Ministry of Foreign Affairs, Jerusalem
laser | August 1, 2006, 1:36am | #
If you go to http://tinyurl.com/eu69z and click on the right column, about 2/3 of the way down, you can view two videos that show the Hezbolla at its evil worst:1) Hizbullah missile fire from within the village of Kafr Qana
2) Hizbullah use of civilian shields
Here's another video showing the cowardly Hizbollah firing from behind civilians:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jS1fX3b-gp
laser | August 1, 2006, 2:03am | #
A fascinating analysis of "Who is killing Lebanese civilians? Historical and Investigative Research" - 1 August 2006 by Francisco Gil-White, can be viewed at http://www.hirhome.com/israel/hezbollah6.htm andhttp://www.hirhome.com/israel/hezbollah6_2.htm
The conclusion is, "It is Hezbollah that is killing the Lebanese civilians. Some of them directly, when they refuse to act as human shields for the Hezbollah cowards, and some of them indirectly, when the Hezbollah cowards force them to stand in front of the Israeli counterattack. So much for the fierce ‘pride’ of the Islamists (and small wonder that they need the ‘international community’ to come and save them)."
laser | August 1, 2006, 2:47am | #
A Lebanese blog says that Hezbollah filled the house in Qana with crippled children who couldn't run away. It then placed a rocket launcher above them, and waited.http://www.libanoscopie.com/fulldoc.asp?doccode=994&cat=2
laser | August 1, 2006, 5:54am | #
Hezbollywood? Evidence mounts that Qana collapse and deaths were staged.See http://tinyurl.com/zkzun .
Ken | August 1, 2006, 8:35am | #
Well, Val, I try not to make crazy strong claims when I don't know, unlike others. Folks are making claims like "Hezbollah targets/hides by etc. civilians, the IDF does not (though the IDF has slain far more civilians and this started with Hiz attacking a military target), Israel is not the aggressor (though they have invaded Lebanon now three times and made countless incursions into Gaza and the West Bank), Hez is under orders from Iran and Syria (plausible, but we just don't know)." For my part I have tried to stick to what I know and tried to avoid philo-or anti-Semitism. We know that hundreds of Lebanese are dead at the hands of the IDF. The IDF claims they were just trying to get to Hiz but of course they claim that. Show a little skepticism for pete's sake! We also know that traditionally civilian infrastructure such as power plants, civilian housing, roads, etc have been hit. We know Hiz has fired rockets at Israeli cities (do we know Haifa has no military value or troop prescence?). We also know that Red Cross and UN employees have been hit by IDF and that both of these third party observers laid the blame SQUARELY on the IDF (sorry, thats what they said, or are they anti-semites too?).One of the most surprising thing is that Israel actually announced at the beginning of their operations that they were motivated by collective punishment, that is, punishing the Lebanese government and people for what Hez has done. Libertarians think it wrong for A to force B to pay for C, so how much more wrong for A to kill B to punish C? But of course, principle and reason seems non-existent with the more avid Israel supporters.
If a drunken Mel Gibson did indeed call out, "Jews are responsible for all the wars in the world," then there can be only one place for a man who believes this: as the next Secretary General of the United Nations.
laser | August 1, 2006, 12:31pm | #
From the Washington Times:U.N. Secretary-General Kofi Annan falsely accuses Israel of deliberately attacking members of the United Nations Interim Force in Lebanon (UNIFIL), even as Hezbollah repeatedly targets U.N. peacekeepers. Last Monday, an Internet site called Little Green Footballs notes that the United Nations issued a press release reporting that an unarmed U.N. observer was critically wounded by small arms fire originating from a position controlled by Hezbollah. He was airlifted to an Israeli hospital for treatment. The following day, Hezbollah opened fire on a U.N. convoy, forcing it to turn back. On Friday, U.N. forces issued a press release reporting that "Hezbollah fired from the vicinity of five U.N. positions" in southern Lebanon, and that the number of troops in a Ghanaian battalion of the U.N. is "somewhat reduced" due to Hezbollah firing from near the U.N. positions, which provokes retaliatory shelling from the Israeli side.
In sum, Hezbollah -- along with its enablers in Tehran and Damascus -- bears full responsibility for the carnage in both Israel and Lebanon.
laser | August 1, 2006, 3