Take Two for California’s Marijuana Legalization Push

Proposition 19, the pioneering effort to legalize marijuana in California, failed in 2010, but not by much, and since then two states, Washington and Colorado, have succeeded in ending its prohibition. So activists in California are giving it another try. Courtesy of KTVU:

A new voter initiative to legalize marijuana in California was cleared for signature gathering Thursday by Secretary of State Debra Bowen.

Supporters of the measure, who call it the California Cannabis Hemp Initiative 2014, now have 150 days, or until Feb. 24, to collect 504,760 signatures to place it on the November 2014 ballot, Bowen said.

The initiative would decriminalize the possession, use, cultivation and sale of marijuana and hemp, the plant from which marijuana is made.

It would instruct the Legislature to pass laws licensing and taxing commercial sales of marijuana and setting a standard for determining when a driver is impaired and should barred from driving.

Proposition 19 failed by 53 percent of the vote. Given that California would no longer be “the first,” maybe there will be more support and less fear this time around.

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  • Paul.||

    California needs to legalize more than just marijuana.

  • Paul.||

    Oh, and if we were to use the correlation = causation theory for a moment, most people agree that California is one of the most progressive states in the Union. If progressivism is 'against' the drug war, then places like Massachusetts and California should have been the first places to legalize marijuana. Does that prove that progressives aren't that interested in ending the drug war?

  • Bo Cara Esq.||

    Well, the only two states with legalized marijuana are Colorado and Washington, rather blue states. Additionally, states that allow medical marijuana tend to be 'blue' states.

  • Palin's Buttplug||

    Shhh! The Peanut Gallery here thinks that Dogdick, AL is the epitome of freedom.

  • Irish||

    Yeah, legal pot is the only thing necessary for freedom. Who cares about confiscatory tax rates, police brutality, eminent domain abuse, regulations that drive small businesses into the ground...that's why California should legalize pot. That way people won't care so much that they're in the unemployment line, since at least they'll be stoned.

  • Bo Cara Esq.||

    I am happy to agree with you that California is quite far from the epitome of freedom, but I submit Alabama is about the same distance. Their draconian anti-immigrant laws alone demonstrate that.

  • The Immaculate Trouser||

    Colorado is not a "rather blue state", it's a red state trending purple.

    Washington is a blue state, but a somewhat atypical one (has fantastic gun rights laws, for example).

  • The Immaculate Trouser||

    It is telling that neither of the states which legalized are conventional representatives of the left/right cultural split.

  • db||

    I wouldn't call any state that still bans machineguns "fantastic" on gun laws. There are probably 20-30 states that are better than Washington on guns overall.

  • Bo Cara Esq.||

    Colorado has a Democratic governor and legislature. It went 'blue' in 2008 and 2012. Both of its US senators are Democrats.

    I am not sure what more evidence of it being 'a rather blue state' you would like.

  • The Immaculate Trouser||

    The Colorado House flipped Dem in 2012, and the Senate is split right down the middle between Rep and Dem. It used to be reliably red. Arguing that CO is a blue state because of the 2008 and 2012 Presidential elections would be like arguing that Iowa is a blue state on those same grounds, or that AZ was a blue state when it had Napolitano as Governor for 8 years.

    It is a formerly red state trending purple.

  • Heroic Mulatto||

    Why would progressives end a war they initiated?

  • Bo Cara Esq.||

    -Why would progressives end a war they initiated?

    Progressives initiated the war on drugs?

  • John C. Randolph||

    Yep. Their first big project after the attempted genocide of the plains indians was alcohol prohibition.

    -jcr

  • Bo Cara Esq.||

    I recall reading that many progressives were involved in prohibition, but that the movement's strength came more from rural, evangelical supporters, with leaders such as the famous 'Billy Sunday'.

    I have not read about the progressives being behind the 'attempted genocide of the plains Indians.' Can you point me to something on this.

  • Ornithorhynchus||

    You may be making the common mistake of judging historical political movements by today's conditions.

    19th and early 20th Century Progressivism was quite popular among Evangelicals and rural people (especially in the West).

  • Palin's Buttplug||

    Whatever you call them, today's Evangelicals are the real enemy of liberty in the United States.

  • Anonymous Coward||

    Whatever you call them, today's Evangelicals are the real enemy of liberty in the United States.

    Yes, pay no attention to the postmillenialists of Progressive movement who still seek to disarm the populace and impose their rather fluid brand of morality upon them.

  • Bo Cara Esq.||

    -You may be making the common mistake of judging historical political movements by today's conditions.

    Does not this cut the other way (19th and 20th Century Progressivism must have at the least been somewhat different than today's version if it was 'quite popular among Evangelicals and rural people').

  • Heroic Mulatto||

    You'd think, but no.

  • Bo Cara Esq.||

    Really? So I can count on today's progressives to call for bans on teaching evolution?

  • Ornithorhynchus||

    Yes, it does cut both ways. Very few modern Progressives support Jim Crow segregation or Eugenics, for instance.

    But there is still a very large Prohibitionist wing among Progressives-- think of the Bloomberg types. An outright ban on alcohol gets little support these days, but other forms of Prohibition are pretty common among Progressives.

  • Square||

    At the turn of the twentieth century there was a world of difference between a Progressive and a Liberal.

    Words may stay the same, but their meaning rarely does.

  • SIV||

    1914 Woodrow Wilson signs Harrison Narcotics Tax Act.

    In 1935 the president Franklin D. Roosevelt, publicly supported the adoption of the Uniform State Narcotic Drug Act. The New York Times used the headline "ROOSEVELT ASKS NARCOTIC WAR AID

    1937 FDR signs Marihuana Tax Act

    1938 FDR signs Federal Food, Drug, and Cosmetic Act

    1961 JFK signs UN Single Convention on Narcotic Drugs.

    1968 LBJ outlaws LSD.

    1970 Nixon signs Controlled Substance Act (implementing the provisions of the 1961 treaty)

  • Bo Cara Esq.||

    Is Nixon considered a progressive?

  • Palin's Buttplug||

    Nixon was a conservative progressive like Bush the Lesser.

    Jimmy Carter was a libertarian - with all his deregulation of air, trucking, banking, energy, and even beer.

  • Bo Cara Esq.||

    -conservative progressive

    What does that even mean?

  • SIV||

    Teddy Roosevelt


    And what the Ayn Rand character said,you troll-puppet.

  • Paul.||

    -conservative progressive

    What does that even mean?

    The women's suffrage movement was a kind of conservative progressivism.

    It was on the one hand, demanding more rights and empowerment of women while at the same time moralizing and decrying the debauchery of society. This country briefly flirted with Democrats being liberals. This existed mostly in the eighties and early nineties, then 'liberals' transformed down the hard road of progressivism, grabbed the BAN Hammer and never looked back.

  • Francisco d Anconia||

    You truly are a fucking idiot.

  • Francisco d Anconia||

    Jimmy Carter was a libertarian

    I suppose that explains why you think you're a libertarian.

  • Anonymous Coward||

    Is Nixon considered a progressive?

    Yes. Wage controls, price controls, created the EPA, signed the Clean Air Act, (sending hordes of newly minted bureaucrats out to harass the people who didn't do the proper "impact studies"), and ended the gold standard, leaving the Federal Reserve free to inflate the dollar into oblivion.

  • Paul.||

    Is Nixon considered a progressive?

    by modern standards, not only yes, but hell yes. Wage and price controls, the creation of the EPA, and a blind, unbending faith in wise, top-down leadership. Nixon was a progressive's progressive.

    In fact, it was a couple of decades ago that a progressive once said to me that Nixon was his favorite president, then went on to list all the great things Nixon did for the country. He claimed (and rightly so) that Nixon was the most under-appreciated progressive president.

  • Paul.||

    Or what Anonymous Coward said. If you're not first on Hit undt Run, you're last.

  • Bo Cara Esq.||

    -Is Nixon considered a progressive?

    by modern standards, not only yes, but hell yes.

    Well, this is my point, when Nixon was president it was not 'by modern standards.' For his time he was a figure of the right.

  • Eduard van Haalen||

    He was righty because of his stances on crime and school busing, and his bashing of the media. Can anyone think of anything else?

  • Eduard van Haalen||

    I meant that these are the only righty positions of Nixon's that I can think of. The rest struck me as progressive.

  • SIV||

    Ronald Reagan was the "right wing" Republican candidate in the 1968 GOP primary.

  • Hyperion||

    Progressives initiated the war on drugs?

    Holy fucking bejeebus, amigo. You ever hear of a little thing called prohibition?

    Not a fan of history, are you?

  • Bo Cara Esq.||

    As I said I have read of progressives supporting Prohibition, but they were hardly the only group doing so, and I do not see that it was the most important one.

  • Hyperion||

    Have you ever posted at Politico?

  • ||

    Dude, Progressives are fucking Puritans with nicer clothes and Apple products.

  • Square||

    Complicated relationship between progressives and drugs. A lot of progressives are ON drugs, and therefore have long been scared of calling for legalization, and that's become something of a habit, I think.

    The Democratic Party has also been skirting a line for the last forty years of courting the drugged-out youth vote (at least in CA) while trying not to expose themselves to "soft on crime" charges from the right. This leads to a distinct schizophrenia in the political face of the progressive relationship with drugs.

    I believe CA was the first to propose legalization, though - it just didn't fly, at least in part because of threats from the federal government.

    People also forget that CA has a small but extremely weird and rabid conservative Christian faction that turns out in droves to vote against legalization of both weed and gay marriage.

  • Ken Shultz||

    The vote isn't going to be about any of those "factions" you mentioned.

    It'll mostly be about the Mexican-American vote. And they're mostly just Democrats because they think the Republicans are entirely hostile to their very existence.

    Other than that, they're pretty religious and pretty conservative culturally--which is why they do things like vote against gay marriage. The LGBT and ex-hippies in San Francisco and Hollywood make all the headlines, but they're not the ones driving the bus.

    "a small but extremely weird and rabid conservative Christian faction that turns out in droves to vote against legalization of both weed and gay marriage."

    I've never heard black people described that way, but 70% of California's black voters voted to ban gay marriage.

    http://www.washingtontimes.com...../?page=all

    Just because the progressives of Hollywood and San Francisco claim to be speaking for minorities--doesn't mean it's true.

  • Bo Cara Esq.||

    Of course, blacks are only about 7% of the California population so I imagine some other groups had to turn out against gay marriage there.

  • Ken Shultz||

    Actually, 70% of 7% is almost 5% of the voters out there! ...and that alone can put an issue over majority line. Here's another little secret: black inner city voters aren't exactly big fans of illegal immigration.

    Oh, and did you see the part about all the Hispanic voters who are culturally conservative--an overwhelming majority of which voted against gay marriage?

    They're kind of important, too. ...and no, the progressives of Hollywood and San Francisco can't speak and aren't speaking for them either.

    In other words, just because they're Democrats doesn't mean they favored gay marriage--and it doesn't mean they'll favor legalizing marijuana either.

  • Bo Cara Esq.||

    You may want to peruse these charts.

    http://www.cnn.com/ELECTION/20.....al=CAI01p1

  • Ken Shultz||

    That's interesting.

    The stat I'd focus on: Non-White - No College 57% for Prop 8 and 43% against.

    That is a mirror image of the gap between white college graduates and white non-college graduates. 57% of white college graduates voted against Prop 8 and 43% voted for it.

    ...but that's not the way it works for non-whites!

    Non-whites with college voted to ban gay marriage 55% for it to 43% against it--in almost the exact same percentages as non-whites with no college.

    In other words, it appears to be about culture rather than education level with non-whites.

    The reason I'm harping on this is becasue it flies in the face of the Progressive narrative.

    The Progressives would have us believe that there are these minorities out there who are liberal in ideology--it's just that these white, Christian fundamentalists are holding liberal policies down by voting against the liberal policies that minorities want.

    I think that's bullshit virtually everywhere outside of the South. I certainly think it's bullshit in California! Whites in California appear to be generally more accepting of things like gay marriage than ethnic minorities.

    I suppose it shouldn't be surprising to find out that Progressive spin doctors are full of crap, but I think a lot of people have bought their narrative.

  • Bo Cara Esq.||

    What an odd one for you to focus on. You mentioned blacks and I rebutted that they were a small portion of the electorate. You then mentioned Hispanics and I offered evidence that they were nearly evenly split on the issue.

    To me the most important table is the one that demonstrates that 80% of liberals voted for gay marriage while 85% of conservatives opposed it. I do not think any other groups had this lopsided of a lean.

  • Ken Shultz||

    Those were people who self-identified as such--and I suspect culturally conservative minorities don't self-identify so much as "conservative".

    "You then mentioned Hispanics and I offered evidence that they were nearly evenly split on the issue."

    They weren't evenly split on the issue.

    Look at the numbers again:

    Yes = Ban gay marriage.

    No = Don't ban gay marriage.

    Vote by Race

    White

    49% Yes

    51% No

    African-American

    70% Yes

    30% No

    Latino

    53% Yes

    47% No

    Asian

    49% Yes

    51% No

    Other

    51% Yes

    49% No

    White people and Asians were both evenly split. Latinos and African-Americans are what passed Prop 8.

    53/47 is actually a pretty nice gap--especially considering that Obama only won 53% of the popular vote in 2008. And, at any rate, Latino voters appear to be more culturally conservative than whites voters.

    If it had just been up to white voters, Prop 8 would have been rejected. It passed, and that was becasue of minority voters.

  • Bo Cara Esq.||

    If you want to stake your claim for an ethnic generalization on a 53/47 split, then have at it.

  • Paul.||

    Ken still made his point, and if you want to get tetchy about it, black women voted against gays by 75%.

    Latino men in the 30-44 age range voted against gay marriage by 60%.

    If I remember my statistics correctly, Latinos voted for Barack Obama by 80%.

    I'm just not convinced that there's a super-secret white conservative Republican Christian sect in California controlling the polls. If it were, California wouldn't be uniformly controlled by Democrats who could "enact a progressive agenda unopposed" if I remember the quote correctly.

  • Square||

    For my part, I never said anything about white people. I count Jehovah's Witnesses as a freaky conservative christian minority, too.

    My point was that it becomes such a cliche that CA is controlled by crazy Hollywood liberals that people forget that there are other groups here.

  • ||

    Umm, clearly you've never met whites from Orange County.

  • General Butt Naked||

    Are they like the whites of west virginia?

  • Ken Shultz||

    Awesome film.

  • Hyperion||

    Are they like the whites of west virginia?

    I had done told that woman not to cook me no damn slimey eggs!

  • Ken Shultz||

    I've spent years with whites from Orange County--Orange County ain't what it used to be.

    Hell, Orange County isn't as white as it used to be either. More than a third of Orange County is Hispanic now.

    Look at this map:

    http://projects.latimes.com/el.....s-by-city/

    All those green spots you see north of Irvine? those areas are heavily Latino. You've got a ton of Filipinos living there, too--add in other Asians, and Orange County isn't even majority non-Hispanic white (they only make up 44% of Orange County's population).

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/O.....ornia#2010

    There are still a lot of culturally conservative white people living south of Irvine, but Orange County isn't the land of Richard Nixon and Wally George anymore. Last time I was in downtown Santa Ana, the place was quinceanera shops.

    That white conservative Orange County perception is game over.

  • Ken Shultz||

    Here's another stat for you...

    http://www.latimes.com/news/lo......htmlstory

    A majority of people in Los Angeles county voted to ban gay marriage!

    Seems like everywhere you go in California, the more ethnic minorities you get, the more culturally conservative they are. It's what you'd expect, really.

    People who move here from Mexico often do so because they're at the bottom of the economic ladder where they came from--and just about everywhere you go in the world, the poorer people are, the more religious they are. I'd bet dollars to churros that Mexican immigrants to the U.S. are more religious than Mexico is as a whole.

  • ||

    I was just in Garden Grove for work today. I'm familiar with the demographic shift, and I appreciate the availability of awesome Vietnamese food in Westminster and Thai food in Santa Ana, but the remaining OC whites do skew affluent, religious and politically conservative.

  • Ken Shultz||

    You're talking about 44% of the population of Orange County, though. And subtract from that--there isn't anything culturally conservative about the people of Laguna Beach or Irvine. They're like the white people in the South Bay. Might as well be in Manhattan Beach!

    My point is...to the original poster up yonder...the rabid conservative Christians of California aren't what they used to be--not even in Orange County. The deciding factor isn't going to be them--it's going to be how Hispanics and other minorities vote.

    The idea of finding white Christian conservatives driving the issues in California is about as outdated as the idea of finding hippies in Venice (I don't know why the tourists go there) or a bunch of kids making it on the streets of Hollywood as a hair-metal band. Those cliches have been dead for decades. Although you can still see them on YouTube.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3xcZ5sGsINg

  • Ted S.||

    No offense, but don't you think Jesse knows of the region in which he lives?

  • Ken Shultz||

    Yeah, we know the same neighborhoods.

    He said I must not know any whites from Orange County--try to keep up, will ya?

  • General Butt Naked||

    This is why there's no Orange County libertarians.

  • ||

    Ken is right in much of his assessment. WASP conservatives in Orange County are definitely a waning phenomenon. I'd disagree with his take on Irvine (which has gotten very East Asian anyway), and I think Laguna Beach is a pretty small population center compared to the gated communities that are nearby.

    I was mostly taking a crack "a small but extremely weird and rabid conservative Christian faction that turns out in droves to vote against legalization of both weed and gay marriage" was being used to refer to black people.

    GBN, you're going to hurt A Serious Man's feelings! He's in Irvine.

  • Ken Shultz||

    "I was mostly taking a crack "a small but extremely weird and rabid conservative Christian faction that turns out in droves to vote against legalization of both weed and gay marriage" was being used to refer to black people."

    Pretending he must be talking about black people--that was my feeble attempt at irony.

    It doesn't always translate well into text.

  • General Butt Naked||

    GBN, you're going to hurt A Serious Man's feelings! He's in Irvine.

    After reading Ken's hurtful comments he'll probably reassess his ideological standing (and also turn into a mexican anchor baby).

  • Paul.||

    but the remaining OC whites do skew affluent, religious and politically conservative.

    True or not, it's quite, quite clear that they don't have a hammerlock on California politics.

  • The Immaculate Trouser||

    As far as I can tell, the only thing white OC Republicans affect in CA is which shrub gets the nod to lose the Senate campaign.

    They may make a lot of noise, but fundamentally that demographic has not been responsible for any significant CA political trend since the early 90s.

  • ||

    I don't think I ever said anything that would indicate that WASP conservatives have a "hammerlock" on CA politics. Clearly there's a socially conservative streak largely among religiously affiliated ethnic minorities in CA who vote Dem, but reject chunks of socially liberal suite of ideas.

    I was responding to Ken's snark about black people as serious. Implying that WASP conservatives in OC were a make or break demographic for Prop 8. They nudged the percent in favor higher in OC than in LA or SD, but not by much.

  • Square||

    For my part, I was talking about the first time legalization failed. And I wasn't talking only about white people.

    I grew up in OC, but I haven't lived there for twenty years. I go back at least once a year, and it does seem to have liberalled up. Even the televangelists seem to be working for a more cosmopolitan image.

    I also lived in Oakland for 15 years, and I've lived essentially in Richmond for 5 years, so I know from creepy conservative christian black people, too.

    My main point was that when gay marriage and pot legalization come up, the conservative religious groups come out in a force disproportionate to their actual numbers in the general population.

  • Ken Shultz||

    Hitler?

    It's mostly just Hispanic immigrants, LGBT, and Muslims.

    I've known a bunch of people from all three groups, too, and they were all harmless.

    Nowhere near as bad as the progressives in Sacramento and Washington who treat my paycheck like their scratching post.

  • Sevo||

    I give up; who might this be?

  • Ken Shultz||

    You didn't really think they were going to vote against the first black president, did you?

    I mean, the civil rights movement happened before I was born, but all those baby boomers out there? They remember Jim Crow.

    When black kids couldn't go to school and couldn't come into the same restaurants as white people? that isn't something they read about in American history class. They remember that...

    Expecting them to vote against the first black president might be a little unreasonable.

  • Sevo||

    Mercan, did you get a new handle?

  • Francisco d Anconia||

    I was suspicious, but wasn't ready to make the call.

    70% probability.

  • Sevo||

    If not, it's someone working the stats to buttress that innuendo.

  • Irish||

    What argument? You posted vague innuendo that didn't actually go anywhere.

  • General Butt Naked||

    He could at least quit denying that it's him. Or, you know, maybe not post in such an idiosyncratic style, then deny it.

  • Heroic Mulatto||

    Observe the contempt he has for us as he thinks we'd be fooled by him saying he's not the same damn person, making the same damn fallacious arguments over and over, using the exact same vocabulary, grammatical structure, and rhetorical tropes.

    The sad thing is that is he is actually so deluded that he think he's smarter than us.

  • Francisco d Anconia||

    Meh. He's getting better. I wasn't sure for almost 5 posts.

  • Heroic Mulatto||

    California, Texas, and New York have a lot of electoral votes and a large Hispanic minority.

    Dumbass.

  • Heroic Mulatto||

    What does "swing states" have to do with it? We're talking about a strategy that attempts to attack traditional Democratic strongholds. If the GOP can get California or New York in addition to Texas, which they already would have, they win.

    And because of winner-takes-all, the money and time spent to pick up all those smaller states isn't as good as an investment as trying to flip a large minority group in a big state.

  • Ken Shultz||

    "Well then you explain why so much head scratching in the Republican Party is dedicated to Hispanics and almost none is dedicated to Blacks."

    I don't know about Republicans, but if you think we libertarians should work harder to present libertarian solutions to issues that effect problems in the black community, then I think you're absolutely right.

    Incidentally, I think the NAACP has largely adopted our stance in regards to the drug war.

  • Sevo||

    Blip on the Scanner|9.27.13 @ 11:04PM|#
    "Well then you explain why so much head scratching in the Republican Party is dedicated to Hispanics and almost none is dedicated to Blacks."

    I'd much rather hear why you are obsessed with blacks. Do you have a widdle-bitty weenie and worry that black guys have bigger ones? Is that it?

  • Ken Shultz||

    I have an obsession? I've been making a point about the way various groups voted on Prop 8, and how that flies in the face of what a lot of people think is happening in California, politically...

    "Why aren't we hearing about their natural "entrepreneurial spirit" and "family values?" There is a reason for this, and you have to think critically to understand it."

    I don't know if that's "obsessive", but it's definitely creepy.

  • Sevo||

    Blip on the Scanner|9.27.13 @ 11:45PM|#
    "I was making a point about how stupid that argument was when Sevo used it."

    Naah, you were trying to avoid being called on your bullshit.
    Go fuck your daddy.

  • Sevo||

    "You have yet to provide a response that addresses the comment. Based on your insult, it has obviously stirred up great confusion."

    Nope, see below:
    "That comment is worthy of an ignoramus.
    Is that OK?"
    Oh, and go fuck your daddy.

  • Sevo||

    Blip on the Scanner|9.27.13 @ 10:48PM|#
    ..."Why don't you address my comment instead of resorting to an ad hominum attack?"

    Sure:
    That comment is worthy of an ignoramus.
    Is that OK?

  • Hyperion||

    Complicated relationship between progressives and drugs

    There's an even more complicated relationship between progressives and logic or reason.

  • Ted S.||

    It's not complicated at all: there is no relationship between progressives and logic or reason.

  • Palin's Buttplug||

    But conservatives are the dumbest life form on the planet - witness Creationism and other delusions.

  • Sevo||

    Palin's Buttplug|9.27.13 @ 11:14PM|#
    "But conservatives are the dumbest life form on the planet"

    Idjit, not all conservatives are as dumb as your daddy.

  • Hyperion||

    You're living proof that this is not true. Go away, proglodyte. The delusion that the earth is only 6000 years old is not nearly as dumb as the shit that you spout here. Also, you don't have any fucking clue at all about creationism, it's just a theory, like all the other theories about the origins of life, you fucking luddite.

  • Bo Cara Esq.||

    -you don't have any fucking clue at all about creationism, it's just a theory, like all the other theories about the origins of life

    Wait, what?.

  • Hyperion||

    Wait, what?

    Ok, tell me how you know that life originated on it's own on this planet, or in this galaxy, and was not the product of a higher intelligence?

    Tell me how you know that in a universe that is more than 13 billion years old, that there has never been any intelligent intervention into the process of life.

    I'm waiting to be educated here...

  • Bo Cara Esq.||

    I just expressed my genuine surprise to see someone defending creationism here. I find it less than productive to debate that issue with people who hold that view, so I am afraid I will not be the one to 'educate' you here.

  • Hyperion||

    I just expressed my genuine surprise to see someone defending creationism here.

    Good Gawd, man, what a fucking cop out. Are you a politician?

    You apparently do not want to debate.

    You can't even define what creationism means, let alone debate against it.

    You didn't answer my question or even attempt to open debate. You just took you prog talking point and deflected.

  • Sevo||

    Hyperion|9.28.13 @ 12:01AM|#
    "You apparently do not want to debate."

    Hint.
    There is no debate.

  • Heroic Mulatto||

    I just expressed my genuine surprise to see someone defending creationism here

    Really, bro? I can point out that the luminiferous aether was the best theory available at the time for explaining light and electromagnetism, but that doesn't mean I don't think quantum theory is a more accurate explanation of the phenomenon.

  • Bo Cara Esq.||

    I think when the 'debate' comes down to discussion of such inherently unscientific issues such as 'Tell me how you know that in a universe that is more than 13 billion years old, that there has never been any intelligent intervention into the process of life' I would be wasting time. Kudos to those who do otherwise.

  • Heroic Mulatto||

  • Sevo||

    Hyperion|9.27.13 @ 11:46PM|#
    "Ok, tell me how you know that life originated on it's own on this planet, or in this galaxy, and was not the product of a higher intelligence?"

    Tell us how you know of this 'higher intelligence'.

  • William of Purple||

    Tell us how you know of this 'higher intelligence'.

    There is no concrete reality that explains its own existence.

    No matter where you find intelligibility and specified complexity you will always see complexity behind it.

    ie. A dictionary never developed from an explosion in a printing press.

  • Ken Shultz||

    "The delusion that the earth is only 6000 years old is not nearly as dumb as the shit that you spout here."

    +1

    What's worse? A president who subscribes to a religion that says the world was created 6,000 years ago, or a president who thinks that ObamaCare is a great idea?

  • General Butt Naked||

    I could give a shit what someone believes as long as they aren't advocating men with guns compel me to participate in their harebrained, economy destroying schemes.

  • Sevo||

    GBN,
    I didn't see anyone offering those alternatives.
    I saw someone suggesting that a 'higher intelligence' was the cause of life.

  • General Butt Naked||

    I was replying to Ken. He gave the choice between a creationist president and one who gives us obamacare.

    As long as the jesus freak doesn't want to force his ideas on me using the law, I couldn't care less what he believes.

  • ||

    What if a President takes your tax dollars to fund creationism?

    I'm looking at you Office of Faith Based Community Initiatives!

    (I don't really care, but the gin insisted I mention it!)

  • Ken Shultz||

    I don't want my money used for that, but then I don't want my money used to nationalize GM on behalf of the UAW either.

    I certainly don't think one misuse of my money is emphatically worse than they other just becasue one is religious in nature.

  • ||

    Federal funding of religious activities makes me nervous because it breeds dependency and compromises the integrity of faith organizations. Maybe it isn't any different than nationalizing GM, but it tweaks me the wrong way.

  • General Butt Naked||

    The faith based initiatives need to go right the fuck now.

  • ||

    it's just a theory, like all the other theories about the origins of life, you fucking luddite.

    TEACH THE CONTROVERSY!

  • buddhastalin||

    For some reason, legalizing gay marriage and weed in CA has to fail first before it can succeed. According to a September PPIC poll:

    ...[S]upport for [pot] legalization is above 50 percent for the first time among Californians (52%), while 45 percent are opposed.... Democrats (64%), independents (60%), and men (57%) are more likely than Republicans (45%) and women (47%) to favor legalization. About six in 10 whites (63%) and blacks (61%) are in favor, Asians are divided (48% legal, 45% not legal), and about six in 10 Latinos are opposed (62%).

    More than six in 10 Californians (61%) and likely voters (68%) think the federal government should not enforce federal marijuana laws in states that allow its use...

    ...[R]ecord-high majorities of adults (61%) and likely voters (64%) say they favor allowing gay marriage.... Strong majorities of Democrats (76%) and independents (67%) favor allowing same-sex marriage, compared to 44 percent of Republicans (53% oppose). Although support continues to be higher among young Californians, a majority of those age 55 and older (55%) are also in favor for the first time. Support has increased 15 points among mainline Protestants since May (from 55% to 70%). Support falls short of a majority among Republicans (44%), conservatives (39%), Central Valley residents (49%), blacks (44%), those with lower educations (48%), and evangelical Protestants (23%).
  • Obese American||

    *PEDANTRY ALERT*

    "Proposition 19 failed by 53 percent of the vote."

    Shouldn't it be it failed by 53-47 against? It didn't lose by 53%.

  • Acosmist||

    It's adorable that you call that legalization. Because "legal" means "highly regulated and the feds can shoot you and your dog at any time."

  • Francisco d Anconia||

    Baby steps.

  • Sevo||

    Maybe Humboldt County will vote for it this time.

  • Francisco d Anconia||

  • Archduke von Pantsfan||

    I'm sorry, where you saying something? There's women's volleyball on the Big Ten Network.

  • Hyperion||

    I'm sure that our government is paying attention. They will take the lead of Greece on that, and Egypt in outlawing the Muslim Brotherhood, to say that they need to outlaw teabagger extremists and libertarian anarchists.

    You know they want to.

  • Ted S.||

    Belgium banned the Vlaams Bloc a few years back.

  • Francisco d Anconia||

    Well, maybe the anarchists. ;-)

  • Sevo||

    Outlawing it isn't gonna do what they want, but the outfit isn't easy to like.
    They admit to being racists.

  • Calidissident||

    There's no real good guys here. Golden Dawn has been complicit in violence in recent years, violence that has often gone unpunished, not surprising given the connections with Greek police that Golden Dawn allegedly has. Banning the party and imprisoning them obviously goes too far, but a crackdown on the extreme, violent elements of GD is long overdue.

  • Sevo||

    Seems the parties involved need to be dealt with as criminals.
    Have to admit, that gets tough when there are connections to the cops. Given Greek post-war history, that's not hard to believe.

  • Sevo||

    Gee, I could have made that more confusing if I tried. Let's go with:
    Seems the *individuals* involved

  • Heroic Mulatto||

    Golden Dawn currently have 18 members in the Hellenic Parliament. There is no "suppression" of the party, other than what the dumb-shit party members bring upon themselves by murdering their ideological opponents and such.

  • Tulpa (LAOL-VA)||

    Somebody who claimed to be a member of GD is responsible for the murder. That's not remotely enough to justify jailing party leaders.

    That would be like jailing Rand Paul for the actions of his staffer that kicked the shit out of that anti-Paul protester back in 2010.

  • Calidissident||

    I meant to add "all" after "imprisoning them." There are definitely a lot of people in GD that should be in prison. They're are not simply some peaceful political party or movement being oppressed for unpopular views. See HM's link for proof of that

  • Tulpa (LAOL-VA)||

    Golden Dawn has been complicit in violence in recent years, violence that has often gone unpunished, not surprising given the connections with Greek police that Golden Dawn allegedly has.

    Examples? Looking at da wiki yields:

    one party member (Periandros) who was accused of attempted murder and not apprehended for 8 years;
    a clash with leftists who were trying to break up one of their demonstrations;
    an MP slapping a fellow MP who swatted him with a newspaper;
    an MP throwing a punch at the mayor of Athens who had earlier ordered a GD charity event broken up for excluding immigrants;
    and the recent killing of the anti-GD rapper by a self-proclaimed member of GD.

    That's weak sauce for jailing party leaders. And yes, I find their ideology abhorrent, but this is wrong and stupid because it will make them more sympathetic AND violent.

  • Irish||

    They are trying to declare it a criminal organization, which would not only bad the party but allow the government to imprison any member it wants.

    Yeah, why would they want to label an organization that attacks immigrants a criminal organization? What's criminal about an organization whose members assault immigrants and have attacked political opponents on live television?

    Go away, American. Your racism isn't wanted here.

  • Tulpa (LAOL-VA)||

    They don't have any proof that the organization itself was involved in that stuff. Back in the 2010 campaign, there was a Rand Paul staffer who knocked over and kicked the shit out of a female anti-Paul protester. Should Rand Paul be in jail?

  • Tulpa (LAOL-VA)||

    It's also a violation of the EU Constitution to do this, though I don't expect Brussels to give a shit since it's an anti-EU party.

  • Hyperion||

    Cali will be one of the last states to legalize MJ. Probably right after NJ, and right before MD.

    Progressives is just another word for totalitarian fucktard.

  • Palin's Buttplug||

    No, you rednecks will be the last.

    Count on it.

  • Heroic Mulatto||

    Rednecks don't smoke pot? What alternate universe do you hail from?

  • Archduke von Pantsfan||

    I don't smoke pot. I don't give a crap if someone else wants to tho.
    /not a redneck

  • General Butt Naked||

    Exactly.

    Though a lot of rednecks grow weed and might not like the legal competition.

  • Palin's Buttplug||

    But rednecks vote GOP. The War on Drugs will continue unabated.

    Here in Georgia a poor brokedown meth addled redneck votes GOP because he hates niggers. Although that makes no sense to a thinking person.

  • Heroic Mulatto||

    Meth addicts vote? How do they handle standing in line for so long?

  • ||

    I'm sorry, I didn't realize that the last three democrat presidents we've had actually repealed the WoD only to have it reinstated by the mean republicans that followed them.

    Jesus Christ you need to get back on your meds.

  • Hyperion||

    No, you rednecks will be the last.

    I'm a redneck? How so? I live in Maryland, I don't drive a tractor to work. I work in the city in a tech job.

    I just said that Maryland will be last. How are you making an argument against that?

    You are very, very fucking stupid. The fact that you don't realize that, is what is so sad.

  • Palin's Buttplug||

    I live in Georgia and am surrounded by Baptist Fundie assholes who hate freedom and vote GOP. So naturally I hate them.

    It is possible you live the mirror opposite - surrounded by progressive assholes who hate freedom I guess. Do they make you eat salads and fruit at meals?

  • Hyperion||

    It is possible you live the mirror opposite - surrounded by progressive assholes who hate freedom I guess

    No, it's not possible, it's a fact.

    Do they make you eat salads and fruit at meals?

    Do they make you eat salads and fruits at meals in Georgia?

    Prove it. I am here all day.

  • Bo Cara Esq.||

    I cannot agree with the disparagement made about 'rednecks' (many of whom I imagine might be friendlier to liberty than some may guess), but I personally think Alabama will outlast Maryland. Maryland at least allows for an affirmative defense if less than an ounce is owned for medical purposes.

  • Hyperion||

    Do you live in MD? Maryland has all sorts of 300 year old laws that can never be taken off the books. For instance, you can only buy evil beer in liquor stores. Fucking luddite statist state.

  • General Butt Naked||

    PA has gone for Obama in '08 and '12 and I think we'll have a libertarian president (other than Carter) before we legalize pot. Or hell, allow liquor to be sold in the grocery store.

    Some people don't know realize that economic progressives can be really socially conservative, or even racist. Here in pittsburgh a lot of people are very pro union, pro big government, pro entitlement culture, etc, but also have a klansman's view on gays, blacks and immigrants.

  • Hyperion||

    Or hell, allow liquor to be sold in the grocery store.

    I was just down in Charlottesville, VA.

    Wife and I went walking over to a bar nearby and as I was walking back to our room, I noticed that there was a Food Lion down the street. Then it just popped into my head that in VA, they sell beer in grocery stores. So I told her, hey let's go down to Food Lion, so that I can get beer in the grocery store!

  • General Butt Naked||

    I'll do that.

    That is, be in another state and buy a sixer at a gas station just because I can.

  • ||

    Then it just popped into my head that in VA, they sell beer in grocery stores.

    We make jokes about the California ABC (alcohol and beverage control), but seriously, what the fuck is wrong with other states? If I need booze: liquor, wine, beer, pruno, I go just about anywhere and they have it on the shelves.

    Nobody should be surprised with alcohol in its many and splendid forms shows up on a grocer's shelves!*

    *the gin made me say it!

  • seguin||

    Shit, in TX it's the same way, unless the county's dry. Mine just went wet, so yay me.

  • BakedPenguin||

    FL and NH both have beer and wine in groceries, liquor in separate stores. In NH, they are state stores, but their management is surprisingly competent, perhaps because they can judge prices by looking at other states' market-based stores. Also, SLD.

  • Bo Cara Esq.||

    Alabama actually allows localities to be 'dry.' I stick to my bet.

  • ||

    You know most of those dry counties are made that way through ballot initiatives right (same as when they go "wet")? If someone can't be arsed to go vote to keep the fucking busy bodies from doing stupid shit, they have no one to blame but themselves.

  • Francisco d Anconia||

  • Calidissident||

    Eh, as much as our politics suck, we will still legalize MJ before most of the country does. We are a liberal state, but that doesn't mean everyone voting against legalization is progressive. The people voting for legalization are disproportionately liberal. Most conservatives out here aren't supporting legalization, and I really don't see how anyone can seriously think MJ is going to be legalized in the Deep South before California.

    Hard drugs are a different story. I don't see them being legalized in any state in the foreseeable future

  • Hyperion||

    Eh, as much as our politics suck, we will still legalize MJ before most of the country does

    Most of the country, meaning every state except for Maryland and New Jersey. Which will be like the 47th or 48th state to do so.

  • The Immaculate Trouser||

    Agreed. I suspect that CA will be among the first 10 states to legalize, and probably the first large state to do so.

    The rest of the states on the top 10 list will probably be purple mountain/Pacific Northwestern states with perhaps one or two NW states for good measure.

  • Sevo||

    OT:
    D-town gets a bailout? How about Stockton?! Yeah, how about Stockton?
    "Jerry McNerney calls out President Obama. Stop ignoring problems in Stockton!"
    http://blog.sfgate.com/nov05el.....-stockton/

    Forget it pal; CA is a cash cow for his Dreaminess; he don't have to buy no votes there.

  • Archduke von Pantsfan||

    Master Chef Jr: So far I'm most disappointed Ramsay didn't make a kid break into tears.

  • Ted S.||

    I'd like to see somebody turn around and treat Ramsay the same way.

    By the same token, I'd like to see somebody treat Bitch Judy the same way she treats the litigants in her "courtroom".

  • Archduke von Pantsfan||

    I'm still confused as to why anyone would offer to be on her show? Fame?

  • ||

    I think all the court fees get paid for by the show, no?

  • General Butt Naked||

    Ramsay came up in the kitchens of paris, I'm sure he's gotten much worse at the hands of the frogs.

  • General Butt Naked||

    Where the hell is everybody? I finally get some time to post and everybody is gone. Do I smell that bad?

    Anyway, I'm goin' to the Chile Pepper Farm Festival tomorrow if any p-burgh reasoners wanna go. I'll be armed and wearing a Rancid tee, approach with caution.

  • Francisco d Anconia||

    GBN

    How did I miss the fact that you're a Yinzer? Will you be wearing tennis shoes and drinking a pop?

    Youz guyz! ;-)

  • General Butt Naked||

    There's a shit ton of us on here. Thought someone might be headin' to the festival. You know, wake up early, red up the house, take the gumband off of the newspaper and read it, drink a pop, eat a chipped ham sammich and head out to the fair.

  • Francisco d Anconia||

    I'm originally a Heyna. You westerners got nuthin on us.

    Goin up the Eynon to git a couple two, tree perogies. Heyna er no?

  • General Butt Naked||

    I've heard tell of a proggie invasion back east. Bloomberg's minions are coming in from NJ and NY. Should we in the west be worried?

  • Francisco d Anconia||

    That's been happening for 50 years. Half the population in eastern PA are NY/NJ retreads.

  • General Butt Naked||

    I bet they spend their time advocating for policies that if enacted would lead to the very same conditions that caused them to leave their former states. (poverty, crime, taxes, regulation, etc)

  • Francisco d Anconia||

    Same thing happens out west now. Californians leave CA for MT and the first thing they want are paved roads and curbs.

    I went back to PA this summer for my folk's 50th. All the farms are gone, replaced by summer homes of folks from the city. I wouldn't care so much about the farms...but why did it have to be New Yorkers?

  • gaoxiaen||

    I like jumbo sammiches.

  • gaoxiaen||

    With a vitamin I (Iron City Beer, in case you're unenlightened).

  • General Butt Naked||

    Ma used ta make me a jumbo sammich with an ahn city before skewl evr mornin'.

  • Archduke von Pantsfan||

    They're ignoring you but engaging the trolls. What does that say!

  • General Butt Naked||

    I, uhhh...

    I don't even, ummm....

    *sobs*

  • Hyperion||

    Hey, some of us are here.

    What the fuck are you doing in Pennsyltucky?

  • General Butt Naked||

    What the fuck are you doing in Pennsyltucky?

    Sittin' around being legally armed. It's about the only thing this place has going for it, so I take advantage of the liberal gun laws.

  • Hyperion||

    Do you live there? Sorry, I maybe missed that fact...

  • db||

    Also, WTF are doing at a pepper festival and not shooting a good wholesome USPSA match?

  • Palin's Buttplug||

    Just watched Matt Welch on Real Time.

    He did a great service to libertarianism, in my opinion.

  • Hyperion||

    You don't even know what a libertarian is, as evidenced by the fact that you think you are one.

  • Palin's Buttplug||

    I scored 94% on the LP Purity Test.

    But I don't expect a libertarian to be elected to Congress in my lifetime though.

  • Bo Cara Esq.||

    There is a very close to being one in the US Senate right now. Do not let the perfect be the enemy of the good.

  • Hyperion||

    There are already 3 libertarians in congress now, moron.

    The only thing you score 94% on is the stupid test.

  • Bo Cara Esq.||

    To be fair Hyperion, there are no officially (LP) congresspersons.

  • Hyperion||

    There are 3 libertarians in congress, that are officially GOP.

    You know what I am talking about.

  • BakedPenguin||

    There are 3 libertarians in congress, that are officially GOP.

    This. Bob Barr ran as an L candidate - consider that on the tree of woe. I agree with Paul, Amash and Massie about 90-95% of the time, and I have no doubt that's a much higher percentage than I'd agree with Barr had he somehow won.

  • Tulpa (LAOL-VA)||

    Tell that to Mike Riggs.

    Rand Paul is not a libertarian

  • SIV||

    Riggs is a dope-addled moron.

  • Francisco d Anconia||

    l or L...what's teh diff?

  • Hyperion||

    l or L...what's teh diff?

    Me now and me 7 years ago...

    How to create the big L, our government has it down!

  • Archduke von Pantsfan||

    It was time to buckle down. After a heart-to-heart with a personal finance advisor, O’Connor decided to shave $1,000 off his family’s monthly budget in just 10 weeks — lowering one of his 10 largest household expenses by $100 each week. It was no easy task, let alone for a single-income family trying to scrape by in Detroit of all places. Against all odds, they succeeded.
  • Archduke von Pantsfan||

    STOP TALKING TO TROLLS

  • Archduke von Pantsfan||

  • General Butt Naked||

    *thankful it's not Bryan Adams*

  • Archduke von Pantsfan||

  • Francisco d Anconia||

    That actually wasn't bad. Better than Rush, anyway.

  • Hyperion||

    Better than Rush? WTF?

  • Francisco d Anconia||

    I keed. I keed.

    Everyone knows Rush was the ONLY good thing to come from the north.

  • Heroic Mulatto||

    Canadian Rock Song of the Night all Eternity

    You don't need to make anymore music.

  • Archduke von Pantsfan||

    that led me back to Echo Beach so it's ok

  • ||

  • Archduke von Pantsfan||

  • Hyperion||

    I refuse to click that link. WTF are you trying to do to us, Jesse? Why do you hate us?

  • ||

    Were you a better human being you'd wonder what kind of trauma led me to be familiar with Canadian boy bands.

    We had a cable package that included Much Music. *sobs gently into arm* It's good to finally talk about it.

  • Archduke von Pantsfan||

    Was that during the Rick the Temp and Stroumboulopoulos eras?

  • ||

    I really don't remember much besides this, and Pants Off, Dance Off.

  • Archduke von Pantsfan||

    are you too young for test pattern?

  • ||

    I was born in '83. I probably didn't have access to Much Music until the late '90s/early '00s.

  • Archduke von Pantsfan||

    yeah it was crap by then.
    first video I ever watched on MuchMusic

  • ||

    I've never actually seen that video. Definitely heard the song.

  • Death Rock and Skull||

    Let's see if "progressive" California can get it right this time.

    Lol dude.

  • ||

    There's a website of critters dressed as gentlemen!

    It's a pufferfish wearing a monocle!

  • General Butt Naked||

    I like the squirrel one.

  • Tulpa (LAOL-VA)||

    The politicians the progs elect are actually more likely to favor it than the politicians the cons elect.

  • Guy LaGuy||

    In 2011, there were 11,000 gun-related homicides in the country. It begs the question: is there no way to prevent Americans from killing one another with firearms?

    Obama says that 80 to 90 per cent of people agree with him, and yet he still cannot get legislation for stricter gun safety laws enacted. Perhaps, as economist and Nobel laureate Joseph Stiglitz has put it, vested interests have captured the legislative process, repeatedly frustrating the desires of ordinary Americans.
  • General Butt Naked||

    Question begging: not what the author thinks it is.

  • Guy LaGuy||

    The wrong usage is so common it's not an error anymore.
    Also, my hair is a bird

  • General Butt Naked||

    It may be common, but seeing that makes me question the intelligence of the author. Besides, what kind of dickhole uses something Obama claims as a premise? I'm thinking the author is a barely sentient talking point replicator, and it's probably for the best that he isn't armed.

  • Guy LaGuy||

    ad hominem. got anything else?

  • MJGreen||

    He does beg the question in the very next sentence, by simply assuming that Obama's claim is accurate.

  • JeremyR||

    Here's a crazy idea.

    If laws can stop things from happening, lets pass laws that make murdering someone a crime.

    Then we'd have no more murder, right?

  • The Immaculate Trouser||

    is there no way to prevent Americans from killing one another with firearms?

    Yes -- that way usually involves a good guy (or gal) with another gun.

  • ||

    Yeah, and there were another 5,200 homicides that didn't involve guns. But I guess those people don't matter?

    Also, 11,000 out of 330Million is 0.000033333333333. That's not even a percent. You're more likely to get killed by a fucking bus than a gun.

  • Tulpa (LAOL-VA)||

    Obama says that 80 to 90 per cent of people agree with him, and yet he still cannot get legislation for stricter gun safety laws enacted.

    Those numbers are for background checks, which are a tiny subset of BO's proposed gun legislation (and certainly have little to do with gun safety).

    If you want to see a case of vested interests capturing the political process in defiance of the will of the majority, look at Obamacare.

  • Fluffy||

    http://online.wsj.com/article/.....48428.html

    FHA is insolvent.

    Nice of the Obama administration to dump that info on a Friday - not even in a press release, but in a letter to Congress...in the middle of the shutdown drama.

    Nice recovery you got there, Barry.

  • TondoJondo||

    Dude seems to know what time it is. Wow.

    www.Got-Privacy.com

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