New York's New Gun Controls Make the PATRIOT Act Look Like a Model of Legislative Deliberation

Last night, by a vote of 43 to 18, the New York State Senate, which is run by a coalition of Republicans and breakaway Democrats, approved the new gun restrictions demanded last week by Gov. Andrew Cuomo, including a seven-round limit on magazines (down from 10) and a broader, California-style ban on "assault weapons." Today the New York State Assembly, controlled by Democrats, followed suit by a vote of 104 to 43, allowing Cuomo to sign the legislation less than a week after he asked for it in his State of the State address last Wednesday—especially impressive given that yesterday was the first full day of the new legislative session. "The guns package was negotiated privately by the governor and legislative leaders over the last several weeks," The New York Times reports, "but was only completed late Monday," so "rank-and-file Senators had only a few minutes to read the legislation before voting on it."

By comparison, the panicky passage of the PATRIOT Act was a model of legislative deliberation. While six weeks passed between 9/11 and George W. Bush's signing of the PATRIOT Act, only four passed between the Sandy Hook massacre and Andrew Cuomo's signing of New York's new gun controls. And unlike the New York legislature, Congress was actually in session during that period. 

Such "unusual haste" (as the Times describes it) deviates from the normal rule, laid out in Article II, Section 14 of the New York Constitution, that at least three days must elapse between the introduction of a bill and a vote on it. The constitition allows an exception when the governor publicly explains "the facts which in his or her opinion necessitate an immediate vote." Here is Cuomo's explanation:

Some weapons are so dangerous, and some ammunition devices so lethal, that New York State must act without delay to prohibit their continued sale and possession in the state in order to protect its children, first responders and citizens as soon as possible. This bill, if enacted, would do so by immediately banning the ownership, purchase and sale of assault weapons and large capacity ammunition feeding devices, and eliminate them from commerce in New York State.

In other words, there was no time to consider whether magazines holding more than seven rounds or guns with certain arbitarily selected cosmetic features pose an intolerable threat to public safety, because these items pose an intolerable threat to public safety. Also, it's for the children!

Mind you, the law does not actually ban possession of the newly redefined "assault weapons," which current owners may keep if they register them. Likewise, despite Cuomo's complaints about "large-capacity ammunition feeding devices" that were grandfathered under the old law, the new law allows possession of magazines holding eight, nine, or 10 rounds by people who currently own them. With millions of those in circulation, it may be years before the new limit has an impact on the magazines available to mass murderers and other criminals, assuming it ever does. Still, why add a day or two to the time it will take to reach that goal? Who could possibly favor such an unconscionable delay, when the lives of our children are endangered by every second that passes without a new gun law? Only someone who is old-fashioned enough to believe that legislators should read a bill, and maybe even consider its merits, before approving it.

As one indication of how well understood this legislation is, a report on it in today's national edition of The New York Times claims "the expanded assault weapons ban would bar semiautomatic weapons that have a single additional feature to increase their deadliness." Here is the list of additional features for rifles (updated to reflect the final text): 1) a folding or telescoping stock, 2) a pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action of the weapon, 3) a thumbhole stock, 4) a second handgrip or a protruding grip that can be held by the non-trigger hand, 5) a bayonet mount, 6) a flash suppressor, muzzle break, muzzle compensator, or threaded barrel designed to accommodate a flash suppressor, muzzle break, or muzzle compensator, or 7) a grenade launcher. Exactly how, you may wonder, does a flash suppressor, a folding stock, or a bayonet mount make a rifle more deadly in the hands of a mass murderer? Perhaps implicitly acknowledging this misconception, which is crucial to the appeal of "assault weapon" bans, someone at the Times removed that claim from the online version of the story (although there is no correction note at the bottom). Yet every legislator who voted for this law mistakenly believes (or at least pretends to believe) what the Times mistakenly reported: that there is something uniquely dangerous about these firearms.

In addition to the bans on "assault weapons" and "large-capacity" magazines, there are other provisions that might have merited some additional thought. According to the Times, for example, the bill authorizes (and maybe requires) psychiatrists, psychologists, and social workers to strip patients/clients of their Second Amendment rights:

The most significant new element would require mental health professionals to report to local mental health officials when they believe that patients are likely to harm themselves or others. Law enforcement officials would then be authorized to confiscate any firearm owned by a dangerous patient; therapists would not be punished for a failure to report such patients if they acted "in good faith."

The new threshold for taking away someone's guns is evidently lower than the threshold for committing him to a mental hospital (which would bar him from owning guns under federal law). In the name of protecting the public from unstable people with guns, the legislature has enacted a provision that seems likely to discourage gun owners from seeking mental health services. Can it really be that the say-so of a single mental health professional is all it takes? Is there any judicial review or appeals process after the fact? I don't know, because I have not read the bill. Then again, neither have most of the legislators who voted for it.

Update: In case you are a New York legislator and wonder what the hell you just voted for, here is the text of the bill.

Update II: I have corrected the list of suspect rifle features, which are somewhat different from California's, to reflect the final version of the bill. The exception to reporting a recipient of mental health services deemed dangerous to himself or others applies only when doing so would endanger potential victims.

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  • ||

    This is the future of lawmaking in this country; get used to it. Take advantage of something tragic/big, push through a garbled mess of shit with a whole bunch of special interests' pet issues in it, and then sit back and watch as there are even more insanely retarded laws to ensnare the proles with while the politicians are immune.

  • rts||

    What do you mean, "future"? Seems to be de rigueur for quite some time now.

  • Rich||

    Well said, both of you. 8-(

    This "rank-and-file Senators had only a few minutes to read the legislation before voting on it" bullshit is BULLSHIT. In particular, "nay" should be one's automatic vote in such a situation -- but, there I go again.

  • ||

    yea, i was going to say the same thing. kneejerk legislation has a long history, probably about as long as legislation does

  • Tulpa (LAOL-PA)||

    Remember the Maine! And the Lusitania!

    And the Chicago gang wars, and the black men seducing white women with marihuana, and the Red Scare (though the latter was probably a good thing as it got Taft-Hartley pushed thru).

  • Heroic Mulatto||

    You forgot the Alamo and 9/11.

    You suck at America.

  • ||

    yea, it's like all these "pundits" who decry the "new" incivility in politics when one can go back to the days of the revolution and find some great incendiary, insulting, frankly crazy wild-ass examples of negative campaigning and political character assassination.

    iirc, reason did a pretty good article on this a ways back. might have been volokh.com. not sure

  • General Butt Naked||

    Hey, if we had the civility of the 18th century Piers Morgan would've been killed in a duel years ago.

  • Zombie Jimbo||

    Drawn and quartered wit the flayed carcass spread with salt before being thrown to the dogs.

    Because even the dogs think he's tasteless and bitter.

  • Tulpa (LAOL-PA)||

    Did you see the article Morgan wrote in the Daily Mail about "seriously considering" self-deportation? Where he went on about how Americans don't like him because he's British, and we've never forgiven them for the War of 1812.

  • The Immaculate Trouser||

    Well, if he insists...

  • GILMORE||

    we've never forgiven them for the War of 1812.

    i think polls show 99% of americans dont know there *was* a War of 1812

    the English, by contrast, see it as having "showed America a lesson" (in what? bad strategy?) ... despite the fact that all agree that neither US nor Brits really 'won' anything (perhaps right to Free Trade? the brits decided Canada was boring? we decided we needed a proper Navy?)

    no, really, citing the war of 1812 as a "lingering bitter wound" is laughable in like 4 dimensions

  • Tulpa (LAOL-PA)||

    It did teach America a lesson, that the militias were no match for a professional military.

    Canadians sure as hell remember the War of 1812, which I find funny. It was their moment of glory.

  • C. Anacreon||

    If it wasn't for the War of 1812, we wouldn't have "The Star-Spangled Banner" or the song "The Battle of New Orleans."

  • Sernylan||

    "If it wasn't for the War of 1812, we wouldn't have "The Star-Spangled Banner"

    The irony of the "The Star-Spangled Banner" being the reworded drinking song "To Anacreon in Heaven" was not lost on me when I read your post, Mr. Anacreon...well played,...well played.

  • Calidissident||

    Yeah, I've always found it funny in online discussions when Canadians talk shit about the War of 1812, as if they were anything other than a mere colony of the most powerful empire in the world. It would be like an American talking shit about the French and Indian Wars, which I would find ridiculous

  • Xenocles||

    What do they have to talk shit about? My history books call that one a win for the US.

    It turns out there's more to fighting a war than taking cities. Sun Tzu said that millennia ago.

  • GILMORE||

    Xenocles| 1.15.13 @ 8:02PM |#

    ...My history books call that one a win for the US.

    Which is why you need to watch,

    The War of 1812: The Movie

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w2AfQ5pa59A

  • Xenocles||

    I give it a solid B+. But seriously, a war where we get what we want and they burn the White House? How is that not more popular here?

  • Tulpa (LAOL-PA)||

    We wanted Canada and a guarantee that our sailors would not be impressed. We didn't get either.

  • Xenocles||

    Impressment stopped nonetheless, and our navy kicked their ass.

  • SIV||

    We pushed back the Britishers Native-American allies and annexed there land fair and square to boot.

  • SIV||

    "their"
    Christ I have to stop typing phonetically.

  • GILMORE||

    Tulpa (LAOL-PA)| 1.15.13 @ 8:45PM |#

    We wanted Canada and a guarantee that our sailors would not be impressed. We didn't get either.

    i think its more fair to say we wanted the brits out of our hair in NA writ large, and made a fair stab at it, but ended up both kind of fighting a phyrric (?) battle where no one gained any particular strategic advantage, and the result was humiliation on both sides - hence, why it has been largely ignored by the general populace through history

    navy guys still like it because the initial ship to ship fights we came out on top, which shocked and upset the brits, but who in the end served us out rather hard in the fight with the USS Chesapeake, who felt they'd call it even and split

    the whole thing was a silly mess, and should have been a foreign policy lesson, but now lives on in drinking songs and flag waving, which isnt exactly the ideal take-away from 'another stupid useless conflict'

  • Paul.||

    i think its more fair to say we wanted the brits out of our hair in NA writ large, and made a fair stab at it, but ended up both kind of fighting a phyrric (?) battle where no one gained any particular strategic advantage, and the result was humiliation on both sides - hence, why it has been largely ignored by the general populace through history

    Wait, FUCK! Are we talking about the War of 1812, or the War on Terror? Or the War on Drugs? Or wait, the War on Poverty... damnit!

  • Tulpa (LAOL-PA)||

    New England was also considering secession during the war due to the interruption of trade with the UK.

  • Xenocles||

    That's impossible, only racist southerners would ever consider secession. /moron

    My college grounds were littered with monuments commemorating successful single-ship actions during the War of 1812. Propaganda abounds.

  • AlmightyJB||

    Sold!

  • Tulpa (LAOL-PA)||

    Your history books are Yankee propaganda. The only thing the US gained in the peace treaty was fishing rights off Newfoundland, which we basically already had de facto. The Brits were nice to us because they didn't have to worry about Napoleon/impressment anymore and they needed the grain and cotton trade to resume.

    The US invaded Canada and sacked Toronto, then proceeded to get beaten back into WNY, lose Fort Erie along with a big chunk of New York State, and had our capital burned to the ground.

  • Xenocles||

    See above.

  • Heroic Mulatto||

    Technically, it wasn't the U.S. at war. The New England states wisely refused to commit regiments of their state militia or provide financial support to the war effort.

    Unfortunately, this was a direct cause in the founding of the Second Bank of the U.S. in 1817.

  • Paul.||

    then proceeded to get beaten back into WNY, lose Fort Erie along with a big chunk of New York State, and had our capital burned to the ground.

    How was this a loss for the U.S.?

  • juris imprudent||

    Which is funny too because it was Canuck militia that won the battles against Yankee aggression.

  • General Butt Naked||

    Isn't he wanted for questioning in the tabloid phone hacking scandal, back in the UK?

  • Hopfiend||

    I don't like him because he's an insufferable turd, with limited ability to interview and no debate skills. But...whatever helps him sleep at night.

  • Archduke Pantsfan||

    We sacked Detroit but didn't want to keep it.
    QED

  • LTC(ret) John||

    No chance you would change your minds now?

  • entropy||

    That was the most hilarious thing ever.

    John Adams is a hideous hermaphroditic character, with neither the force and firmness of a man, nor the gentleness and sensibility of a woman.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y_zTN4BXvYI

  • The Immaculate Trouser||

    Beat me to it.

  • Sevo||

    "The most significant new element would require mental health professionals to report to local mental health officials when they believe that patients are likely to harm themselves or others"

    Oh, boy! The attorney retirement act!

  • ||

    passing the legislation kneejerk style is stupid, but there IS a major hole in reporting of mental health issues in most states, and NY is apparently no different. we get a fair # of reports from MHP's when they believe shit is imminent (they call 911) but there is no DATABASE to track same, and thus it doesn't get considered when CCW's etc. are considered unless the person SELF reports.

    there is a great system for felonies, etc. those are available via NICS when a firearms dealer does a background check, but there is very little database reporting when it comes to ... even involuntary commitments. somebody could get invol'd 3 times in one week and there will be no record of it reported to firearms dealer when they go apply for a firearms permit

    definitely, a hole. and many states are in a similar situation. loughner had nothing but whispers of 'crazy' and couldn't have been stopped, but there have been others who simply don't get reported.

  • C. Anacreon||

    In California, merely being on an involuntary psych hold (5150) does not disqualify you from gun ownership. But if you go past the 3 days of the 5150 and are kept involuntary on a subsequent 14 day hold (5250), you get an automatically-arranged hearing with a hearing officer/judge, usually 2-4 days after the 14-day hold starts. If you as a patient lose the 5250 hearing, then a judge has determined there is probable cause for your mental illness to require treatment with or without your consent during that hold -- it is the first time you have access to legal representation and a legal arbiter during your stay.

    Only after one has had these safeguards and probable cause has been established are patients reported to the state, and then they cannot own a firearm for five years afterwards. They can, of course, appeal this decision.

    I think this is a much more reasonable approach to denial of rights, taking it out of the hands of therapists and psychiatrists, leaving it with the legal system where it belongs.

    I am very concerned over what this will mean for voluntary, non-coercive mental health treatment. People will likely be afraid to seek help because they will now be reported to authorities, breaking confidentiality, even if they have no interest in gun ownership.

  • ||

    that sounds like a reasonable (tm) system. it certainly is much more comprehensive than WA state's.

    good info.

  • Paul.||

    it certainly is much more comprehensive than WA state's.

    mmm, not really.

  • Sevo||

    "loughner had nothing but whispers of 'crazy' and couldn't have been stopped, but there have been others who simply don't get reported."

    And how many false-positives are people going to pay for to get one true-positive?

  • ||

    much like ANYTHING, there are always going to be tradeoffs. that's better than having essentially no reporting whatsoever, which is the case in many states.

    along with comprehensive reporting should of course come the ability to CHALLENGE a ruling, just like with mandatory felony reporting comes an ability to at least apply (in my state) for a restoration of rights. heck, dealt with a guy the other day who was taunting his neighbor by coming out on to his porch and holding his ar-15 at port-arms while staring in his direction

    no crime, just being a jerk.

    he was a felon, but he had his rights restored so he was free to be an assclown and taunt his neighbor. neighbor wasn't even anti-gun, just didn't appreciate the guy standing there holding his AR and staring at him

  • Sevo||

    Dunphy (the real one)| 1.15.13 @ 6:15PM |#
    ..."that's better than having essentially no reporting whatsoever, which is the case in many states."...

    Got evidence? Cost/benefit? Who ends up with 'he's crazy' hung around their neck for the rest of their lives?
    How many true-positives will now not go anywhere close to a 'MHP'?
    Sorry, entirely too glib.

  • General Butt Naked||

    Who ends up with 'he's crazy' hung around their neck for the rest of their lives?

    Exactly. I can't in good conscious advocate taking away someone's constitutional rights for life with no due process.

  • Hopfiend||

    Doesn't effect him so it is not a problem. And it has the added benefit of giving him a strong sense of moral superiority.

  • Hopfiend||

    Sure, the Salem "witches" would probably agree with you. Always better to tar good people. Oops, we got that one wrong. Reminds me of the scene in Paris from Team America. They got the terrorist, got one of their own guys killed and blew up the friggin Eiffel Tower.

    We should feel good about that.

    What about the chilling effect of people seeking mental health services?

  • General Butt Naked||

    What about the chilling effect of people seeking mental health services?

    Exactly. Do they really think people are going to seek out help when they know they'll have the scarlet C on their records...for life?

  • Hopfiend||

    My spouse doesn't believe that will have an impact. I didn't want to argue as I was getting up to PT next am and was tired. We disagree on this issue. I rant (she remains quiet) she rants (I read a book). She is in the "do something" camp. I say, we've tried this one already...no result or bad result. Can we please stop pretending there are no gun control laws on the books already?

  • Agammamon||

    Which is still pretty irrelevant - a vanishingly small number of gun crimes (especially of the sort the bill was passed to prevent) are committed by these people.

    What it will do is make it effectively illegal for an adult to get a firearm if you received treatment for attempted suicide as a teen (as just one example).

  • Sevo||

    Cuomo:
    ..."to protect its children,"...
    Yep, he really said it, fooking sleazebag.

  • Hopfiend||

    Using dead kids as human shields. What a friggin sleez

  • Brutus||

    Looks like Andy has some Palestinian in him, hiding behind kids.

  • juris imprudent||

    Protecting children? And Cuomo hasn't gone after his own Church?

  • Restoras||

    I hope this guy ends up with six feet of New York soil as his reward, or perhaps just a touch less since he is such a small and cowardly man.

  • sarcasmic||

    Religion was invented to give serfs hope that the political class and their minions will see justice in the afterlife, since they sure won't see any in this one.

  • Loki||

    A shallow grave at the bottom of a landfill would be quite fitting for him and all the assclowns who voted for this shit.

    Thanks God I don't live in NY. Which reminds me, I should jump on google to find out what CO is doing about gun laws. We've gone full retard of late, so I'm surprised that there hasn't been similar stupidity here. Could be that Gov. Hickenlooper is smart enough to realize that outside of the People's Republic of Boulder no one else here is really itching for MOAR GUN LAWS. At least I hope so.

  • wheelock||

    I really really hope you are right. I love this place and would be very pissed if I was forced to move to Montana... And yes, Hickenlooper is going to push for a ban on private sales, last I heard.

  • ||

    WE. ARE. FUCKED.

    I know that gets said a lot but figured I would take my turn.

  • sarcasmic||

    Considering that I've never met a "mental health professional" who wasn't a progressive liberal statist slaver douchebag, I imagine they're chomping at the bit at the chance to disarm all their clients who don't share their political views.

  • ||

    it's nice to see your bigotry isn't limited to LEO's

    apparently, MHP's also have mass suckitude in your world.

    you must be a sad, bitter little man with all that hate and superiority you have over others.

    many MHP's devote their lives to working with mentally ill and trying to help them make their lives better, deal with tragedy, etc. they are great people in a difficult job.

    i've dealt with some great, compassionate insightful MHP's (we deal with them frequently. MHP's and social workers). good people, on the whole, like those in most professions

  • StackOfCoins||

    Anyone with arbitrary authority over another person's life should be viewed with extreme skepticism.

  • C. Anacreon||

    Most mental health professionals didn't have any arbitrary authority over anyone's life until this new law in New York.

  • ||

    i've seen guys get invol'd but not get a hearing after doing some literally CRAZY ass-shit. one guy nearly sawed off his hand and for some reason didn't even get a 72 hr hold. as soon as we introduce the word "arbitrary" it's of course WRONG , but the issue to me is that shit doesn't even get REPORTED so that NON-arbitrary due process can commence. the "powers that be" never get notified of X, so they can't consider X, even in the most non-arbitrary due process manner.

    if anybody is a fan of due process, it's me. we are not talking about revoking somedoy's rights because they had a bad night and got invol'd for some minor suicidal ideations. however, the fact that in WA somebody can get invol'd and even get a hearing and there is usually no NOTIFICATION.

    that's a problem.

  • ||

    typo. for some reason "didn't even get a hearing after a 72 hr hold, but was released"

  • Tulpa (LAOL-PA)||

    Homocides committed by known mentally ill people with guns kill fewer people than bathtub and shower accidents, dunphy. I don't see how there's a problem here that requires encroaching on liberty.

  • sarcasmic||

    Homocides committed by known mentally ill people with guns kill fewer people than bathtub and shower accidents, cops in average big city dunphy.

    ftfy

  • Michael||

    Homocides Homicides

    FIFBOY (fixed it for both of you)

  • juris imprudent||

    You don't know that you fixed it - perhaps he really meant the murder of gays.

  • Paul.||

    Most mental health professionals didn't have any arbitrary authority over anyone's life until this new law in New York.

    This with brass knobs on.

  • ||

    that's a far cry from what sarcasmic said e.g.a" progressive liberal statist slaver douchebag, I imagine they're chomping at the bit at the chance to disarm all their clients who don't share their political views."

    he has such great insights into people's character and it's nice to have somebody here who is so obviously superior to those teeming hordes of MHP's, LEO's etc. who are slaver douchebag or violent thugs invariably!

  • Chris Mallory||

    The mere fact that you are paid with tax money makes you (and all other government employees) statist douchebags.

  • sarcasmic||

    I know that people do not seek power unless they seek to use it, and I've never met a power seeker who could be trusted.

  • Virginian||

    I can. I'll sign executive orders nullifying all bureaucracy, and by the time the challenges wind through the court system, we will have warp capable starships. Checkmate.

  • ||

    So because I want to work in law enforcement, I'm automatically untrustworthy and power hungry? Glad to know what you think of me.

  • ||

    It's a pretty low calling.

    But hey, at least you don't aspire to be a bureaucrat.

  • ||

    Do you enforce laws you know or feel are immoral? If so then you ARE a slaver douchebag and a thug. I won't make judgement on the violent part.

  • Tulpa (LAOL-PA)||

    Drug laws may be stupid but they're not immoral. No one has to use drugs.

  • Sernylan||

    "Drug laws may be stupid but they're not immoral."

    C'mon man, really?

    "No one has to use drugs."

    Stop...just, stop it.

  • Virginian||

    No one has to produce pornography. No one has to worship. No one has to drink beer. No one has to go skateboarding. No one has to own a car. No one has to wear blue jeans. No one has to own a two story house. No one has to play baseball. No one has to own property. No one has to go swimming.

    Wow, actually all I need is three bowls of gruel a day and some canvas coveralls, maybe a communal bunkhouse to sleep in and a prison style shower. Ah yes the simple life.

  • RyanXXX||

    huh? What does this even mean?

  • RyanXXX||

    ^to Tulpa

  • Guy Laguy||

    Tulpa hates all the things.

  • Tulpa (LAOL-PA)||

    If you don't immediately know what it means, maybe you're not ready for it.

  • Coeus||

    If you don't immediately know what it means, maybe you're not ready for it.

    "So you're telling me that I can understand Tulpa?"

    "No, I'm telling you that when you're ready, you won't have to".

  • ||

    Now I know you've gone retarded.

    No one HAS to eat broccoli either. It would be immoral for the government to make it illegal to do so.

    Jesus Tapdancing Christ Tulpa.

  • Hyperion||

    Uh oh, Tulpa has went all retard on us again, and he wonders why we give him shit, and thinks we are all against him. Just when he seems reasonable, he does it again, sigh.

  • Hopfiend||

    I have respect for the job officers are charged with. You want more respect? Stop shielding the dirtbags in your midst. You have the greatest interest in weeding them out. But the blue wall thingy is killing all of you.

  • sarcasmic||

    Anyone with arbitrary authority over another person's life should be viewed with extreme skepticism.

    But, but, but according to dunphy only people with pure and good intentions would ever seek the power to hurt people without consequence!

    And the good cops will always turn in the bad ones!

    Happens all the time! Dunphy said so so it must be true! After all, he makes his living off force and fraud, why would he lie?

  • Hopfiend||

    Ding, ding, ding. We have a winner.

    Were that the slobbering prostrate media cheerleaders would again turn away from their journalistic malpractice and hold them accountable.

  • sarcasmic||

    What part of "I've never met" did you fail to understand.

    Just going by personal experience.

    *cue the accusations that I hate all cops based upon one incident, as if that was my only interaction with the police in my entire life*

  • juris imprudent||

    I've had by far more positive interactions with LEOs than bad ones. That doesn't mean I'm not going to slam the ass-clowns that deserve it. Dunphy seems to have trouble understanding that.

  • ||

    Do you even know what the meaning of bigot is?

  • C. Anacreon||

    Actually, I know a lot of psychiatrists, are most are right of center -- and I have been gradually convincing them (and even my liberal, Berkeley colleagues) the merits of libertarian views. And this is in the San Francisco Bay Area!

    Most physicians (75%) are to the right of center nationwide, and that figure of course includes psychiatrists.

    Now, you may have a point with the non-physician "mental health professionals." Psychologists, social workers and therapists tend to be very liberal, especially here in the Bay Area.

  • sarcasmic||

    Psychologists, social workers and therapists tend to be very liberal

    That is what comes to mind when someone says "mental health professional."

  • ||

    there has been some controversy over some MHP educational programs since they require students to "sign on" to the whole "social justice" agenda. iow, they are overtly ideological and political and not merely educational.

  • sarcasmic||

    iow, they are overtly ideological and political and not merely educational.

    As in "progressive liberal statist slaver douchebag" ideological?

    Nah. Then you'd have to recant that personal attack. That will never happen.

  • Hopfiend||

    Like a friggin religion with these tools, with no hope of an afterlife just undeserved moral superiority in this one. They are the pharisees.

  • ||

    Saying they're "ideological" doesn't necessarily imply the absolute of "progressive liberal statist slaver douchebag". You're just reading into statements what you expect to see.

  • Virginian||

    Dude, I was scanning a social work textbook (I work at a college library) into the database, kind of glancing at it as I did so. The case study in the chapter had a bunch of social workers watching the Obama Inauguration celebration in Hyde Park, Chicago while planning how to save the poor benighted brown people from themselves via the power of community organizing.

    It was literally the most nauseatingly patronizing shit I've ever read in my life.

    Except a few pages later, they were having a meeting with "the People" (ACTUAL FUCKING SPELLING) and the following exchange happens

    Resident (read: Native)"And uh...we're worried about the sewers and storm drains."

    Social Worker (read: Hero) "OK, we can call those sanitation issues"

    Then the text goes on to say that the Social Worker shouldn't have used the word sanitation, because it shows his privilege and bias as a member of the educated class.

    Yeah, that's right. Spics and niggers Disenfranchised minorities are too stupid salt of the earth to use big words like sanitation. I guess the social workers are supposed to pantomime, or perhaps develop a crude pidgin.

  • ||

    I'd say, like many things, it depends. The book you're talking about (I'm not familiar with it) sounds pretty biased. I don't think, however, you can simply extrapolate from that that everyone in the field is a "progressive liberal statist slaver douchebag". More likely (MUCH more likely) to be left-leaning, yes, but if you expect be to believe every person that does is some sort of ultimate extreme, you're really reaching.

  • EDG reppin' LBC||

    Anecdotally, I can agree with Anacreon. My grandfather was a psychiatrist, and a conservative. My dad is an MD, his twin sister is a psychiatrist and conservative. His brother is an MD, converted to Evangelical Christianity (what, Jewish is no good?) is a confirmed neo-con. My mom is an MSW and a conservative. It happens. Unfortunately, none of them are libertarians. Except maybe my Uncle Art (also an MD), who is probably more of an anarchist.

  • Adam.||

    Assholes. If you haven't read it you vote NO.

  • StackOfCoins||

    This. The senators of New York must be a cowardly or incompetent sort.

  • JD the elder||

    The NY State government is completely worthless, and I suspect completely corrupt as well. Really, I cannot recall the last time the state government did a goddamn thing worth mentioning. Mostly we just hope that they play around with their appointments and slush funds up in Albany and leave everybody alone.

  • ||

    Suspect it's completely corrupt? It's absolutely completely corrupt. Most of what the state legislature does is play their little internal power games and however that falls out for their constituencies, so be it.

    New York State has so much government, so many layers of government, that it's amazing. There is so much room for corruption at every level.

  • Tulpa (LAOL-PA)||

    Ironically, some of those layers (townships, etc) were put in place as a check on the state government. Didn't exactly work out that way.

  • ||

    Nope. When you have a state government, a county government, a town government, and a village government, that's a lot of places for power-hungry jerkbags to install themselves.

    And let's not forget that there are police forces at every one of those levels as well.

  • sarcasmic||

    Not always. In my town the state troopers and sheriffs alternate doing speed traps. Actually, it's only the troopers who do the speed traps. Sheriffs seem to actually be peace officers around here, looking for people to help and stuff. Troopers are just looking for lawbreakers to fuck with.

  • Tulpa (LAOL-PA)||

    good cop, bad cop... literally.

  • GILMORE||

    Episiarch| 1.15.13 @ 6:31PM |#

    Suspect it's completely corrupt? It's absolutely completely corrupt.

    *ABSOLUTELY* completely corrupt??

    DEAR GOD man - the New York State Legislature is = "You've got to be totally fucking kidding me!!! i had no idea any institution could *normalize* this scale of nauseating ass-fuckery and amoral abuse of power and bleeding of the public..."-completely-corrupt

    No, really. They suck. Think, Chicago-level-suck... then realize that Chicago *learned it from NY*. Its a statewide point of pride that our legislators make even mafioso a little ashamed and disgusted. a la, "... now those guys are *immoral*!"

  • Rhywun||

    This. Times ten. I honestly don't know how anyone with a conscience can validate the whole circus by participating in it.

  • Ted S.||

    Only suspect? Not only is it corrupt, it's fucking dysfunctional as well.

    If you want a good laugh and to be horrified, read up on the 2009 State Senate leadership "crisis".

    It fucking enrages me that the press to a man used the word "coup" to describe the events.

  • JD the elder||

    I only suspect because I try not to pay too much attention to it. Paying too much attention to the state government is bad for my blood pressure.

  • StackOfCoins||

    ... at least three days must elapse between the introduction of a bill and a vote on it. The constitition allows an exception when the governor publicly explains "the facts which in his or her opinion necessitate an immediate vote."

    Why the fuck is this exception even there? I cannot think of anything so important (to New York legislature anyway) that the difference between success and failure is three days of deliberation. Unless of course that transparency in the only thing that's stopping the bill...

    Can't wait to see the backlash this generates.

  • Restoras||

    Backlash? HAHAHAHA!!! It's not like the rural counties/population of NY can secede from the dickheads in the southern part of the state, as much as they may want to.

    There will be NO repercussions.

  • Auric Demonocles||

    Particularly if the Governor can make it so vague as to why it needs to be done immediately.

  • Sevo||

    "Why the fuck is this exception even there?"

    Why do you hate the CHILDRUNZZZ?

  • Xenocles||

    It's there to completely neuter the requirement. The governor can just say "This law is necessary because my balls are huge" and that's an explanation.

  • Heroic Mulatto||

    The Senate session pretty much looked like this, with Cuomo in the middle.

  • ||

    Without clicking, is that a circle jerk with Cuomo holding the cracker in his mouth?

  • Generic Stranger||

    I didn't watch the video, but the term "bukkake" was in the title, so I assume that it is.

  • Heroic Mulatto||

    Great minds think alike.

  • EDG reppin' LBC||

    Needz moar horse!

  • XM||

    A NSFW would have been appropriate.

  • Rhywun||

    A NSFW would have been appropriate.

    You mean you don't assume it?

  • Ted S.||

    Bukkake is NSFW? ;-)

  • Archduke Pantsfan||

    depends on where you work I guess

  • The Late P Brooks||

    "rank-and-file Senators had only a few minutes to read the legislation before voting on it."

    All you really need is a catchy title which illustrates the good intentions of the people who voted for it.

  • Almanian.||

    Anything named after a dead child is good.

  • Rhywun||

    I just caught this:

    "Secure Ammunition and Firearms Enforcement Act"

    Apparently, all the dead children were one state over so they put their heads together and went for the acronym instead.

  • Heroic Mulatto||

    The SAFE Act?

    These fuckers are shameless.

  • ||

    "Aiding Safe Streets From Uber Criminal Felons."

    You like?

  • ||

    Whups...change "Felons" into "Kooks."

  • Almanian.||

    It takes a lot to make me glad to live in Michigan.

    Droughts elsewhere, NY and Cali politics suffice. Thank goodness for Governor One Tough Nerd...

    Sorry, New York. PWND.

  • The Late P Brooks||

    The constitition allows an exception when the governor publicly explains "the facts which in his or her opinion necessitate an immediate vote."

    Haven't you heard? That stuff is flying off the shelves! Taking time to debate this will provide thousands of blood-crazed babykillers an opportunity to arm themselves with the latest babykilling technology. Every second we delay puts more scary assaultgunz in out schools.

  • Tulpa (LAOL-PA)||

    Climate, landscape, topography, and culture-wise, upstate New York is my favorite part of the country. The only blemish is the lack of jobs, eternally depressed economy, and the fact it's ruled from NYC and Long Island.

  • Zeb||

    NYC, Long Island, New Jersey and SW Connecticut should be their own state. Then upstate NY might have a chance.

  • ||

    Trust me, SW Connecticut does not want that. At all. There's a reason so many rich people who work in NYC live in Greenwich/Cos Cob/etc. Because it's fucking in Connecticut and not New York. That's the point.

  • General Butt Naked||

    Because it's fucking in Connecticut and not New York. That's the point.

    No. The point is, they want to live in a state where they can buy high caliber, mega-capacity clip assault glocks to kill children with. New York is leading the way in sensible, common sense gun legislation that, not only is respectful of the outdated 2nd amendment, but will protect families and children from gun nutz like you.

    They should round up all the gun nutz and shoot them because there is too much violence!

  • C. Anacreon||

    Wow, speaking of Poe's law.....

  • Hyperion||

    /sarcasm

  • Drake||

    Don't throw Northwest NJ into that dump. We'll go with upstate NY, or PA minus Philly.

  • Ronulanus||

    "The most significant new element would require mental health professionals to report to local mental health officials when they believe that patients are likely to harm themselves or others. Law enforcement officials would then be authorized to confiscate any firearm owned by a dangerous patient..."

    This is probably the scariest part of this bullshit law. In simple terms for the average, low-information American citizen, so-called "mental health officials" in this shitty state of New York (where I reside) can now turn anyone over to the authorities whom they believe is "likely to harm themselves or others."

    In other words, some fucking crackpot psychiatrist gets to call the shots on someone's mental stability and whether or not they can have guns in their possession. The biggest fucking irony being that many psychiatrists need the most psychological help.

  • Tulpa (LAOL-PA)||

    Pretty sure that part would be overturned as a due process violation in view of Heller/McDonald. Problem is you need someone to get standing.

  • ||

    "You don't have standing, you're a mere taxpayer."

  • Tulpa (LAOL-PA)||

    Well, I'm sure Governor Brown is fuming. California cannot allow itself to fall behind in the race for Full Retard. CA will just have to ban magazines with more than 1 round. That'll show those New Yorkers who's avant garde.

  • juris imprudent||

    The new Dem-super-majority needs a little time to get their stride. Full fuckritude takes time.

  • UnionBuiltOhioRoads(LAOL)||

    Speaking of Nazis.....has anyone heard anything lately about Silent Hunter Online? Minimum System Requirements?

  • Hyperion||

    This is all a result of the freeshitters now being the voting bloc with the highest numbers. As soon as the tyrants, like Obama, Bloomturd, and this other NY fucktard realized that, they just threw off any pretense at whatever they were pretending to be and went into full on tyrant mode. This is just the beginning. The more they get away with, the worse will be the next thing they think of.

    There is only one way to stop this and we are screwed until we do it. The free shit has to be cut off. When that happens, the tyrants had better head for a remote island somewhere as quickly as possible, or else they will be trapped between the enraged freeper wolfpack who no longer are getting their free stuff fix, and the enraged rednecks from the surrounding fly over country who they have been fucking over with reckless abandon.

    Their time is coming, sad part being that they are going to get millions killed before it is their turn. This is the way it always happens with tyranny, and I just don't see this being any different, unless maybe the death count will be a lot higher since population densities in urban areas are so high.

  • Tulpa (LAOL-PA)||

    How do you plan to cut the free shit off?

    Can't do it electorally since they're the majority.

  • Hyperion||

    I didn't say how I plan to cut off the free shit. I just said it needs to be done.

    Agree, can't be done electorally.

  • Libertarius||

    Tyranny needs a printing press and a phony currency to pay for itself. The dollar is going to take leviathan down with it.

    Gold hoarders rejoice!

  • Hyperion||

    Gold won't be worth much then the grocery shelves are empty.

    Food and bullets will be what is really valuable.

  • Heroic Mulatto||

    Well, it's short-term and long-term.

    In the early stages after the SHTF, the 3 Bs "Beans/Bullets/Band-Aids" will be king; however, baring total collapse into Mad Maxville, gold and other precious metals will return to being a store of value as a post-SHTF economy develops.

  • Hyperion||

    Unless the federal gubmint or the resistance would stand down quickly, I think things would be fucked up for a very, very long time.

    In the best case scenario where the feds stand down and the country splits into various factions of states or territories, then, yeah gold could be very valuable, if you had enough bullets during the first phase to hold onto it.

    In the worst case scenario, feds achieve quick victory, there would be no good reason to be alive in this country, unless you were one of the ruling class. I would say it would be 100x worse than living in North Korea. I would prefer to take my chances in Mad Maxville meets Fallout NV.

  • Heroic Mulatto||

    I think things would be fucked up for a very, very long time

    Define very, very long time? 10-30 years? Maybe. Longer than that, I can't see it.

  • Hyperion||

    As fucked up as it would be, 10 years would seem like an eternity to anyone surviving it. So when I say a long time, I mean more than a few years, a few meaning 3 or more.

  • Heroic Mulatto||

    Still a short enough time that having some gold on hand would be worth it provided you survived.

  • Tulpa (LAOL-PA)||

    And then Somalian libertarians will be told "maybe you should move to America!"

  • Hyperion||

    We welcome our Somalian brethren as long as they bring guns and booze and are willing to shoot liberals.

  • Tulpa (LAOL-PA)||

    Go long on toilet paper, antibiotics, bandanas, and duct tape.

  • Heroic Mulatto||

    Unfortunately, antibiotics don't last long. 2 years in the best conditions.

  • Libertarius||

    You don't get it: we're going back to the golden rule. Which means you'd better get gold while the gettin's good, which is as long as people are accepting fiat dollarz for it.

    If the paper price of gold goes lower, it is only incentive to buy more. Fiat currencies all over the world are destroying themselves in a race to the bottom, but they have to suppress the dollar price of gold to keep the ponzi going.

    Germany just announced last night that they are repatriating their gold from the NY Fed and the French central banks. The media? Crickets. This is where the rubber meets the road folks, better be stacking gold.

  • General Butt Naked||

    I've noticed that bullets always go up, as well. Any temporary price relief is a signal to buy more.

    See: .223/5.56 since december

  • Libertarius||

    Because you don't want to be stuck without a golden chair when the music is over for Bernanke's printing press

  • AlmightyJB||

    "they just threw off any pretense at whatever they were pretending to be and went into full on tyrant mode."

    They passed because they coupld pass it because they have power to do anything they want. It's pieces of shit like these for which the 2nd Amendment was written. Wake up New York'ers and grow a pair. kick these shitheads out.

  • Hyperion||

    Yep, they are very emboldened. They have super majorities, where everyone just goes along lockstep with whatever is thrown out, no matter how tyrannical. And they know that as long as they can pass out free stuff with other peoples money, it's never going to end.

    It is going to get much worse.

    A certain tree needs some water.

  • AlmightyJB||

    They keep this shit up, it's gonna happen.

  • Hyperion||

    As worthless as many Limeys are, Piers Morgan for example, some of their online opinion writers are better than most of ours.

    Rambo Hollande

  • AlmightyJB||

    Yeah, I actually used to spend more time at bbc news site than us news sites. Whils they are certainly to the left they seem to be less bias at least when it comes to reporting us news. Not as much skin in the game I suppose.

  • waaminn||

    lol, will those idiots ever realize that silly laws are for HONEST folk lol.

    www.make-anon.tk

  • Drake||

    My wife and I were debating between vacation this summer in the Adirondacks or the White Mountains of New Hampshire. Guess what Statist fuck-hole won't be getting any tax money from me.

    Live Free or Die.

  • Almanian.||

    Mrs. Almanian and I will be visiting Wyoming this fall, in addition to the ever-glorious Beaver Island, MIin the summer.

    We're thinking 40 acres in the middle of nowhere out west might be sufficiently remote for the government to leave us alone long enough to die in peace. We'll see.

  • General Butt Naked||

    We're thinking 40 acres in the middle of nowhere out west might be sufficiently remote for the government to leave us alone long enough to die in peace.

    I hear ya.

  • Hyperion||

    Wifey and I are going to Montana to visit my sister this summer. I am already seriously thinking of ways to get stuck there and never come back to Maryland. And I hate cold climates. But I hate progressive tyrants worse.

  • General Butt Naked||

    PA is closer and we've got some of the most liberal gun laws in the country.

  • Tulpa (LAOL-PA)||

    Except for the fact you have to tote around your state police purchase form for six months after buying a handgun.

    There's also a bill up for consideration in Harrisburg that would make it a felony to carry a gun in a park. Are you going to march on H-burg with PAFOA next Wed?

  • General Butt Naked||

    Are you going to march on H-burg with PAFOA next Wed?

    I thought it was on saturday. What the hell? Don't they know most gun people work and shit?

    I even read the protest thread on PAFOA, and kept this thing was happening on saturday.

    Man, we ain't Obama's Free Shit Army, where you can just bus us in, hand us a twenty spot and a bologna sandwich and protest away.

    I'll have to think about it, but I'll probably go. Fuck class.

    You goin'?

  • Tulpa (LAOL-PA)||

    Saturday is the national day of marching on capitals from NUTNFANCY, but next Wed is a specific PA day because CeaseFirePA is having a rally at the capitol to promote "sensible regulation" etc.

    I'm going if I can find a way to get there. I don't trust my car to make that journey, it's in pretty rough shape. Some people are looking at carpools. I might just take a Dingy Dog bus because it's under $40 round trip, while a car trip is going to be at least $75 when you take parking and gas and tolls into account.

    Of course, Dingy Dog doesn't let you bring a gun on board.

  • General Butt Naked||

    What the hell is a Dingy Dog bus, and does it return that day? Do you mean a greyhound?

    'Cause I really don't want to drive. My truck's a beast but it costs too much in gas (and it sometimes decides to turn the interior light on and drain the battery... always at the worst possible time).

  • Tulpa (LAOL-PA)||

    Yeah, that's Greyhound's nickname. Or am I the only one who uses that? I AM SO PROLIFIC!

  • Redmanfms||

    NUTNFANCY

    Ugh.

  • General Butt Naked||

    Yeah, something about that dude creeps me out.

  • Redmanfms||

    I dislike the fact that he is a fucking ignorant turd and his legion of "TNPers" are the dumbest most gun-ignorant dipshits infecting the internet. They are like "tactical" Juggaloes. As YouTube gun reviewers go, he is easily the worst. More than a few of his reviews he gives his views on the reliability of a firearm without ever having even shot it, much less put enough rounds through the weapon to offer anything in the way of statistical reliability results.

    And yeah, he's creepy.

  • General Butt Naked||

    I haven't watched many of his gun videos, but I did watch his camping/gear vids. The group camps are just weird.

    And he swings an ax like a retard.

  • AZ||

    His opinions seem entirely based on his kitchen scale.

  • Tulpa (LAOL-PA)||

    The main problem I have with him is that his philosophy/political videos are all 30-45 minutes long, and it's mostly just him standing in front of the camera blabbing around in circles. Plus the first 10 minutes of blabbing often have nothing to do with what the video is supposed to be about.

    And yeah, the worship of all things tactical is annoying. It is fun to see such attitudes taken down in the manner they deserve.

  • General Butt Naked||

    Iraqveteran is cool. I like his vids.

    Barry is the shit.

  • Tulpa (LAOL-PA)||

    Arthur Hipoint is my favorite star of the videos.

  • Xenocles||

    Washington state, man. Possibly the best all-around in the country these days between climate, culture, and politics (which are admittedly nauseating but the gun laws get an A in my book)

  • Hyperion||

    Washington state, man. Possibly the best all-around in the country these days between climate, culture, and politics (which are admittedly nauseating but the gun laws get an A in my book)

    Not that it will make any difference when the feds pass more shit, like they did with the Brady Act of 1993. They are just planning on taking away any more lenient state laws through new federal laws. How many states do not enforce the Brady Act? None, that's right. See where this is going?

  • Xenocles||

    We'll see. I have a hard time believing the House gets anything really offensive through on the gun control front.

  • Redmanfms||

    Washington state, man.

    No machine guns, SBRs, or SBSs.

    Also, rain.

    And hippies, smelly, smelly hippies.

    And volcanoes, explody, explody volcanoes.

  • AlmightyJB||

    It is pretty though.

  • General Butt Naked||

    Waiting period as well.

  • Xenocles||

    Waiting period is offensive, but it doesn't actually stop you from getting the gun in the end so I can live with it. Like I said, it's a balance. And if you hate hippies that much, just head east over the mountains.

  • Xenocles||

    Find me a machine gun that I can afford and a state prohibition will matter to me.

  • Tulpa (LAOL-PA)||

    10/22 with bump fire stock.

  • Xenocles||

    Bump firing is by definition not automatic, therefore not a machine gun.

  • General Butt Naked||

    We gotta keep the bump firing on the DL, or it will cause the next ban-boner.

    I am truly surprised that bump-fire stocks haven't been mentioned by the Brady Bunch.

  • Xenocles||

    Besides fun, though, why would you really want it? Seems like it would be even less accurate than normal auto.

  • General Butt Naked||

    Besides fun, though, why would you really want it? Seems like it would be even less accurate than normal auto.

    I'd only get one for fun. But, what it can be used for isn't important to the grabbers; just that it's scary. Hell, you could say the same thing about machine guns. Would full-auto really help you kill or rob any better? I'd say no.

  • Xenocles||

    Yeah, don't get me wrong I'm not looking to excuse a ban - just saying that the "right" ban on it could be one of those brier patch sort of maneuvers for us.

  • Tulpa (LAOL-PA)||

    I was under the impression that inaccuracy was a feature, not a bug when it comes to machine gun fire. Otherwise you just put dozens of bullets through the same hole.

  • Xenocles||

    Accuracy implies the bullets go specifically where you want them to.

  • Hyperion||

    Also, rain

    The western part looks like a highland desert to me.

  • Redmanfms||

    The western part looks like a highland desert to me.

    All the "culture" (and employment) is in the rainy, volcano-ey, hippie-ey part of the state.

    Besides, if you are moving to eastern Washington (the steppe-like area), you might as well just move to Idaho.

  • Xenocles||

    I like rain, but your mileage may vary.

  • Hyperion||

    I like rain, but your mileage may vary

    It's good, the kind where it rains, and then stops again and the sun comes out. The kind they have in Seattle where it drizzles and is overcast for 5 months without the sun ever coming out, not so great.

  • Xenocles||

    The summers are bone dry, at least where I lived in Kitsap County. I remember the winter being the rainy season, and while I missed snow it still suited me. But there's no accounting for taste.

    All I was getting at was that I generally love coastal blue states except for the politics, and I found Washington's remarkably tolerable - enough to recommend the state overall.

  • Redmanfms||

    I like rain, but your mileage may vary.

    Rain is all fine and dandy, but seeing sunlight more than once every 10 months has its strong points.

    Also, explody, explody volcanoes.

    And smelly, smelly hippies.

  • Hyperion||

    All the "culture" (and employment) is in the rainy, volcano-ey, hippie-ey part of the state.

    Yah, I know, my son lives in Seattle.

  • mr simple||

    Apparently no other Kentuckians on the board tonight. We have no permits, licensing or registration required; no assault weapons laws or prohibitions; no waiting period; shall issue CDWL (deadly weapons); no NFA weapons restrictions; and at least one sheriff who has refused to enforce any unconstitutional federal gun laws. That and gorgeous landscapes, more coastline than Florida, and the best college basketball program in the nation (I'm talking long term, not this year).

  • Hyperion||

    Apparently no other Kentuckians on the board tonight

    I'm a buckeye, but I have spent some of the best times in my life, growing up, in the mountains of eastern KY, at my grandfathers place. Me and some of my friends from Cincy and KY used to hike trails in the mountains and camp for weeks a time.

  • Hyperion||

    I have co-workers that drive down to Balmer to work from the York area. Seems the main reason they do it is for real estate prices and taxes. Makes sense.

    Montana is an entirely different thing altogether, especially that area around Bozeman where my sister lives. Talk about a wild and remote area.

  • Drake||

    PA sounds nice - except you are about to lose your reciprocity rights in other states thanks to your new Attorney General.
    http://www.pagunblog.com/2013/.....a-license/

  • Tulpa (LAOL-PA)||

    PA's reciprocity is shitty anyway, mostly due to the lack of a training requirement. Most Pennsylvanians who travel armed get a UT or FL nonresident permit.

  • AlmightyJB||

    My wife and I are headed to the hills of Tennessee in four or five years.

  • Hyperion||

    I love the area around Knoxville. My favorite part of the country, overall.

  • AlmightyJB||

    That's exactly where we're headed. Probably West Knoxville. I would prefer to be a little further south more in the Smokies but we'll probably both need to work closer to town.

  • Hyperion||

    Wife and I were down there for a week in December 2010. We were in Knoxville, wife wanted to do some shopping, and it was in the 60s and sunny, I was wearing just jeans and t-shirt. We decided to drive up into the park to the North Carolina state line, I think it's one of the highest points... so we get up there, not a long drive, and it was 20 degrees, we were freezing, lol. Beautiful though. We were staying in Pigeon Forge.

  • AlmightyJB||

    Yeah, been right there at that spot. We usually stay in Gatlinburg by the park entrance but there's an awesome restaurant in Pidgeon Forge we ate at. Love the mountains.

  • SIV||

    Get a place in Kingston on the fly ash spill. It is really pretty there around Watts Bar and the Clinch River and it looks clean now. Pretty easy commute to K-ville or Oak Ridge.

  • SIV||

    Harriman isn't too bad either.
    I've worked all around East TN over the past 20 years. Not my favorite place but very nice in certain places and times of the year.Good place if you like the outdoors and boating/fishing.

  • SIV||

    No, no, I forgot you guys are Yankees. Just stay home. You do things better there (I hear it a lot) You don't want to maroon yourself among us corn skweezin'-swillin',truck and muscle car drivin',chicken and dog-fightin',corn cob pipe-smokin', evolution- denyin', barefoot sister-fuckers. FERGIT HELL!

  • AlmightyJB||

    Thanks for the tips! I'll check those areas out. I'm just a country boy trapped in a city boys life so I'm all about getting out in the boonies with you hicks:) As long as there's a bar in the area I'm good:) Also, West Columbus where I live now is packed full of Appalachian transplants so coming to Tennessee is really just like coming home only with mountains. My kind of people. If you think of any other good areas for us to check out all advice is appreciated!

  • AlmightyJB||

    Checked Kingston and Harriman out on the map. Funny you mention those places because I just sent a link to to my wife the other day about the Catoosa Wildlife Management Area. Was checking out Farragut area but I have to get out of suburbia so I may well need to get further out there. Like I told my wife, I want a little land, some privacy, the ability to shoot out my kitchen window and while don't want to park our car in the front yard I want to be able to if I damn well feel like it. If I didn't have to work I'd be way in the sticks.

  • GILMORE||

    We're thinking 40 acres in the middle of nowhere...

    RACIST. WHERE'S YOUR MULE??

  • Heroic Mulatto||

    It's written as M.U.L.E., thank you very much.

  • Live Free or Diet||

    Live Free or Diet.

  • Archduke Pantsfan||

  • AlmightyJB||

  • Caleb Turberville||

    The "gun problem" isn't a race problem, but the drug war is a race problem.

  • Guy Laguy||

    I'm sorry for David Frum. But I'm glad he's in your country and not mine any longer.

  • Hyperion||

    Is this guy under Bloomturds desk right now, with his head bobbing up and down?

    That is some of the stupidest collectivist bullshit I have ever read.

  • Tulpa (LAOL-PA)||

    I like how he references Art Kellerman's utterly discredited research from the 1980s about a gun in the house being 43 times more likely to kill a family member than an attacker, as "important new research".

    Yet the urge to subdivide runs strong among Americans. Monday on Fox News, the popular conservative commentator Ann Coulter claimed that the murder rate among white Americans is as low as the murder rate in Belgium. "So perhaps it's not a gun problem," she concluded. "Perhaps it's a demographic problem."
    But countries cannot dismiss the sufferings of great blocks of their people by dismissing some "demographics" as unworthy of attention.

    So, Frum wants to disarm black people?

  • Brutus||

    I say Democrats need to return to their Taney/Conner/Wallace roots and do so, post haste.

  • General Butt Naked||

    Widespread gun ownership means not only more gun killings, but also more gun maimings and cripplings. The National Rifle Association's Wayne LaPierre hailed the ability of a "good guy" with a gun to stop a "bad guy" with a gun. Sixty seconds later, however, that bad guy may need a wheelchair for life. We can't dismiss these human costs as pertaining to only somebody else. They are all part of us.

    Yeah Dave, we should just let him kill us, then not imprison him so it'll be cheaper. Ohh, you mean he wouldn't shoot me if there were stricter gun laws? Of course, how stoopid of me: a murderer would definitely be afraid of tougher gun laws!

  • Tulpa (LAOL-PA)||

    Armed robbers are people too, GBN. And with Obamacare you and I are paying for their wheelchairs.

  • General Butt Naked||

    The perpetrator should thank his lucky stars that not only is he not dead, but that he is provided a warm bed and food by the taxpayers. Fuck him.

    As someone once said, "play stupid games, win stupid prizes."

  • Hyperion||

    Which is why when someone comes through your door in the middle of the night, uninvited and with bad intent, the number one rule is, they get dead, not just wounded. Got to do your part to curb the national debt.

  • juris imprudent||

    The occupational hazards of criminal work demand unionization and/or community organizing. And they should strike until they get a better benefits package too.

  • MJGreen||

    Would you be ready to tell Adam Lanza that he'll never walk again!??

  • Tulpa (LAOL-PA)||

    That fuckstick really should have been Time's Man of the Year with all the ridiculousness he's caused.

  • Hyperion||

    Yeah, only he didn't really cause it. What he did is horrible, but it's what the jackass opportunists are doing that is far worse by many magnitudes of degree.

  • AZ||

    Who the fuck is this "us"?
    I'm pretty sure the human costs can and should be limited to the asshole that was threatening my life or the life of someone I love, causing me to shoot in self-defense.

  • ||

    Sounds like he acreed to be counsel for Maj. Hasan.

  • Caleb Turberville||

    Sullum is the only person I know who is drawing the appropriate comparison to the PATRIOT Act. He really needs to get booked on MSNBC right now because all they are doing as far as letting "the other side" speak is reading off an easily caricatured quote from an NRA spokesperson lacking in the raw data and eloquence to speak truth to insanity.

  • Palin's Buttplug||

    I made the comparison just yesterday to Patriot Act/DHS/TSA as a much more grievous overreaction.

    Of course some of the "libertarians" here cried foul - "Not Fair to bring up Bush!"

  • Xenocles||

    Names, you mendacious turd. What libertarian here said that?

  • Hyperion||

    No one here said anything about it not being fair to bring up Bush.

    Buttheads main tactic for defending his master, Obumbler, is always to mention something about something that Bush did. Lame as hell.

  • Brutus||

    Shriek is like a dirty-minded person, who can steer any converations toward sex. His fixation is Booooosh!, however.

  • Palin's Buttplug||

  • Killazontherun||

    Most of us were able to wash the bad taint of Bush from our lives and memories with large quantities of grain alcohol. Why hasn't that worked for you?

  • Archduke Pantsfan||

    He's been using wood alcohol

  • General Butt Naked||

    He's found a way to cause people to talk to him.

    works for him every time...

  • Hyperion||

    Obama has done nothing to try to repeal or even let expire, the Patriot Act. Worse, he signed NDAA, which is far, far worse than the Patriot Act.

    No one is defending Bush in that thread. Rather, it is you who defends Obama for doing just as bad, or worse than what Bush has done.

    You like the taste of statist boot? Apparently you do, or you would not keep defending the slimy pig that now sits in the highest office in the land, vacated by previous slimy pig. When the boot falls on your neck, don't go crying to the rest of us to save you.

  • juris imprudent||

    Shreek only likes the taste of the left boot - the right boot offends his delicate sensibilities.

  • Xenocles||

    That's not a name, that's an entire thread. Link to the comment of the specific libertarian you're talking about.

  • Guy Laguy||

    NO

  • ||

    Fuck you demfag. We were crying foul to your complete lack of awareness that Obama and Bush are exactly the same on the shitty abuse of our rights.

  • AZ||

    And shouting "But BUUUUUUSSSSHHHHH!!!" would mean something if Obama had disbanded the TSA, repealed the PATRIOT act, refrained from drone murder campaigns, been quicker about ending the Iraq campaign, and not included TARP in the baseline for the federal budget.

    But he did not, so he owns the prior failures that he perpetuated as well as the new ones he heaps on us regularly.

  • Guy Laguy||

  • Brutus||

    Eh...B-

  • SIV||

    New York still allows hunters and sportswymyn to keep their guns with proper legal and regulatory compliance. Plus, they have legal gay marriage. It is a regular Cosmotopia!

  • Hyperion||

    It's a regular shithole is what it is. Ok to visit for a day, and then just get the fuck out.

    It cracks me up to see people paying 2k+ for apartments that are so small that you have to store your cookware in the fucking oven! And no place to park a car or any gas station to get gas for it. And the highest taxes in the universe, and they are thinking up more by the minute. Fuck.That.Shit.

  • Xenocles||

    Try visiting NYC in a white poly blend uniform. I had to burn mine after walking around the city for a day.

  • SIV||

    You delivering the milk?

  • Xenocles||

    The milk of freedom, baby! Yeah!

  • SIV||

    That's NYC. You can probably get a big old house in the hinterlands for peanuts as long as you don't have to pay to heat it in the winter. Come to think of it, there is a government program to pay heating bills for po' Yankee trash.

  • Drake||

    Yeah - it's called firewood. Hurricane Sandy took care of heat for all the townies.

  • Tulpa (LAOL-PA)||

    You don't need a car to get around in NYC. That's kind of the point.

  • Tman||

    NYC is a place like no other, and there isn't a better pastrami sandwich in the world than Katz deli, but to paraphrase Louis CK, it's basically a giant pile of garbage.

    This is still one of the best Onion stories ever.

    8.4 Million New Yorkers Suddenly Realize New York City A Horrible Place To Live 'We're Getting The Hell Out Of This Sewer,' Entire Populace Reports

  • Hyperion||

    That is classic.

    This:

    "You see this?" added McQuade, pointing at a real estate listing for a duplex in Hagerstown, MD. "Two bedrooms, two baths, a den—a fucking den—and a patio. Twelve hundred a month. That's total, not per person."

    Yeah, in Hagerstown. Fuck, you may as well be in a different state. There are places closer to Balmer(jerbz) that are in different states.

    I have 2 bedrooms and 2 baths, and a hell of a nice deck that I can actually grill on, in a gated community, in the city, for about $1500. And it's in the middle of a woods with a creek(fucking squirrels need to die) But really, within a 20 minute commute of downtown Balmer, you cannot get anything cheaper than that in a neighborhood, where you don't need to sleep with a bullet proof vest on and a fully automatic weapon under your pillow. Shit, in most neighborhoods within a 20 minute commute of downtown, I would be afraid to even go to sleep without someone I trusted standing guard with a full arsenal.

    That being said, it beats the living shit out of anything you can get in NYC, the jerbz here pay just as well, and plus the climate here is literally paradise in comparison to NYC.

    Anyway, back to Hagerstown. It's just too far out. Frederick, however, is doable and for damn sure the nicest town in MD, hands down. Maybe one of the nicest towns in the USA. In case I decide to stay in this commie state, I am definitely buying near there. If we could only oust the commies, I would be happy here.

  • Tman||

    I have not spent much time in MD but I do hear some good things about places other than Baltimore, which is also a dump.

    I will never live north of PA again though, because I like it when it's 65 in September/October, not 28 and raining.

    That's how I remember New England. September 3rd, 28 and raining. Happy fall.

    Fuck. That.

  • Archduke Pantsfan||

    You wouldn't make it 1 hour in Canada.
    Going for a run in -28 is exhilarating.

  • General Butt Naked||

    Ouch. My balls ascended into my abdomen just reading your comment.

    Excited about some freakin' hockey, ya hoser?

    I cannot wait for the end of withdrawals this weekend.

  • Archduke Pantsfan||

    I'm prepped. The best part is Center Ice and the Jets channel are free for the first 2 weeks. So therefore I will be watching hockey for 14 straight days.

  • General Butt Naked||

    Sweet. Does that mean the online center ice broadcasts as well?

    Also, were you the reasonoid that gave me the link for the online pirate hockey broadcasts? 'Cause if you are, I ned it again as I have lost it.

  • Archduke Pantsfan||

    No online gamecenter is only like 40 bucks for the whole season tho

    I've been using thefirstrow.eu for online sporting lately

  • General Butt Naked||

    Thx, I'll check it out. Those links come and go, it's good to have a couple in the pocket.

  • Hyperion||

    My wife has a friend in Calgary. She was telling me how much her friend likes it there and maybe if we decide to move, that we should visit there.

    I just told her, you'll freeze your arse off, dear, just forget about that. Keep in mind that the coldest winter my wife has ever spent in her life, is in Maryland.

  • Archduke Pantsfan||

    Calgary? Cold?
    HAH!

  • Archduke Pantsfan||

  • General Butt Naked||

    Oh hells no. That is too cold.

    Colder that the "D":

    sooo cold...

  • Hyperion||

    Fucks that shit

  • Hyperion||

    Holy Bejeebus, dude, where the fuck are you, Edmonton, or somewhere even farther north in an igloo village?

  • Archduke Pantsfan||

    I'm not nearly that far north. I'm on the 50th parallel.

  • Hyperion||

    Brrrr. I grew up mainly around 38-39 degrees north, which is where I am now. Wifey, 5 degrees latitude south, probably coldest temp ever around 65 degrees. Sure I could handle it with some acclimation, not sure about her, I think not.

  • Tman||

    Just read the forecast for Alberta. Supposed to be a high of 7f tomorrow.

    HAHA!

    How About No.

  • Hyperion||

    Winnipeg? Damn, is it really that cold there?

  • Archduke Pantsfan||

    It's not nearly as cold as Churchill right now.
    We did have a spell a few years ago where it didn't go above -20 for 3 weeks.

  • juris imprudent||

    Churchill means he is having carnal relations with polar bears.

  • Archduke Pantsfan||

    I remember studying Canadian History and I can't imagine what the Hudson Bay Co workers thought about Churchill in the 1700s.
    There was no interior route in the south then. You sailed the NW passage to Churchill, and in the summer paddled through black fly and mosquito infested lakes and rivers. In september you hunkered down until May.

    They didn't have the forecasting we do. They had no idea how many more days of cold they would have to endure.

  • juris imprudent||

    I'm betting $1B that all NY LEOs were exempted from this, both for duty weapons and off-duty.

  • Brendan||

    Of course.

    Quoting from the bill:
    (a) subsection (1) of section (E) shall not apply to law enforcement officers because fuck you, that's why.

  • Archduke Pantsfan||

    Tennis news: ESPN stopped showing the Ferrer match when they realized the American had no hope.

  • Coeus||

    Marcotte just quoted Ron Bailey. And linked to a reason article. About how scientists are right to hate the GOP. Doowhaaaa???

  • Hyperion||

    Ugh, you do know that you should stop reading Salon, now, right?

    Liberals quoting Libertarians, that is a real laugh. They hate us far more than they do the GOP. The GOP are just a bunch of clowns they can intimidate with the flimsiest of 'it's for the children' rhetoric. Libertarians on the other hand, tend to be more like herding cats.

  • Tman||

    It's Amanda Marcotte.

    I mean, what else do you need to say?

  • Hyperion||

    I never heard of her until just now, probably because I never read Salon. I am guilty of occasionally reading HuffPo, but I have to draw a line somewhere in order to keep a little sanity.

  • Tman||

    Holy shit she is terrible.

    All that's wrong with the left in one shiny shit stained package.

    Rachel Carson the hero?

    VOMIT.

  • mr simple||

    If you don't want to go bankrupt by federally supporting something, then you hate it and are totally against it. Sounds reasonable.

  • Hyperion||

    If progressives are for it, I am totally against it, and hate it. I don't even need to know what it is.

    No compromise with progressives. Fuck them, all.

  • General Butt Naked||

    If you don't want to go bankrupt by federally supporting something, then you hate it women, children and minorities are totally against it racist. Sounds reasonable.

    Oh and yer also a big ol' atheistic christfag.

  • Killazontherun||

    Hey, he might be one irresistibly sexy motherfucker, but Son of God? Come on!

  • General Butt Naked||

    Jesus has all the other religious icons beat in the abs department, hands down.

    Motherfucker works out, fo sho.

  • ||

    Dennis: I don't wanna get too bulky.

    Dee: Right.

    Dennis: I wanna stay nice and lean and tight. I wanna get that Jesus on the cross look. You know what I mean?

    Dee: I see what you're saying. I think that crucifixion must have been really good for your core because...

    Dennis: Oh, absolutely. Jesus had, like, the best abs. He had the right idea. Hey, he knew: no pain, no gain.

    Dee: He had good messages.

    Dennis: I'm sure he started that.

  • General Butt Naked||

    I want to get the side abs going.

  • Archduke Pantsfan||

  • General Butt Naked||

    You know what's awesome?

    Having a girlfriend so that I can laugh at people worried about having sufficient penis abs.

  • Hyperion||

    Fuck, even better, having a wife who doesn't even care about my beer belly even though she doesn't have an ounce of belly fat, haahhaaa.

    I mean, really, I need to get rid of this belly, but it's not keeping me from getting all the sex I want, so ... yeah, I am still motivated, I think, I just keep forgetting...

  • Archduke Pantsfan||

  • Hyperion||

    Well, that might be a problem... I mean when you can't even see your own dick, yeah, that could be an issue...

  • Tulpa (LAOL-PA)||

    Even better, if you're satisfied with autoeroticism you don't have to concern yourself with anyone else's opinion at all.

    A man and his pretty wife were strolling through the zoo when the male lion started following the woman's every move with his eyes. The husband said, "I think you have made a conquest. Wink at him." And she did, and at this the lion started stirring about restlessly. "Now blow him a kiss." She did, and the lion roared longingly at her and began lashing his tail. "That's enough," the husband said, hoisting her into the air and tossing her over the railing into the lion's enclosure. "Now tell HIM you have a headache!"
  • Coeus||

    He turned water into fine.

  • General Butt Naked||

    Winner winner, chicken dinner.

  • Hyperion||

    Meh. How about a nice chicken pot pie, hon?

  • Killazontherun||

    Nope. That is not something an athiestic christfag would say.

  • General Butt Naked||

    For y'alls viewing pleasure:

    Mega-capacity Assault Turkey v. Tannerite

    Oh, and I haven't been saying "mega-capacity" lately because I am making fun of grabbers (I am), it's because I have been seeing it lately to describe 30rnd mags.

  • Hyperion||

    Quasi SF link...

  • wingnutx||

    Link is broken.

    This one works.

  • General Butt Naked||

    Oh, excellent, thx.

  • wingnutx||

    I love tannerite.

  • General Butt Naked||

    Yup, I need to get me some.

  • Hyperion||

    Whoohooo, that blew up real good, yep.

  • Archduke Pantsfan||

    Suit claims Spurs violated state law

    The San Antonio Spurs are being sued by a lawyer who is alleging the team violated the state's deceptive and fair trade practices law.

    On Monday, Larry McGuinness filed a class-action suit in Miami-Dade County, stating Spurs coach Gregg Popovich "intentionally and surreptitiously" sent their best players home without the knowledge of the league, the team and the fans attending the Nov. 29 game against the Miami Heat. McGuinness contends that he, as well as other fans, "suffered economic damages" as a result of paying a premium price for a ticket that shouldn't cost more.
  • General Butt Naked||

    Really?

    Fuck man, we are now, undeniably in the Onion universe.

  • juris imprudent||

    As if being a lawyer couldn't be more of an indicator of assholeness.

  • Archduke Pantsfan||

    lawyers are the lowest form of life on the planet.
    they will probably outlive cockroaches.

  • Death Rock and Skull||

    America will become a Latin-American style rebelious shithole where retard after retard will kill each other and claim "power" over their filthy barrio for a few months at a time.

    Territorial warlords will be a diverse mix of ignorant redneck Jesus-dudes to ignorant inner city gangbanger thugs, maybe some power hungry military assholes will get through.

  • Killazontherun||

    From the Keys to West Texas. No roadz, no bridges. Sheer rape basement anarchy.

  • Hyperion||

    Sounds like a pretty good improvement to what we have now.

  • Killazontherun||

    Does to me too, and I have no illusions about whose going to wind up wearing the gimp mask, me or my neighbors.

  • Hyperion||

    I have actually spent time in parts of South America that would give your average liberal statist a fucking heart attack, and somehow, through some miracle, there was no mass chaos, no childins and wiminz lying dead in the streets, nothing like that. People walking down the street drinking beer, not confined inside of some plastic yellow barricade, surrounded by millions of dollars worth of paramilitary police squadrons ready to break heads and shoot dogs. And yet, everyone survived it.

  • Tulpa (LAOL-PA)||

    If it was good enough for the Roman Empire it's good enough for us.

  • wingnutx||

    I hope that no one I care about in NY gets hurt when hell breaks loose, but I definitely hope that it does break loose.

  • Hyperion||

    Not counting on it. If there is to be a revolt, I don't think it will start on the east coast, at least not north of Maryland.

  • wingnutx||

    I don't think there will be anything vaguely resembling a popular revolt.

    Lone nuts are everywhere, though. In a population that large somebody will lose it.

    What I'm not looking forward to is seeing the first poor bastard get 25 years for possessing a 10 round magazine.

  • Hyperion||

    I don't think there will be anything vaguely resembling a popular revolt

    Maybe not tomorrow, or the next day, or next year. But there will be. Why? Because tyrants never stop pushing it until they seal their own fate. They can't, even if they wanted to. This is the same ol story, once again. There will be a revolt, there is no question about that. It's only a matter of when.

  • Tulpa (LAOL-PA)||

    But it might be an unpopular revolt.

  • Hyperion||

    Unpopular with somebody, of course, that is a given.

    As far as that is concerned, I have heard that the American revolution was somewhat unpopular. Still happened, as will the next...

  • wingnutx||

    I'm just referring to NY.

    Some other areas are primed.

    BATF agent should be the most dangerous job on earth.

  • Hyperion||

    Yeah, well, I can't disagree with you there. If that happens, the feds might as well hang up their battle boots before it starts.

    Having lived all over the country, I have had to explain to lots of folks here on the east coast, just how differently those rednecks in flyover land, most conservatives, and all Libertarians, think, than what a lot of people here do. They really do not get it, the chasm is just too wide, and there is no hope for reconciliation. The line has been drawn, and there is no going back.

  • Archduke Pantsfan||

    Am I watching Sharapova or Porn? My neighbors don't know.

  • Stephdumas||

    I spotted this one via a post on City-Data forums http://www.city-data.com/forum.....-free.html about a video to suggest to put a lawn sign saying then this house is gun free.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v.....r_embedded

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