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Maybe it's a Little Bit Fun Being an Illegal Alien
As I pointed out in my speech post-write
this morning, President Obama claimed last night that forcing
healthy young people to buy insurance is critical because otherwise
it "costs all the rest of us money," in that "we pay for those
people's expensive emergency room visits." At the same time, he
insisted–not
very convincingly–that "the reforms I'm proposing would not
apply to those who are here illegally." Any rumors to the contrary,
the president asserted, are "false." (Damn those rumor-mongering
bastards at the
Congressional Research Service!)
Stepping aside from the welfare-for-illegals debate (which is what animates most interest in the topic), my question is this: If the government is coercing John and Jane Healthy to buy insurance so that the rest of us have to pay less money for their emergency room visits, on what planet does the same argument not apply to Juan y Juana Undocumento? (Or, if you prefer the real reason for forced insurance-buying, why should only the documented uninsured cross-subsidize their elders?) If we're really going to penalize twentysomethings for not buying insurance–and recall that as a candidate, back when he opposed Hillary Clinton's mandatory insurance plan, Obama said "To force people to get health insurance, you've got to have a very harsh penalty"–doesn't this mean that illegal residents will essentially enjoy an exemption from state sanction?
|9.10.09 @ 3:22PM|#
Does the President contradict himself? Very well then he contradicts himself. (Obama is large, he contains multitudes.)
|9.10.09 @ 3:22PM|#
I brought this up on, of all places, an Anglican blog and was immediately denounced as a racist. It told me all I needed to know.
|9.10.09 @ 3:26PM|#
They want:
1. A blurb in the law saying illegals aren't covered, to keep cost
estimates down and to not rile anyone who objects to paying
anything to someone here illegally.
2. Leave it unenforced, and interfere w/ any attempt to enforce it,
to make sure #1 doesn't actually happen.
Any attempts to point out that this is dishonest will be met with
charges of racism and "so you want a child to die because his
parents are illegal, you heartless bastard?!?!?". This is a
rhetorical device to take their being up front w/ the bill actually
doing this, and the costs involved, off the table.
New World Dan|9.10.09 @ 3:30PM|#
You force young healthy people to buy insurance for the same
reason you charge them social security taxes - because they'll
almost certainly need it when they're older. The young pay now for
the benefits they recieve later on in life. Much like later in life
they pay taxes to cover the education benefits they got as
children. Circle of life and all that.
Still, if it were up to me, I'd just give everyone a tax funded HSA
and wash my hands of the rest. But I'd also have open boarders with
automatic citizenship benefits after 7 years.
|9.10.09 @ 3:33PM|#
Fact check from the AP contradicts the CRS:
THE FACTS: The facts back up Obama. The House version of the health
care bill explicitly prohibits spending any federal money to help
illegal immigrants get health care coverage. Illegal immigrants
could buy private health insurance, as many do now, but wouldn't
get tax subsidies to help them. Still, Republicans say there are
not sufficient citizenship verification requirements to ensure
illegal immigrants are excluded from benefits they are not
due.
Text from the bill:
HR 3200, SUBTITLE C, SECTION 246
"Nothing in this subtitle shall allow Federal payments for
affordability credits on behalf of individuals who are not lawfully
present in the United States."
Matt, let's not hyperventilate too much here, that's LoneWhacker's
job.
|9.10.09 @ 3:34PM|#
The Supreme Court ruled back in the 70s that the Equal
Protection Clause prohibited a state from refusing public education
to children in the country illegally. I don't see how the clause
wouldn't also apply to Obamacare. They have to know that courts are
going to prevent the government from discriminating against Aliens
and are just lying about it.
Beyond that, even if you could exclude illegals, you are left with
the paradox of young healthy Americans facing harsh penalities for
not ponying up and subsidizing the healthcare system while illegals
walk away scott free free to game the system by not paying into it
and then demand care if they ever get sick.
Further, there is no way to force illegals to buy health insurance.
They are here illegally. How do you enforce such a provision?
|9.10.09 @ 3:34PM|#
You force young healthy people to buy insurance for the same
reason you charge them social security taxes - because they'll
almost certainly need it when they're older. The young pay now for
the benefits they recieve later on in life. Much like later in life
they pay taxes to cover the education benefits they got as
children. Circle of life and all that.
So....tax them while they're young for bennies the get when older,
and tax them while they're older for bennies they got when they
were young.
Why not just let them pay for what they get at any given age
themselves?
creech|9.10.09 @ 3:34PM|#
Please, people, Obamessiah does not lie. Read his words: "the reforms I'm proposing here would not apply to those who are here illegally." Cong. Wilson is wrong. Such people would not be forced to buy healthcare; they would continue to receive taxpayer-paid care in the emergency room just like they do today. No reform for you! Next!
|9.10.09 @ 3:36PM|#
In the implicit mandate-free health care provided to illegal
immigrants that Obama is intentionally obscuring is the way forward
on health care reform.
Not insuring those who either don't want or can't afford
insurance, and treating them in ERs as needed, costs vastly less
than the subsidies that a government mandate would require.
Health care of the poor without health insurance of the poor is not
only possible: it is cheaper.
Walt Whitman |9.10.09 @ 3:36PM|#
John Thacker | September 10, 2009, 3:22pm | #
Does the President contradict himself? Very well then he
contradicts himself. (Obama is large, he contains
multitudes.)
My lawyer however believes in residuals, so we'll be needing a
check from you, cutey.
|9.10.09 @ 3:39PM|#
Hey, if Obama is promising not to cover illegals, and anyone who opposes covering illegals is heartless, vicious, and a racist, then isn't Obama a heartless racist bastard?
|9.10.09 @ 3:41PM|#
My lawyer however believes in residuals
My lawyer believes in the public domain for poems published
(depending on how you want to count small tweaks) between 1855 and
1867.
You force young healthy people to buy insurance for the same reason you charge them social security taxes - because they'll almost certainly need it when they're older.
No, you force young healthy people to buy insurance because if you
force insurers to cover everyone and charge the same rate
regardless of previous conditions (guaranteed issue and community
rating, both in the bill), then young people won't buy insurance
until they get sick, as in NY.
@|9.10.09 @ 3:42PM|#
on what planet does the same argument not apply to Juan y
Juana Undocumento?
I don't know, but I just watched the David Shuster/Tamron Hall
freakfest on MSNBC, and the hosts were beside themselves that their
Republican guest/ambushee would not denounce Joe Wilson's horrific
crime last night against Dear Leader. The guest wouldn't admit that
Wilson was "wrong"! Tamron got her scientifically enhanced tits in
a wringer, and Shuster looked like he would vomit. Compelling TV,
America. Look for Chris Matthews to call for an investigation, and
Ed Schultz to declare jihad against the right-wing infidels.
The Legal Department at Disney|9.10.09 @ 3:44PM|#
Public domain? Ha! We're killing it the next session of Congress.
Matt Welch|9.10.09 @ 3:44PM|#
let's not hyperventilate too much here
Who's hyperventilating? I said Obama's pledge was "not very
convincing," not "a horrible lie," or "a dangerous threat to the
country." The AP "debunk" on that takes the existence of that
language in the as-yet non-existent bill at face value, without
factoring in the (utter absence of) enforcement mechanism.
And at any rate, my point is that both the stated and unstated
logic of insuring young citizens surely should apply to illegal
aliens as well.
|9.10.09 @ 3:47PM|#
And at any rate, my point is that both the stated and
unstated logic of insuring young citizens surely should apply to
illegal aliens as well.
And my point is the reverse.
Russ 2000|9.10.09 @ 3:47PM|#
If we're really going to penalize twentysomethings for not
buying insurance
Go to ehealthinsurance.com and get health insurance quotes for a
twenty-something.
The quote for IL residents is reasonable even for a cashier making
$300 a week. The quote for a 20-something NY or MA resident making
the same wage is outrageous.
In other words, presently some states punish 20-somethings FOR
buying health insurance. So they don't buy it.
Until the president stops his theoretical musings of what the
market is like and starts talking about the reality of today's
market, he can shove ANY IDEA HE HAS up his ass.
Essentially he wants insurance without risk-pricing. How did
mortgages without risk-pricing turn out?
Hard to believe someone could be denser than Dubya, but Obama sure
is.
|9.10.09 @ 3:49PM|#
The point is to implement it saying it doesn't cover illegals then, when the USSC cites precedent and rules that provision unconstitutional, you shrug your shoulders and say your hands are tied. Of course you knew all along what was going to happen, but it takes actors to run this kabuki show, ya know.
|9.10.09 @ 3:50PM|#
Also, I don't see how it is constitutional to force people to
buy health insurance. They get around the issue with auto insurance
by using the old "you are using public roads so driving is a
priviledge" dodge. Indeed, my grandfather had pickups he never used
anywhere but his ranch and thus never bothered to register or
insure them.
But this is different. You can't avoid this requirement. I don't
think the courts will go for it.
|9.10.09 @ 3:50PM|#
Now I understand, those folks not paying taxes for health insurance can then work cheaper (and take our jobs) and still have the same take home pay as real Americans. (just helping the Loneone).
|9.10.09 @ 3:57PM|#
And at any rate, my point is that both the stated and
unstated logic of insuring young citizens surely should apply to
illegal aliens as well.
???
I suppose it does, if we want to be silly. This is a bit like
noting that criminals are supposed to declare and pay taxes on
their "income".
Put another way, if we find these illegals, tax them and force
insurance upon them, shouldn't we just grant them citizenship
already? :-)
|9.10.09 @ 3:59PM|#
Also, I don't see how it is constitutional to force people
to buy health insurance. They get around the issue with auto
insurance by using the old "you are using public roads so driving
is a priviledge" dodge.
AFAIK, those requirements are all at the state level, thus,
depending on your state Constitution, perfectly constitutional.
They are also protective of third parties, not the insured, against
acts of the driver. I'm not a big fan of mandatory liability, but I
can understand it.
Mandatory federal health care, however, is something completely
different.
|9.10.09 @ 4:01PM|#
"Mandatory federal health care, however, is something completely
different."
It is saying you must pay for your healthcare via insurance rather
than out of pocket.
PimpleDick|9.10.09 @ 4:03PM|#
"Maybe it's a Little Bit Fun Being an Illegal Alien"
Not always:
I thought I'd heard every possible charge about corruption at
ACORN, a feisty, union-backed activist group that became infamous
last year when it was investigated for voter registration fraud in
15 states. Just yesterday, 11 ACORN workers were accused by Florida
prosecutors of falsifying information on some 900 voter
registration forms.
But this morning brings a Fox News report that ACORN officials in
Baltimore offered to help get a housing loan and falsify tax
documents for a proposed house of prostitution that would employ
underage girls from El Salvador. The episode was captured on tape
by an undercover filmmaker, James O'Keefe, who wanted to see just
how far ACORN would go. Watching the tape -- which can be seen at
Biggovernment.com -- is a creepy experience. ACORN itself has told
Fox News the episode represents "gotcha journalism" but wouldn't
comment further until it sees the full tape.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970203440104574404962227305566.html
|9.10.09 @ 4:06PM|#
Put another way, if we find these illegals, tax them and force insurance upon them, shouldn't we just grant them citizenship already? :-)
Well, we could be smart like Texas and other states that use sales
taxes and property taxes, which illegals pay. (The latter because
they mostly rent, and property tax gets passed on as rent.)
PimpleDick|9.10.09 @ 4:10PM|#
Barack Obama's America is a land in which undocumented workers would be forced into back-alley health care clinics.
|9.10.09 @ 4:19PM|#
Mandatory federal health care, however, is something
completely different.
Hey, you never know. You could have a massive, head-on collision
with someone on the sidewalk one day.
|9.10.09 @ 4:45PM|#
Not misunderstand me please, but IF we really did have to have socialized health care...I would much prefer that the government just write checks for all health care bills and tax us accordingly(or run up even bigger deficits) instead of making everyone "buy" health "insurance"? this seems like the biggest scam ever. All the bad things from socialism(more rationing, more red tape etc) with none of the benefits...insurance companies can force us to pay?! wtf? democrats are liking this idea? Tony?
Brian|9.10.09 @ 4:53PM|#
Whoa...I have that 12-inch "Illegal Alien" single someplace. Second most embarrassing Genesis moment ever (after "Pigeons").
|9.10.09 @ 4:59PM|#
Gabe is right.
The way illegal immigrants are handled today should be the freaking
model for health care provision for the poor.
The entirety of uncompensated health care in the US amounts to $40
billion per year. That is a paltry 2% of the $2+ trillion spent on
health care in the US.
If 40-blah-blah million uninsured, including or not including 12
million illegal residents, costs 2% of the total health care
expenditure year in and year out, Congress should count its
blessings, work to better compensate the hospitals that suffer the
worst of the uncompensated care, and stop trying to mandate
that people have insurance!
|9.10.09 @ 5:42PM|#
"If we're really going to penalize twentysomethings for not
buying insurance .... doesn't this mean that illegal residents will
essentially enjoy an exemption from state sanction?"
There is indeed a black market, or underground economy involving
illegal aliens, heavily merged with the drug trade. There is also a
rapidly growing informal economy among supposedly "progressive"
hipsters, that involves barter mechanisms such as labor trading,
which avoids both taxation and regulation since no cash is
involved. (Ironically, considering these people are generally the
first people to demand more federal involvement in everyone else's
economic lives.) The growing number of illegal aliens, as well as
the growth of mechanisms like craigslist, has allowed these two
informal markets to merge and strengthen to an extent.
Also, there is already fee-for-service medical clinics in my area
such as Concentra, that largely cater to illegal aliens. They are
surprisingly cheap, and have a clear sign over the desk listing
prices for various procedures. I.e. "Basic Doctor's Visit: $129",
"Advanced Examination: $239" etc.
jdog|9.10.09 @ 7:42PM|#
I'm confused. If the gubmint forces someone to buy something it has to force someone to sell it to you. How is the price set in this arrangement?
jester|9.10.09 @ 8:23PM|#
Tacos are more expensive than posted. Just post the real price
to those interested with an asterisk.
Let us do the arithmatic. We all learn arithmatic at a you age.
Just don't call it math. People get scared.
Lindsay Beyerstein|9.10.09 @ 9:00PM|#
Why should health insurers care whether someone's here legally
or not? Private insurance doesn't give a rat's ass if you're a
citizen. Why should the government care?
The public option will finance itself exclusively through premiums.
As long as someone is paying their premiums, they're part of the
solution.
Undocumented migrants tend to skew young and healthy. Insurers love
young healthy people who pay their premiums, because they balance
out the old sick people who cost all the money.
Migrants are also more likely to leave before they get to the
inevitable old and expensive phase of life. So, premium-paying
migrants can help make everyone's insurance cheaper.
The alternative is keep our ERs clogged with charity cases that
drive up the price of care for insured people.
Remind me again what the point of excluding migrants is, other than
cutting off our nose to spite our face?
Matt Welch|9.10.09 @ 9:01PM|#
Also, there is already fee-for-service medical clinics in my
area such as Concentra, that largely cater to illegal aliens. They
are surprisingly cheap, and have a clear sign over the desk listing
prices for various procedures. I.e. "Basic Doctor's Visit: $129",
"Advanced Examination: $239" etc.
This sounds like a fascinating topic for a feature article! Where
is your area, Hazel Meade? (You can send me an e-mail if you
prefer.)
SIV|9.10.09 @ 9:31PM|#
Private insurance doesn't give a rat's ass if you're a
citizen. Why should the government care?
You answer that question yourself Lindsay.
As long as someone is paying their premiums
Why should American workers subsidize social welfare programs for
labor that has a competitive advantage over them--like not having
to pay the "premiums"
Michael Ejercito|9.10.09 @ 9:39PM|#
Why not exclude sex offenders from public heqalth
benefits?
Beyond that, even if you could exclude illegals, you are left with the paradox of young healthy Americans facing harsh penalities for not ponying up and subsidizing the healthcare system while illegals walk away scott free free to game the system by not paying into it and then demand care if they ever get sick.
Why not deport the illegal aliens when they get sick?
Lindsay Beyerstein|9.10.09 @ 10:30PM|#
SIV: As long as people are paying their own premiums, they are
part of the solution. According to Shikha Dalmia of the Reason
Foundation, two
thirds of undocumented migrants (8 million people) already pay
Social Security, Medicare, and personal income taxes.
Why not let them buy into the public option if they want? The
public option will finance itself through premiums, like any
private insurance. Americans would not be subsidizing migrants who
paid into the system.
Better to have people insured than uninsured. If they're insured,
they're paying their own way. If they're uninsured and they get
sick, we pay for them. Which would you prefer?
|9.11.09 @ 1:51AM|#
Matt, I am in Tucson, Arizona. Hence, lots of illegals
around.
Incidentally, here's Concentra's urgent care website:
http://www.concentraurgentcare.com/
Steal my idea. Seriously. This afternoon I was fantasizing about
going aroudn and interviewing them to find out what effect health
insurance reform would have on their business.
|9.11.09 @ 2:01AM|#
Beyond that, even if you could exclude illegals, you are
left with the paradox of young healthy Americans facing harsh
penalities for not ponying up and subsidizing the healthcare system
while illegals walk away scott free free to game the system by not
paying into it and then demand care if they ever get
sick.
Don't worry, soon the "progressives" will figure out that the moral
thing to do is to force the illegals to buy insurance, but then
deny them care anyway.
|9.11.09 @ 2:17AM|#
Addendum:
I don't know for sure that Concentra caters mostly to illegals. It
just seemed likely given the way the prices are posted over the
desk, and the number of Hispanic looking people in the lobby. To be
honest, I was surprised places like this even existed. I had no
idea you could walk into an urgent care clinic anywhere in the
country and know exactly how much you are going to be charged from
a sign on the wall.
|9.11.09 @ 10:54AM|#
Why not let them buy into the public option if they want?
The public option will finance itself through premiums, like any
private insurance. Americans would not be subsidizing migrants who
paid into the system.
I can't tell whether you're being funny or whether you just don't
know: Poor consumers -- and by poor, Congress means 300% to 400% of
the poverty line -- will receive subsidies to purchase their
mandated health insurance.
Since in reality or perception the great majority of illegal
immigrants would fall into this category, they of course are not
eligible for that targeted welfare.
|9.11.09 @ 11:00AM|#
On what planet do John and Jane Healthy live? Are they some kind
of statistical creation? John never gets injured at the gym and
Jane never gets pregnant? And if she does, there are never
complications? Are John and Jane leave their twenties and enter
their thirties, are they going to stay "Healthy"?
A basic principle of any welfare system is that the young (and
healthy) right now pay for the aged in good faith that, when they
are old (and/or sick), the young(and healthy) will continue to do
the same.
|9.11.09 @ 11:49AM|#
A basic principle of any welfare system is that only people
who cannot afford to take care of themselves
participate.
Otherwise you get truly hellish programs like Social Security and
Medicare, where poor 18-year-olds have 15% of their income taken
away and given to millionaires.
|9.11.09 @ 12:07PM|#
The Right Wing 'Christians' feel that it would be perfectly OK
with them and their Jesus to step over the diseased bodies of
illegal aliens in the streets of America. (I think the last time I
looked in The Bible, it was page 753 that had a picture of The Lord
and Savior, sneering and cursing at a pile of the sick and blaming
them for their illnesses.) Personally, I would prefer not to have
to have all that. But let's all pretend that closing our eyes and
sticking our fingers in our ears and wishing a problem had a simple
solution (I believe that is on page 1 of The Bible)is the grown-up
way to deal with any problem. After all, coat-hanger abortions
never really happened, did they?
I'm honestly not sure of the page numbers referenced here. Bill
O'Reilly would be happy to point those out for us. Please address
any questions you have on this post to him. Just be sure to remind
him that in the real Christian world, the one with a Jesus in it,
that you can hold the views he does or you can call yourself a
Christian, but you cannot do both and be taken seriously.
PETE|9.11.09 @ 2:04PM|#
One of my pet peeves about Reason is their linking to articles
(generally from scrupulous sources like the Washington Times)
interpreting certain documents, and not the documents themselves.
Just because FAIR and the Washington Examiner say the CRS says a
certain thing doesn't make it so. Did you read that CRS report,
Matt?
(Forgive me if this has been covered in this lively thread
already)
The CRS report does indeed say, as quoted by the WE: "H.R. 3200
does not contain any restrictions on noncitzens - whether legally
or illegally present, or in the United States temporarily or
permanently - participating in the Exchange"
But so what? Nothing is barring illegals from BUYING insurance on
the exchange, just like nothing is barring them from buying it on
the private market now. What changes? If there's a public option
included, they'll be able to pay for that as well. Nothing changes.
I guess it's technically true that since nothing is specifically
barring illegals from participating, you could say "Obamacare will
cover illegals ZOMFG!" but they'll be paying for insurance just
like they do now! What most of these scare tactics are about (the
chain emails and such) are that Obamacare will be showering
illegals in our hard-earned tax dollars, which isn't true.
Back to the CRS report, on the subsidies (said tax dollars) that
can be applied for to help pay for insurance:
"Some have expressed concerns that since H.R. 3200 does not contain
a mechanism to verify
immigration status, the prohibitions on certain noncitizens (e.g,
nonimmigrants and unauthorized aliens) receiving the credits may
not be enforced. However, others note that under §142(a)(3) of the
bill, it is the responsibility of the Health Choices Commissioner
(Commissioner) to administer the "individual affordability credits
under subtitle C of title II, including determination of
eligibility for such credits." Thus, it appears, absent of a
provision in the bill specifying the verification procedure, that
the Commissioner would be responsible for determining a mechanism
to verify the eligibility of noncitizens for the credits."
So there is oversight in place. There is verification. What John
said earlier about the Dems being confident the courts would bar
them from excluding illegals is definitely interesting, but as you
can see above, there is someone tasked with the responsibility of
weeding out fraudulent (not only illegals can commit fraud)
applications for subsidies. Aside from the commissioner, presumably
in order to apply for these subsidies you'll have to produce a SS#,
or be subject to further scrutiny from the IRS if the benefits come
in the form of a tax credit.
So the best argument the Joe Wilson supporters can make amounts
to:
"There are possible loopholes through which illegals - along with
anyone else, but ignore them for whatever reason - can commit
fraud. And while there are protections in place against fraud, they
are not sufficient IMHO, and not sufficiently targeting illegals
specifically. Therefore, Obama and the Democrats want to give free
money to illegals. QED."
Not convincing.
Also, you have to ignore sec. 261 or imply that it's just a cover
for Obama's dastardly plans (John's argument is the best angle I've
heard on this point). Plus you have to ignore the inconvenient fact
that there are many ways through which illegals - along with anyone
else who doesn't have insurance for whatever reason - can get
taxpayer-funded care right now, without even having to commit
fraud! Bonus!
|9.11.09 @ 3:36PM|#
"...on what planet does the same argument not apply to Juan y
Juana Undocumento? "
Leaving aside the policy argument in your post, the above line
really detracts from the point you are trying to make. There are
reasoned debates to be made about this issue regarding health care
policy and illegal immigration. Trotting out fake spanish is just
absurd. Why not go ahead and call them El Frito Banditos?
Fake Spanish isn't cute. And what Matt Steinglass said over at
True/Slant was mainly correct: you shouldn't have gone there.
It's grating and obnoxious and bordering on the stereoytpical, and
as a Latina (don't worry folks! I've got my papers and everything!)
I found it to be a cheap shot.
|9.11.09 @ 7:57PM|#
This debate on health care is all hand-waving. No hospital will
turn away a sick person because of insurance issues or immigration
status. That is revolting.
What happens though, is that this is charity care and it is
expensive and poorly managed and we all end up paying for it.
The government already pays for almost all of the sickest Americans
(such as those on dialysis, the lifelong care of extremely low
birthweight infants).
We already have very bad socialized medicine since everyone pays
for this. It is redundant and some people have found a way to
profit from it.
shorthanded|9.11.09 @ 9:38PM|#
"Juan y Juana Undocumento"
If you know of a pair of similarly-named but male/female illegal
aliens, why haven't you called the authorities before they mate and
create an anchor baby?
Or is this just your cute generic name for undocumented
workers?
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