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I Take Thee to be My Lawful Contractual Partner
But aren't monogamous contracts "unrealistic"? This claim makes no sense. If 50% of people who vow life-long monogamy keep their promise, what's "unrealistic" about it? Monogamy is no more unrealistic than hundreds of promises that we expect people to keep - to show up for work on time, buy lunch next time, pay their workers, or give dissatisfied customers their money back. In each instance, if you think the terms are onerous, refuse them. Don't say yes, then blame the fates.
But what about human weakness? Here I take a hard line: Human weakness is a choice, and it should be criticized, not excused. I'm particularly baffled when economists say otherwise. In what economic model is "lots of people feel tempted to do it" a reason to turn a blind eye?
Fluffy|9.2.09 @ 12:40PM|#
A contract for personal services from which one cannot withdraw
is peonage and involuntary servitude.
Next argument.
|9.2.09 @ 12:42PM|#
To quote one of the most sensible things Kanye West has ever said: "holla we want pre-nup."
JB|9.2.09 @ 12:45PM|#
What actually is a 'marriage contract'?
Can I add a clause that says 'refusing to perform sexual services
nulls the contract'?
|9.2.09 @ 12:46PM|#
If 50% of people who vow life-long monogamy keep their
promise, what's "unrealistic" about it? Monogamy is no more
unrealistic than hundreds of promises that we expect people to keep
- to show up for work on time
Why don't I have marriage vacation days?
|9.2.09 @ 12:51PM|#
Too bad a 'marriage contract' isn't a contract in the
traditional sense.
I think that if someone sat down at a lawyer's desk, looked through
35 pages of "wills and won'ts", saw the terms and conditions, slept
on it for a couple of days and then signed; there would be a lot
less of this "divorce" bullshit happening.
|9.2.09 @ 12:53PM|#
SugarFree | September 2, 2009, 12:46pm | #
Why don't I have marriage vacation days?
Umm, hunting season, fishing season, football season, hockey
season and festivus. If you don't use your alloted time, that's
your fault, no cash in at the end of service.
Next!
Cabeza de Vaca|9.2.09 @ 1:00PM|#
To quote one of the most sensible things Kanye West has ever said: "I love fish sticks, I love putting them in my mouth."
Mike Riggs|9.2.09 @ 1:05PM|#
Are you all recovering from hangovers? Why the hell has no one
pointed out that this line is total bullshit?
"If 50% of people who vow life-long monogamy keep their
promise, what's "unrealistic" about it?"
By definition, monogamy explicitly demands fidelity to only one
partner over the lifetime of a relationship (or contract, as robot
boy calls it). There is absolutely no evidence to suggest that an
absence of divorce in all cases equates to an absence of
infidelity. In fact, some people are able to stay married only by
fucking other people.
Caplan = weird.
|9.2.09 @ 1:09PM|#
Why don't I have marriage vacation days?
You fool! You did not negotiate any vacations before you got
married?!! I hope you did not negotiate your compensation from you
job so poorly. You should have joined the Spousal Indentured
Servant Union, they got me three weeks of marital vacation a year
plus a guaranteed 2 blow jobs a week whether I work or not. I am
also guaranteed "retirement" after 20 years.
|9.2.09 @ 1:19PM|#
Since the only sensible reason to get married nowadays is for government imposed reasons (tax, health care, child custody), it isn't even a contract, it's a capitulation to the state. If you don't need the stuff you get from the government for doing so, don't do it.
JB|9.2.09 @ 1:28PM|#
SugarFree, the day my future wife won't have sex with me is the
day we are divorced.
At least as far as I'm concerned.
Brian Sorgatz|9.2.09 @ 1:40PM|#
Maybe Cupid's work is inherently too unstable for any explicit or implicit contract. Maybe a husband or wife should have the prerogative of saying "You're fired" as easily as a private-sector employer can.
short, fat bastard|9.2.09 @ 1:42PM|#
SugarFree, the day my future wife won't have sex with me is
the day we are divorced.
Don't bother getting married then.
kinnath|9.2.09 @ 1:43PM|#
I kept telling my kids to go for the three-year contract with option to renew. But they wouldn't listen to me.
|9.2.09 @ 1:54PM|#
SugarFree, the day my future wife won't have sex with me is
the day we are divorced.
I'm assuming you aren't planning on being the high earner in your
marriage. Because when you file for divorce, the assets get split
50/50, and whoever the higher earner is gets cleaned out.
|9.2.09 @ 1:57PM|#
Maybe a husband or wife should have the prerogative of
saying "You're fired" as easily as a private-sector employer
can.
I did it to my ex-boyfriend. We lived together for 12 years. It
wasn't so much "you're fired" as "I can see you're miserable and
unproductive in this relationship and I think it's time to call it
a day."
|9.2.09 @ 1:57PM|#
"What actually is a 'marriage contract'?"
Another example of Suderman's shit talking.
|9.2.09 @ 2:01PM|#
I understand why there is so much angst against marriage in this culture. I hear about it all the time from friends and co-workers. However, there is such a thing as a real marriage that includes mutual respect, and lots of sex. And don't think because I said that that I'm a newly wed, unless you think 11 years 3 kids in is still new.
|9.2.09 @ 2:15PM|#
In law school, my contracts professor kept saying "breach is
good," and that contract law provides specific remedies with the
expectation that sometimes contracts will be breached because it is
in one's best interests to so. For example, if A agrees to sell his
widget to B for $100, but soon after the agreement A sells his
widget to C for $150, then A has breached the contract with B. So B
buys a widget from D for $120. To compensate B for his extra
expense, A pays B $20. B is no worse off than if the contract had
been honored, and A is better off (by $30). In other words
sometimes it's best to break an agreement and the law provides for
that.
As an aside I will say that this monogamy thing is a female, not a
male issue. I have yet to know a gay male couple who have been
together more than 4-5 years and are still monogamous.
|9.2.09 @ 2:26PM|#
"If 50% of people who vow life-long monogamy keep their
promise, what's "unrealistic" about it?"
Link? And how exactly do you get accurate numbers, seeing as how
people have an incredibly high incentive to lie about sex?
Just pulling numbers out of my ass -- I'm guessing that in the
U.S., the real numbers are about 50% of married women remain
completely monogamous, and maybe 20% to 40% of men do so.
OK, just googled it, and got this: "If such fountains of
scholarship as Alfred Kinsey's famous "reports," Cosmopolitan, and
Shere Hite's Hite Report (1987) are to be believed, there's a whole
lot of cheating going on in America. In his 1948 and 1953 tomes,
Kinsey said that about half the men in his samples, and a quarter
of the women, had committed adultery. More recently, Cosmopolitan
and Hite came up with even higher figures: Just over half of
married women and 72 percent of married men supposedly had done
some running around. The apparent truth of the matter is far less
lurid, contends Greeley, a University of Chicago sociologist, as
well as a Catholic priest and best-selling novelist.
None of the statistics brandished by Kinsey and the pop authorities
who followed him were based on a carefully designed, random survey
of a cross section of Americans. These "experts" interviewed only
selected--and in some cases, self-selected--groups of people
willing to talk about their intimate lives."
Among my parent's children, there is a 0% incidence of marital
fidelity -- 0 for 5.
But maybe that's just us.
hammeredHead|9.2.09 @ 2:27PM|#
There are no explicit terms spelled out. Therefore I do not view it as a valid contract to be enforced. It should have as much standing as Honey-I-will-paint-the-house-this-weekend contracts.
|9.2.09 @ 2:29PM|#
However, there is such a thing as a real marriage that
includes mutual respect, and lots of sex.
You do know that that does not preclude marital infidelity,
yeah?
Just saying ...
|9.2.09 @ 2:33PM|#
JB | September 2, 2009, 1:28pm | #
SugarFree, the day my future wife won't have sex with me is the day
we are divorced.
At least as far as I'm concerned.
HAHAHAHAHA!
* wipes tears of laughter from eyes *
You do know that having sex without rape requires consent? And that
inevitably, your future wife will just not be in the mood because
you said something that pissed her off, or she's tired, or some
other random event.
I would suggest you make this intention known to anyone you date,
so you can remain happily single.
|9.2.09 @ 2:37PM|#
Since the only sensible reason to get married nowadays is
for government imposed reasons (tax, health care, child custody),
it isn't even a contract, it's a capitulation to the state. If you
don't need the stuff you get from the government for doing so,
don't do it.
I'm curious, epi -- where do you find these libertarian women who
will date you indefinitely and never want to get married, and never
break up with you over that?
Because this seems contrary to nearly all the women I've ever met
-- though admittedly there may be some sampling bias occurring.
|9.2.09 @ 2:46PM|#
Yeah.... JB's future wife... A guy who spends all his time swearing on the internet is probably beating the ladies off with a stick.
JB|9.2.09 @ 2:51PM|#
And that inevitably, your future wife will just not be in
the mood because you said something that pissed her off, or she's
tired, or some other random event.
The occasional good excuse is understandable, but pulling that on
an even semi-infrequent basis is total bullshit.
You are probably right on staying single though. Most women I meet
don't come anywhere near competing with porn. And I'm not talking
about looks. Porn doesn't cry, doesn't whine, doesn't have
diseases, etc.
JB|9.2.09 @ 2:53PM|#
Yeah.... JB's future wife... A guy who spends all his time
swearing on the internet is probably beating the ladies off with a
stick.
I got called an 8 the other day so w/e.
T|9.2.09 @ 2:59PM|#
However, there is such a thing as a real marriage that
includes mutual respect, and lots of sex.
Yes, but the sex has to be with each other or else it
doesn't count.
|9.2.09 @ 3:06PM|#
Could this post by Suderman be considered a pre-emptive strike in light of his upcoming nuptials?
Gunboat Diplomacy|9.2.09 @ 3:16PM|#
"And that inevitably, your future wife will just not be in the
mood because you said something that pissed her off"
Ten fucking years ago.
Gunboat Diplomacy|9.2.09 @ 3:17PM|#
"Could this post by Suderman be considered a pre-emptive strike
in light of his upcoming nuptials?"
Every Suderman post is about Suderman.
Gunboat Diplomacy|9.2.09 @ 3:19PM|#
" Porn doesn't cry, doesn't whine, doesn't have diseases,
etc."
Imaginary lovers,
Never let you down,
When all the others,
Turn you away,
Thet're around.
T|9.2.09 @ 3:45PM|#
Ten fucking years ago.
If you can go that long without pissing your wife off, you're
better than I am. I'm doing good to get past 24 hours.
|9.2.09 @ 3:53PM|#
I've lived with my wife for 25 years this month, married for 23
of that. She brings up shit I did wrong from before we ever met.
It's a gift.
FWIW, I get laid as often as she needs me to.
Fluffy|9.2.09 @ 3:53PM|#
However, there is such a thing as a real marriage that
includes mutual respect, and lots of sex. And don't think because I
said that that I'm a newly wed, unless you think 11 years 3 kids in
is still new.
I'll put the person who posted this is a woman.
All women think their marriages involve lots of sex. Hell, all
women think their marriages involve excessive sex. What
the other posters are complaining about is that women and men have
different definitions of "lots".
Gunboat Diplomacy|9.2.09 @ 3:56PM|#
Oh no, I used to piss her off all of the time, it's just that
she would pull something out of her magic bag of tricks that was
ten years old because she knew it would be effective.
Eventually, I threw her out, which she never expected I would do
because like any spouse abuser, she controlled the purse strings
and as an MBA with a concentration in finance, she set things up so
that booting her ass out would trigger financial suicide, which I
decided was preferable to shooting her in the head.
But that was twelve years ago and was witout a doubt, the smartest
move I have ever made, especially given that I am now quite well
off and mortgage/debt free, while she likely now holds a mortgage
on her San Francisco home that has her owing more than the property
is currently worth (she bought it four years ago).
Ha ha ha ha ha ha!
BOOM!
Gunboat Diplomacy|9.2.09 @ 3:59PM|#
BTW, what really pissed her off at the end was my sister
teaching me about not being pulled into a senseless argument. She'd
pull something out of her bag of tricks and it no longer produced
the reaction she desired. Frustrated the hell out of her.
Ha ha ha ha ha ha!
BOOM!
(God I love my sister!)
hammeredHead|9.2.09 @ 4:02PM|#
Was married for four years, it was horrible. I was the high
earner, but in 2002 with the market collapse and me spending like a
drunken Obusha, I was able to get rid of her for a bargan basment
price of 15k. Luckily I had bought the house before the marriage
and kept it while only having to pay her for the principal paydown.
On a 30yr morgage, that was minimal.
Looking back I wonder, is there really any reason to ever get
married. If you earn nearlt the same there are major tax
consiquences. If one works and the other doesn't the worker is
getting taken advantage of. Add to this the hassle of ending it and
it rreally seems like a terrible idea.
|9.2.09 @ 4:09PM|#
I got married. I'm still married to the same person. We haven't
run around on each other.
It's pretty nice.
|9.2.09 @ 4:17PM|#
You've got to get to them at the right age. 18 is perfect. After
they break up with their dumbass high school boyfriend but before
they whore their way through college and learn to hate men.
I'm terrified of my wife leaving me/dying before me. I'd have to
date some woman my age and they aren't going to fall for my
bullshit. And they'll all have ex-husbands and kids. Fuck that
shit.
hammeredHead|9.2.09 @ 4:23PM|#
You've got to get to them at the right age. 18 is perfect.
After they break up with their dumbass high school boyfriend but
before they whore their way through college and learn to hate
men.
You can often go a little older. There is a 25 year old near my
lake house that married her high school moronic boy friend. They
are now divorced and she is just starting the next stage.
Gunboat Diplomacy|9.2.09 @ 4:23PM|#
I was able to get rid of her for a bargan basment price of
15k."
For me it was more than $80K in 1997 dollars
Gunboat Diplomacy|9.2.09 @ 4:26PM|#
"I'd have to date some woman my age and they aren't going to
fall for my bullshit."
No you won't. I was 42 and the first woman I dated was a cute
little blonde senior in college who for some odd reason had a mad
crush on me.
She was a bit too clingy so I ended it after about three months.
Best head I ever got.
And you work where, Sweetman?
|9.2.09 @ 4:28PM|#
There is a 25 year old
I've always wondered if there is another sweet spot, like after the
first childless marriage. Still have the ex-husband though. And
widows probably weep a lot. Maybe a widow who didn't like her
husband...
|9.2.09 @ 4:29PM|#
And you work where
Yeah, but then I'd have to raise another one. I'm a kept man,
Gunboat. I've become accustomed to a certain lifestyle.
hammeredHead|9.2.09 @ 4:31PM|#
For me it was more than $80K in 1997 dollars
I would have still seen it as worth it. My net worth has exploded
in the seven years since the divorce and I don't have to share it
with anyone.
Once you enter your high-earning years, it is a good idea buy out
any old contracts and refrain from entering new ones until nearing
retirement. Thanks to the divorce, I can probably retire in seven
years (48).
hammeredHead|9.2.09 @ 4:50PM|#
I've always wondered if there is another sweet spot, like
after the first childless marriage. Still have the ex-husband
though. And widows probably weep a lot. Maybe a widow who didn't
like her husband...
He had an affair with a woman on of all things his navy vessal. He
is out of the picture
Gunboat Diplomacy|9.2.09 @ 4:56PM|#
Wrote a little ditty about it:
Everything without you is wonderful,
Everything without you is great,
Everything without you is fantastic,
So glad I scraped you off my plate.
|9.2.09 @ 5:24PM|#
Since we're speaking of
Stupid people.
Sorry for the threadjack but well worth it.
|9.2.09 @ 5:43PM|#
Hey, you'd best be prepared to honor your contract with Megan.
Many of us are rather fond of her.
Best regards,
--Colin
Gunboat Diplomacy|9.2.09 @ 7:04PM|#
"Many of us are rather fond of her."
Is that what the kids are calling it these days?
|9.2.09 @ 7:38PM|#
Gunny,
Well, I think my wife would disapprove and Peter would be creeped
out if I posted 'because I have a huge crush on the much-my-junior
blogger to whom you are engaged.'
So, I think I'll stick with "fond" and hope that Peter is as good
to her as I think she deserves, with many years of happiness (and
mutually-agreed-to fidelity) between them.
--Colin
Gunboat Diplomacy|9.3.09 @ 9:23AM|#
Colin,
A huge crush? I couldn't pick her out of a line-up if my life
depended on it. Good luck with that projection thing.
|9.3.09 @ 10:33AM|#
Gunny,
To pick her out of a lineup, look for the one whose head you can't
see because the one-way glass window behind which you're standing
doesn't extend that far up!
[For the creeped out who read my comment--or my wife--it was a
joke! I find MM's blog to be well-reasoned, interesting, and
entertaining. I'm no stalker...and I'm committed to honoring my own
marriage contract. 8-]
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