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(Belatedly Expressed) Fear of a Black President
I thought it odd the other week when Frank Rich attempted to explain a purported "resurgence" of racial-anxiety-based "radicalism" by quoting from a sociological essay from 1962. Well, along comes my former colleague Gregory Rodriguez in the L.A. Times, locating the decoder ring in a Richard Hofstadter essay from 1954:
Hofstadter points to the fundamental rootlessness and heterogeneity of U.S. society, and the "peculiar scramble for status and [the] peculiar search for secure identity" that those qualities inspire. Without, say, a traditional class system -- a "recognizable system of status," in Hofstadter's words -- Americans suffer from "status anxiety." During times of great social flux, these fears play out in politics as people seek out enemies (which helps them reaffirm their own standing) and, at the same time, damn a social order they feel they can't dominate.
It's not a stretch to say that the election of the first black president, as well as the deep economic recession, have challenged Americans' sense of self. That a resulting status anxiety would play itself out on the right more than the left may have to do with the right's general discomfort with the kind of collective identities -- unions, ethnics, gender -- that the left tends to embrace. Instead of finding affiliations to secure their status, the right's "rugged individualists" get mired in the type of anomie that in turn increases the need to reaffirm one's place in a topsy-turvy world.
The personal, deeply vituperative tone of the debate over healthcare reform seems to suggest that Americans' anger is not just about whether a "public option" is part of a reform package. The fear is less about encroaching socialism than it is about getting lost and forgotten in a rapidly changing society. Change isn't slowing down, and the bad news is that these feelings of losing control are not likely to go away any time soon.
Either that, or maybe people are worried about economic policy during a recession?
Rodriguez is no Rich (I mean that in a good way), and I agree that scapegoating the Other is a predictable byproduct of any national trauma, but the questions are how much, and where is the evidence? As I wrote last week, 9/11 was a helluva lot more self-soiling and scapegoat-creating than the vague and apparently perennial sense "getting lost and forgotten in a rapidly changing society," and yet the promised wave of anti-Muslim violence never materialized. If townhall protesters were motivated by race, wouldn't they be focusing on the black attorney general's drastic expansion of civil rights litigation?
We are, thank God, an almost unrecognizably different country than in 1954, particularly on questions of racial tolerance, conformity, and the pace of change. The "collective identities" Rodriguez points to are hardly the exclusive provinces of the political left, as evangelical Christians and Dallas Cowboys fans can attest. If the dislocated-whitey thesis was as convincing as mainstream newspaper pundits are claiming, surely there is more concrete evidence than essays from a half-century ago, and some raised voices at the first real opportunity for citizens to interact with their elected representatives after a 10-month binge of federal intervention.
UPDATE: Read Damon Root's great piece from a year ago on Hofstadter's reputation-making pile of slanders against the classical liberal thinker Herbert Spencer.
|9.2.09 @ 9:23AM|#
The left was desperate for there to be a massive racist backlash against Obama. When it was really nothing more than the usual suspects, they had the media invent it for them. Add "confirmation bias" to the long list of concepts they refuse to grasp.
Xeones|9.2.09 @ 9:25AM|#
Rodriguez, dude, in 1954 my grandmother was several years younger than i am now. Yeah, she's racist. So what?
|9.2.09 @ 9:26AM|#
It's not a stretch to say that the election of the first
black president, as well as the deep economic recession, have
challenged Americans' sense of self. That a resulting status
anxiety would play itself out on the right more than the left may
have to do with the right's general discomfort with the kind of
collective identities -- unions, ethnics, gender -- that the left
tends to embrace. Instead of finding affiliations to secure their
status, the right's "rugged individualists" get mired in the type
of anomie that in turn increases the need to reaffirm one's place
in a topsy-turvy world.
Wrong.
|9.2.09 @ 9:30AM|#
Cant say as I blame him, he does bring up some valid
points!
RT
www.anonymous-web.be.tc
Meta4|9.2.09 @ 9:39AM|#
"The personal, deeply vituperative tone of the debate over
healthcare reform seems to suggest that Americans' anger is not
just about whether a "public option" is part of a reform package.
The fear is less about encroaching socialism than it is about
getting lost and forgotten in a rapidly changing society. Change
isn't slowing down, and the bad news is that these feelings of
losing control are not likely to go away any time soon."
Epic. Fucking. Bullshit. Fail.
|9.2.09 @ 9:48AM|#
It isn't a black thing, it is a Marxist thing. I don't blame the overwhelmingly redistributionist black community for believing free money is a long term good thing. I blame the evil powers that are behind this heinous scheme of permenant dependence. The only point I can agree with from the article is, yes, I'm scared shitless of where were headed.
Art-P.O.G.|9.2.09 @ 9:49AM|#
Add "confirmation bias" to the long list of concepts they refuse to grasp.
Word. But it's nothing that a liberal (ha!) application of psychobabble can't solve!
Citizen Nothing|9.2.09 @ 9:50AM|#
A new bio of Warren Harding, who was the victim of a Dem
whispering campaign about his "negro ancestors," was released
yesterday.
The Harding Affair has details from his love letters to
Carrie Phillips (which were supposed to be sealed until 2014) and
includes info about her pro-German activities in WWI and his
efforts to oppose Wilson's nation-building.
Actually, my respect for Harding went up several notches after
reading the book.
Carry on.
|9.2.09 @ 9:51AM|#
The leftist and leftish elites are really hung up on health care
reform; they figure the need for the reforms they think Obama is
calling for, however vague and half-defined they may be, is so
great and so obvious that no logical person could be skeptical of
them, and so they assume such skeptics are insane or have ulterior
motives.
Or just maybe the reform plans on the table are so incomprehensible
that the only way to defend them is ad hominem attacks.
Citizen Nothing|9.2.09 @ 9:54AM|#
Oh. And John Dean (yeah, that John Dean) is apparently one of the foremost experts on Harding. Weird world, isn't it?
|9.2.09 @ 9:59AM|#
It's not a stretch to say that the election of the first
black president, as well as the deep economic recession, have
challenged Americans' sense of self.
My sense of self is not affected, at all, by any events in the
political sphere. That academics and media types apparently think
it goes without saying that it must be, tells me more about them
than it does about Americans in general.
The personal, deeply vituperative tone of the debate over
healthcare reform seems to suggest that Americans' anger is not
just about whether a "public option" is part of a reform package.
The fear is less about encroaching socialism than it is about
getting lost and forgotten in a rapidly changing
society.
Isn't this just a windy version of the bloody-knuckles Dem talking
point that opposition to healthcare "reform" should be disregarded
because its based on ignorance and hatred?
|9.2.09 @ 10:03AM|#
Liberals claim those who disagree with them do so out of ignorance and racism. Wow, that is a new trend.
Anonymous|9.2.09 @ 10:04AM|#
My sense of self is not affected, at all, by any events in
the political sphere.
All things are political. Democracy means that totalitarianism is
simply the difference between "doing okay" and "a good crisis we
can't waste".
Of course, that's why we are a Republic. And, of course, that's why
the Republic's enemies have worked to destroy republicanism
(senator selection by popular election, state powers eroded by law,
and state powers eroded by deals-with-the-devil with the federal
government in exchange for tax monies).
</a|9.2.09 @ 10:06AM|#
We are, thank God, an almost unrecognizably different
country than in 1954, particularly on questions of racial
tolerance, conformity, and the pace of change.
Oddly enough, that mean, racist, wife-beating America managed to
put a man on the moon 15 years hence. Enlightened, tolerant,
multi-culti America can't even fix it's fucking potholes, let alone
duplicate any such feat at any time soon.
Now I understand why The Enlightened so hate the space program.
Apollo stands as an indictment and reproach to every thing they
stand for.
Meta4|9.2.09 @ 10:13AM|#
"The leftist and leftish elites are really hung up on GLOBAL
WARMING; they figure the need for the reforms they think Obama is
calling for, however vague and half-defined they may be, is so
great and so obvious that no logical person could be skeptical of
them, and so they assume such skeptics are insane or have ulterior
motives.
FTFY
Citizen Nothing|9.2.09 @ 10:15AM|#
#, I've been pondering the time, not too many years hence, when there are no longer humans living who have walked on the moon.
Citizen Nothing|9.2.09 @ 10:20AM|#
Charlie Duke, the youngest of the moon walkers, will be 74 next month.
|9.2.09 @ 10:26AM|#
Rodriguez would be a lot better off using Douglas Hofstadter for inspiration. Hofstadter's Law is one of the great aphorisms of all times. Richard seems like a bit of a schwantz.
leaf|9.2.09 @ 10:27AM|#
I'm not that bright. Someone please define "confirmation bias" in this context
|9.2.09 @ 10:35AM|#
If energy production was subjected to the processes necessary to make the mountain from this particular molehill, we could all be wealthy and supergreenies.
Seward|9.2.09 @ 10:36AM|#
Some stuff here on why Hofstadter was a really crappy historian:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Hofstadter#Criticism
There was a whole class of historians that came out of WWII and did
work through the 1950s and 1960s who were really crappy, yet very
influential. One of their main flaws was that they tended to do
very little archival research. A lot of that has been remedied with
the rise of micro-histories and the like.
Seward|9.2.09 @ 10:41AM|#
As much as I love his works as pieces of philosophy, you have to lump Foucault in with Hofstadter as a crappy historian.
Steve Horwitz|9.2.09 @ 10:44AM|#
"Fear of a Black President?" Is that a a little Porcupine Tree reference there Mr. Welch - as I listen to "Fear of a Blank Planet" at this very moment? Or was it just spooky coincidence?
The Angry Optimist|9.2.09 @ 10:49AM|#
I love his pendulum, too...
Not that there's anything wrong with that, CN. Do you happen to
live in the Short North, by chance? :P
Warty|9.2.09 @ 10:56AM|#
It's an NWA reference, Steve. Or Public Enemy, or one of those early 90s rap groups that only white people listened to.
|9.2.09 @ 10:58AM|#
I don't blame the overwhelmingly redistributionist black
community for believing free money is a long term good
thing.
You dirty soft racist of low expectations! If the people were
white, or non-black, you refer to them as lazy, worthless piece of
shit, no good for nothing white trash, wouldn't you?
Maybe I'm projecting....just a little.
Steve Horwitz|9.2.09 @ 10:58AM|#
There are rap groups that DON'T write for suburban white teenage guys?!
Tony|9.2.09 @ 11:03AM|#
GOPers and their defenders would have us believe that their
dominant demographic consisting of older white southerners has not
a racist among them. Fine, I'm willing to give anyone the benefit
of the doubt on that question. And the attacks on Obama, to the
extent that they are racial, are at most dog-whistles. They're not
so different from the attacks on John Kerry, Al Gore, and Bill
Clinton (that is, filled with scaremongering, and stupid, desperate
lies).
But we can't forget that attacks on the evil liberals has
historically always had a racial competent, which has gotten ever
more subtle as society has shifted. Their strategy can no longer
out-and-out attack nigger lovers, though the welfare queen image is
still somewhat reliable. Hysterical rants about ACORN, Obama's
former pastor, and the dishonest attempt to shift blame for the
recession essentially to uppity black people are all part of the
same pattern.
Xeones|9.2.09 @ 11:07AM|#
Tony, i would never say this in any other context, but you really ought to take Warty's advice.
Tony|9.2.09 @ 11:15AM|#
Are you trying to tell me the GOP hasn't made race a central part of its vote-getting strategy for decades? They haven't exactly made it a secret.
|9.2.09 @ 11:17AM|#
shift blame for the recession essentially to uppity black people
Huh. I really hadn't heard that at all. But then, I don't think I'm
considered a "racial competent".
Citizen Nothing|9.2.09 @ 11:20AM|#
Uppity black people? Isn't it Tony and his ilk who imply that
black folk are just too damn stupid to make their own economic
decisions?
(Not that the GOP doesn't have its share of racists. I hate those
bastards, too.)
creech|9.2.09 @ 11:22AM|#
Strangely, Tony, the biggest cluster of racists I ever ran across was the machinists union members where I once worked. I'm assuming they were mostly Democrats based on the candidate bumper stickers they had festooned on their lockers. But you take your racists one man or woman at a time, not stereotyping them with the groups to which they may belong. Racism, being a form of collectivism, is hardly something one will find with most individualistic libertarians.
dhex|9.2.09 @ 11:24AM|#
""Fear of a Black President?" Is that a a little Porcupine Tree
reference there Mr. Welch - as I listen to "Fear of a Blank Planet"
at this very moment?"
yeeesh, prog rock fans. the only thing whiter than prog rock fans
is white-out, and even white out knows a few public enemy songs.
:)
Tomcat1066|9.2.09 @ 11:27AM|#
The most racist people I know (and I live in Georgia) are also
pretty damn liberal. Funny how that works, ain't it.
You see, damn near any group is bound to have racists in it. But I
don't go screaming that Obama's health care package is racist, or
that opposition to deregulation is racist, or anything of the sort.
Idiotic and racist aren't the same thing after all.
|9.2.09 @ 11:31AM|#
Are you trying to tell me the GOP hasn't made race...
What I'm trying to tell you is that I really don't give much of a
damn what the GOP is, does, or has. Reason is about Free Minds and
Free Markets(tm). Have you even read the Wikipedia entry on
Libertarianism? Do you read? Have you heard of Wikipedia?
I really am a tolerant person (though apparent "racial
incompetent"), and I think it's cute when kids come and sit at the
grown-up table. But you've spilled your water glass twice now, and
keep putting french fries up your nose -- young man, where is your
mother?
This is not the Friends of Team Red site. Move along, move
along.
Xeones|9.2.09 @ 11:32AM|#
Are you trying to tell me the GOP hasn't made race a central
part of its vote-getting strategy for decades?
We're trying to tell you to shut the fuck up, you utter ass.
Isn't it Tony and his ilk who imply that black folk are just
too damn stupid to make their own economic decisions?
To be fair, Tony and his ilk imply that EVERYBODY (who is not them,
anyway) is too damn stupid to make their own economic
decisions.
|9.2.09 @ 11:34AM|#
Let me indulge in my own bit of pop psychology...
If, as the liberal cant assumes, homophobia is actually unexpressed
homosexual urges, then cannot their hatred and belief in the
ubiquity of racists be seen as a sign of their own unexpressed
racism?
rhofulster|9.2.09 @ 11:37AM|#
I just read Root's article linked in the post.
Is Hofstadter Naomi Klein's grandfather?
Tony|9.2.09 @ 11:38AM|#
This is not the Friends of Team Red site.
Unfortunately for you Team Red has adopted your crazy economic
ideas to advance its own interests. And the amount of GOP cock that
gets sucked on this site as a result of this sliver of a simpatico
relationship is enough to confuse anyone.
Tomcat1066|9.2.09 @ 11:43AM|#
Tony, you really are a special, special person. I'm amazed you
can even turn on a computer with your head so far up your own ass
as to miss all the comments blasting idiotic GOP ideas and the GOP
in general.
Honestly, do you have to fart in order to see the screen?
T|9.2.09 @ 11:48AM|#
Is Hofstadter Naomi Klein's grandfather?
Did he try to blame everything on Hayek?
|9.2.09 @ 11:49AM|#
Isn't it Tony and his ilk who imply that black folk are just
too damn stupid to make their own economic decisions?
Uhmm..no that would be people like John who spout off about how
democrats have tricked naive black voters to support them against
their better interests when they really should be aligned with that
free market loving GOP.
It's also funny how whenever Tony has a valid point the only
response is "SHUT UP" or some insult or some lame ass counter
example -- LIBERALS ARE TEH RACIST TOO!!!!!!11111
Yeah so what -- that doesn't negate other peoples racism. (And for
the record being a member of a union doesn't make you a liberal. It
makes you a union member.)
Yeah let's pretend like there are no racists any more. Let's
pretend like yelling "ACORN" or "Community Organizer" or all the
focus on Obama's pastor had no racial components to it.
Cries of "WE WANT OUT COUNTRY BACK" from people who "want the
government out of Medicare" are just people who really hate
socialism -- it's completely unfathomable to think that some (many)
of them are reacting that way because they seem feel that their
position on top of society is being threatened. What with the
numbers showing that minorities are the fastest growing segments of
society and the election of a black president.
The fact that the when GOP was passing the unfunded Medicare Drug
Prescription plan these tea baggers were not even the least
concerned about "socialism" should not even be considered when
discussing the motivations of these "patriots".
Let's pretend like there is no southern strategy. Let's pretend
like the Macaca moments don't exist. Let's pretend like the bile
that is spewed towards "illegals" has nothing to do with race.
Let's pretend like the claims of "welfare queens" aren't at all
racist. It's really just anti-Marxism.
Let's pretend reality is all bullshit.
Rodriguez is no Rich (I mean that in a good way), and I agree
that scapegoating the Other is a predictable byproduct of any
national trauma, but the questions are how much, and where is the
evidence? As I wrote last week, 9/11 was a helluva lot more
self-soiling and scapegoat-creating than the vague and apparently
perennial sense "getting lost and forgotten in a rapidly changing
society," and yet the promised wave of anti-Muslim violence never
materialized.
So violence is the only measuring stick of racism? You mean all the
anti-muslim sentiment post 9/11 and the verbal harassment aren't
examples of a backlash towards muslims post 9/11 ? That would seem
to explain why libertarians are so committed to convincing everyone
else that racism doesn't exist any more -- I mean I guess that
since there are so few lynchings that proves racism is dead?
If townhall protesters were motivated by race, wouldn't they be
focusing on the black attorney general's drastic expansion of civil
rights litigation?
Because a bigger and better target is the guy at the top, not his
choice for AG? Because the Limbaugh's, the Becks, and the
Freedomworks and the Insurance lobby folks who are spreading
misinformation and talking points are targeting Obama and health
care reform - and that's an easier target than going after a DOJ
policy of enforcing civil rights violations (and opposing civil
rights is kind of a big racist tell?)
Really Mr. Welch you aren't this dumb. You must be playing the
fool.
Xeones|9.2.09 @ 11:49AM|#
Unfortunately for you Team Red has adopted your
[citation needed]
crazy
[citation needed]
economic ideas to advance its own interests.
A truly free market would serve your interests, my interests, and
everybody else's interests too, you disingenuous twat.
|9.2.09 @ 11:54AM|#
and the dishonest attempt to shift blame for the recession
essentially to uppity black people are all part of the same
pattern.
Tony, like I told my liberal ex-friends, government programs sold
on the basis of "helping minorities" can have negative side
effects. They can do harm. Disagreeing about one program doing one
specific harm is one thing, but saying they cannot EVER do harm is
pure BS.
"A govt program aimed at helping minorities wound up doing damage"
is an allowable thought.
Xeones|9.2.09 @ 11:54AM|#
It's also funny how whenever Tony has a valid
point
[citation needed]
Tony = LoneWacko - links + Obama's spooge dripping down his
chin
|9.2.09 @ 12:01PM|#
It's also funny how whenever Tony has a valid
point
Valid to whom? Oh that's right, you. The sole arbiter of
validity.
We reached peak racism a long, long time ago. Are there still
racists? Yes. Are they representative of mainstream thought and
opinion? Hardly. Does whining to us about them do a goddamn thing
other then make you and TrollTony feel superior? No fucking
way.
Citizen Nothing|9.2.09 @ 12:04PM|#
Has ChiTom every answered my question about how much of his own
personal wealth he's given to the poor, poor folk he pretends to
cares so much about?
Maybe he has, but I've missed it.
Tomcat1066|9.2.09 @ 12:07PM|#
Who knows. Perhaps he figures it's OK to not give of his own wealth, since he'll give of yours? I mean, do the poor really give a shit where it comes from?
|9.2.09 @ 12:09PM|#
Is it really a surprise that victim politics is used to shut
down all debate? It was bullshit when Bushites did their "but
there's a war on" song and dance to curtail criticism and it's
bullshit now.
Obama could suck the spine out of a nine-year-old orphan on live TV
and then fuck her brainstem and any objection about it would still
be met with OMG TEH RACISM!
T|9.2.09 @ 12:10PM|#
The fact that the when GOP was passing the unfunded Medicare
Drug Prescription plan these tea baggers were not even the least
concerned about "socialism" should not even be considered when
discussing the motivations of these "patriots".
Bullshit. I was there. The GOP base was fucking livid.
Tony|9.2.09 @ 12:13PM|#
Tony, like I told my liberal ex-friends, government programs sold on the basis of "helping minorities" can have negative side effects. They can do harm. Disagreeing about one program doing one specific harm is one thing, but saying they cannot EVER do harm is pure BS.
"A govt program aimed at helping minorities wound up doing damage" is an allowable thought.
I never made that argument. What I said was that the right tried to
blame the recession mostly on people who bought houses they
couldn't afford. The rhetoric was not really all that subtle in its
tone of racism. Now this was the big lie with regard to the
recession. The data suggested that the housing bubble was not
inflated by any significant degree by government housing
programs.
But the GOP does this all the time. Not only is it a way of
shifting blame away from their own laissez-faire policies, it's
another in a long, tedious line of strategies to get their core
constituency to blame all their problems on minorities (be they
black, latino, or gay) so they don't notice who's really at fault
for their stagnant economic situation.
Xeones|9.2.09 @ 12:15PM|#
What I said was that the right tried to blame the recession
mostly on people who bought houses they couldn't afford. The
rhetoric was not really all that subtle in its tone of
racism.
Ok, so Tony believes that only black people make bad economic
decisions. What a fucking racist.
|9.2.09 @ 12:15PM|#
creech mentioned his union co-workers being liberal and based
his assumption on the bumper stickers on their lockers.
The stuff about the Rev Wright and Acorn community organizing were
IMO fair questions about difficult topics. It was curious to me
that more wasn't made of McCain's use of the word "gooks" in his
interview years ago.
Remember, I like Obama and voted for him and his policy promises,
not as a slam to the GOP.
|9.2.09 @ 12:16PM|#
Bullshit. I was there. The GOP base was fucking
livid.
Agreed, T... but the more important thing for them to realize the
the one thing they completely refuse to grasp:
WE ARE NOT REPUBLICANS
WE ARE NOT REPUBLICANS
WE ARE NOT REPUBLICANS
WE ARE NOT REPUBLICANS
WE ARE NOT REPUBLICANS
WE ARE NOT REPUBLICANS
WE ARE NOT REPUBLICANS
WE ARE NOT REPUBLICANS
WE ARE NOT REPUBLICANS
IF YOU WANT TO ARGUE WITH REPUBLICANS GO FUCKING FIND
SOME
Not that it will do them a bit of good.
Citizen Nothing|9.2.09 @ 12:16PM|#
...a way of shifting blame away from (GOP) laissez-faire
policies...
See, this is all you really need to know about Tony.
Ignore.
Tomcat1066|9.2.09 @ 12:23PM|#
"I never made that argument. What I said was that the right
tried to blame the recession mostly on people who bought houses
they couldn't afford. The rhetoric was not really all that subtle
in its tone of racism. Now this was the big lie with regard to the
recession. The data suggested that the housing bubble was not
inflated by any significant degree by government housing
programs."
So the only idiots who bought houses they couldn't afford did so
with government programs?
Trust me, there were a lot of idiots buying houses they couldn't
afford. They just didn't all do it with government programs.
And how the fuck do you get racism from people saying folks bought
houses they couldn't afford? There are a shit load of white folks
who lost their homes because they couldn't afford them too.
Joe M|9.2.09 @ 12:25PM|#
And how the fuck do you get racism from people saying folks
bought houses they couldn't afford?
Apparently, in Tony's world, only black people are poor. Now if
you'll excuse me, I'm off to drink liquid gold from the fountain
inside my palace.
T|9.2.09 @ 12:25PM|#
Agreed, T... but the more important thing for them to
realize the the one thing they completely refuse to grasp:
WE ARE NOT REPUBLICANS
True, but I still don't think ChiTom should get a pass on
transparently false claims. He'll seize any tiny, perceived
inconsistency and throw it against us, but then turn around and lie
through his teeth.
|9.2.09 @ 12:27PM|#
Tomcat1066, well duh. That's because white lenders were loathe
to lend money to teh blacks. The blacks that were able to get loans
from those predatory sharks actually loaning to colored folk still
managed to singlehandedly destroy the economy of the whole frickin
world.
*end snark*
Citizen Nothing|9.2.09 @ 12:37PM|#
Another Harding (the first black president) threadjack.
The author believes that the newly uncovered love letters show that
it was pressure from his, ironically, pro-German mistress that kept
Harding out of the 1916 presidential race, a race he easily could
have won. And had he unseated Wilson, it's likely the America-First
Harding would have kept us out of World War I.
A very interesting "what if."
|9.2.09 @ 12:37PM|#
And anyway... if go back to the CRA threads that happened here, not in Tony's head, the real argument wasn't "CRA loans wrecked the economy" it was joe v. sanity when he claimed that bad CRA loans "played no part whatsoever in the housing market bubble." And then claimed anyone who didn't believe that bullshit was a racist.
Jordan|9.2.09 @ 12:37PM|#
...a way of shifting blame away from (GOP) laissez-faire policies...
What. The. Fuck.
Please cite these laissez-faire policies.
|9.2.09 @ 12:41PM|#
The data suggested that the housing bubble was not inflated by any significant degree by government housing programs.
By "the data", you mean batting statistics from American League
farm system? Because the effect of Fannie Mae, Freddie Mac, the FHA
(I may be missing a letter there) were pretty, ya know,
significant.
But the GOP does this all the time
Tony brings up an interesting point here. Few people realize that
Sibelius lived until 1957 -- amazing when you consider how his
sound is embedded in the romanticism and nationalism of the 19th
century.
Part of the reason this gets overlooked is that he stopped writing
in the late '20s, just as serialism was swinging art music in a
very different direction.
Here's what I find intriguing: this was right at the point that
Sibelius finally started receiving royalties and became financially
secure. So, did he just stop writing because he was old and tired
(in his early 60s), or did his earlier financial difficulties keep
him focused on cranking out the music?
Oh, this has nothing to do with this site or this topic? Well, if
Tony gets to...
!|9.2.09 @ 12:41PM|#
It's not a stretch to say that the election of the first
black president, as well as the deep economic recession, have
challenged Americans' sense of self.
We had a deep economic recession under Clinton?
!|9.2.09 @ 12:45PM|#
SF,
And then claimed anyone who didn't believe that bullshit was a
racist.
How long ago was that? I think I missed the joe-ieozoic era of
H&R.
Warty|9.2.09 @ 12:49PM|#
If Tony ever had a valid point, I'm pretty sure it would cause his brain to collapse into a singularity.
|9.2.09 @ 1:01PM|#
The data suggested that the housing bubble was not inflated
by any significant degree by government housing
programs.
http://www.city-journal.org/2008/eon1030hh.html
...As economist Russell Roberts of George Mason University points
out, Bank of America reported that nonperforming CRA-eligible loans
were a significant drag on its third-quarter 2008 income. Its
earnings report states: "We continue to see deterioration in our
community reinvestment act portfolio which totals some 7 percent of
the residential book. . . . The annualized loss rate from the CRA
book was 1.26 percent and represented 29 percent of the residential
mortgage net losses." This is a far cry from the advocates'
standard line that CRA loans, while less lucrative than standard
mortgages, are still profitable....
|9.2.09 @ 1:07PM|#
Damn Suge, joe reminds me of my lovely wife. Dressed head to toe in Smug without regard to the occasion or the season.
Art-P.O.G.|9.2.09 @ 1:35PM|#
You know why I think you guys had a problem with joe? Because
you're all racist and he called you on it. ;)
Hey, it's just one guy, but we should ask Dick Hoste his party
affiliation.
|9.2.09 @ 1:38PM|#
John McCain's use of the word "gook" refers to communist North Vietnamese - the people that tortured him in a cage. That's why he "got away with it". Gook was the term at the time. Just because your average union worker redneck still uses terms like gook or chink to refer to any Asian person (that threatens to taek their jerb), doesn't mean John McCain was doing the same.
|9.2.09 @ 1:38PM|#
joe | September 29, 2008, 7:06pm | #
TAO,
If CRA loans were less risky and less likely to be turned into MBSs than the loans they replaced, then the CRA cannot be said to have played any role in this problem. If not for the CRA, there would have been MORE defaults and MORE mortgages bundled into MSBs. The CRA did not contribute even a little, tiny bit to the meltdown. If anything, it ameliorated the problem. If I sell a tire that blows out at a rate of only 1 incident for 100,000 miles driven, rather than 3, I haven't contributed to car accidents caused by tires blowing out. I've reduced that problem.
The Angry Optimist|9.2.09 @ 2:02PM|#
joe always ignored the fact that without the CRA, you would have
NO blowouts at all. That is, the default rate on CRA loans is zero
if you don't make any.
No one ever said the CRA caused the issue, just that it triggered
the cascading effect that happens when your next door neighbor'
house forecloses.
Sean W. Malone|9.2.09 @ 2:18PM|#
Which of the GOP's "laissez-faire" policies would those be
Tony?
The ones where Bush was the biggest spender, regulator and expander
of government in 40 years? Or did you mean some other ones?
Sean W. Malone|9.2.09 @ 2:22PM|#
Also - I like to make the argument that the CRA and other such programs actually neither caused nor triggered the bubble, but rather Alan Greenspan's idiotic interest rates and expansionist monetary policy actually created the bubble (as it always does), and the CRA and other government attempts at raising home ownership artificially guided that bubble into the housing sector.
The Angry Optimist|9.2.09 @ 2:28PM|#
Tragically enough, i just noticed that I was arguing with joe about the CRA on my birthday. Wow, that sucks.
Tony|9.2.09 @ 2:49PM|#
Oh the GOP matches its rhetoric with regard to some laissez-faire policies, but only with regard to social welfare programs. These are more widely and hotly despised by the right because, you know, it's "those people" getting help, rather than good wealthy Americans and their corporations who really deserve it.
Tomcat1066|9.2.09 @ 2:56PM|#
What the fuck are you babbling about now Tony? Seriously, are
you the only person on this planet who thinks you know what the
fuck you're talking about?
The GOP doesn't regard laissez-faire policies as a factor, because
they don't want the negative side of laissez-faire economics.
Example number one? TARP. Bailing out companies, of any type for
any reason, isn't laissez-faire.
Letting the market take care of it and getting the fuck out of the
way? Now THAT is laissez-faire.
Sean W. Malone|9.2.09 @ 2:59PM|#
Tony;
How about you learn the difference between rhetoric, and reality.
Mkay?
T|9.2.09 @ 3:15PM|#
How about you learn the difference between rhetoric, and
reality. Mkay?
Not gonna happen. He bases his support for the donks on reading the
DNC platform, not watching what they actually do.
Of course, by this metric, we should be able to convince him of
anything since apparently the written word supersedes reality.
Tony|9.2.09 @ 3:20PM|#
Sean,
It is reality that GOP governments have steadily been gutting
social welfare programs. Is that what's controversial about my
statement? I said in plain English that they do not match their
rhetoric with regard to corporate welfare.
oh no not this again|9.2.09 @ 3:31PM|#
Am I in the right place? This article is clearly arguing along the left right adage, adopting right talking points, but swear they aren't republicans. Weird!
Tim Cavanaugh|9.2.09 @ 3:39PM|#
It's not a stretch to say that the election of the first
black president, as well as the deep economic recession, have
challenged Americans' sense of self.
Whose sense of self are we talking about? African Americans who are
inclined to connect their own self-esteem with progress for their
U.S. Census Bureau category (not a good life strategy, but anyway)
would, I think, find the election of the first black president
cause for satisfaction, even or especially if the president has
turned out to be somewhat less god-like than promised. And while
everybody else doesn't have to jump on any feel-good-about-America
bandwagons, it's at least a small piece of evidence that this is
not the racist, unfair, hateful Amerikkka we have so often been
told it is. How is my "sense of self" or any other person's being
challenged by having a black president?
oh no not this again|9.2.09 @ 3:46PM|#
Sean, speaking of rhetoric and reality, I'm still waiting to hear about this leftist plot that has been stifling productivity for decades. Can you believe the amount of reports saying it has risen? I'm real worried, maybe you should pick up the red phone, I smell a leftist plot.
T|9.2.09 @ 3:51PM|#
It is reality that GOP governments have steadily been
gutting social welfare programs.
Name a federal social welfare program where the budget has
decreased year on year.
Tony|9.2.09 @ 3:58PM|#
Reagan cut some social programs. Clinton, under the influence of
Reagan's evil-government rhetoric, significantly cut back the
welfare program. Bush cut education programs. Nobody dared touch
medicare or social security.
Problem is social spending isn't the real source of our debt
problem (and liberals would argue that they are part of the
solution), it's our massive war spending, which Republicans
wouldn't dream of cutting back.
Sean W. Malone|9.2.09 @ 4:19PM|#
"It is reality that GOP governments have steadily been
gutting social welfare programs."
Yes indeed Tony, creating a brand new prescription drug
entitlement, and ballooning the department of education's budget
seems like "gutting" to me!
Sean W. Malone|9.2.09 @ 4:21PM|#
Oh noez; the fact that you are incapable of learning Econ 101
and doing basic math, much less looking at even something with
pretty pictures that shows A. inflation, and B. the number &
types of jobs that have disappeared from the United States in the
last 50 years is not my fault.
No... you're right though, the stifled production is just something
I made up.
T|9.2.09 @ 4:27PM|#
So, you can't name a specific program where the budget decreased year on year, can you?
Tony|9.2.09 @ 4:46PM|#
School lunches under Reagan. There, happy? You won't get an argument out of me by saying that Republicans are big-spending hypocrites. The point I was trying to get at since this is a thread on race is that Republicans have only been able to make cutting government palatable when they could convince enough people that the programs were all about giving handouts to black people.
Xeones|9.2.09 @ 4:59PM|#
Tony, Reagan stopped being president 21 years ago. Is that really your most recent example? Christ, you suck.
T|9.2.09 @ 5:00PM|#
Carter also seeks legislation which would
reduce school lunch subsidies by 400 million.
Umm, which President was that under again?
Sean W. Malone|9.2.09 @ 5:18PM|#
"Republicans have only been able to make cutting government
palatable when they could convince enough people that the programs
were all about giving handouts to black people."
Huh? Now... I've been paying attention to this shit for most of my
life, and in general that means Bush 1/Clinton onward, but I've
never seen that happen, possibly with the exception of
anti-affirmative action stuff, but then that kind of has a racial
component built in, now doesn't it?
Also what Xeones said.
Sean W. Malone|9.2.09 @ 5:43PM|#
Equality =/= Affirmative action... I hope you realize that Tony, affirmative action is the opposite of equality. It's tilting the scales, in a more PC direction perhaps, but tilted none-the-less.
hmm|9.2.09 @ 6:00PM|#
The data suggested that the housing bubble was not inflated
by any significant degree by government housing
programs.
Which data? What was the basis for calculating the inflation of the
bubble. The idea of MBS, keeping rates low, and forcing banks
across red lines are all clearly documented. The whole goal was to
promote home ownership and all the political trappings that come
with it. The unintended consequence was the bubble, people bought
vacation homes, more expensive homes, second homes and so on. To
accommodate this unintended consequence the private sector started
to create their own MBS. From there it's a matter of false
security, shitty modeling of risk, greed/leverage, and stupidity
that lead to the bursting bubble.
You can't just look at numbers of MBS from the government, or laws
passed, or loans across red lines. You have to look at the
relationships between the data and the progression. It all started
with politics, government, and the Fed and was fanned by greed and
stupidity.
wayne|9.2.09 @ 7:07PM|#
Their strategy can no longer out-and-out attack nigger
lovers, though the welfare queen image is still somewhat
reliable.
I swear, this must be a law of nature or something, the ONLY times
I EVER hear the N-word uttered it is done so by a liberal.
wayne|9.2.09 @ 7:14PM|#
Obama could suck the spine out of a nine-year-old orphan
on live TV and then fuck her brainstem and any objection about it
would still be met with OMG TEH RACISM!
Kudos, SF, that is the best line I have seen in a long time.
|9.3.09 @ 12:00AM|#
Oh the GOP matches its rhetoric with regard to some laissez-faire policies,...
Unlike the democrats who use rhetoric th feign interest in ordinary
people.
These are more widely and hotly despised by the right because, you know, it's "those people" getting help, rather than good wealthy Americans and their corporations who really deserve it.
Wow, just like Tony, who pretends that all that corporate welfare
that Democrat politicians create and perpetuate (to "create jobs",
of course) that transfer billions from the treasury to their
preferred corporate donors is any different.
Jesus Christ, Tony, some chicks I know complain that their jaws get
sore from too much fellatio. You never seem to tire.
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