Hey Poland, We Were Only Trying to Help

Michael C. Moynihan | August 31, 2009

Tomorrow marks the 70th anniversary of  the start of World War II, when the German military launched its withering assault on Poland (the Soviets invaded from the east a few weeks later). In Moscow and Warsaw, editorial pages are percolating with defenses and condemnations of Stalin's behavior in the run up to the invasion. As the "anti-imperialist" Russophiles have surely noticed, and as The Guardian observes today, "Russia's claim of having 'privileged interests' in its post-Soviet neighbours" greatly influences its revisionist take of the Soviet Union's alliance with Nazi Germany. It is therefore important that those misunderstood, Sovietophilic, if-only-we-hadn't-allowed-previously-occupied-countries-to-join-NATO types in the Kremlin recast the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact as a valient attempt to save Poland.

The Guardian has more:

Russia's president, Dmitry Medvedev, made his own explosive contribution to the debate, saying it was a "flat-out lie" to suggest that Stalin bore any responsibility for starting the second world war, which he described as "the 20th century's greatest catastrophe". According to Medvedev, it was Stalin who in fact "ultimately saved Europe".

And recall that Putin previously identified the collapse of the Soviet Union as the "biggest geopolitical catastrophe of the century." The director of Poland's Institute of National Remembrance launched a blistering attack on Russian revisionism here. And The Guardian highlights the new FBS (née KGB) commission to teach the Soviet version of Soviet history:

In May, Medvedev announced that he was setting up a new body to counter what he called the "falsification of history". The commission, dominated by members of Russia's FSB intelligence service rather than professional historians, would ensure that history teaching stressed Russia's heroic sacrifice during the war, Medvedev said, and it would combat foreign "revisionists", he said.

For the real story of Nazi-Soviet collusion in the war against Poland, check out the 2008 documentary The Soviet Story which, as The Economist explains, reveals that "Soviet radio transmitters guided German bombers in their attacks on Poland. A Soviet naval base near Murmansk helped the Nazi attack on Norway. The Soviet secret police helped train the Gestapo and discussed how to deal with the "Jewish question" in occupied Poland."

Comments

JB|8.31.09 @ 6:12PM|#

Dmitry Medvedev is a cocksucking little bitch.

I bet he would suck off Stalin's corpse if he could. Stalin was a sick fuck, and Medvedev is a sick fuck.

|8.31.09 @ 6:18PM|#

So, the Russians had to burn Poland in order to save it? Is that about right?

According to Medvedev, it was Stalin who in fact "ultimately saved Europe".

OK, you can make a pretty good argument that without Stalin, the Soviets would have lost to the Nazis, and that without an Eastern Front, the Allies wouldn't have been able to beat the Nazis.

But that is all utterly irrelevant to what happened to Poland in 1939.

|8.31.09 @ 6:23PM|#

valient?

|8.31.09 @ 6:26PM|#

so was it also the russians who faked the casus belli from the get go?

|8.31.09 @ 6:31PM|#

OK, you can make a pretty good argument that without Stalin, the Soviets would have lost to the Nazis, and that without an Eastern Front, the Allies wouldn't have been able to beat the Nazis.

Actually, it was Hitler who initiated the fighting on the Eastern Front, not Stalin. So you could say that Hitler saved Europe.

Is this an anti-Godwin?

|8.31.09 @ 6:35PM|#

It's not quite as severe as the Chinese aversion to talking about the three T's, but the Russians I've known are extremely reluctant to talk about anything relating to the Soviet period. I assumed it was just due to national embarrassment (just like Japanese don't like talking about Pearl Harbor, Germans about the Holocaust, or us Americans about our treatment of Native Americans), but this leads me to believe it's more akin to the Chinese brainwashing technique than simply to shame.

BakedPenguin|8.31.09 @ 6:35PM|#

Sure, and the Russians kindly shot and buried about two thousand Polish officers at Katyn because they were all actually Nazi spies.

|8.31.09 @ 6:47PM|#

Hell, most Egyptians believe they won in '73 - the official war museum goes into great detail about the crossing of the canal, but the story cuts off abruptly with the repulse of the first Israeli counter-attack.

|8.31.09 @ 7:31PM|#

OK, you can make a pretty good argument that without Stalin, the Soviets would have lost to the Nazis, and that without an Eastern Front, the Allies wouldn't have been able to beat the Nazis.

There is a pretty definitive response to this though, and as the japs found out, it makes a mighty loud ka-boom.

Nuclear F*cking Weapons.

BeesInTheBrain|8.31.09 @ 7:33PM|#

In May, Medvedev announced that he was setting up a new body to counter what he called the "falsification of history". The commission, dominated by members of Russia's FSB intelligence service rather than professional historians, would ensure that history teaching stressed Russia's heroic sacrifice during the war, Medvedev said, and it would combat foreign "revisionists", he said.

Hmmmmm, now this makes me wonder who is responsible for responding to the "Obamacare" hotline.

|8.31.09 @ 7:34PM|#

Sure, and the Russians kindly shot and buried about two thousand Polish officers at Katyn because they were all actually Nazi spies.

To nitpick, Wikipedia claims that the Ruskies killed about 10x that amount in total.

|8.31.09 @ 7:35PM|#

Also, we need more movies with Russians as the bad guys.

robc|8.31.09 @ 7:41PM|#

If you arent already, consider reading the Orwell diaries at http://orwelldiaries.wordpress.com/

George Orwell diary entries are being posted daily on a 70 year delay, so tomorrow will be the 9/1/39 post. Im expecting Wed may be interesting.

|8.31.09 @ 7:56PM|#

The Russians were only trying to liberate Poland from the Poles.

|8.31.09 @ 7:57PM|#

I just finished reading The Zookeeper's Wife, which is about part of the anti-Nazi resistance in Warsaw throughout the war. Apparently, as the Russian troops neared Warsaw the Poles staged an uprising, which the Nazis bitterly suppressed. The Russians stayed carefully out of the city and watched while the Germans bombed the shit out of what was left of Warsaw. Since the Russians knew they'd be taking over, it was useful to them to have the resistance eliminated.

|8.31.09 @ 7:57PM|#

Soviet radio transmitters guided German bombers in their attacks on Poland. A Soviet naval base near Murmansk helped the Nazi attack on Norway

I didn't know the Russkies helped the Nazis in this way. 70 years later and we are still learning things about WWII.

@|8.31.09 @ 8:05PM|#

It's common knowledge that Stalin and Hitler has a secret agreement to divvy up Poland into "spheres of influence" following the invasion. Russia has only recently acknowledged the arrest, deportation and execution of thousands of Polish officers, a crime they had blamed on the Nazis but admitted privately to Allied diplomats.

|8.31.09 @ 8:33PM|#

To nitpick, Wikipedia claims that the Ruskies killed about 10x that amount in total.

Wikipedia has a well-documented Polish bias.

Ведро рвоты|8.31.09 @ 8:35PM|#

In Russia, history revises you!

Douglas Willinger|8.31.09 @ 8:46PM|#

There is much about WW2 that only few comprehend:

http://continuingcounterreformation.blogspot.com/2009/07/wlodimir-ledochowski-kulturkampf_17.html

|8.31.09 @ 8:52PM|#

puke bucket?

Michael Ejercito|8.31.09 @ 9:12PM|#

OK, you can make a pretty good argument that without Stalin, the Soviets would have lost to the Nazis, and that without an Eastern Front, the Allies wouldn't have been able to beat the Nazis.

The Soviets won despite Stalin, and not because of Stalin.

Ведро рвоты|8.31.09 @ 9:23PM|#

выкуп147?

|8.31.09 @ 9:31PM|#

Ведро рвоты:


i got babel fish skills!

Hugh Akston|8.31.09 @ 10:18PM|#

The Russians were only trying to liberate Poland from the Poles.

I think the worst part about it was when the Russians convinced the Poles to take part in the invasion.

|8.31.09 @ 10:28PM|#

Hugh Akston | August 31, 2009, 10:18pm | #



actually, in an odd twist, the poles convinced the russians to invade first.

Rolex Watches|8.31.09 @ 10:38PM|#

Our website have many goods,Rolex -
Replica Rolex -
Replica Watches -

Robert|8.31.09 @ 10:57PM|#

The Soviet secret police helped train the Gestapo and discussed how to deal with the "Jewish question" in occupied Poland."

There seems to be a lot of confusion about what the Jewish Question was. We may 1st eliminate from consideration the 4 questions asked at Passover, which have nothing to do with it.

The Jewish Question is a serious one that still exists, and applies not only to Jews but to analogous groups. AFAIK it was coined by a German philosopher ~2 centuries ago, and refers to the question of what to do when a dispersed minority wants to partake of the general society, yet at the same time keep a special society to itself. I saw a discussion of an example of this in the 1990s, a proposal to form Usenet group misc.kids.jewish , around the same time other subgroups were also being contemplated for formation (and some eventually did) as branches of the hugely trafficked misc.kids . Some asked why someone would want a specifically Jewish misc.kids when their concerns about children were everyone's, and besides everyone was welcome in misc.kids, and some would be offended by a misc.kids.jewish and the implication that misc.kids generally was not concerned about Jews' problems, joys, etc., that they were anything but totally welcoming of Jews, are you saying we're antisemitic?

This is not as easy a question as you might think at first. It has nothing to do with those who would make extermination camps, but it has to do with Jews (and various other exclusive societal groups) who want to have their special cake and eat from the common one as well. One problem is for the exclusivity to work in the opposite direction as well, and the ill feelings all around. The Cub Scouts had their own get-togethers, and I was miffed that my friend the Cub Scout got to have his own circle from which I was excluded, when he could come to all my parties. Sure, I could've joined the Cub Scouts, but who the heck wanted to go to that trouble?

Nipplemancer|8.31.09 @ 10:59PM|#

odd that this thread led to fake rolex spam

BakedPenguin|9.1.09 @ 12:01AM|#

To nitpick, Wikipedia claims that the Ruskies killed about 10x that amount in total [in Katyn].

Дермо! Эта не правда!

Um... I mean ...of course, how silly of me to make mistake like that.

|9.1.09 @ 12:22AM|#

refers to the question of what to do when a dispersed minority wants to partake of the general society, yet at the same time keep a special society to itself.

Groups don't do things. Individuals do. Those who have a problem with members of dispersed minorities don't have to associate with them.

Your question becomes a lot easier when you consider people as individuals rather than instances of groups.

|9.1.09 @ 1:13AM|#

I think the worst part about it was when the Russians convinced the Poles to take part in the invasion.

Who? When? What?
How are the burgers going, Hugh?

Robert|9.1.09 @ 1:34AM|#

Groups don't do things. Individuals do. Those who have a problem with members of dispersed minorities don't have to associate with them.

People don't have to do a lot of things. Knowing that doesn't make them any less unhappy. It makes them less unhappy than having to do things would make them, but knowing that's the case doesn't make them happier, because that bit is taken for granted. Everybody already knows they don't have to be invited to the party, but that doesn't make them feel happier about not being invited, nor about someone else's not accepting the invitation to their party.

Your question becomes a lot easier when you consider people as individuals rather than instances of groups.

No, it doesn't. Viewing Jonathan Liebowitz (my Scout friend) as an individual rather than as a member of the Cub Scouts is what bothered me.

The vast majority of problems people are bothered about don't involve violence or the threat of violence, so don't pretend that keeping people safe from violence is going to solve their problems.

aspushkin|9.1.09 @ 3:24AM|#

Putin didn't say that the fall of the Soviet Union was ""biggest geopolitical catastrophe of the century." He said that "крушение Советского Союза было крупнейшей геополитической катастрофой века" The word in question doesn't mean "the biggest." "A very great catastrophe" would be a better translation.

|9.1.09 @ 4:00AM|#

robert:


so the jews have brought all their troubles upon themselves?

robc|9.1.09 @ 8:38AM|#

Robert,

Apparently the "jewish question" is a matter of your jealousy.

Answer to question: Stop being fucking jealous.

The Jews have the answer - its the 10th commandment.

Orwell Diary|9.1.09 @ 8:48AM|#

Invasion of Poland began this morning. Warsaw bombed. General mobilization proclaimed in England, ditto in France plus martial law. [Radio]

Foreign & General
1. Hitler's terms to Poland boil down to return of Danzig & plebiscite in the corridor, to be held 1 year hence & based on 1918 census. There is some hanky panky about time the terms were presented, & as they were to be answered by night of 30.8.39,[1] H.[2] claims that they are already refused. Daily Telegraph [a]
2. Naval reservists and rest of army and R.A.F. reservists called up. Evacuation of children etc. begins today, involving 3m. people & expected to take 3 days. [Radio; undated]
3. Russo-German pact ratified. Russian armed forces to be further increased. Voroshilov's speech taken as meaning that Russo-German alliance is not contemplated. Daily Express [b]
4. Berlin report states Russian military mission is expected to arrive there shortly. Daily Telegraph [a]

|9.1.09 @ 9:30AM|#

Robert,

The Jews were utterly integrated into German society. German Jews were the most secular in the world. A lot of good it did them. Further, just exactly what did the Jews do by having thier own community that you find so offensive? What are you angry you can't marry a hot Jewish chick?

|9.1.09 @ 10:00AM|#

Robert,

Furthermore, the fact that two hundred years ago the phrase 'the Jewish question' was a mere anthropological/sociological bagatelle doesn't change the fact that in 2009 it clearly means 'the issue of how to eliminate the Jews as a people'. Citing its etymology doesn't change the fact that it now means murdering Jews en masse. Linguists call this 'the etymological fallacy'. 'Villain' doesn't mean 'someone who lives in a nice house' either.

Robert|9.1.09 @ 11:31AM|#

Answer to question: Stop being fucking jealous.

Sure, buddy, and next you can solve the obesity problem by people's not having such big appetites, etc. The question is, "How?"

the fact that two hundred years ago the phrase 'the Jewish question' was a mere anthropological/sociological bagatelle doesn't change the fact that in 2009 it clearly means 'the issue of how to eliminate the Jews as a people'. Citing its etymology doesn't change the fact that it now means murdering Jews en masse. Linguists call this 'the etymological fallacy'.

It's not the etymologic fallacy, but its reverse: equivocation. And it's not my fallacy, but one committed and propagated many years ago. They're the ones who smeared over the Judenfrage with a new and pernicious meaning, of which you've already seen the results, which were sold by the innocuousness of the previous meaning.

|9.1.09 @ 12:54PM|#

Orwell says...

Voroshilov reported as stating that U.S.S.R. would supply Poland with arms

Yeah, I guess so, for several decades.

Gabriel Jonson|10.23.09 @ 10:25AM|#

Yes :)