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Waxman-Markey: What Doesn't Kill You Will Only Make You Poorer
Americans for Tax Reform foresee death and fiscal devastation via Waxman-Markey. Some of their numbers:
• Even with a 15% decrease in gas consumption – prices will still go up! A family of four will still pay $596 more in 2035 and $7,500 more in total from 2012 to 2035.
• There are currently 14 states that produce less than 1% of their energy from governmental defined renewable sources. The Renewable Portfolio Standard (RPS) mandates that this number be 10% nationally by 2012, an unachievable number.
• Under RPS the majority of American families will see at least a $150 increase (or roughly 10%) in their annual energy bill. Families residing in southeastern states will see the largest increases.
• The Corporate Average Fuel economy (CAFE) forces automakers to produce smaller and lighter cars. The National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA), estimated that these lighter cars will increase American traffic fatalities by almost 40,000.
• Waxman-Markey will drive up the national debt 26 percent by 2035. This represents an additional $29,150 per person, or $116,600 for a family of four.
Such cost estimates about future legislation are always provisional and never to be believed completely, but see Ron Bailey at Reason Online on how cap-and-trade proponents at least need to stop pretending it will be costless.
|7.16.09 @ 7:18PM|#
If anything approaching this piece of shit passes the senate I'll be terribly surprised.
Paul|7.16.09 @ 7:47PM|#
His energy bill is $0.00
I've personally corresponded with this guy. He's an interesting
guy, but his energy bill is not $0.00. His monthly bill is $0.00,
but the system cost was $500,000. One could say the "hookup fee"
was a cool half a mil. If we calculate say, a 30 year projection,
his energy bill is $1,388 per month.
Tricky Prickears|7.16.09 @ 7:51PM|#
No dude, it's true. It made the local news,I remember seeing it.
But don't forget, he put up 1/4 mil plus 1/4 mil from state grants.
How does that divide up over a lifetime? But add in the hydrogen
car, no gasoline bills.
Video
Paul|7.16.09 @ 7:52PM|#
I call bullshit.
J sub. I got into it with Neu Mejican on this very guy about two
years ago. I got so interested in the whole concept, I actually
contacted him. He uses some geothermal which explained a lot. He
didn't directly answer all of my specific questions (I'm not saying
he was evasive) but he did send me spec sheets on how he built his
system.
The bottom line is, this guy is actually a good example for
libertarians to point to as to why it's so hard to get off the
grid. It's going to take a massive expenditure of capital per
household to do it, and/or massive subsidies.
Paul|7.16.09 @ 8:02PM|#
Inside the Solar-Hydrogen House: No More Power Bills--Ever
Although the device cost $500,000 to construct, and it is unlikely it will ever pay off financially (even with today's skyrocketing oil and gas prices), the civil engineer says it is priceless in terms of what it does buy: freedom from ever paying another heating or electric bill, not to mention keeping a lid on pollution, because water is its only by-product.
Story here.
What's interesting is the way the news covers this topic. An
alternate headline could just as easily (and just as truthfully)
read: For 1/2 a Mil, You Too Could Have no Electric
Bill
I also like the disconnect. Yippee! No monthly bill! Well, yeah,
there is a monthly bill. You're just paying it to someone else.
Probably a loan company... I'm feeling 2nd, maybe third
mortgage.
Amazing how many people will drop $30,000 on a new car because it
gets ten more miles per gallon than their other fully paid
vehicle.
Tricky Prickears|7.16.09 @ 8:03PM|#
a 30 year projection, his energy bill is $1,388 per
month.
VCRs were $800 when they first came out. Plasmas were
$20,000. You have to start somewhere. The article stated some Big
Wigs were looking to power their private islands. Refinements to
the system, and eventual mass production would bring costs down.
It's certainly not currently a viable solution, but down the road,
who knows.
Tricky Prickears |7.16.09 @ 8:05PM|#
What's interesting is the way the news covers this topic. An
alternate headline could just as easily (and just as truthfully)
read: For 1/2 a Mil, You Too Could Have no Electric Bill
Where's the sensationalism in that?
|7.16.09 @ 8:07PM|#
When Obama "gives" us all the green technology and the money to install it, we won't have a monthly bill either!
|7.16.09 @ 8:09PM|#
"Refinements to the system, and eventual mass production would
bring costs down. It's certainly not currently a viable solution,
but down the road, who knows."
I said this on a different thread yesterday. If we had followed
Carter's advice for the last 30 years, we would be there now.
|7.16.09 @ 8:11PM|#
Maybe I can get a grant for the whole 1/2 mil, I'd like to be off the grid, too. Oh, who got stuck for the 1/4 mil mentioned. ?
Paul|7.16.09 @ 8:12PM|#
VCRs were $800 when they first came out. Plasmas were
$20,000. You have to start somewhere.
All agreed. 100%. However, the devil is in the details. The time
between the first VCR hitting the market at $1,000 and the price
dropping to $100 was very short. Same with DVD players. Big
screens, BluRay etc.
We've been working on this alternative energy thing for quite some
time now-- by some calculations, more than thirty years. The
developments in photovoltaic have been slooooowwww.
Don't get me wrong, getting off the grid is a very libertarian
thing. If I could get off the grid for a few thou, I'd be off
yesterday. But it must make economic sense to me. His
house is an experiment. A show piece to say 'This is what
can be done'. He is not a representative example of what
should be done.
Also note, he works for a company that installs solar panels. So
it's largely an engineering experiment... an R&D lab for his
company. And bravo to that. But I think it's going to be a long
time before we see anything transformative hit the market. And we
may never see anything transformative. It may just be a long series
of incremental changes that could take two centuries.
Where's the sensationalism in that?
For a second, I was going to answer this question. Then my sarcasm
detector came on. It's solar powered, so I have to sit under an
electric lamp for ten minutes before it'll work. But It's off the
grid, man.
Paul|7.16.09 @ 8:12PM|#
Oh, who got stuck for the 1/4 mil mentioned. ?
The residents of New Jersey. But New Jersey is now broke, so I
think there's some stimulus money coming. So ultimately, you and I
did, too.
Tricky Prickears |7.16.09 @ 8:15PM|#
I said this on a different thread yesterday. If we had
followed Carter's advice for the last 30 years, we would be there
now.
Carter started The
NREL
|7.16.09 @ 8:17PM|#
Henry Waxman is one of the ugliest people I've ever seen. I
suppose it's fitting that his name is on an equally ugly piece of
legislation.
Waxman should be fired as a Congressman and should be re-hired as a
troll used to scare children and people with a sense of
aesthetics.
Frank: Charlie, who's playing the troll guy?
Charlie: You're gonna play the troll guy.
Frank: I'm the troll guy?
Charlie: Who else would be the troll?
Frank: Oh! I like that.
Charlie: All right, good.
Frank: Can I do it naked?
Charlie: Absolutely not. Why would you wanna be naked?
Frank: Because in the '70s, everybody did theater naked. Everybody
got laid all the time.
Paul|7.16.09 @ 8:18PM|#
You can't get around the law of thermodynamics.
Seward, gotta borrow you for another forum I'm on. There's a guy in
there who thinks you can run a car entirely off regenerative
braking.
Paul|7.16.09 @ 8:22PM|#
How is getting off the grid libertarian exactly?
*eyebrows raised*
Wow, to think that I could generate my own power without being
manipulated by government-run monopolies, to not be harangued with
energy conservation policies and schemes, to have my energy costs
subsidizing god-knows-what crackpot scheme some idiot politician
came up with in the dark of night after doing four lines of coke? I
mean, come on. And isn't there a sect of libertarianism that wants
to go build its own island somewhere and float around... off the
grid?
Paul|7.16.09 @ 8:24PM|#
I said this on a different thread yesterday. If we had followed Carter's advice for the last 30 years, we would be there now.
Carter started The NREL
So, like I said. We've been at this for a little while
now.
Tricky Prickears |7.16.09 @ 8:28PM|#
There's also another possible way to get off the grid. Jatropha curcas If you own some land in the desert. All you need is a diesel generator and a press.
|7.16.09 @ 8:32PM|#
I didn't rtfa. Did the fellow that got off the grid have to lower his consumption and change his lifestyle? That's the other half of Carter's energy policies. That's the one we all have such a tough time with.
Tricky Prickears |7.16.09 @ 8:33PM|#
So, like I said. We've been at this for a little while
now.
There's a wealth of technology out there. There's just
not much practical application. Cost effectiveness of fossil fuels
is very difficult to compete with. But as supplies begin to dwindle
(and eventually they will)(compounded by speculators), alternatives
begin to catch up. The question is: Do we start to phase them in
gradually, now, or wait and get stuck with our heads up our
asses?
The Angry Optimist|7.16.09 @ 8:34PM|#
Seward is right - libertarianism is not implicated or furthered by on-the-grid or off-the-grid: it's a personal choice.
Tricky Prickears |7.16.09 @ 8:37PM|#
Did the fellow that got off the grid have to lower his
consumption and change his lifestyle?
Not really. Watch the video, you lazy fuck :)
His house is Energy Star R38, but he has a hot tub, big screen
etc.
The Angry Optimist|7.16.09 @ 8:40PM|#
I note that his byproduct is oxygen. Not to be a douche, but are the long-term effects of placing that much oxygen into the atmosphere on a civilization-wide scale? And what about the use of water...is there a sufficient supply for nationwide implementation?
Jordan|7.16.09 @ 8:43PM|#
Did the fellow that got off the grid have to lower his consumption and change his lifestyle?
Yes. He's $500,000 poorer than he would have been.
Tricky Prickears |7.16.09 @ 8:47PM|#
is there a sufficient supply for nationwide
implementation?
This is no way even close to nationwide implementation.
I personally think it's a great example of good old fashioned
American Ingenuity.
Artificially placing oxygen into the atmosphere can only be a good
thing, considering all of the deforestation that's happening in
Mexico, Central and South America.
The Angry Optimist|7.16.09 @ 8:50PM|#
Tricky - I thought trees needed CO2
Jordan - he's not necessarily 500,000 poorer; he's 500K -
electricity bills + car gasoline bills = how much poorer he is.
However, assuming he wills the house to the kids, well,
they are now that much wealthier.
Jordan|7.16.09 @ 8:52PM|#
True. Although, I think it should be 500K - ( electricity bills + car gasoline bills) + maintenance/repair costs. I can't imagine him coming anywhere close to breaking even.
|7.16.09 @ 8:53PM|#
Tricky, this lazy fuck has now rtfa:}
It noted that he is using about 10 kwh per day.
I just looked at our electric bills. In the fall and spring, when
we aren't running the furnace or the AC, our consumption in a 1400
sq ft single story brick home is averaging 33 kwh/day. It makes me
curious as to what appliances he is using.
I am not calling bullshit. From my limited knowledge of other
methods of getting off the grid, cutting consumption is a major
factor. No 220v appliances etc.
It is a very interesting system he has set up. I did note in the
article that his cash outlay was 100k and the state gave 400k.
Tricky Prickears |7.16.09 @ 8:57PM|#
They do, but you're missing my point. Trees are responsible for
producing oxygen. In fact they convert CO2 to O2. So, with more
trees being cut down, the more CO2 and less O2. It's fucking
amazing. I saw before and after sat pics of Southern Mexico.
Thousands and thousands of acres of forest being cut down for
farming. I wish I could find the link.
Oh, and NJ sits on a water table. More fresh, naturally sand
filtered water then a small (land area) state of 8,000,000 could
ever use.
Tricky Prickears |7.16.09 @ 9:03PM|#
I think he said the solar panels are 10 kWh panels. They produce 10kW of power every hour. In the summer they produce 160% of what he needs. But I am sure conservation is part of it. It must be.
The Angry Optimist|7.16.09 @ 9:03PM|#
Jordan - ah, I forgot about maintenance costs. Those have got to
be a bitch for that kind of equipment.
Anyway, assuming that all prices stay the same:
Avg bill in NJ, for this guys house, probably equals (yearly) =
1800
1800 * 30 (years) = 54K
Gas: assume 12K miles per year, and given this guy's
predilications, a 40 mpg car. That's 300 gal per year, or 750 per
year (assuming current gas prices) = 22.5K (30 * 750) saved over 30
years.
So, yeah, he's probably not breaking even. But, if energy prices
double, he's not doing badly. 76.5*2 = 153K over 30 years.
The Angry Optimist|7.16.09 @ 9:05PM|#
In fact they convert CO2 to O2. So, with more trees being cut down, the more CO2 and less O2.
70% of O2 is produced by algae.
|7.16.09 @ 9:10PM|#
I have to wonder about the furture of such systems. As they
become more efficient and cost efective, they will result in a lot
more folks off the grid. Large consumers of electricity such as
paper mills and aluminum smelters won't be able to escape the grid.
Will the loss of private consumers result in electric utilities
raising the rates to the manufacturers to make up for the losses?
Will the decrease in production balance with lowered cost for coal
and natural gas? Will they ask for bigger subsidies from the
gubmint to stimulate their business?
Sorry. Just wandering around in my head
Tricky Prickears |7.16.09 @ 9:13PM|#
70% of O2 is produced by algae
Really? Not trying to be a smart ass. I didn't think it
was that much. I know that the oceans absorb CO2, and scientists
are worried that too much CO2 in the oceans will have an adverse
effect on coral reefs, which could fuck the entire ocean food
chain.
Tricky Prickears |7.16.09 @ 9:16PM|#
Sorry. Just wandering around in my head
I think we've reached an end. I got to run out and get
a pack of smokes. Later
Anonymous|7.16.09 @ 9:57PM|#
I saw before and after sat pics of Southern Mexico.
Thousands and thousands of acres of forest being cut down for
farming.
Considering that there's estimated to be more forest in the US now
than hundreds of years ago, for that very reason (which is often
new growth, if that matters, kept planted for commercial use; and
remember that smokey the bear campaigns invite forest fires), one
must ask: what the fuck is the US government oppressing
me for?
Further, it recalls the European eugenics experiment in which they
convinced African rulers to turn down US corn. Is anything of the
sort happening with the corrupt Mexican government, or is it
standard, millinea-old West Indian slash and burn? Because you'd
approach the former with fewer laws, and you'd approach the latter
with more technology.
|7.16.09 @ 10:08PM|#
Waxman and Markey are the Smoot and Hawley of the second great
depression. May they be reviled for generations.
-jcr
jtuf|7.16.09 @ 10:08PM|#
• The Corporate Average Fuel economy (CAFE) forces automakers to produce smaller and lighter cars. The National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA), estimated that these lighter cars will increase American traffic fatalities by almost 40,000.
Given how global warming scare mongers feel about car drivers, I
think they will list this as a feature, not a bug.
Paul|7.16.09 @ 11:07PM|#
Seward is right - libertarianism is not implicated or
furthered by on-the-grid or off-the-grid: it's a personal
choice.
I don't think I suggested (or meant to) that libertarianism is
"furthered" by going off the grid. I merely felt that most of the
libertarians I know tend to like not being dependent on government
monopolies for their staples. However, maybe I'm wrong. I posed an
argument. What's yours?
perilisk|7.16.09 @ 11:22PM|#
"If we calculate say, a 30 year projection, his energy bill is
$1,388 per month."
But in 2015 dollars, that's the cost of the cheapest item on Taco
Bell's menu.
"70% of O2 is produced by algae."
So ocean acidity is the more important consideration?
Chad|7.17.09 @ 12:07AM|#
More baseless and wild exaggerations of the cost of fighting
climate change? Check.
I PAY FIVE @#%$@#$@#$@#$@#$ EXTRA DOLLARS PER MONTH FOR 100%
RENEWABLE ENERGY FROM A MAJOR ELECTRIC COMPANY.
FIVE GOD DAMN BLEEPING DOLLARS.
Economic armageddon my ass.
Some right wing think tank can make up all the numbers they want,
but they cannot refute the reality of FIVE BLEEPING DOLLARS.
Chad|7.17.09 @ 12:11AM|#
Tricky Prickears | July 16, 2009, 8:33pm | #
Cost effectiveness of fossil fuels is very difficult to compete
with
Of course, if the government were to quit providing them with a
free garbage disposal service, this would no longer be the
case.
Why libertarians support such subsidies is beyond me.
Paul|7.17.09 @ 12:54AM|#
I PAY FIVE @#%$@#$@#$@#$@#$ EXTRA DOLLARS PER MONTH FOR 100%
RENEWABLE ENERGY FROM A MAJOR ELECTRIC COMPANY.
FIVE GOD DAMN BLEEPING DOLLARS.
No you don't. Someone else pays the rest of the subsidy.
smartass sob|7.17.09 @ 1:05AM|#
No you don't. Someone else pays the rest of the
subsidy.
You beat me to it, Paul. ;-)
Chad|7.17.09 @ 1:14AM|#
"Chad, you're not a tool...you're a fucking toolbox."
If you give me a dollar I will let you put your toolbox in my
mouth.
|7.17.09 @ 5:35AM|#
thanks for sharing...
___________________
Britney
The
best place for the best ENTERTAINMENT
Chad|7.17.09 @ 6:51AM|#
No you don't. Someone else pays the rest of the subsidy.
The subsidy is (the production tax credit) is 1.6c kwh I believe.
That is another five dollars or so.
Wow, TEN dollars would surely break my back, wouldn't it?
Of course, your coal consumption is subsidized much more. Indeed,
if you can find a peer-reviewed estimate of the externalities of
coal that put it at LESS than 4c/kwh as the mid-point of the
estimate, I would be interested in seeing it.
Seward|7.17.09 @ 7:49AM|#
Paul, etc.,
I wasn't making a claim about being off the grid or on it. I was
just asking a question, because it is something I'd never really
thought about before.
FermatsLastFlamewar|7.17.09 @ 8:23AM|#
Seward:
I think they were speaking to the self-sufficient aspects of being
off the grid as being libertarian. Also, I can't help but mention
that it would be the lawS of thermodynamics. Forgive me; thermo
turns me into an irritating twat.
IIRC, they have been studying solar since Bell labs started in the
the thirties with only marginal improvements in efficiency
since the sixties. Plus, there's the storage problems.
The major group to blame in the energy sector of the last 30 years
is the environmental zealot contingent which successfully
marginalized nuclear in this country, eliminating the clearest
balance of clean and cheap that we have to this day.
Cabeza de Vaca|7.17.09 @ 8:38AM|#
"They do, but you're missing my point. Trees are responsible for
producing oxygen. In fact they convert CO2 to O2. So, with more
trees being cut down, the more CO2 and less O2. It's fucking
amazing. I saw before and after sat pics of Southern Mexico.
Thousands and thousands of acres of forest being cut down for
farming."
Don't all plants convert CO2 to O2. So wouldn't the farm crops be
producing O2, with the added benefit of feeding people.
Cabeza de Vaca|7.17.09 @ 8:40AM|#
"A New Jersey civil engineer powers his home with solar panels
and hydrogen tanks."
Being that hydrogen is highly explosive. I'll stay on the grid.
|7.17.09 @ 8:52AM|#
The National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA),
estimated that these lighter cars will increase American traffic
fatalities by almost 40,000.
Give this stat to the AARP and see how quickly the bill dies.
Little old people love their huge cars.
|7.17.09 @ 10:05AM|#
How is getting off the grid libertarian exactly?
Its a self-reliance thing, which maps well to libertarianism
generally.
Although, since libertarianism is about both choice and
self-responsibility, its not a 100% match.
In noodling about the Rancho Dean, I am definitely looking into
being as grid-independent as feasible.
PR|7.17.09 @ 10:27AM|#
His energy bill is $0.00
and all he had to do was steal $400k from his neighbors prick.
|7.17.09 @ 11:37AM|#
The National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA), estimated that these lighter cars will increase American traffic fatalities by almost 40,000.
Errr...over what kind of time interval?
Unless I'm remembering wrong there's just over 30k traffic
fatalities a year now.
|7.17.09 @ 12:40PM|#
The National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA),
estimated that these lighter cars will increase American traffic
fatalities by almost 40,000.
Per day, judging by the way people drive around here.
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