Reason Morning Links: Cities Back in Vogue, Sen. Al Franken, Vicodin Ban Looming

Radley Balko | July 1, 2009

• Say hello to the newly instated Senator Stuart Smalley.

• FDA panel recommends a ban on seven prescription painkillers, including Percocet and Vicodin.

• Surprise! Just-passed House energy bill larded with corporate welfare and pork projects.

• Census data show that cities are making a comeback, at the expense of suburbs.

• States hit hardest by the recession seeing a smaller proportional share of stimulus spending.

Comments

BlueBook|7.1.09 @ 7:22AM|#

• FDA panel recommends a ban on seven prescription painkillers, including Percocet and Vicodin.

They'd better put Dr. House on suicide watch.

Tricky Prickears|7.1.09 @ 7:31AM|#

"At 60, every member has a veto," says Eric Ueland, who was chief of staff to former Senate Majority Leader Bill Frist, R-Tenn. Meaning that any of the 60 senators - 58 Democrats and two Democratic-leaning independents - gain added leverage in negotiations with the White House or even their own leadership.

Good news for DC area escort agencies.

|7.1.09 @ 8:00AM|#

FDA panel recommends a ban on seven prescription painkillers, including Percocet and Vicodin.

They should all have their left upper femur shattered into 17 pieces by a .38 at close range, requiring surgery to put all the pieces back together with 4 bone screws, 2 pins, a plate, and two feet of wire to hold all the small stuff together and then be sent home with just a handful of Extra-Strength Excedrin to see them through six months of physical therapy to learn how to walk again.

|7.1.09 @ 8:01AM|#

These drugs should be illegal. They are adulterations. Acetaminophen can be had anywhere. There is zero reason to combine it with opioids. Wearing my tin hat, I think they were created to kill junkies via liver failure. Just prescribe the ibuprofen versions. Or better yet, end the drug war!

|7.1.09 @ 8:10AM|#

I think they were created to kill junkies via liver failure.

I think it was more of a convenient ancillary bonus. Anyway, the opioids aren't going away. I'll gladly pick up my Gen-2 APAP-Free Vicodin and finally stop worrying about my liver failing if I have a drink.

They should all have their left upper femur shattered into 17 pieces by a .38 at close range

I warned you not to call Jamie Kennedy a pussy again.

|7.1.09 @ 8:10AM|#

From the NYT article on the House Cap and Trade Bill:

"This was seen as either impossible or enormously expensive in the Southeast, which does not have abundant supplies of such energy. The standard was weakened to 15 percent by 2020, with states given the ability to reduce it further if they cannot meet the target. That helped win Mr. Gordon and Mr. Butterfield's votes. Mr. Barrow voted no."

Thank goodness the States have the power to ignore this garbage if they so choose.

MNG|7.1.09 @ 8:12AM|#

"I think the danger of that for the country is that there won't automatically be an ability to restrain the excess that is typically associated with big majorities and single-party rule," he said."

Since when is the Democratic party a single party?

|7.1.09 @ 8:16AM|#

The Real Bill,

I agree with you, but I know that's not how it will play out. They won't allow the reformulated/unadulterated drugs on the market, and taking Vicodin and Percocet off the shelves will make the safer version also "dangerous" and less-prescribed because most doctors aren't very smart in the first place. (i.e. They will associate the dangerous with the hydrocodone not the acetaminophen.)

Acetaminophen toxicity will continue because it has nothing to do with effective painkillers and is a phenomenon associated with rank stupidity, not misunderstanding or mislabeling.

Again, end the drug war... but this particular move only ensures even more people will be under-served pain medications.

MNG|7.1.09 @ 8:26AM|#

sf
well said

MNG|7.1.09 @ 8:30AM|#

"Census data show that cities are making a comeback, at the expense of suburbs."

Joe smiled as he read the words for the second time. Leaning back in his chair and sipping from his hair o'the dog, he let out a sigh of pleasure. He had put things in place long ago, and now everything was falling into place. "It has begun" he thought, and his smile hardened into a grin.

Cabeza de Vaca|7.1.09 @ 8:33AM|#

It was a bad idea to add acetaminophen to opiates in the first place. I think it was done to keep poeple from drinking while taking them.

|7.1.09 @ 8:34AM|#

Is there a reason why hydrocodone is partnered with the acetominephen? Does the acetominephen help the uptake of the hyrocodone or somehow boost the efficacy of the pill? Do we really have to continue fucking with evolution in humans? Does the FDA need a mirror and a rubber since they have lost their damn mind? Should they be outlawing cars since they kill a buttload of people every day?

MNG|7.1.09 @ 8:35AM|#

I've always wondered about why they acetominephen is in the hydrocodone too. At least, what is the "given" answer?

Xeones|7.1.09 @ 8:38AM|#

Yo, fuck acetaminophen.

For the record, i lived in a city before it was cool (again).

Rich|7.1.09 @ 8:40AM|#

> Consumers need to be better educated about the risks of popular medicines, most panel members agreed.

Think I smell another czar ...

Cabeza de Vaca|7.1.09 @ 8:41AM|#

"Acetaminophen toxicity will continue because it has nothing to do with effective painkillers and is a phenomenon associated with rank stupidity, not misunderstanding or mislabeling."

When I was a EMT a long time ago. We picked up a patient who had tried to commit suicide by swallowing a whole bottle of Tylenol. He waited 2 days before he sought help. He probably did himself in, but not a way I would want to die. He kept pointing to the spot where his liver was & said it really hurt there.

DHS Thinks I\'m a Terrorist|7.1.09 @ 8:48AM|#

"Say hello to the newly instated Senator Stuart Smalley."

Michael Savage is someone I rarely agree with but I occasionally listen to him on my drive home from work. He made a good point yesterday though. It seems that only left-leaning individuals can get away with creating offensively stereotypical gay portrayals in todays society and not pay some kind of social penalty for it. He was speaking not only of Al Franken but also of Sacha Noam Baron Cohen.

Rich|7.1.09 @ 8:51AM|#

"but at least it's transparent."

"Transparent" is like "terrorism" -- increasingly meaningless. RTFB.

DHS Thinks I\'m a Terrorist|7.1.09 @ 8:53AM|#

"FDA panel recommends a ban on seven prescription painkillers, including Percocet and Vicodin."

Here is my question. Will the USSC have to hear another, separate case involving strip searches on 13 year old girls who might have acetaminophen in her underwear? After all if she took too much of it might cause liver damage. It is for her own good right?

|7.1.09 @ 8:55AM|#

brotherben and MNG,

The line that I've always been fed is that the Acetaminophen works with the hydrocodone so they can work in a more efficient synergistic effect.

It really is complete bullshit. The APAP is just there to limit the amount you can take to curb abuse. The manufacturers themselves say that. Hydrocodone and oxycodone work just fine without APAP. Better, in fact. Oxycontin is just oxy with no APAP and in a time release form. That's why you can get so high if you crush them up.

Treating everyone in pain like a junkie looking for a fix is the worst thing the Feds ever did to healthcare in this country from an individual patient standpoint. All it does is create needless suffering in order to inconvenience a few junkies.

DHS Thinks I\'m a Terrorist|7.1.09 @ 8:57AM|#

"All it does is create needless suffering in order to inconvenience a few junkies."

LIke the entire War on Drugs

|7.1.09 @ 8:58AM|#

DHS,

It's worse than that. APAP can be administered as a vaginal suppository. Imagine the strip searches that opens up. Every school nurse station in the country will have a speculum.

Tim|7.1.09 @ 8:59AM|#

FDA panel recommends a ban on seven prescription painkillers, including Percocet and Vicodin.

Medically this is no problem, you can take them separately if you need them. The problem is I think the DEA requires that opiates be mixed with acetaminophen to be schedule III, opiates alone are schedule II.

The idea is to prevent people from getting high. /sarcasm/I guess it is better to have people die than get high./sarcasm/

Schedule II is limited pretty much to terminal illness, so this will result in more patients in pain.

creech|7.1.09 @ 8:59AM|#

Fewer surbanites = good. Fewer kids to tell to "keep off my lawn."

Xeones|7.1.09 @ 9:01AM|#

Treating everyone in pain like a junkie looking for a fix is the worst thing the Feds ever did to healthcare in this country from an individual patient standpoint.

Yo, fuck the Federal Government. There is a special place in Hell for bureaucrats and Puritans (Pureaucrats?)

|7.1.09 @ 9:01AM|#

Xodol 10/300 is a nice alternative for those that are concerned about acetominephen intake. All the hydrocodone, half the tylenol. Works great, less filling. It is what my doc gave me when I asked about the long term liver consequences. Anecdotally, I noticed no difference in pain relief.
If the fda takes away the pain management tools for folks like me in severe chronic pain, I predict a dramatic rise in killings. Pain makes me very angry when uncontrolled.

DHS Thinks I\'m a Terrorist|7.1.09 @ 9:02AM|#

"It's worse than that. APAP can be administered as a vaginal suppository. Imagine the strip searches that opens up. Every school nurse station in the country will have a speculum."

And thus homeschooling will become the norm. What father would want his daughter to go through that at school? Unless the NEA can pressure the feds to ban homeschooling.

|7.1.09 @ 9:02AM|#

Schedule II is limited pretty much to terminal illness

Percocet is already schedule II. Vicodin is III.

Xeones|7.1.09 @ 9:05AM|#

Unless the NEA can pressure the feds to ban homeschooling.

Now you're thinking like a pureaucrat!

Tim|7.1.09 @ 9:06AM|#

Percocet is already schedule II. Vicodin is III.

Maybe I was wrong, but doctors are hesitant to prescribe schedule II.

|7.1.09 @ 9:11AM|#

Percocet -- schedule II -- is given after dental procedures, labor, cosmetic surgery, etc.

It's not a big point to argue, but the C-II cabinet in any pharmacy gets opened many many times a day.

Mad Max|7.1.09 @ 9:13AM|#

The Franken article, discussing the new 60-person Senate majority, refers to Sen. Bernard Sanders of Vermont as 'a Vermont liberal.'

So that's what the kids are calling it nowadays!

An article from the Burlington (Vermont) Free Press calls Sanders an 'impassioned socialist.' Sanders likes the article so much, he reproduces it on his own Web site:

http://www.sanders.senate.gov/news/record.cfm?id=293115

|7.1.09 @ 9:16AM|#

"Michael Savage is someone I rarely agree with but I occasionally listen to him on my drive home from work. He made a good point yesterday though. It seems that only left-leaning individuals can get away with creating offensively stereotypical gay portrayals in todays society and not pay some kind of social penalty for it. He was speaking not only of Al Franken but also of Sacha Noam Baron Cohen."

I don't see how either of those characters are anything but what minstrel shows were to black people. If I were gay, I would want to kick both of their asses. The gay men I have known have never been anything like that. Honestly, I don't understand why GLADD isn't all over them, especially Cohn. The Stewart Smalley character is just annoying and unfunny. The Bruno character is over the top offensive.

|7.1.09 @ 9:17AM|#

Since when is the Democratic party a single party?

When it comes to votes done in committee, for the most part. The real work, or damage if you prefer, is done at the committee level. Again, in most cases, the big floor votes are done just for theatrics.

Art-P.O.G.|7.1.09 @ 9:20AM|#

Pureaucrats?

Xeones: nice neologism. That one's a keeper (just like robominstrelry).

Xeones|7.1.09 @ 9:22AM|#

Xeones: nice neologism.

Thanks, Art. I think i like it even better than zombobamautomatons. It's got more bipartisan potential, you know?

Rhywun|7.1.09 @ 9:26AM|#

Honestly, I don't understand why GLADD isn't all over them, especially Cohn.

Um, because a lot of gay men ARE like that, and besides, the whole point of the character is to elicit reactions to his over-the-top flamboyance, not to make fun of gays as you and Savage seem to misunderstand it.

Art-P.O.G.|7.1.09 @ 9:32AM|#

Treating everyone in pain like a junkie looking for a fix is the worst thing the Feds ever did to healthcare in this country from an individual patient standpoint. All it does is create needless suffering in order to inconvenience a few junkies.

SF,

Very, very nicely said.

DHS Thinks I\'m a Terrorist|7.1.09 @ 9:32AM|#

"Um, because a lot of gay men ARE like that, and besides, the whole point of the character is to elicit reactions to his over-the-top flamboyance, not to make fun of gays as you and Savage seem to misunderstand it."

That may the point of the new movie (I have not yet seen it). But the character on Da Ali G. Show I don't think interacted with people on the street like that.

Art-P.O.G.|7.1.09 @ 9:36AM|#

Rhywun,

What sort of portrayals or stereotypes of people are acceptable or not beyond-the-pale offensive is seemingly endlessly debatable. I guess it depends on the context.

|7.1.09 @ 9:36AM|#

"Um, because a lot of gay men ARE like that, and besides, the whole point of the character is to elicit reactions to his over-the-top flamboyance, not to make fun of gays as you and Savage seem to misunderstand it."

Bullshit. First, a lot of gay men are not like that. Some gay men are like that. Second, by that standard nothing is ever offensive. The Cohn theory seems to be that he can create some over the top offensive charactature of a group and claim that he is really not making fun of the group but the people who think the group is really like that. You could apply that justification to any charactature no matter how offensive.

Sorry I am not buying it. Cohen is an unfunny pig. In creating this character he is just re-enforcing the idea that gay men are freaks obsessed with fashion and teenage boys. Indeed, he apparently has reinforced your bigotry against gay men since you seem to think that a lot of gay men are like that.

Art-P.O.G.|7.1.09 @ 9:38AM|#

Well, with Sacha Baron Cohen, I think he plays well off of either the decency/unwillingness to offend of others or conversely, the xenophobia/bigotry of others. I almost view his characters as ciphers.

|7.1.09 @ 9:38AM|#

I wonder how much abuse of Vicodin there is in Canada where it's OTC. You have to get it from the pharmacist and sign for it in Ontario, I don't know about the other provinces.

The last time I took Vicodin was for an abscessed tooth. It didn't do a bit of good for the pain and I broke out in a rash. I assume I'm allergic. And the whole time I was taking it I was terrified I was ODing. I don't normally use Acetaminophen, can't really see any reason to not use IB or aspirin.

|7.1.09 @ 9:39AM|#

"Well, with Sacha Baron Cohen, I think he plays well off of either the decency/unwillingness to offend of others or conversely, the xenophobia/bigotry of others. I almost view his characters as ciphers."

Borat was just two hours of Cohen being a complete asshole to polite unsuspecting people. It is not art. It is not funny. It is not creative or interesting. Anyone can be an asshole. It happens every day.

|7.1.09 @ 9:39AM|#

Thanks, Art.

Inadequate pain meds are a hobbyhorse of mine. Look back at my first comment on this thread. I didn't pull that scenario out of thin air. I managed with buckets of Vicodin, but just barely.

Art-P.O.G.|7.1.09 @ 9:40AM|#

John,

Rhywun is gay (not that that means he can't be bigoted against gays, I just find it implausible).

|7.1.09 @ 9:40AM|#

I have never found vicadin to be that effective either.

|7.1.09 @ 9:42AM|#

"Rhywun is gay (not that that means he can't be bigoted against gays, I just find it implausible)."

If didn't know that. My apologies Rywyn. My experince with gay men, is probably not as extensive as yours. But I have found few of them to be affirmatively, creepy fabulous. I for the life of me can't understand why any gay man would want to be associated with those who are.

Art-P.O.G.|7.1.09 @ 9:43AM|#

SF,

Yeesh, you are seemingly not a lucky man with injuries.

John,

I thought Borat was hysterical, but I guess the reaction one has to watching it depends on one's sense of humor. I just happen to think Cohen behaves like an asshole exceedingly well.

|7.1.09 @ 9:46AM|#

ART POG,

I hated Borat probably more than anything because I hate bullies. Cohn went out and found the most politically acceptable and easy people to make fun of. He just took advantage of people who can't defend themselves. I think he is scum.

Art-P.O.G.|7.1.09 @ 9:46AM|#

But I have found few of them to be affirmatively, creepy fabulous.

Ditto. One of my closest friends is gay, and he's the furthest thing from 'fabulous'. Most gay people I meet don't fit that stereotype, but I have definitely met a few that even exceeded it.

Art-P.O.G.|7.1.09 @ 9:48AM|#

John,

I don't like bullies either (I was half an outcast growing up), but if Cohen's act is bullying, I'll make an exception.

|7.1.09 @ 9:49AM|#

"I meet don't fit that stereotype, but I have definitely met a few that even exceeded it."

I met the dude who won project Runway last year at a fund raising event my wife was running. He definitely exceeded the sterotype. But, I think he was just kind of a strange kid to begin with who happened to be gay. I don't think his hitting the stereotype was a product of him being gay as much as that was just how he is.

Rhywun|7.1.09 @ 9:51AM|#

he is just re-enforcing the idea that gay men are freaks obsessed with fashion and teenage boys

I've seen the character many times on the original show and there was never any hint of obsession with teenage boys. Frankly, I think you're letting YOUR stereotypes cloud your judgement.

|7.1.09 @ 9:52AM|#

Um, because a lot of gay men ARE like that

Why do I get the impression that you're the kind of liberal who knows all about whatever minority group is under discussion, even though you don't actually know any of them personally?

-jcr

Rhywun|7.1.09 @ 9:54AM|#

I don't think his hitting the stereotype was a product of him being gay as much as that was just how he is.

That's pretty much what a "stereotype" is--an occasionally accurate mental image of some cohort.

Art-P.O.G.|7.1.09 @ 9:56AM|#

Well, strange and eccentric people are definitely some of my favorite people...until they get as weird as Michael Jackson (R.I.P.) and then I'm not sure I want to hang out with them.

Rhywun|7.1.09 @ 9:56AM|#

Why do I get the impression that you're the kind of liberal who knows all about whatever minority group is under discussion, even though you don't actually know any of them personally?

I have no idea why you get that impression. It's wrong on almost every count.

Xeones|7.1.09 @ 9:58AM|#

I've seen the character many times on the original show and there was never any hint of obsession with teenage boys.

Teenage boys, no. Ron Paul, yes.

Art-P.O.G.|7.1.09 @ 10:00AM|#

Rhywun, that's a good definition. I don't think stereotypes are that big a deal, as long as people can keep them in perspective. I like to think that most people are keenly aware that Bruno is deliberately ridiculous, just like Borat.

|7.1.09 @ 10:02AM|#

"I've seen the character many times on the original show and there was never any hint of obsession with teenage boys. Frankly, I think you're letting YOUR stereotypes cloud your judgement."

Frankly, you don't know shit about what my stereotypes are.

Art-P.O.G.|7.1.09 @ 10:02AM|#

I should add that it's easier to keep stereotypes in perspective if you know Asian people, blacks, gays, etc. who don't or largely don't fit the stereotypes assigned to their cohort.

|7.1.09 @ 10:03AM|#

"I like to think that most people are keenly aware that Bruno is deliberately ridiculous, just like Borat."

Then what is wrong with performing in black face?

Jay|7.1.09 @ 10:03AM|#

SFree-

Were you in law enforcement at the time or just getting busy with a married woman? :-)

creech|7.1.09 @ 10:04AM|#

The tv ads for "Bruno" show Ron Paul twice.
What's the story?

Art-P.O.G.|7.1.09 @ 10:05AM|#

Then again, I don't know any Kazakhs, but that shit (Borat) was still absurd to me.

I'll still insist that Cohen's films/comedy segments are fairly worthy sociological studies.

Rhywun|7.1.09 @ 10:07AM|#

Frankly, you don't know shit about what my stereotypes are.

Great. Then stop making shit up.

Art-P.O.G.|7.1.09 @ 10:11AM|#

Then what is wrong with performing in black face?

I thought Bamboozled was good if not great 'till about 2/3rds through.

To be honest, that's a difficult question because there is a long history of minstrelry in this country with some heavily negative associations.

Homosexuals, while supressed and persecuted for an even longer time throughout history, have rarely been portrayed as overtly in American media AFAIK until far more recently. The physical appearance of gay people was rarely disparaged comparably.

So maybe blackface and gay stereotypes are an inapt comparison? You're free to disagree with that assessment.

|7.1.09 @ 10:12AM|#

SugarFree,
I hope you're wrong, but I fear you're right.

Art-P.O.G.|7.1.09 @ 10:15AM|#

Then there's the whole glam scene where both gays and straights adopted overtly foppish appearances...the tradition of blackface is largely disconnected and even disjunctive from the tradition of male femininity in appearance IMHO.

|7.1.09 @ 10:17AM|#

"So maybe blackface and gay stereotypes are an inapt comparison? You're free to disagree with that assessment."

I think the stereotype that gay men are happy fashion obsessed fairies is just as historically prevelent as the stereotype that black people are simple, happy slaves. The only way that life was better for gay people in the 19th and most of the 20th Century was that, unlike black people, gay people could hide who they were. The history of this or most societies treatment of gay people is pretty dark up until the last 40 years. I think the comparison is pretty apt.

Of course, some gay people like Rywyn embrace and encourage the stereotype. So maybe it isn't apt. Of course some black people embraced the minstral stereotype to.

Art-P.O.G.|7.1.09 @ 10:20AM|#

I'm not going to donwplay the homophobia of our society, but as far as it relates to physical appearance (see: metrosexuality), it's hard to compare. Hell, dudes shaved their faces and wore wigs back during the late 18th century.

Blackface is very blunt by comparison even to what Cohen does, IMO.

|7.1.09 @ 10:20AM|#

"Then there's the whole glam scene where both gays and straights adopted overtly foppish appearances...the tradition of blackface is largely disconnected and even disjunctive from the tradition of male femininity in appearance IMHO."

Bruno is not David Bowe. He is a specific type of gay characterture. Cohn is also not a gay man trying to grab and defuse the stereotype. He is a straight guy acting out the most offensive stereotypes there are about gay men. If you don't think that is offensive, what about if he were a woman? What if Cohen were a woman who dressed up like the dirtyest most masculine bull dyke imaginable. My guess is gay women wouldn't find it funny. If it is not funny then, why is it with a man doing it.

|7.1.09 @ 10:21AM|#

Stereotypes exist for a reason and it's not because they are always true. It's because the most obvious and/or outspoken segment of a demographic is the one that garners the most attention. The redneck stereotype exists as an incorrect catch-all for "southerner" because the people that perpetuate that stereotype are the most recognizable portion of the demographic. It's not because there are more of them, but because they stand out. Likewise, flamboyant gay men obviously stand out more than other gay men.

|7.1.09 @ 10:21AM|#

SFree-

Were you in law enforcement at the time or just getting busy with a married woman? :-)

Or did you shoot yourself?

Xeones|7.1.09 @ 10:23AM|#

The tv ads for "Bruno" show Ron Paul twice.
What's the story?

Bruno lines up an interview with Ron Paul in a hotel room, then tries to seduce him.

|7.1.09 @ 10:23AM|#

"I'm not going to donwplay the homophobia of our society, but as far as it relates to physical appearance (see: metrosexuality), it's hard to compare. Hell, dudes shaved their faces and wore wigs back during the late 18th century."

But they didn't act like Bruno. Granted, the 18th Century was an odd time for men's fashion. But no one was acting "gay". And anyone who was found to be gay would have met a very bad end.

Art-P.O.G.|7.1.09 @ 10:27AM|#

John,

A straight man acting out such a stereotypically gay role could definitely be seen as condescending, as an educated or wealthy person playing out a bumpkin or minstrel stereotype could also be seen as condescending or offensive. The question must be asked what purpose does the person have in mind in portraying this character. Whether you find the actor or actress' purpose and motivation palatable determines whether you find their portrayal acceptable. Maybe in entertainment the ends can justify the means, maybe not.

It reminds me of the controversy over American Psycho.

Rhywun|7.1.09 @ 10:29AM|#

Minstrel was not a reflection of any stereotype, it was a cruel put down. I don't know why you are trying to equate it with what Cohen is doing.

And again I wish you would stop making shit up. I don't "embrace and encourage" any stereotype. I myself am nothing like the stereotype Cohen is portraying. But go into any bar full of gay males and you will definitely see some examples of the type. What you won't see is anyone who is offended by what Cohen's doing. Stop trying the calculate the reasoning for this and that and just pay attention to the world around you.

|7.1.09 @ 10:30AM|#

Very true ARt. I look at Bruno and hear all the convuluted justifications given for how he is really not making fun of gay people but point out stereotypes and think "but look at him". I guess I believe my lying eyes over faux intellectual post hoc justifications for his act.

|7.1.09 @ 10:32AM|#

"I don't "embrace and encourage" any stereotype."

1. Cohen is a stereotype of gay men. True?
2. You admit that "a lot of gay men are like that'. True?
3. You are not offended by Cohn. True?

If that is not embracing and encouraging the stereotype what is? You admit that he is a stereotype that is typical in the community and is not offensive. That is embracing and encouraging it. Sorry.

Art-P.O.G.|7.1.09 @ 10:33AM|#

John,

I agree with your 10:23 post, but I do think the fashions of that time tie into this theatrical aesthetic that gay men seem to embrace more often or by greater percentage than straight men. Definitely not all gay men have anything to do with this aesthetic. But for those who do, I wonder at what frequency it's by conscious effort and at what frequency they "fall into it" culturally.

|7.1.09 @ 10:35AM|#

"Minstrel was not a reflection of any stereotype, it was a cruel put down"

And dressing up and acting like some bizzare freak is not a put down to gay men? If it is not a put down, why do go out of your way in like every post on this thread to point out how you are not like that? From the way you portray the Bruno character, you would think you would want to be that.

|7.1.09 @ 10:38AM|#

"I agree with your 10:23 post, but I do think the fashions of that time tie into this theatrical aesthetic that gay men seem to embrace more often or by greater percentage than straight men."

I don't know. Maybe. 18th Century men were trying to embrace some kind of renassiance ideal of the gentleman. It was definitely efeminate. Indeed, it was rejected by the public. In the 18th Century, the public rarely considered nobility to be hereos. Instead, the more masculine rouge was the comman man's hero. Later rougher men like Nelson came along and really created the 19th Century ideal of manhood as a rejection of the fopish 18th Century ideal.

|7.1.09 @ 10:40AM|#

NavyVet | July 1, 2009, 10:21am | #

SFree-

Were you in law enforcement at the time or just getting busy with a married woman? :-)

Or did you shoot yourself?

No, a friend of mine shot me. The classic gun-cleaning accident. Went into my thigh quite close to my, um, Crunch Berries and came out my left butt cheek. Luckily it was a target round; the doctor told me I would have lost the leg if it had been a hollow point at that range (about two feet.)

|7.1.09 @ 10:43AM|#

Consumers need to be better educated about the risks of popular medicines, most panel members agreed.

Think I smell another czar tard ...

And this:

APAP can be administered as a vaginal suppository. Imagine the strip searches that opens up. Every school nurse station vice principal in the country will have a speculum.

C'mon, people. Where's the over-the-top bitterness I come here for?

|7.1.09 @ 10:44AM|#

Not to mention the HTML skillz.

APAP can be administered as a vaginal suppository. Imagine the strip searches that opens up. Every school nurse station vice principal in the country will have a speculum.

Rhywun|7.1.09 @ 10:50AM|#

If it is not a put down, why do go out of your way in like every post on this thread to point out how you are not like that?

I mentioned it one time, John. You're just not going to stop making shit up, are you?

From the way you portray the Bruno character, you would think you would want to be that.

Are you really this fucking simple-minded? Wait a minute, I've been reading your shit for years here. Of course you are.

Robert|7.1.09 @ 10:55AM|#

As long as ibuprofen-narcotic and aspirin-narcotic combinations are available, I see little effect on prescribing. If, however, those come under more of a cloud, then probably it will be good because peer pressure will make straight narcotics prescribing more prevalent, with narcotics becoming less suspicious.

|7.1.09 @ 10:59AM|#

A certain sub-set of gay men exhibit a similar set of affectations that are so consistent it is easy to stereotype it to all gay men. Considering that the affectation set is so opposed to gender norms, it is extremely self-reinforcing in small sample sizes. (i.e. the one bitchy queen sticks with the external observer more than the 10 non-effete gay guys quietly going about their lives.)

There is nothing about being a gay male that creates or forces a person to adopt those affectations, just as nothing about being a young straight guy on a college campus forces or compels you to be a douchebag. Effete is a choice. Douchebag frat guy is a choice.

I don't think making fun of the affectation set is a problem. Assuming that the affectation set is a necessary condition of a gay male's sexual orientation is the problem. But those concepts are very, very hard to divorce from one another. I imagine Cohen is making fun of the affectations, not the sexual orientation, but that doesn't mean everyone's going to be in on the joke.

|7.1.09 @ 11:04AM|#

Then what is wrong with performing in black face?

You leave C. Thomas Howell alone, you hear?

|7.1.09 @ 11:07AM|#

"Are you really this fucking simple-minded? Wait a minute, I've been reading your shit for years here. Of course you are."

You apparently are so simple minded you can't separate snark from argument. But the point, as snarky as it was, still stands. If Bruno is not offensive and represents a large part of the gay community, why make a point of saying you are "not like that"? Isn't being like that a pretty good thing to be all things considered?

|7.1.09 @ 11:09AM|#

Wait a minute...WAS Stuart Smalley supposed to be gay? I don't remember anything about his sexuality coming up in the SNL skits or the movie.

|7.1.09 @ 11:18AM|#

No, Tulpa, he was just wussy. How offensive that you don't know the difference?!

DHS Thinks I\'m a Terrorist|7.1.09 @ 11:23AM|#

So, since we are on the topic of stereotypes, what of Jeff Foxworthy? Is he the modern equivalent of Stepin Fetchit?

|7.1.09 @ 11:28AM|#

"So, since we are on the topic of stereotypes, what of Jeff Foxworthy? Is he the modern equivalent of Stepin Fetchit?"

Foxworthy is an interesting case. If you watch the guy, he is anything but a crazy redneck. He is a total henpecked metrosexual who happens to make redneck jokes. Indeed, most of his jokes these days seem to releate to various indignities inflicted on him by his wife and daughters.

Rhywun|7.1.09 @ 11:45AM|#

If Bruno is not offensive and represents a large part of the gay community, why make a point of saying you are "not like that"?

I only raised it to point out that gays of all kinds are not at all as offended by Cohen's portrayal as you seem to be. I suspected you would jump all over it and add it to the list of everything I've said that you've twisted around, but those are the chances we take around here.

|7.1.09 @ 11:54AM|#

Rhwyn,

Bruno is lampooning you not me. Good for you for not being offended. I find it offensive and gross. Perhaps I am naive, but I don't think of gay men that way and would hope the rest of the world doesn't either. I don't see how Bruno helps in anyway or does anything but insult. But that is just me.

jtuf|7.1.09 @ 12:01PM|#

The difference between a city and a suburb is relative. The census table listed Newark, Jersey City, Paterson, Yonkers, New Haven, and Stamford as cities, but around here we call them suburbs of New York City.

Come to think of it, the last time I spent a night in Manhattan, it seemed down right suburban to me. There were many families walking slowly on the sidewalks. No more yuppies with their husle and busle. They've grown up and bred.

Rhywun|7.1.09 @ 12:01PM|#

Bruno is lampooning you not me.

I'm guessing you've never seen the character on the original series. He's not lampooning gays, he's doing it to get a rise out of NON-gays. Like the time he had a bunch of frat boys on the beach, photographing them posing in swim trunks, and then told them it would be in an Austrian gay magazine & watched them freak out. Who do you think that's making fun of?

Rhywun|7.1.09 @ 12:11PM|#

"Cities" are simply incorporated local governments, with wildly varying definitions around the country. There's little point in comparing them in this way. But the examples you cited really are cities in the commonly-understood sense; they have downtowns, business districts, etc. There are lots of "cities" that really are nothing more than suburban housing tracts, which grow to tremendous size in states like California and others.

|7.1.09 @ 1:29PM|#

John, can you for once back the fuck off and admit you might be wrong? Jesus Christ, a non-effete gay man is informing you what certain gay men feel about Bruno. You might want to allow for experience here.

|7.1.09 @ 1:43PM|#

Epi,

Can't you back the fuck off and stay out of an agrument that doesn't involve you? Good for Rywyn for not being offended. But I don't agree with his interpretation of Bruno. Cohen is a nasty fuck. The fact that some gay men or this particular gay man won't call him as much, doesn't change my opinion of him.

Art-P.O.G.|7.1.09 @ 1:52PM|#

John,

Cohen's pretty edgy, but for some reason he's never struck me as a nasty guy, or at least any meaner than he had to be to make his schtick work.

Rhywun|7.1.09 @ 2:08PM|#

John, if you don't think he's funny, just say so; but don't pretend that gays should be offended, because they're not.

Another example: In Living Color circa 1990. "Men on Film". Two straight actors gay it up outrageously and review films for their "gayness". Were gays offended? Hardly. The sketches played in gay bars to gales of laughter. Conversations stopped when the sketches came up in the rotation of music videos.