Reason.tv Redux: What If Government Ran Health Care? (Sprint Ad Remix)

So is this what happens when everyone on Medicare (a government program) or when every congressman or congresswoman (who are covered by a government program) gets healthcare? God forbid the government, unlike private insurers, should put an administrator between me and my doctor. What a dishonest debate.

nooone|6.27.09 @ 11:56AM|#

Hmmm... How about an ad from Canadians asking the U.S. not to enact socialized medicine, as it would prevent them, Canadians, from getting quality care? As they don't get it from their socialized system... Get it?

tarran|6.27.09 @ 12:47PM|#

This video is puerile rubbish, and whoever decided to produce it should have that authority taken away from them.

We have plenty of examples of government's inability to efficiently do anything other than hurting or killing people, the DMV, road construction, publik skoolz, crime investigations, monetary policy etc that everyone is aware of. It's easy to make a simple 15 second spot that taps into people's deep unhappiness with the failure of public schools that they have built over a lifetime of experience.

And, more to the point, such an ad will actually be on topic.

Why make strawman arguments when the real one is there in front of you?!?

Fire, transfer or demote the producer. Seriously; anybody who authorized this has no business producing advocacy pieces.

Hungry Hippo|6.27.09 @ 1:34PM|#

Hippopotamuses are ill-tempered animals. Adult hippos are hostile toward crocodiles, which often live in the same pools and rivers as hippos. This is especially so when hippo calves are around. Nile crocodiles, along with Lions and Spotted Hyenas, may prey on young hippos.[45] Hippos are very aggressive towards humans and are often considered one of the most dangerous large animals in Africa.[46][47] Hippos attack humans and boats.[48]

To mark territory, hippos spin their tails while defecating to distribute their excrement over the greatest possible area.[49] Hippos also urinate backwards (are retromingent), likely for the same reason.[50]

Hippos rarely kill each other, even in territorial challenges. Usually a territorial bull and a challenging bachelor will stop fighting when it is clear that one hippo is stronger. When hippos become overpopulated, or when a habitat starts to shrink, bulls will sometimes attempt to kill infants; sometimes female hippos will kill the bulls to protect their infants, but neither behavior is common under normal conditions.[44] Some incidents of hippo cannibalism have been documented, but it is believed to be the behavior of distressed or sick hippos, and not healthy behavior.[5]

|6.27.09 @ 3:53PM|#

Seriously? The problem of health care is chronic conditions, long term trends and distortions in our medical labor markets, and costs of gray area medicine versus their effectiveness. Acute condition care is not really the problem. If you keep making this point, you will keep losing, because Americans who get sick over-seas know that the socialized systems work pretty well at handling those kind of problems.

How about this idea for a video, get a Canadian man in his late 50's to go to a local hospital and ask for a Colonoscopy on the government dime. Or find a bleeding-edge drug like Herceptin and try to get it approved. These are real issues that can be explained and touch on a lot of deep libertarian concerns. The problem of socialized medicine, like all socialism, is the broken window fallacy. They see the work going into repairing the window, and not in all the other things that could have been bought. Increased medical care availability for all and lower out of pocket expenses come either at the cost of sustainability (as in it becomes expensive) or restrictions on access (either the care is never invented, or it is denied for cost reasons). There is no free lunch, unless you have a super rich neighbor you can bum off of.

Polio Robot|6.27.09 @ 6:37PM|#

Where's the free market in our so called free market health care system?

Costs are shifted from the private sector to the public sector when policy holders get too old or are disabled.

Health insurance is run for profit and is beholden to the board of directors and the shareholders, not patients or the public at large.

The private insurance companies "cherry pick" the low risk people and bend over backwards to deny coverage on policy holders who run up a hospital bill which are deemed too expensive.

You aren't presented with a menu of prices for various proceedures, so you can compare prices between health care providers and go with a lower price.

All health care professionals are selected, trained and tested by quasi-governmental agencies so there are no other options for health care in the US.

Indigent people already get free or subsidized health care and the difference in costs are passed on to insured or cash paying customers.

You can't go to a pharmacy and pick up a bottle of Vicodin or Oxycontin without a prescription.

Whoever thinks we have anything close to a free market health care system needs to turn in his or her Libertarian credentials.

|6.27.09 @ 7:54PM|#

THe Prblems usa has are great many. for startsers therss some poeple ewho think tyhe ogvenremynt should NOT pay for health care. why is this?

WHY are these people so coldandHeartless?

Never, but never, trust a self-repossessed libertarian. They want to drink your bloods and steal you right! to health care!

I seen it.

|6.27.09 @ 7:55PM|#

and STFU about my "chronic" conditions! thats between me and JESUS!

The Angry Optimist|6.27.09 @ 8:03PM|#

Polio Robot - I don't see any of your complaints that seem particularly "free market" oriented either. For one...so what if the health insurance companies are beholden to their stockholders? That's how corporations work.

|6.27.09 @ 11:22PM|#

Try this thought experiment:

Imagine you want to buy a car. About how much would a car cost and how many places are there in town to buy one?

Now imagine you need an appendectomy. How much would one cost and where would you go for it?

There is far more money spent on health care than on automobiles, why is there so little competition in health care? With so much money to be made, why don't we see new hospitals springing up all over the place, advertising their low prices and great services?

Polio Robot|6.27.09 @ 11:41PM|#

"so what if the health insurance companies are beholden to their stockholders? That's how corporations work."

When the product is access to health care, the profit motive moves the emphasis from patient care to the bottom line in the form of denied or limited coverage at the expense of what may be best for the patient.

I would rather appeal my case to a government bureaucrat who has no profit motive than to an insurance bureaucrat who has a bonus on the line if he or she doesn't deny enough cases.

The profits from health care insurance are gained by taking money from policy holders and then trying to limit the amount of benefits they provide. This business model only works if you cherry pick the low risk at the expense of leaving higher risk people out.

Private medical insurance does not give discounts for getting older and becoming more responsible, like auto insurance does, because you are perceived as a higher risk.

I would have less of a problem with private medical insurance if the insurance executives (not agents) and CEO's didn't make more money than most doctors and surgeons.

Health insurance, as it exists today, is not about access to care, it is a wager that you are going to get sick and the insurance companies are betting that you won't and, if you do, they do everything in their power to make sure they don't pay.

Those fleets of corporate jets, high rise office buildings, and the corporate culture of those paragons of civic virtue, like AIG, ect. were built on the premiums of people who paid money in good faith and in many cases, got nothing in return when they needed help.

When the insurance companies tell someone who smokes or is fat is too much of a risk and charges for irresposible behaviour no one has a problem. When the insurance companies lost their asses in the recent economic meltdown, by being irresponsible with other people's money, did they take care of themselves or did they run to the government with their hands out? That is not good corporate behaviour.

Polio Robot|6.27.09 @ 11:51PM|#

"Now imagine you need an appendectomy. How much would one cost and where would you go for it?

There is far more money spent on health care than on automobiles, why is there so little competition in health care? With so much money to be made, why don't we see new hospitals springing up all over the place, advertising their low prices and great services?"

You can also grow your own food, go to the grocery store or a restaurant, but you can't prescribe medicine for yourself. You know when you are hungry and when you are sick. When you are hungry there are a variety of ways to not be hungry, not so many choices when you are sick or injured.

There is very little choice in our "free market" health care system.

Polio Robot|6.27.09 @ 11:56PM|#

Why is private "free market" medical insurance so afraid of a single payer system if they are so competitive and efficient?

I know I would go for the single payer option, screw those greedy bastards, let them get real jobs that produce tangible, valuable products.

john kjohn john|6.28.09 @ 5:47AM|#

"Try this thought experiment:

Imagine you want to buy a car. About how much would a car cost and how many places are there in town to buy one?

Now imagine you need an appendectomy. How much would one cost and where would you go for it?

There is far more money spent on health care than on automobiles, why is there so little competition in health care? With so much money to be made, why don't we see new hospitals springing up all over the place, advertising their low prices and great services?"

1. People go to doctors
2. Doctors tell them if they are sick or not
3. People must rely on the judgement of doctors to make choices for them
4. How the fuck would a layman like you or me know they need a appendectomy?? We rely on a system we can trust, with as little profit motive as possible so as to not push treatments on patients that they don't need.

BTW the video was retarded; British/canadian/european/japanese systems seem to work OK enough.

And Healthcare is not like buying a fucking car. It's a matter of life and death.

Xeones|6.28.09 @ 3:16PM|#

To mark territory, hippos spin their tails while defecating to distribute their excrement over the greatest possible area.[49] Hippos also urinate backwards (are retromingent), likely for the same reason.[50]

Someone needs to keep Congress and the administration away from the Discovery Channel, then.

Why is private "free market" medical insurance so afraid of a single payer system if they are so competitive and efficient?

I don't know, because only a moron would describe the partly-socialized cartel-ridden overregulated system we have now in the US as "free market."

British/canadian/european/japanese systems seem to work OK enough.

Sure, as long as you know nothing about them. Actually, the Canadian system isn't too bad -- it just involves a quick drive to Buffalo or Detroit.

|6.28.09 @ 3:51PM|#

Why is private "free market" medical insurance so afraid of a single payer system if they are so competitive and efficient?

That's kind of a stupid question since the answer should be obvious.

A single payer system involves by definition a, wait for it, a single payer, ie a monopoly with all competition forbidden by law.

This has nothing to do with the merits of either system, but it should not take a gigantic brain to understand why anyone would not want to be driven out of business.

Now, if you're asking why private medical insurance is afraid of competing with a government system, perhaps you might look for an answer from the lesson given by Citizens Property Insurance Corporation.

I'm sure everyone is just dying to have the national health insurance market get as truly fucked up as homeowner insurance is in Florida.

|6.28.09 @ 8:09PM|#

Please don't post videos like this; it makes out side look stupid.

john kjohn john|6.29.09 @ 12:54AM|#

"Sure, as long as you know nothing about them. Actually, the Canadian system isn't too bad -- it just involves a quick drive to Buffalo or Detroit."

Har har what I do know is that these countries' citizens' health are as good or better than Americans' health, except that they pay less. And Canada is NOT the only country with some form of socialized medicine. Canada obviously has its own problems, but at least it spends at lot less on heathcare than USA.

Here's a fun wiki article to read:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadian_healthcare

And Here's a fun article from the New Yorker about the topic too.
http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2009/06/01/090601fa_fact_gawande

My point is that there's no evidence that a free market system will provide superior healthcare. America will never try an experimental and potentially catastrophic system privatized system. There are other, tried and true methods out there.

zac|6.29.09 @ 1:20AM|#

What's so experimental about a private health care system? From what I understand, it's a lot closer to the system we had before insurance took over.

john kjohn john|6.29.09 @ 7:28PM|#

http://www.codebluenow.org/vital-signs/Health%20System%20Comparison%20Charts%205.30.2008.pdf

Look how shittacular USA's health system looks in comparison to these other fine universal healthcare systems. Yeah yeah the statistics may be skewed or wrong but please do provide some counter-evidence on how great private health care will be. I sure haven't heard of any.

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